PaizoCon Remaster changes compilation.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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OK people let's compile all announced remaster changes in one topic and talk about them.

I remember that we will get:

  • Warpriest with master proficiency in their favored weapons and with access (via feat?) to heavy armor.
  • Druid non-longer having metal armors
  • Alignment damage are now spiritual damage (remembers me Age of Wonders) and will affect everyone but also we get Holy/Unholy traits to deal with weakness resistances like happen to precision damage.
  • Focus points are free. You can refocus it to you maximum if you have enough time to do this and we also still have feats to diminish this refocus time (but without too much details for now

    There's a lot more new changes please put those you remember here.


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  • Shield will now have runes to improve hardness!

    Now probably my Paladin player will want to take the Indestructible Shield and improve it with rune.


  • I like that focus point change. It was annoying keeping track of where you were with focus points for multiples. They replace a spell and give more endurance, not more power. So it was an unnecessary limiter.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    Those two Warpriest fixes have been more or less my hombrew since release.


    Also with this change there's no more an feat tax to be able to refocus more focus points. But a feat that diminishes the needed time to refocus still useful.

    Nicolas Paradise wrote:
    Those two Warpriest fixes have been more or less my hombrew since release.

    Maybe you served as inspiration! kkkk

    But this also gives me good feelings that they will do this to alchemist too. Including this is also a thing that's frequently homebrewed.


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    Doesn't that sort of invalidate the magus' and summoner's whole wave casting dynamic? I mean, if the warpriest can have full martial proficiency as well, as well as their spells.

    I'm real curious to see if something else on the class chassis had to give for that, or if Paizo has decided that balance point isn't as big a concern as we previously thought, or wha.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    Yah giving alchemist master in bombs if bomber and master with mutagen based weapons if mutagenist or master with attacks from alchemical items in general.


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    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Perpdepog wrote:

    Doesn't that sort of invalidate the magus' and summoner's whole wave casting dynamic? I mean, if the warpriest can have full martial proficiency as well, as well as their spells.

    I'm real curious to see if something else on the class chassis had to give for that, or if Paizo has decided that balance point isn't as big a concern as we previously thought, or wha.

    Spellstike and Act together are really big pieces that make the Magus and summoner a cut above while using their master master proficiency that warrent their wave casting. Warpriest doesn't have an equivalent feature that warrents losing primary casting.


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    Also, keep in mind that Final Doctrine is 19th level. I don't think it's going to be stepping on other Martial's toes when they've had Master in Weapons/Unarmed since 13th.

    I would've enjoyed it on my Extinction Curse Warpriest. Mind you, I still had fun, but it would've been a nice end-of-career bonus.

    Makes me wonder if they might be thinking of giving Battle Oracle something similar.


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    YuriP wrote:
  • Druid non-longer having metal armors
  • *Fixing my mistake (it was the excitement and my poor domain of English).

  • Druids no longer have anathema against metal armor and shields.

    This also put's another point. With this change wood shields basically becomes a cheaper shield option only with less hardness and HP. Have they still reason to exist?

    Also with new "hardness" runes the Tower Shields and Fortress Shield can become a thing at high levels.


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    Probably things like electricity spells and atuff like heat metal.

    Rust monsters too


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    Don't worth these things are too situational to keep the investment into a more fragile shield.

    Also we probably won't see rust monsters in Monster Core too.


    My friend wants to know about the witch. He hopes Paizo makes the witch fun and powerful again.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Nicolas Paradise wrote:
    Yah giving alchemist master in bombs if bomber and master with mutagen based weapons if mutagenist or master with attacks from alchemical items in general.

    If proficiency is the solution, it should just be master in general. Toxicologists and non-feral mutagenists use weapons (potentially chirurgeons too) and those are some of the alchemist builds furthest behind.


    Thank you for sharing this with those who cannot attend.


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    This is a personal request people can feel free to ignore, but can we please keep this thread purely to the changes themselves, rather than discussion of the changes? It's a little hard to divide what was actually said from what people want to see/are speculating about.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Another thing that came up was removal of the 8 schools of magic.
    I believe replacement schools mentioned were school of the battle mage and school of the protean form


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    - "Druidic" is being renamed to "Wildsong".
    - Druids get the talk-to-animals feats earlier on, I guess.
    - Tieflings and aasimars are being turned into lineages of a new versatile heritage called nephilim; ganzi and aphorites will eventually be folded in as well.
    - Light and Dancing Lights are getting merged
    - Magic Missile is being renamed to "Force Barrage"
    - Glitterdust is being merged with Faerie Fire
    - Divine casters now have an all-purpose damage spell in Divine Lance, which will do spirit damage
    - Spell components are being removed and replaced with the trait system, presumably with new traits for Verbal and such.
    - For witches, lots of new focus spells and feats that create effects coming from your familiar. Familiars all get a special ability depending on your Patron, and all the patron names have been changed to be more flavorful (Curse = The Resentment, Winter = Silence In Snow, etc).
    - Wizard schools: Civic Wizardry will be about, like, the stuff a village wizard might need to help the community, Battle Magic will be, well, obvious, and Protean Form will be about transmuting yourself and other things, I think.


    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    fujisempai wrote:

    Another thing that came up was removal of the 8 schools of magic.

    I believe replacement schools mentioned were school of the battle mage and school of the protean form

    Why would they need to change these? Most of them are things they shouldn't need to change (Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation).

    Are they just renaming them?, because I can't see them completely redoing the schools, since that would be a far more incompatible change then alignment.


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    They do need to change those things, unfortunately. The old school system is just too similar to D&D.

    That is to say, this is what they've reported, having spoken to lawyers.

    Liberty's Edge

    Also IIRC the content of previous PF2 books will still be usable in Remastered. Not sure about PFS though.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Given the magnitude of the changes we know about, I feel Remastered is on par with a PF2.75.

    Notably in the meaning that my PCs (and likely others) will likely all need a complete overhaul to integrate the new version of the rules and its consequences.

    Heck, even the setting sounds like it might be pretty different on a PC level, even if the lore stays valid.


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    The Raven Black wrote:

    Given the magnitude of the changes we know about, I feel Remastered is on par with a PF2.75.

    Notably in the meaning that my PCs (and likely others) will likely all need a complete overhaul to integrate the new version of the rules and its consequences.

    Heck, even the setting sounds like it might be pretty different on a PC level, even if the lore stays valid.

    At this point even if the previous lore supposedly stays the same it might as well be a completely new setting with the same names as the previous one.

    Which the previously lore would need to actively be changed to support some of these changes.


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    nothinglord wrote:
    fujisempai wrote:

    Another thing that came up was removal of the 8 schools of magic.

    I believe replacement schools mentioned were school of the battle mage and school of the protean form

    Why would they need to change these? Most of them are things they shouldn't need to change (Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation).

    Are they just renaming them?, because I can't see them completely redoing the schools, since that would be a far more incompatible change then alignment.

    A stated reason I saw in a video summarizing remaster news was because this more easily allows the creation of new schools for different themes. The 8 school system was a bit too rigid for that to happen. Presumably it would also allow you to more easily flavor different wizards and wizards from different backgrounds/ancestries/regions.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Temperans wrote:
    The Raven Black wrote:

    Given the magnitude of the changes we know about, I feel Remastered is on par with a PF2.75.

    Notably in the meaning that my PCs (and likely others) will likely all need a complete overhaul to integrate the new version of the rules and its consequences.

    Heck, even the setting sounds like it might be pretty different on a PC level, even if the lore stays valid.

    At this point even if the previous lore supposedly stays the same it might as well be a completely new setting with the same names as the previous one.

    Which the previously lore would need to actively be changed to support some of these changes.

    Eh, only a little.


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    The core rules aren't really changing, just the options thanks. It's a mega-errata, and maybe 2.25, even, but it's not a new edition.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    The core rules aren't really changing, just the options thanks. It's a mega-errata, and maybe 2.25, even, but it's not a new edition.

    Hence why I did not speak of PF3.


    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    - Tieflings and aasimars are being turned into lineages of a new versatile heritage called nephilim; ganzi and aphorites will eventually be folded in as well.

    This wasn't really new (it had already been mentioned on the blog), but they explained a little better that since both Aasimars and Tieflings shared many similar feats, they managed to adjust a lot by removing these redundancies (for example both Fiendish Wings and Celestial Wings are basically the same feat with different names), by doing so they got more space to put new feats. Probably the Lineage feats will actually decide the origin of the inheritance and somehow opposing characteristics can be merged (perhaps the Lineage trait is no longer restricted to just 1).

    If so, this will open up many creative possibilities for the characters. Too bad we won't know the details until November.

    Kobold Catgirl wrote:

    - Light and Dancing Lights are getting merged

    ...
    - Glitterdust is being merged with Faerie Fire

    To me that makes perfect sense.

    Dancing Lights is a Cantrip that almost nobody took, because even though it had some advantages, it needed to be sustained and Faerie Fire, even though it didn't need tests, being trapped in an area also ended up being secondary when compared to the Glitterdust that accompanied the creature.
    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    - Divine casters now have an all-purpose damage spell in Divine Lance, which will do spirit damage

    For me this was one of the best changes in the remaster so far. This places the divine tradition more on a par with the others. For it is no longer a tradition where damage types always had a but of someone who was immune, either to alignment for not being opposite, or negative or positive damage for not being alive or undead. However, I still don't expect it to affect constructs and objects, precisely because of that name "Spiritual Damage". But just not having 2/3 of the creatures immune to its main damage type is already a tremendous evolution.

    I hope that together they also removed the dependency on a deity so that sorcerers and oracles can use spells without depending on a deity.
    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    - Spell components are being removed and replaced with the trait system, presumably with new traits for Verbal and such.

    Probably the change was more to avoid legal problems with the naming issue, but it should also help to make things simpler as everything will be defined by the traits (manipulate and concentration). But I won't be surprised if they take advantage of this to make some spells without these 2 traits and instead use more exotic "components" and solve some issues in interesting ways (like probably using attack instead of manipulate on attack spells and thus avoiding the AoO).

    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    - For witches, lots of new focus spells and feats that create effects coming from your familiar. Familiars all get a special ability depending on your Patron, and all the patron names have been changed to be more flavorful (Curse = The Resentment, Winter = Silence In Snow, etc).

    That part I thought was pretty cool. They're going to make the witch's familiar do something besides being a source of passive abilities. My fear here is that familiars are very fragile beings. This may leave the witch in a delicate situation, so I hope it is compensated in some way, either by making the skills very good to compensate for the risk (which if it is, I can already imagine people asking to make the familiars more resistant), or by making even the most resistant familiars.

    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    - Wizard schools: Civic Wizardry will be about, like, the stuff a village wizard might need to help the community, Battle Magic will be, well, obvious, and Protean Form will be about transmuting yourself and other things, I think.

    I've heard that, but I honestly don't know what to expect (besides better focus spells). The biggest problem here was what has already been mentioned by several, which is what happens now with classes and archetypes from other books like the magus that uses the schools of magic as a reference? Will they get an errata to adjust? Because from what I understand, Paizo has no intention of remastering the other books, because for them they are already good enough and do not suffer legal problems with D&D.


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    Witches Patrons now do a lot more. Hair and Nails feats are getting lumped together. Changes to hexes.

    Wizard Schools have totally all changed.

    Resilient Rune for Shields

    Magic Weapon and Magic Fang renamed Runic Weapon and Runic Body (?)and they now scale. But the old spells are still available in the old book if you want.

    New Cantrips and Spells. Including new cold and fire cantrips.

    Bards as well as Rogues are getting all martial weapons. Warrior Bard is getting something new.

    Rangers are going to lose the hunt prey requirement on some feats.


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    The Raven Black wrote:
    Given the magnitude of the changes we know about, I feel Remastered is on par with a PF2.75.

    I had that same feeling. That even though most of the core rules and the lore remain the same, in the end the book is going to have a lot more changes than D&D 3.0 had when 3.5 was released. In fact the comparison itself is to a similar degree to what we had when PF1 was released.

    Most likely we will need materials for adjustments. But I still think we can use the old material with minimal tweaks. Except of course the CRB and the APG.

    Liberty's Edge

    The Raven Black wrote:
    Also IIRC the content of previous PF2 books will still be usable in Remastered. Not sure about PFS though.

    Thinking more about the latter, I fervently hope PFS will allow a free rebuild for all characters once we have the full Remastered version of the Core.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Gortle wrote:

    Witches Patrons now do a lot more. Hair and Nails feats are getting lumped together. Changes to hexes.

    Wizard Schools have totally all changed.

    Resilient Rune for Shields

    Magic Weapon and Magic Fang renamed Runic Weapon and Runic Body (?)and they now scale. But the old spells are still available in the old book if you want.

    New Cantrips and Spells

    Bards as well as Rogues are getting all martial weapons. Warrior Bard is getting something new.

    Rangers are going to lose the hunt prey requirement on some feats.

    I do not know why they don't just merge Magic Weapon and Magic Fang together (same for the Runic versions).


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    Gortle wrote:
    Changes to hexes.

    Honestly, that was kind of the obvious thing I expected. What really surprised me was the part of familiars gaining class-related abilities.

    Gortle wrote:
    Resilient Rune for Shields

    I've said it before and it deserves to be repeated!

    Huh! Finally!!!
    Gortle wrote:
    Magic Weapon and Magic Fang renamed Runic Weapon and Runic Body (?)and they now scale. But the old spells are still available in the old book if you want.

    I still don't know what to think about it, is it just a name change and will it be restricted to primal tradition, or will it gain scalability somehow too, competing with runes? We'll have to wait and see. But I don't think it will change that much.

    Gortle wrote:
    New Cantrips and Spells

    I have good hopes for these new cantrips along with component extinction.

    I don't expect attack cantrips with just one action, but I can already expect new save cantrips and attack cantrips losing the manipulate trait.

    Gortle wrote:
    Warrior Bard is getting something new.

    Since Warpriest will have progression to master now, won't it be something similar?

    If so then some people will say that Bards have become more OP than ever! hahahaha

    Gortle wrote:
    Rangers are going to lose the hunt prey requirement on some feats.

    I didn't quite understand that. Is it to improve the ability of MC? Because I can't see the ranger operating without hunting prey, even if some feats dispense with this, their main abilities will not make the player no longer need to do this.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    The ranger thing is mostly about feats where some other class has the same feat, but was less restrictive because it didn’t have that hunt prey requirement. It is not all ranger feats. Just ones where another class did the same thing.


    Unicore wrote:
    The ranger thing is mostly about feats where some other class has the same feat, but was less restrictive because it didn’t have that hunt prey requirement. It is not all ranger feats. Just ones where another class did the same thing.

    I'm think this is about some of the Ranger archery feats. Maybe Disrupting Prey as it is a bad verion of the Champion and Barbarian equivalent Attack of Opportunity. But there were no details.

    At least they are giving Ranger Crossbows a boost.


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    There is a full document of all changes here

    From reddit


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    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    according to the doc, rangers are getting warden spells baseline which seems a lot more significant than making a few feats less reliant on hunt.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Gortle wrote:

    There is a full document of all changes here

    From reddit

    TMS is the best !!!

    As always.

    Many thanks for the link, Gortle.


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    Bards getting all martial is mind-boggling. It was already the caster with the best overall proficiencies. I would have been less surprised if they downgraded them to only simple, to be honest.

    I guess warrior muse might get better armor? Or maybe better Fort saves?


    Blave wrote:

    Bards getting all martial is mind-boggling. It was already the caster with the best overall proficiencies. I would have been less surprised if they downgraded them to only simple, to be honest.

    I guess warrior muse might get better armor? Or maybe better Fort saves?

    I for one love the bard changes. This allows a maestro bard to be Marshal without any extra investments. It's not like a bard is doing much with a weapon in combat anyway, or any actions left to waste on it.

    And also, this will hopefully give the weakest muse, namely the warrior a much needed boost, so it will hopefully be on par with the other muses and with that a valid option to choose from.


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    Gortle wrote:

    There is a full document of all changes here

    From reddit

    Ha! I'm almost forgetting.

    Orc will now be common ancestry. That's a cool change but I still think how tense will be their relationship to dwarves?

    And like rogues bards are now proficiency in martial weapons by default. (so maybe the Warrion Muse give them master proficiency or something minor)

    About "druids" they don't mention nothing about Battle Forms. So we don't know if something improved (I really want at last that the Battle Forms grow becomes optional). Also nothing was said about Companions (same reason).


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    Subutai1 wrote:
    Blave wrote:

    Bards getting all martial is mind-boggling. It was already the caster with the best overall proficiencies. I would have been less surprised if they downgraded them to only simple, to be honest.

    I guess warrior muse might get better armor? Or maybe better Fort saves?

    I for one love the bard changes. This allows a maestro bard to be Marshal without any extra investments. It's not like a bard is doing much with a weapon in combat anyway, or any actions left to waste on it.

    And also, this will hopefully give the weakest muse, namely the warrior a much needed boost, so it will hopefully be on par with the other muses and with that a valid option to choose from.

    I'm not against this change. Not at all. Just very, very surprised by it.

    I have played a Bard/Marshal in the past and having an easier way to do this in the future should I ever want to go back to this kind of character is amazing.

    I have to disagree on bard weapon usage, though. Inspiring Marshal Stance + Dirge is effectively almost as good as a proficiency bump by one step. My bard ended up being the party's primary melee guy after the fighter player had to drop out. I wasn't super amazing at it, but it was serviceable.


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    About Wizard Schools reading the examples they are basically like classic D&D schools but with other scopes. Instead of being focused in the natures of spell effect they are focused in a group of specific spell utilities. It's no more "wizard the studies the nature of summon spells" but "wizard that specialized in spells useful for war" or "wizard that specialized in spells useful for contructions" or "wizard that specialized in spells useful for contructions biology" and so on.
    It looks like a larger version of sorcerer's granted spells but instead of count from the "origin" count for the "destination".

    My afraid of this change is that we can have a smaller set of school spells once this doesn't look like that will be a trait in the spells but in the "subclass".

    Quote:
    Divine Lance now does 2d4 spirit damage, and can affect anything that isn’t a rock, and you can sanctify it if you’re unholy to make it do more to certain targets.

    I have mixed things about Divine Lance being 2d4 instead of 1d4+casting stat. For one side this makes the 1º spell level/rank of Divine Lance weaker (diminish the minimum damage) but for other side allows warpriests and battle oracles to use it as ranged "secondary" weapon that doesn't need to draw and without loosing damage because you choose to not max you key stat.

    About Talismans they don't excite me at all. They probably still be forget due being consumable that someone put in the weapon/armor to use in some specific situation but will forget about them (IMO they need to be permanents that compete with spellhearts).

    Once again: Finally we have Reinforcing (Shield) Runes!!!


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    The core rules aren't really changing, just the options thanks. It's a mega-errata, and maybe 2.25, even, but it's not a new edition.

    To be fair, that's about what 3.5 did back in D&D days and I think most people saw that as a new edition.


    magnuskn wrote:
    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    The core rules aren't really changing, just the options thanks. It's a mega-errata, and maybe 2.25, even, but it's not a new edition.
    To be fair, that's about what 3.5 did back in D&D days and I think most people saw that as a new edition.

    3.0->3.5 had multiple far more fundamental changes (skill system, action economy, weapon sizes) and a lot of changes that, while small, resulted in a very different experience (two examples: 3.0 DR that was "you can't hurt it, lol" in some cases and 3.0 spells turning every combat in the game into "you either cast haste on your side of this fight or this is over").

    I'd say PF2R is PF2.25, given the fact that action economy, skill system and stuff like sizes or how armor/weapons function doesn't seem to change.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
    magnuskn wrote:
    Kobold Catgirl wrote:
    The core rules aren't really changing, just the options thanks. It's a mega-errata, and maybe 2.25, even, but it's not a new edition.
    To be fair, that's about what 3.5 did back in D&D days and I think most people saw that as a new edition.

    3.0->3.5 had multiple far more fundamental changes (skill system, action economy, weapon sizes) and a lot of changes that, while small, resulted in a very different experience (two examples: 3.0 DR that was "you can't hurt it, lol" in some cases and 3.0 spells turning every combat in the game into "you either cast haste on your side of this fight or this is over").

    I'd say PF2R is PF2.25, given the fact that action economy, skill system and stuff like sizes or how armor/weapons function doesn't seem to change.

    Probably true enough. :) The changes in the Remaster seem to be still under what you just described for 3.5, but still more than people did expect so far.


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    YuriP wrote:
    Gortle wrote:

    There is a full document of all changes here

    From reddit

    Ha! I'm almost forgetting.

    Orc will now be common ancestry. That's a cool change but I still think how tense will be their relationship to dwarves?

    2e's done a lot with that.

    LO: Legends has said that Taargick, the great king who first led the dwarves to the surface, died with regrets about not finding a better way with the Orcs than genocidal violence - something I expect the upcoming Sky King's Tomb to potentially wrangle with. The same book has the ruler of Dongun Hold aspiring to somehow mend things with Belkzen, but knowing that reactionary elements of her society would balk at the move.

    That story isn't universal, though. The Matanji Orcs are respected across the Mwangi Expanse and have no animosity with either the Mbe'ke or Taralu Dwarves. The Kulenett and Pahmet Dwarves loathe the undead, but have no real published material aiming them at Orcs whatsoever. G&G even tells us the two Ancestries cooperated in their rise to the surface on the continent of Arcadia!

    So you can definitely make a Dwarf raised to fear Orcs, or an Orc who's faced violence from Dwarves... but you could also play an Mbe'ke diplomat fluent in Orcish, or an Orc Gunslinger whose rifle was a gift from their aoptive Dwarf godmother.


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    YuriP wrote:
    About Talismans they don't excite me at all. They probably still be forget due being consumable that someone put in the weapon/armor to use in some specific situation but will forget about them (IMO they need to be permanents that compete with spellhearts).

    But the whole point of talismans were to be "scrolls for martials" – i.e. consumables that let you do a cool thing once. The problem is that the cool thing they let you do is usually really, really underwhelming.


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    Some more changes/info from the discord:

    - crossbows are now their own weapon group with a bleed-based crit spec (probably like knives)
    - we won't see many spells changed to a variable action cost
    - the whole half-elf/orc deal is a versatile heritage that will open up other mixed ancestry options in the future (half-dwarves were mentioned) and has some advice on how to do so now

    There is also some very unsubtle hinting going on that hammer/flail crit specs now force a save instead of auto-succeeding.

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