Dear Paizo, please don't make us do this anymore


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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It's been a while since I last played my elemental sorcerer, but when I did I had recently gotten my hands on the dragon form spell, which polymorphs you into a dragon battle form with a variety of natural attacks that all do more or less the same damage, and with a variety of breath weapons.

One of these is the Brass dragon form, whose breath weapon deals 15d4 damage. I ask you, who wants to roll and count that many d4s? No-one should ever need to roll more than 4d4, tops. If you need more damage than that, use half as many d8s instead or something. Or just use d6es.

Ideally, only d6es should be used en masse as well, and maybe d10s (despite them being abominations unto Plato) because they're both available in bulk. But d4s have the additional advantage of being really inconvenient to roll and count.


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I wish someone would invent a networked series of devices that could easily calculate such things for us.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have to agree, when the number of dice for a roll gets out of hand it's no longer cool and fun, it's a chore. The distribution curve is also extremely weighted toward the center, so it's extra annoying to do all the work to roll and count up and then find you're one point off from the last time you did it, and the time before that.

Personally, I'd like it if the number of dice for a roll never goes beyond ~8. Assuming each player has a couple of each die, you can round up a full hand from everyone without resorting to rolling multiple times.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

*holds phone up with dice rolling app*

You use your dice? Those are like kids' toys!


You guys roll physical dice? Funny.


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I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.


Ravingdork wrote:

*holds phone up with dice rolling app*

You use your dice? Those are like kids' toys!

But they are fun kid's toys.

Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

*holds phone up with dice rolling app*

You use your dice? Those are like kids' toys!

But they are fun kid's toys.

Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.

Legos have finally met their match: Behold the mighty D4, the most deadly dice in the world, and is every bit Lego's equal.

But more seriously, complaining about rolling and counting dice, in a game of rolling and counting dice, is just plain silly.


Staffan Johansson wrote:

It's been a while since I last played my elemental sorcerer, but when I did I had recently gotten my hands on the dragon form spell, which polymorphs you into a dragon battle form with a variety of natural attacks that all do more or less the same damage, and with a variety of breath weapons.

One of these is the Brass dragon form, whose breath weapon deals 15d4 damage. I ask you, who wants to roll and count that many d4s? No-one should ever need to roll more than 4d4, tops. If you need more damage than that, use half as many d8s instead or something. Or just use d6es.

Ideally, only d6es should be used en masse as well, and maybe d10s (despite them being abominations unto Plato) because they're both available in bulk. But d4s have the additional advantage of being really inconvenient to roll and count.

That's diceist. The D8, D12, and D20 have souls too. Families, even!

If you're really upset about having to mass up, roll, and count 15 different D4s, you can just do what I do, and just roll "sets," and add them all together. 3 Sets of 4 dice rolls, 1 Set of 3 dice rolls. Since you have to add them all together anyway, it's the same result, but easier to calculate, mass up, and roll. Not that bad, really.


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Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

Liberty's Edge

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Counterpoint: rolling a ton of dice rules. Source: I recently finished a 1e campaign as a kineticist, and getting to roll 18d6 every round was a total blast.

*rimshot*


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As someone who like rolling fistfuls of dice: yeah, 15 is is excessive. There's nothing wrong with XdY+Z (hell, heal and harm are like this). Counting that many dice takes a lot of table time. There's nothing wrong with making fireball do 3d6+12, with heighten 1d6+4; you still have big numbers and multiple dice, but it's way faster


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beowulf99 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

Mythender.

Theme Pitch: Suplex Thor through a mountain backed by blaring heavy metal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

We have an open discord channel for excessively high dice rolls.

Personally I wince every time a pointy caltrop flang dice hits my snazzy table I bought because Wyrmwood has a 3 year waiting list.

Dice I hate rolling:
Percentile
D4
D3
D2
D8
D100's (ask your parents if you don't know what this one is)

Dice I don't mind rolling and will throw a fistful of:
D10's
D12's
D6's
D20


Alchemic_Genius wrote:
As someone who like rolling fistfuls of dice: yeah, 15 is is excessive. There's nothing wrong with XdY+Z (hell, heal and harm are like this). Counting that many dice takes a lot of table time. There's nothing wrong with making fireball do 3d6+12, with heighten 1d6+4; you still have big numbers and multiple dice, but it's way faster

Sounds like a reasonable houserule for those who don't like rolling fistfuls of dice.

More than (some limit) of dice and you remove them in pairs and replace the dice with the expected value of the two dice removed - which is always one higher than the die size.

So if you don't want to roll more than 5 dice, and you need to roll 15d4:

Expected value of 2d4 is 5.
Remove 5 pairs of 2d4 and replace it with 5 +5 dice bonus = +25

So now you can roll 5d4+25 instead of 15d4.


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15d4 ⇒ (2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 4, 2, 2, 4, 3, 3) = 32
15d4 ⇒ (2, 1, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 1, 1) = 39
15d4 ⇒ (1, 3, 4, 1, 4, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4, 4, 2, 4) = 42

5d4 + 25 ⇒ (3, 2, 3, 1, 3) + 25 = 37
5d4 + 25 ⇒ (3, 4, 3, 2, 3) + 25 = 40
5d4 + 25 ⇒ (4, 4, 1, 3, 3) + 25 = 40

Grand Lodge

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BAH! You young'uns have it too soft!
In my day, we had to roll our dice in 6 feet of snow... up hill...both ways...and GET OFF MY LAWN!!


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Xenocrat wrote:
I wish someone would invent a networked series of devices that could easily calculate such things for us.

Such a thing would be heresy. Computers, unlike non-d10 dice, have no souls and should not be relied on for determining important things.


Xenocrat wrote:
I wish someone would invent a networked series of devices that could easily calculate such things for us.

You speak MADNESS!


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Losonti wrote:

Counterpoint: rolling a ton of dice rules. Source: I recently finished a 1e campaign as a kineticist, and getting to roll 18d6 every round was a total blast.

*rimshot*

Fistfuls of d6es are OK, because they roll well and are easily available in boxes of 12 big or 36 small ones (that way, you can even roll matching dice!). But d4s aren't so much rolled as tossed up in the air, and they usually only come one to a 7-dice set. Heck, I'd have to scour my collection to find 15d4, and they certainly wouldn't match one another.


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I am vehemently against this idea. I own over a hundred sets of dice and gosh darn it I want an excuse to use as many of them as possible.

So, with that said, I want to respectfully ask that Paizo not only ignore this request but also amp things up going forward. I want to see as many stat blocks as possible with 10+ dice being used for damage and other effects.

/Only mostly joking

Liberty's Edge

Staffan Johansson wrote:
Fistfuls of d6es are OK, because they roll well and are easily available in boxes of 12 big or 36 small ones (that way, you can even roll matching dice!). But d4s aren't so much rolled as tossed up in the air, and they usually only come one to a 7-dice set. Heck, I'd have to scour my collection to find 15d4, and they certainly wouldn't match one another.

Oh, definitely. I happen to be lucky that one of the players at my table both hoards and makes dice, so there's always plenty of any given type on hand.

Still mostly d6s, though.


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"I don't have 15 d4s, so can I just roll a few then assume the rest are average damage?" is the sort of thing house rules are for.

Like 5d4+25 instead of 15d4 seems reasonable if rolling that many dice isn't fun for you. But since it might be fun for others, it's not the sort of thing you design the game around.


You can also roll level dice multiplied by the spell level.
Fireball: 2d6 x level damage
Lightning Bolt : 1d12 x (level + 1) damage

It would give the exact same average, max and min damage but with a far greater variation making the roll far more important.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Lightning Bolt : 1d12 x (level + 1) damage

For those who really want to do 12 damage with a level 5 spell.


breithauptclan wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Lightning Bolt : 1d12 x (level + 1) damage
For those who really want to do 12 damage with a level 5 spell.

I mean, that's still possible rolling all the dice, just improbable. I had a player who once rolled 47 damage on a lightning bolt.


Kelseus wrote:
I mean, that's still possible rolling all the dice, just improbable. I had a player who once rolled 47 damage on a lightning bolt.

Yeah. And like SuperBidi says, that one die roll will be very important. So if that is what you are looking for, that would do the job. It is also the most likely way of doing 72 damage with a level 5 Lightning Bolt.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Losonti wrote:

Counterpoint: rolling a ton of dice rules. Source: I recently finished a 1e campaign as a kineticist, and getting to roll 18d6 every round was a total blast.

*rimshot*

Fistfuls of d6es are OK, because they roll well and are easily available in boxes of 12 big or 36 small ones (that way, you can even roll matching dice!). But d4s aren't so much rolled as tossed up in the air, and they usually only come one to a 7-dice set. Heck, I'd have to scour my collection to find 15d4, and they certainly wouldn't match one another.

It's not very hard to find the dice and they aren't very expensive. You can get 25 of the same color dice on amazon for $6.51 and you can buy a 7-dice set at a local dollar tree for $1.25.

breithauptclan wrote:
Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.

For those that don't like the pyramid shape, they make a rectangle 'log' type that is numbered on the long sides and are rounded on the end so you get that roll people want.


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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.
For those that don't like the pyramid shape, they make a rectangle 'log' type that is numbered on the long sides and are rounded on the end so you get that roll people want.

Yes. Those are absolutely fantastic. I recently bought two 10-packs of those. But they aren't always easy to find and I don't think I have ever seen them as part of a dice set - so they always mismatch the rest of the set.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Lightning Bolt : 1d12 x (level + 1) damage
For those who really want to do 12 damage with a level 5 spell.

Lightning Bolt is the kind of spell that really makes me wish sometimes that casters had more static damage modifiers.


breithauptclan wrote:
graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.
For those that don't like the pyramid shape, they make a rectangle 'log' type that is numbered on the long sides and are rounded on the end so you get that roll people want.
Yes. Those are absolutely fantastic. I recently bought two 10-packs of those. But they aren't always easy to find and I don't think I have ever seen them as part of a dice set - so they always mismatch the rest of the set.

True, it's harder to get an exact match. It's easier to get 1 1d8 that has 2 sets of 1-4 on it in the same color. I have several of those type of dice in black with red numbers that match my 'normal' set of dice with the only difference being that are smaller than my regular d8's though I find that a plus as I can tell the d8's apart from the 8 sided d4's.


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Ravingdork wrote:
*holds phone up with dice rolling app*

The question being, will your phone receive the same kind of exemplary punishment, that many lucky-dice-turned-unlucky have ever received? :D


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
I ask you, who wants to roll and count that many d4s?

Me.

More dice, better. It'd have to be upwards of 30 before I'd start to get bored and experience diminishing returns of joy.


In 13th age, all damage rolls were XdY, where X is your level and Y is your die size.

The game rules recommended just taking average damage after a certain level if people stopped enjoying rolling that many dice all the time.


graystone wrote:

...

breithauptclan wrote:
Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.
For those that don't like the pyramid shape, they make a rectangle 'log' type that is numbered on the long sides and are rounded on the end so you get that roll people want.

Now I have to try to get a complete set of log-form dice!

Scarab Sages

I'll often roll d8s when I need extra d4s and just half them. Inevitably, though, if there's a player at the table who isn't used to that, they'll ask why I'm rolling d8s for something that does d4s, and I have to explain it.

But on the other side, I have a d6 that has 1-3 twice for a d3, but then if I roll that I get questions about why I'm not halving the result.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What is it with young whipper-snappers these days; not even willing to work hard and earn their numbers by rolling fist-fulls of dice like good, proper roleplayers? Like God intended! Good Lordy what is the world coming to?

:P XD


I prefer using dice made from semiprecious stones, so I want to avoid rolling scads of them unless they're d10s.


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Gisher wrote:
graystone wrote:

...

breithauptclan wrote:
Well, other than the caltrop shaped d4s. Those are annoying.
For those that don't like the pyramid shape, they make a rectangle 'log' type that is numbered on the long sides and are rounded on the end so you get that roll people want.
Now I have to try to get a complete set of log-form dice!

They do make them [d3-d20] and they make radial fin types that go d3 to d100. Heck, there is even a chess set that you roll on their sides to get your roll and a teardrop set.

On d4's they have dreidels, footballs, They even make a Pentagonal Icositetrahedron which is simultaneously a d4, a d6 and a d8 [rolled it doesn't stop with a side up but stops on a point with 3 sides and each side is a different die result].

PS: if you have access to a 3D printer, many of these can be made with them.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
PS: if you have access to a 3D printer, many of these can be made with them.

A prison guard friend of mine says convict roleplayers use "origami" dice they make themselves.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have a set of 12 sided D4s. They roll better.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
beowulf99 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

If you don't want to roll fistfuls of dice, spellcasters may not be for you...


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Coming soon: dragons with 26d2 breath weapons.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

If you don't want to roll fistfuls of dice, spellcasters may not be for you...

Actually, at high level, martials also roll tons of dice.

If you combine:
- d20 to hit
- 4 dice of weapon
- up to 3 dice of elemental runes
- 0-4 additional dice (it's possible to go over that but for non repeatable attacks only).
That's 8-12 dice per attacks.

Spellcasters roll more dice at once, but not in total.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Spellcasters roll more dice at once, but not in total.

And then you need to account for the fact that martials often make more than one Strike in a round, whereas most spellcasters will only cast one spell. Net result? Martials sling more dice around than casters.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

If you don't want to roll fistfuls of dice, spellcasters may not be for you...

Actually, at high level, martials also roll tons of dice.

If you combine:
- d20 to hit
- 4 dice of weapon
- up to 3 dice of elemental runes
- 0-4 additional dice (it's possible to go over that but for non repeatable attacks only).
That's 8-12 dice per attacks.

Spellcasters roll more dice at once, but not in total.

And factoring in doubling that number for crits, yeah, I see your point. I'm still stuck in a 1st edition mindset that higher level warriors get more static boni instead.


Ravingdork wrote:
graystone wrote:
PS: if you have access to a 3D printer, many of these can be made with them.
A prison guard friend of mine says convict roleplayers use "origami" dice they make themselves.

Can confirm, they also make 'die spinners' that have an evenly split pie chart and a little clock-hand looking thing in the middle, sorta like a Twister Spinner but with numbers instead of colors.

You make do with what you have, and desperation is the mother of creation/creativity!


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QuidEst wrote:
Coming soon: dragons with 26d2 breath weapons.

I have an old coffee can full of pennies. That should work.


Leon Aquilla wrote:

Dice I hate rolling:

D100's (ask your parents if you don't know what this one is)

Besmirch not the name of the mighty (and terribly unstable and difficult to read) golf ball.


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Val'bryn2 wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Saedar wrote:

I dunno. I have 180d6 (physical) for one specific game.

Also: Rolling apps.

Hmm. Imperial Guard player perhaps? There is a guy at my FLGS who carried a fanny pack of dice, and removed them as his guardsman were killed. Nobody ever wanted to call him on exactly how many dice were in that bag.

On Topic: I think 6-8 of pretty much any die size is about the most I will roll physically. Though all of my gaming for the last... forever... has been via Foundry, so no physical rolling anyway.

If you don't want to roll fistfuls of dice, spellcasters may not be for you...

Actually, at high level, martials also roll tons of dice.

If you combine:
- d20 to hit
- 4 dice of weapon
- up to 3 dice of elemental runes
- 0-4 additional dice (it's possible to go over that but for non repeatable attacks only).
That's 8-12 dice per attacks.

Spellcasters roll more dice at once, but not in total.

And factoring in doubling that number for crits, yeah, I see your point. I'm still stuck in a 1st edition mindset that higher level warriors get more static boni instead.

Paizo thought ahead on crits actually. You don't roll double the number of dice, you just roll damage and double after the fact. The book calls out that you can roll double the dice if you'd like, but recommends doing that when you've got a lower number of dice to roll.

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