Remaster Rogue


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

That's actually a perfect encapsulation of just how weak the Monk is right now as that example above relies on all of the following:

1) Investing every feat to try to focus exclusively on damage only
2) Is assumed to be landing 3 Strikes every round
3) Doesn't spend Actions moving
4) Has to multiclass into TWO different classes by level 9
5) Relies on Flanking to be provided for them
6) Uses a completely broken and since errata'd Feat that was not well thought out or tested before release

.... in order to... match a Base Dragon Barb who invested 0 Feats and only manages to keep pace for precisely 2 levels before they're left in the dust yet again.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

My experience with Monks is that they have the potential to trivialize encounters, because they are the martial most able to overcome situational advantages like terrain and ambush.

There was one encounter in particular which involved carrying a particular object through a 250 ft gauntlet with a fairly tough Will save required every round. (There were foes, but if you could avoid them, defeating them was unnecessary.) A monk with ki rush was the exact right tool for the job, and they got to feel awesome.

I feel like balancing a class by having them be 'solid, if swingy' in most circumstances, but situationally unstoppable is a fine place to be.


I think the biggest issue with the monk is how much more effective you are if you grab "some kind of bonus damage" from an archetype.

So "some sort of bonus damage ability in the class" feels like a thing that would help the monk a lot.

This could be as simple as "let Ki strikes either do nova damage for one round, or less damage for 1 minute".


Themetricsystem wrote:

That's actually a perfect encapsulation of just how weak the Monk is right now as that example above relies on all of the following:

1) Investing every feat to try to focus exclusively on damage only
2) Is assumed to be landing 3 Strikes every round
3) Doesn't spend Actions moving
4) Has to multiclass into TWO different classes by level 9
5) Relies on Flanking to be provided for them
6) Uses a completely broken and since errata'd Feat that was not well thought out or tested before release

.... in order to... match a Base Dragon Barb who invested 0 Feats and only manages to keep pace for precisely 2 levels before they're left in the dust yet again.

only two attacks per round. Assumed rotation is move, activate heaven's thunder/shield, ki strike (flurry). And 9-10+ means 9/10 through 20.

Liberty's Edge

I am really sorry to have derailed this Rogue thread on the Monk.

I hope people will use/create another thread for this topic.

I am happy that more Rogue builds are enjoyable now.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

... Do we know the monk is getting a major rework? I hadn't heard that.

Calliope5431 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Conversely, though, it is still more fun to play for certain players than any of those. ^-^ I don't tend to see a lot of dissatisfaction with people's play experiences despite the weaker offense.

Yup. It's a tad poorer offensively, but not egregiously so.

This is mostly because Pathfinder 2e's balance means you can be below the curve...but still contribute and feel worthwhile. It's really one of the best parts of the system.

Monks also do a lot of things better than other martials-- mobility being the obvious example, but having the free hands and spare actions to squeeze in lots of stuff like Battle Medicine is another. Whirling Throw is also maybe the best repositioning tool in the game.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I heavily dispute any assertion that the Monk, as it stands now (or even before the Remaster versions of other Classes dropped) is anywhere NEAR okay even if Ki Spells are HEAVILY buffed but I'll leave that discussion alone for now because it's a pointless one to make since we basically already have confirmation the Class is up for a SERIOUS rework.

The Monk is in PC2 and we also know that it is being reimagined as a Class that will have set class paths instead of them being a general grab-bag pick-a-Feat Class (like the Fighter is) due to the announcement explanation of the PC2 specifically stating that all of the Classes in it will each "contain multiple character paths" and because of that it follows that a TON of the Monk is going to necessarily be in for a huge shakeup as the entire Feat list will, at a minimum, have to be carved up into the distinct niches/flavors of Monk they create Paths for which will then in all likelihood be mutually exclusive or in the least require you have said path chosen at 1st level or by way of opting into taking/learning that path later on ala how Order Explorer works for Druid.

I don't think that necessarily means what you think it means for Monk about multiple paths.

It already has multiple paths.

You can go full in on Ki, you can go full in on multiple stances, you can pick one stance and some ki, you can go reasonably heavily into maneuvers, etc. That already exists. They can change literally nothing and it would still meet the "has multiple paths" statement.


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The Raven Black wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Rogue just keeps getting better. Someone at Paizo loves the rogue.
To be fair, they have many years of neglect to make up for...
True. It's like the rogue and fighter have traded places with the wizard.
Poor Monk.
Aww cmon now. I've never seen monk be in such a good place mechanic wise in any other system. You're spoiled for choice as a monk player

I agree completely.

It's just that I have never seen Monk being mentioned as the uberclass, like Fighter does (and now Rogue too it seems).

Whereas these three were always mentioned as the bottom classes in PF1. So, Monk was left a bit behind by the other two former underachievers.

The monk is a weird class. It's somewhere between a champion and a fighter. You build them differently than you would either of those classes.

It could use some minor upgrade to its offense, preferably an upgrade to Flurry of Blows to improve a class feature beyond what anyone else can take. Otherwise, the monk is a very interesting class to build.

I'd also like to see their speed changed from a status bonus. It's pretty sad their 30 foot status bonus to speed can be taken by a 1st level spell for the duration of a combat.

There are a few areas the monk should be focused on in a way their schtick isn't getting stolen easily.


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They can also be outclassed in speed by a Swashbuckler with a Jerkin of Liberation or anyone with a Prey Mutagen.

Sad days. Fortunately neither of those are Common and are from APs.


Guntermench wrote:

I don't think that necessarily means what you think it means for Monk about multiple paths.

It already has multiple paths.

You can go full in on Ki, you can go full in on multiple stances, you can pick one stance and some ki, you can go reasonably heavily into maneuvers, etc. That already exists. They can change literally nothing and it would still meet the "has multiple paths" statement.

One issue I have with the monk is that all the higher-level ki feats require that you already have ki spells. That means you need to take Ki Strike or Ki Rush at level 1, but level 1 is also where most of the stances are. So if you want both ki and a stance for a damage boost, you either need to downgrade a feat at level 2 to 1, or play a human for the extra level 1 class feat. That seems like an issue to me.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

A primary Ki ability could be put in the chassis since focus abilities are getting more emphasis now.


damage is the wrong focus for even str monk

just take mixed maneuver at level 8 and hope doesn't run into enemy immune to trip


roquepo wrote:
Fort save is most likely a mistake, will surely be errata'd.

Wait, they need to errata the thing before it comes out but after it has been printed?

This is off to a great start.


The Raven Black wrote:

I am really sorry to have derailed this Rogue thread on the Monk.

I hope people will use/create another thread for this topic.

I am happy that more Rogue builds are enjoyable now.

It is a tradition.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Fort save is most likely a mistake, will surely be errata'd.

Wait, they need to errata the thing before it comes out but after it has been printed?

This is off to a great start.

That's basically how all errata works, isn't it? It's just mistakes that didn't get caught before the book was printed. It isn't really new to the remaster.


I personally really like the Rogue buffs. I especially like the Gang Up change, as before you often didn't want to use it because of teamplay reasons, which felt bad. Using it regularly encouraged selfishness and not helping your teammates flank as well. Now you don't have to choose.

What I'm scratching my head at is that they basically mostly buffed the stuff that was already strong while leaving the weaker stuff completely alone. Seems a bit backwards to me.


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I'm a little sad to see that the Eldritch Trickster racket wasn't included and that even the Minor Magic and Magical Trickster feats are gone.


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Gisher wrote:
I'm a little sad to see that the Eldritch Trickster racket wasn't included and that even the Minor Magic and Magical Trickster feats are gone.

I highly suspect they are probably are moving those feats into a hyphotetical eldritch trickster class archetype.


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Been thinking about jousting and ruffian together lately. A lance has jousting d6, that would make it eligible for sneak attack. You can trigger gang up with your mount too and being able to carry a shield would make you very durable.

I also looked into the leshy feat that gives reach and lowers your damage die by 1 step, but most d8 2 handed weapons either have reach or finesse, making it kind of redundant. 3 section naginata is the only one I've seen that might be worth it for that combo (requires both human and leshy feats, though, so a bit convoluted).


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Calliope5431 wrote:
Obviously it's better than alchemist or investigator though. Probably swashbuckler too. But it's way below fighter, rogue, or thaumaturge.

Monk is a complex class (handedness and great action economy are hard to benefit from properly), Fighter is a simple class. You will never manage to balance them with one another without changing their complexity first. There'll always be one that is considered better than the other.

I remember Exocist putting the Monk as a Tier A class, and I rather agree with him: from a powergamer point of view, the Monk looks fine.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
exequiel759 wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm a little sad to see that the Eldritch Trickster racket wasn't included and that even the Minor Magic and Magical Trickster feats are gone.
I highly suspect they are probably are moving those feats into a hyphotetical eldritch trickster class archetype.

Or they just want to encourage people to take the existing spellcasting archetypes, which are often better anyways. I see it as the removal of trap options.


Ravingdork wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm a little sad to see that the Eldritch Trickster racket wasn't included and that even the Minor Magic and Magical Trickster feats are gone.
I highly suspect they are probably are moving those feats into a hyphotetical eldritch trickster class archetype.
Or they just want to encourage people to take the existing spellcasting archetypes, which are often better anyways. I see it as the removal of trap options.

I highly doubt it because Magical Trickster would be an option that someone would want to pick up if they take a spellcasting archetype (or hell, if you are yourself a caster and take Rogue Dedication, Magical Trickster, and Analyze Weakness they can increase their damage by 3d6).

I also don't think Paizo would want to remove a popular option because even when it's clearly worse than literally every other option it's still a popular option among players because the magical rogue has been always popular.


Ravingdork wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm a little sad to see that the Eldritch Trickster racket wasn't included and that even the Minor Magic and Magical Trickster feats are gone.
I highly suspect they are probably are moving those feats into a hyphotetical eldritch trickster class archetype.
Or they just want to encourage people to take the existing spellcasting archetypes, which are often better anyways. I see it as the removal of trap options.

Yeah trickster is just not that good mechanically. There are better ways to build "rogue who casts"


So the day 1 errata just hit and Rogues are still getting success to crit success on fortitude saves. Hmmm....

Ngl, that one flying under the radar and the random Tempest Surge nerf (a very unclear nerf on top of that) left me completely puzzled.

Shadow Lodge

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So, just checking my reading, but now a ruffian rogue can sneak attack with bombs as long as the damage die is d6, correct? What if its 2d6? Seems like it should as the die size is still d6... My ruffian was looking at multi-classing to fighter or something to be able to throw dread ampules if needed.


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roquepo wrote:

Been thinking about jousting and ruffian together lately. A lance has jousting d6, that would make it eligible for sneak attack. You can trigger gang up with your mount too and being able to carry a shield would make you very durable.

I also looked into the leshy feat that gives reach and lowers your damage die by 1 step, but most d8 2 handed weapons either have reach or finesse, making it kind of redundant. 3 section naginata is the only one I've seen that might be worth it for that combo (requires both human and leshy feats, though, so a bit convoluted).

Still no reach on horsey though. But yes, you could do that although i would probably prefer a longspear that is usable when the horse is not avaiable. If you want a shield i would just usa an asp coil


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
So, just checking my reading, but now a ruffian rogue can sneak attack with bombs as long as the damage die is d6, correct? What if its 2d6? Seems like it should as the die size is still d6... My ruffian was looking at multi-classing to fighter or something to be able to throw dread ampules if needed.

IMO you can because the 2d6 is equivalent to a Strike weapon its not a greater dice size. Yet if you want to use precision damage with bombs the investigator still the safe source.


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
So, just checking my reading, but now a ruffian rogue can sneak attack with bombs as long as the damage die is d6, correct? What if its 2d6? Seems like it should as the die size is still d6... My ruffian was looking at multi-classing to fighter or something to be able to throw dread ampules if needed.

Correct. All the ability cares about is die size (d6 maximum), the number of dice or added damage are completely irrelevant.


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roquepo wrote:

So the day 1 errata just hit and Rogues are still getting success to crit success on fortitude saves. Hmmm....

Ngl, that one flying under the radar and the random Tempest Surge nerf (a very unclear nerf on top of that) left me completely puzzled.

Yeah both of those things are really random and weird.

And neither of them was something people were clamoring for or thought needed to happen. I guess people sometimes say tempest surge is good, but it's not because of the random crit fail effects lol


Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:

So the day 1 errata just hit and Rogues are still getting success to crit success on fortitude saves. Hmmm....

Ngl, that one flying under the radar and the random Tempest Surge nerf (a very unclear nerf on top of that) left me completely puzzled.

Yeah both of those things are really random and weird.

And neither of them was something people were clamoring for or thought needed to happen. I guess people sometimes say tempest surge is good, but it's not because of the random crit fail effects lol

Worst part is that despite Tempest Surge being nerfed due to crit failures, the spell doesn't even have a specific crit fail effect, persistent happens on failure.

So the errata needs an errata it seems.


Updraft now reigns as uncontested focus spell champ.


Kinda lame imo how you can't do sneak attack with any martial weapon that does more than a d6? Really makes most of them not so useful. Why not a reduction in sneak attack dice to a d4 or something?


roquepo wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:

So the day 1 errata just hit and Rogues are still getting success to crit success on fortitude saves. Hmmm....

Ngl, that one flying under the radar and the random Tempest Surge nerf (a very unclear nerf on top of that) left me completely puzzled.

Yeah both of those things are really random and weird.

And neither of them was something people were clamoring for or thought needed to happen. I guess people sometimes say tempest surge is good, but it's not because of the random crit fail effects lol

Worst part is that despite Tempest Surge being nerfed due to crit failures, the spell doesn't even have a specific crit fail effect, persistent happens on failure.

So the errata needs an errata it seems.

Ah... Wow, that's true. It literally doesn't matter whether the failure is critical apart from the inital damage. The debuff and persistent were the same, as persistent wasn't part of the normal effect at all.


Oni Shogun wrote:
Kinda lame imo how you can't do sneak attack with any martial weapon that does more than a d6? Really makes most of them not so useful. Why not a reduction in sneak attack dice to a d4 or something?

Well, here is what Ruffian says Premaster:

Ruffian wrote:
You don't gain these benefits if the weapon has a damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its damage die size).

So, if they nerfed Ruffian to only being D6, that is a serious drawback to the racket, since the only way to play Ruffian before was with a Longspear, and now even that isn't available anymore.

Unless it is D8 Simple/D6 Martial, which seems awfully arbitrary.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.


Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.

What about d8 martial weapons?

Sovereign Court

Errenor wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:

So the day 1 errata just hit and Rogues are still getting success to crit success on fortitude saves. Hmmm....

Ngl, that one flying under the radar and the random Tempest Surge nerf (a very unclear nerf on top of that) left me completely puzzled.

Yeah both of those things are really random and weird.

And neither of them was something people were clamoring for or thought needed to happen. I guess people sometimes say tempest surge is good, but it's not because of the random crit fail effects lol

Worst part is that despite Tempest Surge being nerfed due to crit failures, the spell doesn't even have a specific crit fail effect, persistent happens on failure.

So the errata needs an errata it seems.

Ah... Wow, that's true. It literally doesn't matter whether the failure is critical apart from the inital damage. The debuff and persistent were the same, as persistent wasn't part of the normal effect at all.

Persistent damage doubling on a crit failure, on top of the spell doing double damage, was likely the reason it got nerf'd.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?

no. It is D6 martial weapons or D8 simple. Martial weapons get a whole lot more traits.


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Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?
no. It is D6 martial weapons or D8 simple. Martial weapons get a whole lot more traits.

They get maybe one more trait on average if we compare them to similar items, and a lot of them aren't worth losing one point of damage per dice on average.

Ruffian got shafted pretty badly here.


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Ruffian can still use any martial or advanced weapons with agile/finesse. It's just those without that that have the dice limits.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?
no. It is D6 martial weapons or D8 simple. Martial weapons get a whole lot more traits.

They get maybe one more trait on average if we compare them to similar items, and a lot of them aren't worth losing one point of damage per dice on average.

Ruffian got shafted pretty badly here.

They can also use advanced d6 weapons for what it's worth.

But really, how are they getting shafted when this is just a straight buff compared to before? There aren't a lot of additional weapons that are worth taking (it's pretty much asp coil and breaching pike for that 1h reach), but still.


Kyrand wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Ah... Wow, that's true. It literally doesn't matter whether the failure is critical apart from the inital damage. The debuff and persistent were the same, as persistent wasn't part of the normal effect at all.
Persistent damage doubling on a crit failure, on top of the spell doing double damage, was likely the reason it got nerf'd.

It does not double. Effects which exist only on failures and have no critical failure lines don't double on criticals. For this spell it's even explicit that only initial instant damage is basic save.

Sovereign Court

Errenor wrote:
Kyrand wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Ah... Wow, that's true. It literally doesn't matter whether the failure is critical apart from the inital damage. The debuff and persistent were the same, as persistent wasn't part of the normal effect at all.
Persistent damage doubling on a crit failure, on top of the spell doing double damage, was likely the reason it got nerf'd.
It does not double. Effects which exist only on failures and have no critical failure lines don't double on criticals. For this spell it's even explicit that only initial instant damage is basic save.

Good catch, I misread the damage as part of the base effect.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?
no. It is D6 martial weapons or D8 simple. Martial weapons get a whole lot more traits.

They get maybe one more trait on average if we compare them to similar items, and a lot of them aren't worth losing one point of damage per dice on average.

Ruffian got shafted pretty badly here.

If your previous perspective was that the only viable Ruffian build was a long spear build, then the subclass will function exactly the same for you. I guess you will just be jealous of the Thief rogues using D8 monk stance attacks, but remember they are all using 2 feats and losing an action to make it work.


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Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
So, just checking my reading, but now a ruffian rogue can sneak attack with bombs as long as the damage die is d6, correct? What if its 2d6? Seems like it should as the die size is still d6... My ruffian was looking at multi-classing to fighter or something to be able to throw dread ampules if needed.

To my understanding, any Rogue can sneak attack with bombs, regardless of die size. Sneak attack states:

Quote:
When your enemy can’t properly defend itself, you take advantage to deal extra damage. If you Strike a creature that has the off-guard condition (page 445) with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.

Throwing a bomb is a ranged weapon attack, so it qualifies for sneak attack regardless of how much damage the bomb deals. The limit on damage die sizes in the Ruffian racket is irrelevant, because it only applies to weapons that don't qualify for sneak attack using the criteria in the base feature.

Incidentally, shooting a Barricade Buster is also a ranged weapon attack. If you dream of rolling D10s, master the art of Unconventional Weaponry and recruit a friendly Monk, Barbarian or Fighter to grapple enemies, then strike them precisely from 20-40 feet away. This bad boy may only hold 8 rounds, but if an enemy isn't dead after eight shots, you've got bigger problems.


Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?
no. It is D6 martial weapons or D8 simple. Martial weapons get a whole lot more traits.

They get maybe one more trait on average if we compare them to similar items, and a lot of them aren't worth losing one point of damage per dice on average.

Ruffian got shafted pretty badly here.

If your previous perspective was that the only viable Ruffian build was a long spear build, then the subclass will function exactly the same for you. I guess you will just be jealous of the Thief rogues using D8 monk stance attacks, but remember they are all using 2 feats and losing an action to make it work.

To be fair, the only difference between Thief and Ruffian in this case is the SADness, since I am confident a Ruffian Monk could still pick up a D8 stance feat and roll with it (or even D6 if we have to be semantic about it). The big drawback is having to invest in both high Dexterity as well as Strength, since you won't have any armor to utilize the stance with.

My complaint is more along the lines of the factor that the subclass with the most capacity to utilize the full martial proficiency repertoire is basically even less inclined to do so compared to other more restrictive subclasses. Plenty of options have opened up for the Thief Rogue. Barely anything has opened up for the Ruffian.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am confident a Ruffian Monk could still pick up a D8 stance feat and roll with it (or even D6 if we have to be semantic about it). The big drawback is having to invest in both high Dexterity as well as Strength, since you won't have any armor to utilize the stance with.

Pre-remaster at least, Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance are compatible with armor.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am confident a Ruffian Monk could still pick up a D8 stance feat and roll with it (or even D6 if we have to be semantic about it). The big drawback is having to invest in both high Dexterity as well as Strength, since you won't have any armor to utilize the stance with.
Pre-remaster at least, Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance are compatible with armor.

...and both of them wind up being excellent with enough feat support, for those who have some charisma to work with. Gorilla's standard expansion feat gives you a strike+intimidate flourish, and Stumbling Stance is finesse/agile/backstabber, gives a bonus on feinting, and has an expansion feat that (once you have FoB) will give you a free feint on FoB that applies to both attacks. Oh, and that also lets you take Stunning Fist, if you like, to get even more juice out of that single action.

Now, the entire setup for stumbling both takes a while to assemble and is incredibly hungry in class feats if you don't start out as a monk. (2,4,10,12,14 rather than 1,2,6) but the results are pretty nice. If you want to go for Gorilla Stance, you're probably better off going Martial Artist instead. It means that you get your enhancement feat at 8 rather than 12, and you don't need to have both Str 14 and Dex 14


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Oni Shogun wrote:
Kinda lame imo how you can't do sneak attack with any martial weapon that does more than a d6? Really makes most of them not so useful. Why not a reduction in sneak attack dice to a d4 or something?

You honestly got me thinking about a homebrew to allow ruffians to sneak attack with any weapons but for every die above d8 with simple weapons or d6 with martial and advanced weapons they would reduce their sneak attack die. For example, a martial d8 weapon would deal d4 sneak attack, while a martial d10 or d12 weapon would deal 1 point of sneak attack damage.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Unicore wrote:
The ruffian can still use simple d8 weapons.
What about d8 martial weapons?

It is d6 martial weapons if they are not agile or finesse. So Elven Curve Blade still works. Just can't pick up a longsword or greatsword and go to town.

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