What about D8 one handed
Not exactly satisfying when the base class has weapons like the Dueling spear and the Elven Curve Blade that they can just pick up and use: feels bad to see a feature downgrade you.
D8 except reach?
Possible but, IMO, feels really arbitrary. It might be better to restrict polearms: it's easier to stomach 'polearms are too complicated to sneak attack with' that 'this damage dice of reach is bad'.
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Do you think they should have just invalidated the longspear as a choice for Ruffians? Because that's what would have happened if they got martial d8 weapons.
Do you have similar concerns over other classes that don't like using longspears (i.e. nearly all of them)? Or is there a specific reason you think longspears are central to the Ruffian Rogue fantasy that's unfulfilled by any other weapon in the game?
I genuinely do not see what the obsession is with giving Ruffians access to outright stronger weapons than all the other Rogue rackets.
It's more just a curiosity with this specific attachment people have developed. Most posts have just been about trading one martial weapon for another so 'stronger' doesn't seem like the right word either.
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Hmm... I've been thinking about it, and it actually makes perfect sense to limit Ruffians to simple d8/martial d6... if the intent was to increase versatility but not power; it's a sidegrade, not an upgrade. If we assume that the Longspear Ruffian was their balancing point, then that puts the Ruffian's optimal offensive weapon at a d8 weapon with [Reach] and no other traits. Allowing d6 martial weapons gives them access to a wider selection of traited weapons, which in turn allows them to be built in different ways, all of which are balanced out by doing slightly less damage than the vanilla longspear (some of these other ways may, yes, be traps, but may be preferable nonetheless depending on the character's intended personality and background).
The first thing of note is that it gives you a much wider pool of weapons to choose from, which in turn also gives you a much wider pool of weapon traits to choose from. Some of these are traps for a Rogue, yes, but that's okay; PF2's math is tight enough that choosing, say, a [Sweep] weapon over a [Reach] one isn't enough to break your character. (And of course, you can always carry both, and choose which one you want for any given situation! Sometimes spreading the damage a bit can be useful, after all, if you've got a couple nearly-dead enemies clustered together.) Some of them give you access to maneuver traits, which can be pretty nifty for an Athletics specialist Ruffian. And probably most significantly, some of them have have both [Reach] and other traits, allowing you to sacrifice a little bit of damage to enable other tactics without juggling weapons if that's your jam.
And this pool-widening, in turn, lines up with how weapons are balanced: You can choose between a higher damage die with minimal features, or drop the die down a bit to buy more features for your weapon. You get your longspear if you want to build for damage, you can knock the damage die down to a d6 if you want more versatility, and you can knock it down to a d4 if your game's as horny as Calistria if you want to add [Nonlethal] too. Everything's a tradeoff; nothing outright surpasses or overshadows the longspear, preserving the versatility-vs.-power balancing that the game applies to weapons as a whole. In effect, the rule is the game's way of acknowledging that [Reach] really is worth a whole damage die size increase in & of itself for the Ruffian. (Conversely, if d8 martial weapons are allowed, then the Ruffian gains access to both the lance and the injection spear, both of which are direct upgrades to the longspear. Not to mention all the other d8 weapons which have both [Reach] and other traits.)
Is it the best way to do this? No, not at all; it's heavy-handed and rather clumsy, from a purely mechanical design perspective, and most of the best non-longspear options were already available thanks to being [Finesse] and/or [Agile]. But it is both effective and, perhaps more importantly, quick. Locking out d8+ martial weapons provides an ironclad guarantee that the Ruffian's raw power maxes out at a d8 [Reach] weapon with no other traits, unless a stronger simple weapon is released (which is unlikely to happen), without having to think about whether any specific martial d8s are or aren't viable; it makes eyeballing weapon balance a little bit quicker, and a little bit easier.
Okay, but what is the issue of implementing an upgrade to the subclass when every other subclass has received one? I don't think Ruffian was really any stronger than Thief to warrant it not being able to receive an upgrade of some sort; being MAD is punishment enough. And it's not like it goes against the subclass identity to permit D8 martial weapons either, since its whole schtick is "you don't really care much about being some dexterous cad, you're just some big brutish brigand who wants to bash/stab/cut people in the face." And even from a balance perspective, the biggest jump from a Longspear is to a Glaive, which gets Deadly D8 (which only triggers on a critical hit) and Forceful (which only triggers when making multiple attacks in a round, a generally bad tactic unless fighting mooks), so the idea that it's permitting a weapon that's too strong seems absurd (especially given its worse critical specialization).
A wider pool of unused weapons isn't really helpful to the class because it's basically bloat for the sake of bloat. I could pick up all of these other D6 martial weapons, like Hatchets and Morningstars and what-have-you, but there isn't a whole lot of parity between these options, since most all of them are (unsurprisingly) outclassed by the Longspear, both by damage and by trait relevance. I mean, sure, this is a conservative approach, both because the Remaster isn't meant to significantly change things (even though it has in some aspects), and because it's clear that Rogues were meant to be limited to D6 given that their previous Martial proficiencies were all D6 weapons, but honestly, I do not see an issue with a Ruffian walking around with a Glaive while a Thief is walking around with an Elven Branched Spear, these options are pretty well balanced amongst each other. Except, Ruffian doesn't get access to utilize a Glaive because...reasons. So they are ultimately forced to an "inferior" weapon. Even something as simple as "I can't use a Longsword instead of a Shortsword" seems quite arbitrary to me.
Another issue I have with this is that we already have restrictions based on the Sneak Attack feature: The weapon must be an Agile or Finesse weapon (if melee, unarmed, or thrown), or must be a ranged weapon (which is plenty hard enough to apply with outside of certain tactics or feats). All the Ruffian does is essentially change that restriction to instead be based on die size, which isn't a complaint in and of itself, but when it's done arbitrarily like this, it's not exactly a feelsgood moment when other subclasses had a lot more tantalizing weapon opportunities open up to them by comparison. It would be like if there was a spellcasting subclass that said you have access to any damaging spell across any tradition, but could only prepare damaging spells if all of its damage dice are D10s or D12s.
I mean, yes, it's quick, and consistent with their previous proficiency list, but I don't think it's necessarily an appropriate change. Sure, Longspear Ruffian isn't the only way to play the subclass, which seems to be where all of the complaints are stemming from, but it's honestly more than that, with Longspear Ruffian essentially being the peak form of the subclass, and the complaints range from "I can use a lance while mounted, but not unmounted," to "I can use a smaller axe like a Hatchet, but not a slightly bigger axe like a Battle Axe," to which point you might as well just ignore the subclass option and stick with the same weapons as every other subclass.
Why should the subclass where their passive is that they can sneak attack with more types of weapons be able to use better weapons to sneak attack with
More does not necessarily have to equal all. Also, separating the sneak attack with simple from the str primary attribute and medium armor is sort of missing the forest for the longspears.
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In fairness, one of the reason why d8 finesse weapons aren't an issue is that finesse eats up a huge portion of the trait budget, so those weapons are (in theory) about on par with d8 simple weapons without finesse trait-wise.
Well, in theory, anyway.
Okay, but then why allow Ruffians to use non-finesse weapons if we're still going to balance them around the power level of finesse weapons? It would be easier and quicker to just give them the same limitations as any other subclass, but just give them access to Medium armor and a set of feats.
Okay, but then why allow Ruffians to use non-finesse weapons if we're still going to balance them around the power level of finesse weapons? It would be easier and quicker to just give them the same limitations as any other subclass, but just give them access to Medium armor and a set of feats.In fairness, one of the reason why d8 finesse weapons aren't an issue is that finesse eats up a huge portion of the trait budget, so those weapons are (in theory) about on par with d8 simple weapons without finesse trait-wise.
Well, in theory, anyway.
IMO, I'm thinking it's bc ruffian gets the martial weapon space opened up to it to get access to more traits on one weapon (not access to new traits just access to more traits at once) without raising its damage ceiling or jumpinh through ancestry/general feat hoops
IMO, I'm thinking it's bc ruffian gets the martial weapon space opened up to it to get access to more traits on one weapon (not access to new traits just access to more traits at once) without raising its damage ceiling or jumpinh through ancestry/general feat hoopsOkay, but then why allow Ruffians to use non-finesse weapons if we're still going to balance them around the power level of finesse weapons? It would be easier and quicker to just give them the same limitations as any other subclass, but just give them access to Medium armor and a set of feats.In fairness, one of the reason why d8 finesse weapons aren't an issue is that finesse eats up a huge portion of the trait budget, so those weapons are (in theory) about on par with d8 simple weapons without finesse trait-wise.
Well, in theory, anyway.
So does every other subclass, simply because martial weapons have a higher budget than simple weapons. Doesn't really explain why Ruffian needs an arbitrary dice limitation, or even an assumption that Ruffians always go for weapons with more traits to require a reduction in traits, especially since the Ruffian ceiling has only ever really needed one trait (Reach).
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Were people expecting the addition of martial weapons to suddenly allow backstabbing maul ruffians? The ruffian was getting some additional weapon proficiencies as a result of all rogues getting new weapon proficiencies. It was either going to mean almost nothing (proficiency in a small handful of new agile weapons, or need some kind of change. “What change can we make without raising the ceiling of the subclass?” Was the question that is very clearly answered by this change.
This time I agree completely with Unicore. For some reason some people expected that the addition of martial weapons would add precision damage to full big martial weapons.
Honestly I still think that limit to d6 weapons is a overcare yet you can still pick a Tricky Pick to do a good amount of damage so still fine to me.
* A doubt Fatal d10 breaks the dice size limit?
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Picks aren't a great idea, fatal makes you lose sneak attack.
So the ideal is to keep into deadly
I'm a fan of the Urumi for the Ruffian (access by being from Vudra or Jalmeray). It's d6 martial, but deadly d10.
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This time I agree completely with Unicore. For some reason some people expected that the addition of martial weapons would add precision damage to full big martial weapons.
No, people didn't expect to use greatswords to sneak attack with the ruffian, but at least expected the ruffian to be somewhat consistent. It doesn't make sense to limit the martial / advanced to d6 when the the only thing that ruffians are getting by increasing the limit to d8 are pretty much longspears with some extra traits, which I would consider buffs in the same vein of the scoundrel and thief rackets got (sorry mastermind). In fact, the best reach weapon in the game, the flickmace, is available to ruffians as is so why limit stuff like the fauchard?
This discussion already happened earlier, but there isn't a single martial or advanced d8 weapon that would be disruptive enough to justify ruffians staying with a d6 limit, with the only exception being leshys with d10 weapons but if those are disruptive enough then either nerf that leshy feat or add a line saying that it doesn't apply to the ruffian's benefit.
One of the basic reasons to bar polearms from ruffians is "it's hard to be sneaky carrying a 7'pole."
Of all the various "it's just long, by design" weapons the easiest one to pass off as something else is the spear since it's got the least ostentatious metal part and it's a precise weapon (unlike, say, a bardiche). But honestly I wouldn't be adverse to not being able to sneak attack with spears either.
It would be hard coming up with a bit of text that excludes effects like Grasping Reach but does not touch Jousting, which is one of the most relevant and interesting additions we had to the Ruffian pool.
Regardless, yes, martial d8 weapons with no further modifications would have been mostly fine as far as we know (at least no one has mentioned any worrying interactions thus far). Advanced is the only one I think should be limited to d6 as it is, the Nodachi would have been a bit too good as well.
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One of the basic reasons to bar polearms from ruffians is "it's hard to be sneaky carrying a 7'pole."
Of all the various "it's just long, by design" weapons the easiest one to pass off as something else is the spear since it's got the least ostentatious metal part and it's a precise weapon (unlike, say, a bardiche). But honestly I wouldn't be adverse to not being able to sneak attack with spears either.
I mean, Sneak Attack in and of itself is completely artificial nonsense, even in-universe. Your enemy not seeing the attack coming matters only for hitting, it has nothing to do with the damage you cause. Weakpoints are already represented by AC and critical hits.
Neither has the enemy being off-guard necessarily have anything to do with sneaking, as the system frequently demonstrates.
Therefore, what we allow or don't allow is almost completely arbitrary. It doesn't have to be a "sneaky" weapon as such. Every Rogue can sneak attack with a backpack ballista and could even do so with a cannon, if those made attack rolls. The iconic rapier is anything but subtle either. With a polearm, you can at least pose as a guard or something.
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One of the basic reasons to bar polearms from ruffians is "it's hard to be sneaky carrying a 7'pole."
Of all the various "it's just long, by design" weapons the easiest one to pass off as something else is the spear since it's got the least ostentatious metal part and it's a precise weapon (unlike, say, a bardiche). But honestly I wouldn't be adverse to not being able to sneak attack with spears either.
I mean, once the game says it's cool to sneak attack with a longspear, Breaching Pike, Dancer's Spear, Elven Branched Spear, Lancer and mounted lance... I can't really take "it's hard to be sneaky carrying a 7'pole" seriously: especially noting the Elven Branched Spear as NOT sneaky as it's pretty ostentatious and doesn't seem any more precise than a bardiche.
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Just played a session of agents of Edgewatch with the remastered rogue and Gang Up is ridiculously broken in the best way. The ruffian rogue with a reach weapon effectively made the entire cohort of enemies that surrounded us, off-guard. Of course this made them all try to focus him down much to the enjoyment of the shield of reckoning, quick block paladin. That feat is such a great pickup on any rogue and I personally feel like it can really help with the "team tactics" push of 2e.
This time I agree completely with Unicore. For some reason some people expected that the addition of martial weapons would add precision damage to full big martial weapons.No, people didn't expect to use greatswords to sneak attack with the ruffian, but at least expected the ruffian to be somewhat consistent. It doesn't make sense to limit the martial / advanced to d6 when the the only thing that ruffians are getting by increasing the limit to d8 are pretty much longspears with some extra traits, which I would consider buffs in the same vein of the scoundrel and thief rackets got (sorry mastermind). In fact, the best reach weapon in the game, the flickmace, is available to ruffians as is so why limit stuff like the fauchard?
This discussion already happened earlier, but there isn't a single martial or advanced d8 weapon that would be disruptive enough to justify ruffians staying with a d6 limit, with the only exception being leshys with d10 weapons but if those are disruptive enough then either nerf that leshy feat or add a line saying that it doesn't apply to the ruffian's benefit.
The point that I agree with you is that limit to d6 seen to be an overcare by designers once that we already have some finesse d8 weapons (with exception of Aldori Dueling Sword most of them are 2-handed but this usually isn't a big thing for a rogue) or d6 Backstabber weapons like Dogslicer that for rogues are usually equivalent to d8 weapons, that already works for any rogue (including allowing thieves to add dex to dmg). Yet for this same reason I also don't consider this a big problem.
My real problem with Rufian is more about that the rogue chassis is strongly dex focused and this makes it a bit subpar when you make a str based rogue with a medium armor.
About flickmace being the best reach weapon this is only valid when we talk about characters that uses shields or for some reason need a free-hand outside this isn't soo much better than a d10 reach 2-handed weapon.
It would be hard coming up with a bit of text that excludes effects like Grasping Reach but does not touch Jousting, which is one of the most relevant and interesting additions we had to the Ruffian pool.
There's some examples I can come up with to "patch" this. You could modify the ruffian's benefit into this:
(Apply any traits that alter the damage die size first.)
...or add the following line to Grasping Reach:
This doesn't change the weapon's damage die for the purpose of other effects.
This ruffian change would pretty much disallow Grasping Reach for working since it calls out traits specifically, which keeps jousting and fatal working as intended but not other effects. If you want to be more specific you could change the wording into "Apply any traits that alter the damage die size first, but not other effects." The Grasping Reach change is pretty straightforward as well and also removes other possible future consequences that Paizo couldn't forsee when making that feat.
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Regardless, yes, martial d8 weapons with no further modifications would have been mostly fine as far as we know (at least no one has mentioned any worrying interactions thus far). Advanced is the only one I think should be limited to d6 as it is, the Nodachi would have been a bit too good as well.
I disagree. Pre remaster sometimes characters went through considerable hoops to just get a base d8 damage.
Forget all the exotic stuff. Do you really want a ruffian rogue to be able to effectively use longsword/shield out of the box at level 1? I know that I don't.
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Is there a particular reason why you're worried about ruffians with longswords specifically?
You can do that already with thief and an Aldori dueling sword. And also get free boost to a stat of your choice.
If anything, the only somewhat worrying martial weapon would be the Glaive, but with how most optimized Rogues do damage, it would just be a slight upgrade over the Longspear (Forceful needs several hits to have a significant chance of lowering the time to kill and most rogues only do no MAP attacks past a certain level, so it is just Deadly d8 in practice).
(Apply any traits that alter the damage die size first.)
Guess this could be a good direction for a homebrew.
"You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple or martial weapon with a damage die equal or lower than a d8, or any advanced with a damage die equal or lower than a d6. Traits that reduce a weapon damage die may make a weapon apply sneak attack damage when it normally wouldn't, but other effects that reduce a weapon damage die cannot make a weapon with a natural higher damage die deal sneak attack damage[...]"
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Regardless, yes, martial d8 weapons with no further modifications would have been mostly fine as far as we know (at least no one has mentioned any worrying interactions thus far). Advanced is the only one I think should be limited to d6 as it is, the Nodachi would have been a bit too good as well.I disagree. Pre remaster sometimes characters went through considerable hoops to just get a base d8 damage.
Forget all the exotic stuff. Do you really want a ruffian rogue to be able to effectively use longsword/shield out of the box at level 1? I know that I don't.
So you have a problem with ruffians using a longsword to sneak attack but not with ruffians using finesse longsword to sneak attack? Because that's already the case.
It would be hard coming up with a bit of text that excludes effects like Grasping Reach but does not touch Jousting, which is one of the most relevant and interesting additions we had to the Ruffian pool.
Regardless, yes, martial d8 weapons with no further modifications would have been mostly fine as far as we know (at least no one has mentioned any worrying interactions thus far). Advanced is the only one I think should be limited to d6 as it is, the Nodachi would have been a bit too good as well.
It's simple to fix, really; just put in a clause that says that it is tracked after die size increases and before die size increases, meaning you can't increase it past the die size (which already works anyway), nor decrease it to the appropriate die size (which prevents shenanigans).
Also, Advanced weapons are already limited by requiring other feats, access, and scaling. Saying it needs to be nerfed further when it already has a separate associated cost with it is absurd, especially when Advanced weapons are already in the "can basically be removed from the game and it will play exactly the same as before" category, not unlike what they were last edition.
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Personally I'd be fine with the Ruffian non simple d6 restriction if all rogues had a non simple d6 restriction.
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Is there a particular reason why you're worried about ruffians with longswords specifically?
Because it's a power boost from before remaster which I don't think the rogue needs.
Sure, pre remaster you can jump through considerable hoops with an opportunity cost to get a D8 attack with a one handed weapon but a newcomer to the game armed with only the core rulebook couldn't get there.
Newcomer used rapier and/or shortsword. Or a longspear if a ruffian.
And one of the trade-offs for doing lots of damage with a longspear and all those skills was that a rogue was comparatively fragile.
I know that I'd prefer a longsword/shield rogue to a longspear rogue at least until gang up kicks in or Reactionary Attack. Especially with shield block the durability compensates for the lack of reach.
And obviously the longsword is only the floor of what can be achieved with a martial D8 weapon. I chose it for my example precisely because it is NOT anywhere near the best option but still has potential issues.
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We've already had this discussion.
There isn't a single d8 martial or advanced weapon that would give ruffians anything that they didn't have already or that can be achieved with the d6 limit. The problem doesn't come from those d8 weapons but from other effects that would allow ruffians to have access to other weapons they shouldn't.
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Newcomer used rapier and/or shortsword.
Which is part of my confusion, because those already have a damage profile similar to the longsword.
Not to mention other options. The character in question can switch to an asp coil for free, or spend a relatively cheap ancestry feat to get a flickmace or the also-d8 dueling sword.
... So is that the line in the sand? The ancestry feat?
And one of the trade-offs for doing lots of damage with a longspear
You're not really doing 'lots of damage' with a longspear though. Or rather, rogues sometimes can do lots of damage but it doesn't really have anything to do with using a spear.
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Is there a particular reason why you're worried about ruffians with longswords specifically?
Because it's a power boost from before remaster which I don't think the rogue needs.
Sure, pre remaster you can jump through considerable hoops with an opportunity cost to get a D8 attack with a one handed weapon but a newcomer to the game armed with only the core rulebook couldn't get there.
Newcomer used rapier and/or shortsword. Or a longspear if a ruffian.
And one of the trade-offs for doing lots of damage with a longspear and all those skills was that a rogue was comparatively fragile.
I know that I'd prefer a longsword/shield rogue to a longspear rogue at least until gang up kicks in or Reactionary Attack. Especially with shield block the durability compensates for the lack of reach.
And obviously the longsword is only the floor of what can be achieved with a martial D8 weapon. I chose it for my example precisely because it is NOT anywhere near the best option but still has potential issues.
Why do people think getting access to all martial weapons, regardless of subclass, is not a power boost? And that for some reason, the Ruffian in particular is somehow getting more compared to any other subclass and should consequently be nerfed for it? The Ruffian subclass already pays for their increased access by being MAD and by having a damage dice restriction, there's no need to nerf them further by imposing a harsher damage dice restriction, especially since the Ruffian is designed around being able to Sneak Attack with weapons not normally able to be used with Sneak Attack.
People bringing up these other Martial weapons to Sneak Attack with make me go "Well, how is that much better than a simple version of that weapon?" Or "Why wouldn't I just go Thief Rogue and be less MAD while doing the same thing but better?"
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Honestly, all I want from the new ruffian is Str +4 at chargen and a main-hand flail, particularly now that Disarm is pretty damn good. You know how many agile or finesse weapons there are with both Disarm and Trip? 7, only 1 of which is common and it's a d4 nonlethal weapon. Without the die cap, I could possibly use a bladed scarf or a spiked chain, but those are two-handed weapons and that would lock me out of an off-hand agile attack. As things stand now, though, I've got d6 lethal damage, both traits I want, and I can follow up a successful trip with an agile strike to increase my chances of actually getting those sneak attack dice to roll.
All in all, I'm pretty happy.
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We've already had this discussion.
There isn't a single d8 martial or advanced weapon that would give ruffians anything that they didn't have already or that can be achieved with the d6 limit. The problem doesn't come from those d8 weapons but from other effects that would allow ruffians to have access to other weapons they shouldn't.
This is just totally false.
Lets assume that we want a reach weapon and want something better than the longspear. So. I'm ONLY going to look at common martial d8 reach weapons. All of the following are absolutely, inarguably better than a longspear. Now, we can argue how MUCH better than a longspear they are if your want, but they are all clearly mathematically better (they do everything a longspear does and more)
Bec de Corbin (Razing, Shove, Versatile B)
Lance (deadly d8, jousting d6)
Long Hammer (Brace, Trip, Versatile B)
The following are almost certainly better but damage is not piercing so not mathematically 100% better
Bo Staff (Trip, Parry)
Fauchard (Deadly D8, sweep, trip)
Glaive (deadly D8, Forceful)
Meteor Hammer (Backswing, disarm, trip)
And there are LOTS of other options that would be opened up for martial D8 weapons or uncommon martial D8 weapons and even more for advanced ones But the above list alone makes it absolutely clear that allowing D8 martial weapons for the rogue would be an upgrade. I'd argue a pretty significant upgrade (although I do NOT think it a game breaking one). I'd like my ruffian rogue to get deadly d8 or versatile bashing or deadly D8 and trip on what is generally a BETTER damage type.
Watch out guys, the ruffian might trip us at reach. How would we ever recover from their ability to do something so heinous?
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Watch out guys, the ruffian might trip us at reach. How would we ever recover from their ability to do something so heinous?
So, you agree then that this would be a noticeable buff for the rogue and just want to move the goalposts to how MUCH of a buff it would be?
Ok.
Personally, I think the pre-Remaster rogue (thief and ruffian) were just fine in terms of power. At lower levels they were less powerful in terms of pure damage than some other martials but they compensated for that with their skills. From mid-teens or so on up they become pretty overpowered. Basically as powerful or more powerful in combat than most martials combined with their incredible versatility out of combat.
And then the remaster buffed them. Significantly (the new Gang up just rocks and the new weapon proficiencies give them, at a minimum, more flexibility). They're now noticeably MORE powerful than they were.
And people are complaining because they weren't made even MORE powerful.
I think Paizo erred on increasing their power level at all. And I think people complaining that they should be still MORE powerful are just totally and utterly wrong.
I'll try really hard to let this be my final word on the subject :-).
We've already had this discussion.
There isn't a single d8 martial or advanced weapon that would give ruffians anything that they didn't have already or that can be achieved with the d6 limit. The problem doesn't come from those d8 weapons but from other effects that would allow ruffians to have access to other weapons they shouldn't.
This is just totally false.
Lets assume that we want a reach weapon and want something better than the longspear. So. I'm ONLY going to look at common martial d8 reach weapons. All of the following are absolutely, inarguably better than a longspear. Now, we can argue how MUCH better than a longspear they are if your want, but they are all clearly mathematically better (they do everything a longspear does and more)
Bec de Corbin (Razing, Shove, Versatile B)
Lance (deadly d8, jousting d6)
Long Hammer (Brace, Trip, Versatile B)The following are almost certainly better but damage is not piercing so not mathematically 100% better
Bo Staff (Trip, Parry)
Fauchard (Deadly D8, sweep, trip)
Glaive (deadly D8, Forceful)
Meteor Hammer (Backswing, disarm, trip)And there are LOTS of other options that would be opened up for martial D8 weapons or uncommon martial D8 weapons and even more for advanced ones But the above list alone makes it absolutely clear that allowing D8 martial weapons for the rogue would be an upgrade. I'd argue a pretty significant upgrade (although I do NOT think it a game breaking one). I'd like my ruffian rogue to get deadly d8 or versatile bashing or deadly D8 and trip on what is generally a BETTER damage type.
The point is not that it would not be an improvement, point is that it would be in line with what Thief can already do and it would not unbalance the game.
Ruffian is very good, but it is still behind Thief. Best niche it has currently IMO is going for Mauler and getting to Improved Knockdown to apply Sneak attack twice with The Harder They Fall and set up you and your group. All the weapons you posted here would matter little for this strat. Most relevant trait there is Deadly d8, which only really matters when you roll high on the deadly die anyway. Were the Deadly die higher I would agree with you, though (Deadly only really matters when it can make an enemy last fewer hits afterall), but as it is, yes, it would be fine if you exclude damage die reduction shenanigans for better weapons.
Also, with current rules the lance can be used at horseback, turning it into a one-handed pseudo d8 reach weapon with deadly d8 already. Why not take that as the new standard instead?
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I don't know why people consider the ruffian to be MAD when the only thing you need is a +1 Dex to fill up your breasplate AC. Athletics can inflict off-guard with trip and you eventually have access to Gang Up and since reach weapons are pretty much the default for ruffians it means they pretty much are always going to be hitting off-guard targets and thus trigger sneak attack. The only other less MAD rogue racket is thief because it can literally throw Str through the window but that's it.
roquepo already said why this change wouldn't be disruptive, but I'll reiterate an earlier point; there's d4 and d6 weapons that already grant the benefits of those "disruptive" weapons, their only real advantage is that they have a higher damage, but the ruffian already has access to that damage with longspears so we have this backwards logic in that we have a martial class that has to choose between being efficient or being more versatile when literally no other martial in the game has to do that.
What's exaclty the problem of ruffians using a glaive when they already have acces to the elven branched spear? It's literally a 1 point of damage difference per damage die, so literally 4 in the best case scenario. Is this damage difference meaningless? Not 100% but it's pretty much the same average damage than someone that picks up Sneak Attacker at 4th level.
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Also Ruffian with a d8 weapon is slighly above Thief in damage until level 10 (assuming both have reach, that is). Once Precise Debilitations come into play, any chance of catching up disappears, so I don't get where the fuss comes from when all we are talking is a measly deadly d8 damage that will only be somewhat relevant once or twice per level at most when there are remaster Ruffian builds that are already above what a let's say Glaive can do.
I'm OK with the current state of Ruffian RN and I assume Paizo took this measure both to get this done quick and as a way of future proofing the subclass, but pretending that the pillars that build this system would crumble due to a Rogue wielding a sharper stick is just an absurd notion.
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I mean, the pain point fixed in the remaster was that "specific weapon proficiencies" don't really interact well with the rest of the rules that talk about things like "proficiency in [class] of weapons." So you got rogues with martial proficiency and wizards with simple proficiency. This has benefits in that you can now access, say, the Aldori dueling sword with one feat.
Ruffians can effectively use every single weapon they could use pre-remaster, and they can also use some other weapons. This wasn't a nerf, but a buff and people seem perturbed that it was not enough of a buff, which is odd because the pre-remaster rogue was honestly a good class.
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people seem perturbed that it was not enough of a buff
People are confused at the cut off for the benefit, wondering why that particular cutoff point was warranted when the base class itself exceeds that cutoff. IMO, it'd be weird if people didn't look at martial weapons every rogue can use like Dueling Spear, Elven Curve Blade and Spiked Chain and wonder about the balance reasons there was for a Khopesh or longsword not working.
I know for myself, if a d8 was a must for my ruffian, I'd ignore the current 'benefit' of the current feature and either take the Dueling Spear [for Disarm and Versatile S] or Spiked Chain [for Disarm and Trip] so I can do just fine with the current version: I just can't see why I can use those weapons and someone else is prevented from using a longsword, Battle Axe or Jiu Huan Dao with a feature that adds non-finesse/agile weapons to the weapons a rogue can sneak attack with.
So debate over this doesn't equate to being perturbed. I mean, I'm not calling people here perturbed because they question the validity of debate over the subject of a thread.
I think there was a missed opportunity to cap the Thief at sneak attacking with d6 weapons, honestly.
Like the Dueling Spear, Aldori Dueling Sword, and Elven Curve Blade seem more scoundrel weapons anyway.
Eh, maybe.
Wouldn't change much, though. Thief would still at the top (currently their best weapons are d6) and it would mostly hurt those that want to try out a Monk or Martial Artist dedication for the stances due to the unnarmed attack changes.
I think that would be way more silly than the ruffian restriction, becuase in the thief's case there wasn't a restriction there to begin with (besides finesse ofc).
people seem perturbed that it was not enough of a buffPeople are confused at the cut off for the benefit, wondering why that particular cutoff point was warranted when the base class itself exceeds that cutoff. IMO, it'd be weird if people didn't look at martial weapons every rogue can use like Dueling Spear, Elven Curve Blade and Spiked Chain and wonder about the balance reasons there was for a Khopesh or longsword not working.
I know for myself, if a d8 was a must for my ruffian, I'd ignore the current 'benefit' of the current feature and either take the Dueling Spear [for Disarm and Versatile S] or Spiked Chain [for Disarm and Trip] so I can do just fine with the current version: I just can't see why I can use those weapons and someone else is prevented from using a longsword, Battle Axe or Jiu Huan Dao with a feature that adds non-finesse/agile weapons to the weapons a rogue can sneak attack with.
So debate over this doesn't equate to being perturbed. I mean, I'm not calling people here perturbed because they question the validity of debate over the subject of a thread.
Well the obvious difference is that all the weapons you listed are two handed and the longsword and kopesh are one handed. I dunno if people find having a free hand to be meaningfully better but it is a pretty clear difference in the d6 vs d8 martial weapons. (Aldori Dueling Sword breaks that mold but is advanced.)
Well the obvious difference is that all the weapons you listed are two handed and the longsword and kopesh are one handed. I dunno if people find having a free hand to be meaningfully better but it is a pretty clear difference in the d6 vs d8 martial weapons. (Aldori Dueling Sword breaks that mold but is advanced.)
I don't find it much of a difference combat because of the traits attached to those d8 finesse weapons [trip and disarm] alleviate the free hand uses for those useful athletic maneuvers. [grapple has no d8 weapons leaving only shove not on the d8 finesse weapon list but on the non-finesse weapon]
There is also a tradeoff in the number of traits on the weapon as 2 handed weapons tend to have more traits than single handed ones. You'll note that the longsword, Battle Axe, Jiu Huan Dao and kopesh have only a single trait on them while the 2 handed finesse have 2-3 traits, so if you're weighing a free hand you also have to weigh the difference in traits: all weapons in a category should be roughly balanced with each other and if that isn't the case, it's an issue with the weapon [like the Exquisite Sword Cane].