PaizoCon Remaster changes compilation.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, it's a bit strange that spells like Disintegrate are apparently safe from legal trouble, however conditions like flat-footed are not. I trust the guys at Paizo know what they are doing and are not just being arbitrary for no good reason.

Silver Crusade

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I trust them, and the gals and nonbinary pals as well :3

Disintegrate is likely safe due to how basic and rudimentary its name is, like if they had a spell called "laser" or "kill"


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
So the other planes are... what? Alternate Universes? Is it just "Universe"?

The Astral Plane hasn't been renamed, and it looks like the Elemental Planes haven't been either. No word yet on the Ethereal or Positive & Negative, or the Outer Planes.

Rysky wrote:

I trust them, and the gals and nonbinary pals as well :3

Disintegrate is likely safe due to how basic and rudimentary its name is, like if they had a spell called "laser" or "kill"

I think you're right. The spells who didn't have their names changed seem to be the ones with generic names. Contrast this with spells like Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Stoneskin (now possibly Translocate, Interplanar Teleportation, and Mountain Resilience).

Silver Crusade

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Evan Tarlton wrote:
Rysky wrote:
So the other planes are... what? Alternate Universes? Is it just "Universe"?

The Astral Plane hasn't been renamed, and it looks like the Elemental Planes haven't been either. No word yet on the Ethereal or Positive & Negative, or the Outer Planes.

Rysky wrote:

I trust them, and the gals and nonbinary pals as well :3

Disintegrate is likely safe due to how basic and rudimentary its name is, like if they had a spell called "laser" or "kill"

I think you're right. The spells who didn't have their names changed seem to be the ones with generic names. Contrast this with spells like Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Stoneskin (now possibly Translocate, Interplanar Teleportation, and Mountain Resilience).

*nods*

I meant more in the case of it's the Universe and the other planes are not/alternate universes??? Just curious on it being chosen for the material.


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At least as far back as the 1e book Planar Adventures, the name "the Universe" was given as another term which refers to the Material Plane. It seems fair to describe different planes as different universes, but with a quick skim it seems like the planes are generally called planes primarily, and 'other realities' if a more descriptive synonym is needed.

While the Great Beyond as a whole refers to the collection of planes as the multiverse, it seems like if you are talking about the Universe, that would be specifically the "universe of the Material Plane" (a phrase which comes up a couple of times in relevant planar literature).

I didn't realize before but I have rather taken for granted that the universe of the material plane is special and particular among the realities of the multiverse, and so the only one which truly qualifies for the name 'universe', even if other realities have their own cosmic significance. I'm very fond of this change in as much as it doesn't really feel like a change to me, personally, but more making official what was technical before, but I can see how it could be seen as unusual or unexpected.


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Romão98 wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Positive damage/energy is now Vitality damage/energy, negative damage/energy is now Void damage/energy.
I'm sad that they have abandoned both positive and negative energies. Now I'm interested in knowing how Vitality and Void will be presented and how these two energies will be related to the spells that deal with necromancy and the lore in Golarion like Book of the Dead.

Just the name changes (that's why there's a conversion column in index page) their mechanics keeps the same until we know.

Perpdepog wrote:
I hope that this new wish ritual is more of a narrative-focused ritual, and that the wish-style spells that let you replicate lower ranked spells remain.

Maybe we still have a new lvl 10 spell only to this with another name but the phrase "Wish is now a ritual, not a 10th-level spell." worries me a little.


Something I just wondered: Saves were changed to defenses, but AC is a more iconic D&D term going way back to when it was THAC0. Did they feel AC was safe to keep anyway?

It apparently appeared in the Chainmail game that predated D&D, but saves are also used in other games today like 40k's armor saves.


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magnuskn wrote:
Well, it's a bit strange that spells like Disintegrate are apparently safe from legal trouble, however conditions like flat-footed are not. I trust the guys at Paizo know what they are doing and are not just being arbitrary for no good reason.

If you were Paizo and you wanted a really easy guide to go through and make the bulk of the changes to the Core Rule Book, here's what you'd probably use.

1. Is this a combination of specific words that I'm using because D&D put them together that way? If so, probably change it. "Flame Strike", "See Invisibility", "Flesh to Stone", "Magic Missile", etc., are all getting changed. "Lawful" and "Good" might be generic concepts, but nobody calls anything "lawful good" for reasons other than D&D's alignment system.

2. If it's just one word, is it using a definition that D&D made up for it? If so, probably change it. "Flat-footed" doesn't actually mean "off-guard" in the dictionary, "abjuration" doesn't mean anything like "warding", and "evocation" actually means "summoning".

That doesn't cover anything, and doesn't touch on creatures, but it explains a lot of the CRB to PC1 changes.


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Feragore wrote:

Something I just wondered: Saves were changed to defenses, but AC is a more iconic D&D term going way back to when it was THAC0. Did they feel AC was safe to keep anyway?

It apparently appeared in the Chainmail game that predated D&D, but saves are also used in other games today like 40k's armor saves.

It's your premise that's incorrect; saves weren't changed to defenses. Defenses is a term that covers both AC and saves, allowing you to look at one spot in a spell and see what it resolves against. We have seen "basic fortitude save" still in place.


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Well in Rage of Elements we already know that AC stays.

And I agree with QuidEst the change is that know they concentrate all defensive checks in same Defense line making the spell stat block easier to understand.

I misunderstand and created a confusion about this. But what's really changes is that Save line in spells stat block is now Defense and includes other things like AC too. (sorry)

Maybe it's more a design improvement than some legal question.

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Well, it's a bit strange that spells like Disintegrate are apparently safe from legal trouble, however conditions like flat-footed are not. I trust the guys at Paizo know what they are doing and are not just being arbitrary for no good reason.

"flat-footed" meaning the state of not so efficient defense that sneaky characters can take advantage of to hurt you more is VERY much a DnD thing.

If you keep the second part, you have to get rid of the first.

Liberty's Edge

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That said, I am sure I and the people I play with will be using flat-footed and other such DnDisms for a long long time.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
That said, I am sure I and the people I play with will be using flat-footed and other such DnDisms for a long long time.

Definitely. People use "advantage" pretty frequently and that's not even a term Pathfinder ever used in the first place.


The term AC originated in wae games to describe how difficult to damage armor is.

"Caught flat-footed" originated as a horse racing term for a horse left at the starting line. That spread to human races for the same situation. Eventually it just became "caught unaware", and its this meaning that TTRPGs use. "Caught off-guard" and "caught flat-footed" are synonyms.

Advantage and Disadvantage also date back to early TTRPGs, 5e just massively popularized the term since that system uses it for literally everything.

Most of the mechanical terms originate from war games because this (d20 damages) used to be war games. Even if some people really don't like that fact, and want to just see it as an RPG.


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Rysky wrote:
I meant more in the case of it's the Universe and the other planes are not/alternate universes??? Just curious on it being chosen for the material.

So in Model Theory the notion of a "Universe" is the collection of all things you are willing to consider with your prescribed set of rules. There can be things outside the Universe, it's just that you're not concerned with them for your current purposes. It makes sense that the "Prime Material Plane" is thus just "The Universe" to people who are native there, since it's impossible to access any other dimension without magic.

I mean, magic obviously exists and people use it to do things, but the Universe probably wasn't designed to have people just visiting the Fire Dimension or the Astral Dimension regularly.


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Rysky wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Rysky wrote:
So the other planes are... what? Alternate Universes? Is it just "Universe"?

The Astral Plane hasn't been renamed, and it looks like the Elemental Planes haven't been either. No word yet on the Ethereal or Positive & Negative, or the Outer Planes.

Rysky wrote:

I trust them, and the gals and nonbinary pals as well :3

Disintegrate is likely safe due to how basic and rudimentary its name is, like if they had a spell called "laser" or "kill"

I think you're right. The spells who didn't have their names changed seem to be the ones with generic names. Contrast this with spells like Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Stoneskin (now possibly Translocate, Interplanar Teleportation, and Mountain Resilience).

*nods*

I meant more in the case of it's the Universe and the other planes are not/alternate universes??? Just curious on it being chosen for the material.

What interests me is what we'll call parallel versions of the Material Plane/Universe now, since we know those also exist thanks to Dark Archive.

Maybe we'll have the Universe, and next door the Monoverse, Alphaverse, Unoverse, etc.

Liberty's Edge

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I wonder how the foreign language versions of Remastered will tackle all these changes.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evan Tarlton wrote:
Rysky wrote:
So the other planes are... what? Alternate Universes? Is it just "Universe"?

The Astral Plane hasn't been renamed, and it looks like the Elemental Planes haven't been either. No word yet on the Ethereal or Positive & Negative, or the Outer Planes.

Rysky wrote:

I trust them, and the gals and nonbinary pals as well :3

Disintegrate is likely safe due to how basic and rudimentary its name is, like if they had a spell called "laser" or "kill"

I think you're right. The spells who didn't have their names changed seem to be the ones with generic names. Contrast this with spells like Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Stoneskin (now possibly Translocate, Interplanar Teleportation, and Mountain Resilience).

Considering that positive and negative traits are now vitality and void, I'd be sad if negative energy plane isn't now THE VOID


So what about the positive plane? Would it be the Life plane?

Liberty's Edge

YuriP wrote:
So what about the positive plane? Would it be the Life plane?

The Vitality ?

Silver Crusade

The Raven Black wrote:
YuriP wrote:
So what about the positive plane? Would it be the Life plane?
The Vitality ?

The Vital Strike.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I like the Source, myself, but that's a Jack Kirby thing.

Liberty's Edge

The Surge.

The too bright place.

The white hot room...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"Ardor" has a nice ring to it for a positive energy plane name, I think.

Means "great warmth of feeling, fervor, or passion;" or "intense devotion, eagerness, or enthusiasm, zeal;" or "burning heat."

Which all loosely describe the bright intensity of vitality of the plane, especially if you assume it is a fervor "for life itself."


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The beacon would be my preference. Although a bunch of Surfers walking around talking about how vital everything is might be making its way into my Golarion post-remastery.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
I like the Source, myself, but that's a Jack Kirby thing.

I instantly thought of The Source too, regardless of Kirbyness. Or possibly because of Kirbyness because if wanting the Krackle is wrong, I don't wanna be right.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Positive Energy Plane—also called the Furnace,the Cosmic Fire, Creation's Forge,or The Fires of Creation.

The Negative Energy Plane—also known as the Void,Entropy's Heart, the Nothing, and the Final End.

Here are the other names used for the Eneregy planes.


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Prince Setehrael wrote:

The Positive Energy Plane—also called the Furnace,the Cosmic Fire, Creation's Forge,or The Fires of Creation.

The Negative Energy Plane—also known as the Void,Entropy's Heart, the Nothing, and the Final End.

Here are the other names used for the Eneregy planes.

Feel like The Furnace would be Plane of Fire, but Creation's Forge sounds so good.

I do wonder if we'll get endonyms for the elemental planes for their denizens, like "Raq'Thahar" for the Plane of Earth as per what the Terraen speaking earth elementals call it. Paizo fabricating endonyms is one of my favorite parts of PF2e, makes the world feel so much more 'lived in' if that makes sense.

(also hi other guy who uses Mythic Seltyiel as a pfp!)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
nick1wasd wrote:
Prince Setehrael wrote:

The Positive Energy Plane—also called the Furnace,the Cosmic Fire, Creation's Forge,or The Fires of Creation.

The Negative Energy Plane—also known as the Void,Entropy's Heart, the Nothing, and the Final End.

Here are the other names used for the Eneregy planes.

Feel like The Furnace would be Plane of Fire, but Creation's Forge sounds so good.

I do wonder if we'll get endonyms for the elemental planes for their denizens, like "Raq'Thahar" for the Plane of Earth as per what the Terraen speaking earth elementals call it. Paizo fabricating endonyms is one of my favorite parts of PF2e, makes the world feel so much more 'lived in' if that makes sense.

(also hi other guy who uses Mythic Seltyiel as a pfp!)

Hello Friend!

Mythic Seltyiel was my favorite Pathfinder art piece and I believe that we deserve more of it.


No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tactical Drongo wrote:

No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now

.

We have known that for a long time and no one really cares that much because scores were useless, and Paizo has already told us the 18+ will work through same but hasn't given us specifics.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm a point buy guy, scores going away in favor of modifiers just makes my life easier.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Tactical Drongo wrote:

No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now

.

We have known that for a long time and no one really cares that much because scores were useless, and Paizo has already told us the 18+ will work through same but hasn't given us specifics.

I wasnt aware of it

I am not surprised, but its kind of good to see them gone (as you said, they did accomplish nothing)


Paizo made scores practically useless with the way they did point buy. Scores are great when you have control of the minutia, and this version of the game has everyone with practically the same set of ability scores.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Scores were always bad and the PF2 ability modifier generation is leagues better than PF1 or 5e.


Scores are practically useless because they don't do anything or contribute to character abilities beyond what the bonus is. Scores are just modifiers with extra steps.


Lurker in Insomnia wrote:
Scores are practically useless because they don't do anything or contribute to character abilities beyond what the bonus is. Scores are just modifiers with extra steps.

Yeah, better to save those extra steps for when you are actually using them, like rolling for your abilities. That'll be the only time you'll need the score anyway.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Scores were always bad and the PF2 ability modifier generation is leagues better than PF1 or 5e.

Agree to disagree. Both methods have their benefits and negatives.


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Stats were cool when rolling your stats was cool
Rolling was cool when death was frequent and readily available.

Permanent PC death certainly happens in PF2, but it's not given anything like the pride of place necessary to make rolling your stats cool... which means that yeah, stats themselves are pretty unnecessary.


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I like the idea of the planes outside the Universe having a bunch of different names. Like everybody can agree that the plane formerly known as "The Elemental Plane of Fire" is largely on fire and very hot, but people are going to have a lot more poetic names for it than "Plane of Fire."


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I hope generally they take the approach with the remastered rulebooks that they took with books like book of the dead and secrets of magic, where any cosmology or lore stuff is coming from an in world narrative voice rather than a rules oriented omniscient narrator. The potential for new planes of existence to tear into the universe is delightfully scary and doesn't require cosmic evil to be super destructive. It also gives room for the dark tapestry to be a highway to all kinds of terrible things that these insufferable occult casters really need to be more cautious about...(a favorite story device of Paizo writers).


YuriP wrote:

Some more sneak peak info from preview of Rage of Elements.

https://ibb.co/3m7Yt8H

Source: https://www.youtube.com/live/Ilt5OvoFgzk?feature=share&t=1609

You will no more being flat-footed but off-guard.
Attack of Opportunity now will be Reactive Strike.
Illusion still a trait with rules.
Positive damage/energy is now Vitality damage/energy, negative damage/energy is now Void damage/energy.
Saves are now Defense.

Wish is now a Ritual!!! Probably the similar spells from other traditions was also removed.

Like all of it, with the possible exception of saves->defense. To me a "defense" really seems like something the attacker would try to beat (like AC). Obviously the math works out the same either way, so not a huge deal.

Scarab Sages

bugleyman wrote:
Like all of it, with the possible exception of saves->defense. To me a "defense" really seems like something the attacker would try to beat (like AC). Obviously the math works out the same either way, so not a huge deal.

I wonder if 'Reflex DCs' will be replaced by 'Reflex Defense', and a 'Reflex saving throw' will be replaced by 'Reflex check'.


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bugleyman wrote:
To me a "defense" really seems like something the attacker would try to beat (like AC). Obviously the math works out the same either way, so not a huge deal.

trembles at the sound of THAC0 in the distance


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tactical Drongo wrote:

No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now

Sorry, it’s censored. No one can tell you if you can’t prove you’re over 18.

:p


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Tactical Drongo wrote:

No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now

.

We have known that for a long time and no one really cares that much because scores were useless, and Paizo has already told us the 18+ will work through same but hasn't given us specifics.

I think it would be simpler to treat it like skill boosts: "Give a stat +1, you can't have a total of +5 until level 10, and +6 at level 20." Makes it a little more forgiving that anything past +5 being worth 0.5 instead of 1 but not enough extra sauce to make a PC OP. At least that's what I would do if I were the design team...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nick1wasd wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Tactical Drongo wrote:

No comment from anybody on the fact that ability scores are gone?

I wonder how the (former) 18+ increasing of the scores will work now

.

We have known that for a long time and no one really cares that much because scores were useless, and Paizo has already told us the 18+ will work through same but hasn't given us specifics.

I think it would be simpler to treat it like skill boosts: "Give a stat +1, you can't have a total of +5 until level 10, and +6 at level 20." Makes it a little more forgiving that anything past +5 being worth 0.5 instead of 1 but not enough extra sauce to make a PC OP. At least that's what I would do if I were the design team...

This is also how I hope it goes, half bonuses with die rolls is not a great game mechanic, and no one is going to be upset by having more points to spread around. It is probably how I will run it as a GM regardless of whether it is the rules or not.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

From what I remember hearing so far it sounds like stat boosts are remaining mostly the same and you just either spend two at once or track a half boost for 18>20, etc.

Imo missed opportunity. Making everything cost 1 boost and just putting a cap on the rate of growth would have been really nice and even indirectly help address some problems with PF2.


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The one change I'm most curious about is "why is Wish a ritual now"? Is that because "Wish spell" is D&D trade dress? Is it so we can give a Jinn the ability to grant wishes without giving them access to 10th level spells? Is it an observation that Wish kind of had an outsized footprint among the limited number of 10th level spells you get? All of these?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The one change I'm most curious about is "why is Wish a ritual now"? Is that because "Wish spell" is D&D trade dress? Is it so we can give a Jinn the ability to grant wishes without giving them access to 10th level spells? Is it an observation that Wish kind of had an outsized footprint among the limited number of 10th level spells you get? All of these?

I wonder if "Wish is a ritual" means Wish is gone, or if it means that 'Wish' is the name of a ritual but the spell we currently call Wish still exists under a different name. If it's the former, is it just Wish specifically, or are we losing the other tradition wish-equivalent spells (Miracle, Primal Phenomena, Alter Reality) too?

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