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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. * Venture-Agent, Louisana—Denham Springs 1,733 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 20 Organized Play characters.


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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All the rules you need to GM were in the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, the 1e Gamemastery Guide was more akin to D&D's Unearthed Arcana, new subsystems that while they did, in many ways, improve the game, they weren't essential to running it.

The Bestiary is a GM book the PCs shouldn't be memorizing it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

People seem to believe that I'm being unreasonably angry. I am glad to have the rules now, my main issue was before the preview was released, where I had to wait 6 months for rules on how to build an npc or monster.

I stand by my belief that not putting something as basic as npc creation in the core rulebook is bad game design, because it is something a GM needs if they are to write their own stories. It may not have been promised as such, but you can't really argue that they wanted to playtest the rules before putting them live when they clearly state they used the rules for making the bestiary.

Grognard, who do you expect would need NPC and monster creation rules, but not want the Bestiary?

Paizo had gotten away from its predecessor's assumption of 3 core rulebooks, I'm sorry to see them heading back in that direction.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

But instead of more monsters, we had multiple variations that basically amount to added class levels. We have 3 orcs, 3 drow, 2 goblins, 3 vampires, etc. That eats up page count,

Pathfinder 2e was released on August 1st 2019, the Gamemastery Guide where we were promised the guide for making NPCs has a release date of January 2020. While they have given us the basics early, they did, in fact, ask us to wait 6 months for official rules. And as for needing time to hammer out kinks, to test it in live waters, that's why they had a playtest, that they asked people to pay for, going by the copy of the playtest rulebook on my shelf.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Vampire stat block, it says that they created two of the variant vampires as entirely new monsters using guidelines for new monsters, rather than applying a template, before giving basic adjustments for a vampire template

And I had been checking, I just gave up a little too soon

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just checked the blog, and I am enjoying it so far, got some fun ideas brewing, so time to get to work on building some.

Silver Crusade

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Thank you, everyone, for your replies. I disagree with the view they should be in the GMG, from 3rd edition to Starfinder, they've always been in the bestiary, monster manual or alien archive, but that would have been a minor issue if they had released the GMG in a timely manner. It's bad game design to directly reference rules you won't be publishing for half a year.

I suppose I was thinking of baseline orc as just racial modifications, like how goblins have a race write-up in the Core Rulebook, and example monsters in the Bestiary. At any rate, it'll be fun to make some NPCs now.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Trying to build some NPCs, is the Orc Brute from the Bestiary the baseline orc? It doesn't seem to have class features, so I guess it's basically as if they still had just a basic warrior class.

And second, more of a pointed question for Paizp, why didn't y'all release the monster building rules in the Bestiary, considering you SPECIFICALLY called out these rules in, at least, the Vqmpire monster entry? I seem to remember a post saying that a preview of the rules will be released before the Gamemastery Guide, but I haven't seen it yet

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A variant skeletal champion, the vermin feasted on the flesh, or one of the unkillable zombies that has a swarm that took up residence for the same reason?

Silver Crusade 1/5 Venture-Agent, Louisana—Denham Springs aka Val'bryn2

Just wondering if we've gotten the pregens yet for Society play, I'm running my Lodge's first 2e game tomorrow and wanted to have some extra characters on hand for walkins

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

#9 is horrible and nonsense. Who are you to force the way my character acts? Especially since I can, in this game, have a demon, a creature formed from the sins of a mortal, but I can't stop myself from attacking a lich?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No, Paizo, in its infinite wisdom, decided to hold off on releasing how to build monsters and any NPC in general until 5 or so months after general release.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Takamorisan wrote:
Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place.
That isn't true though, as Second Darkness makes this explicit, they were evil then became Drow.

Name them.

Silver Crusade

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I can understand the sentiment, and being unable to just accept "you can do it differently " as an answer, because everything Paizo puts out for the race in question, official art, face cards, miniatures, and pawns, all will look that one specific way. Yes, I can get a miniature and paint it any way I like, but I also like using the paizo miniatures because they are usually beautifully done.

The other reason is, as has been said, conformity of experience.

Besides, half the people on here are screaming dark is not evil, but I don't see them having a problem with how demons and drow have darkness as a spell like ability, amongst other evil races. Should we replace it with Daylight?

Silver Crusade

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Yes, something like that would have eased a lot of my problems with the ending, because instead of any type of closure, we're left with, basically, "yeah, the Whispering Tyrant is still kicking, he just isn't seeking to continue for reasons you don't need to know". Instead of actual closure, we're given a little adventure that seems to be meant for the heroes, with the purpose of showing what life's like in a nation that's about to be destroyed, when they're supposed to be kinda on the clock to, you know, stop a freaking invasion.

Silver Crusade

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Regarding the matriarchy of the drow, that's a holdover from when drow were more religiously devoted to spiders, female spiders being generally larger. It also began in Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms. It should change, though, mostly because drow should be an Equal Opportunity Evil.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Or perhaps the Change is enacted because the elves are literally, as a race, a battle in proxy between celestials and demons, being created by both, with a recessive gene that the descent to evil activates. A little tinkering to give them more demonic powers, and drow can basically become a demonic sorcerer bloodline writ large. From there, the drow can continue as evil or redeem themselves.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Agreed,black isn't a good color for evolution. I could see milky white or chalky white due to lack of melanin, or stone grey to better blend into the stones.

Silver Crusade

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So you make the goblins, who have continued to be, in paizo's own words, "insane, dangerous parasites", accepted, while kobolds who have actually striven to become accepted are left as low-level cannon fodder. Yeah, that's moving the setting forward.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, because you're spitting on the continuity of the setting. I don't care that you don't like it being easy to recognize a race as evil on sight, that works fine for your home games and home settings, but Paizo has, from day one, maintained that elves who become evil, or evil enough, get transformed into drow by the elven deities. I personally like a setting that maintains continuity, which is why I was against the inclusion of goblins as a playable race when the kobolds have actually made strides to be accepted in the Inner Sea, when the goblins have not done near as much to be accepted.

Silver Crusade

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I would like to suggest something for the writing going forward, when you're writing about specific groups of a race, for example the Gnolls from Legacy of Fire, specify it with language like "these gnolls". We had issues higher up with the discussion between the apparently misogynistic early Gnolls and the Gnolls from the Monster Codex being matriarchal. It creates confusion when the lore being contradictory.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One nitpick about Dark Elves in Dragonlance, it's not just turning to Evil. Neutral wizards or clerics were also branded dark elves.

I don't know about the baby blue, but allowing a range of vibrant colors could work, like on snakes and certain fish, it's a warning, "I'm deadly and I will end you, just try me". I figured the ebon skin, and I'm talking real ebon skin, not anything on humans, was a mark of their demonic patroness from the beginning. Lolth was generally presented as a black widow spider, and her chosen took her coloration, black skin and red eyes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

True, legends of the Native Americans, Greek myth and Celtic myth all have it, at a very quick tally.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Skinwalker might be best worked as a subclass of wizard or sorcerer, with a bigger focus on polymorph spells, or,ideally, a tradition of druids with additional wild shape abilities.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For an aberration ancestry, you have a lot of examples in Lovecraft. Maybe make the ancestry feats for them deal with physical or mental changes rather than refining skills. Let them choose one of the core races as the base, and the aberration slowly overwrites it

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
while we're at it, why hasn't there been wolffolk in anything ever? cats, lizards and hyenas but no doggos

Actually there was, it just wasn't very popular. Not pathfinder, but the lupines , I believe they were from Mystara.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would be firmly for it, because unlike goblins and gnolls as groups, we have seen numerous groups of kobolds working in cooperation with general races. And yes, the core races have a bit of a bias against monstrous races, generally because of what said monsters were getting up to.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm going to agree, a sidebar doesn't take up much space. A GM can make up new orders, but why should a GM be expected to create content to make an archetype they paid money to get useable?
When I buy an RPG book, I know errata and FAQs will change some things. But I still expect it to be useable right out of the box.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Perhaps I should clarify, my character wouldn't kill a gnoll because "Hey, that furry thing with the hyena face looks weird, kill it" it's because "that's a gnoll, they worship literal demons, engage in cannibalism and slavery, I think a little wariness entirely appropriate, all things considered". There are actual tangible forces of evil in Pathfinder, and gnolls have, as a race, seemed to embrace the evil instead of the good. I won't go hunting them down, but when encountered, they should be considered a threat until THEY prove otherwise. Yes, humans can be evil too, but they can also be good. So far, the "best" gnoll that has been presented is evil, but not immediately hostile.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is true, admittedly my own interest in this comes from Lord of the Rings. No one has had issues with the orcs from there being uniformly evil, and that story became one of the grandfathers of Pathfinder.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Probably. I think the main 2 things keeping him in power are his enormous personal power and the fact that, as long as he created the undead, they are bound to him. They probably don't like it, but they are not given any choice.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

For someone concerned about the lore of things you do seem insistent on referring to it as "fluff".

Val'bryn2 wrote:
make them matriarchal, since hyenas are.
Pretty sure they are.
Quote:
I would hate having to tell a new player that yes, his paladin fell for attacking a cannibalistic slaver because it's not actually evil.
You don't have to worry about that.

Pathfinder gnolls have been called out as fiercely misogynistic in the writeups, stating they see females in one of three categories: priestess of Lamashtu, mother, or sacrifice to Lamashtu.

I stand corrected, they have changed that in the new edition.

Silver Crusade

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As to the artifacts, no, came in from 3.5, it's just that I would have sworn, and have, that in earlier editions Major artifacts had exactly one method of destruction. Minor artifacts were no more durable than a standard magic item. Lost all my 3.5 and earlier books in a flood a couple years back, so haven't gotten to check.

And let's step back from calling it racial profiling. Don't want to get the thread locked. But would you then say that Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas are all evil, for not sitting down to talk to the orcs? Sam, for killing his way through a tower solely because they took Frodo after he was poisoned by Shelob?

Based on how things are sounding, a lot of people think a paladin should fall for winning initiative. After all, he was unprovoked.

Keftiu, based on your statement, would it be wrong to kill a ghoul? It's a person.

Silver Crusade

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That's why I withdrew my initial disagreement on them having ancestries, I had been operating on the mistake that they were rewriting the fluff, misunderstanding some players as to the new fluff on the goblins. Oh, one piece of fluff that should change, make them matriarchal, since hyenas are.

As I said, I prefer heroic fantasy, where there aren't as many "gotcha" moments regarding the alignment of the enemy. I've also been on these forums, both here and on the WotC forums for 19 years now, and I've read about a lot of GMs who would happily pull those with even greater regularity if such a shift in lore happened. I just recently realized that the destruction method of all artifacts, not just major ones, had shifted to where they all have individual methods, I would hate having to tell a new player that yes, his paladin fell for attacking a cannibalistic slaver because it's not actually evil.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rise was both 3.5 and Pathfinder. Any information I used from it comes from the Anniversary Edition, which was fully Pathfinder.

And okay, from some of what I had been hearing about the goblins made it seem that, as a race, they were little more than ugly halflings now. Glad the new changes aren't as wide spread as I thought.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
And do we have a refutation of the write-ups for the goblin, saying that these other goblins don't react that way? We have canon information saying this is how goblins act. It's not how Inner Sea goblins, or Tian goblins, or goblins on Castrovel act, it's how goblins period act.
From where?

As you've been told, Rise of the Runelords and Inner Sea World Guide, the latter in regards to being described as insane destructive parasites, singularly eager in the pursuit of sadism and cruelty.

Silver Crusade

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And you miss my point regarding Ironfang Invasion. You're saying goblins have become accepted based on the accomplishment of one tiny tribe, an individual, and a party of four, while I countered that their good deeds will go practically unnoticed in the way of an invasion displacing a lot of people. Similar to how, in Forgotten Realms, people are still wary about accepting orcs, after Obould invaded and set up a kingdom, but a few orcs have been friendly so you're being horrible for holding thousands of years against them.

Having them available as ancestries isn't, on further reflection, saying that they will be accepted everywhere and by everyone, so I think I'm more okay with it now. It's just blindly accepting them after, as I said, millenia of them being little psychopaths that irks me, because I like setting continuity.

Silver Crusade

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Kijimuna is goblinoid, not a goblin. We're talking specific race, unless you want to start making claims that a red dragon isn't evil because a silver isn't.

And do we have a refutation of the write-ups for the goblin, saying that these other goblins don't react that way? We have canon information saying this is how goblins act. It's not how Inner Sea goblins, or Tian goblins, or goblins on Castrovel act, it's how goblins period act.

Silver Crusade

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Gloom wrote:

Treating all members of a race as evil as a preemptive measure to gain initiative in a fight may be a good shortcut for your character, but will also result in you committing murderous acts.

Not all Gnolls, Drow, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc are evil.

If you want to play murder-hobo and attack them on sight regardless of circumstance then it's not that far from rounding up their women and children and executing them.

You're describing an evil aligned character and if that's what you want to play then you're free to do it. Killing monstrous races on sight is within character for an evil aligned character.

Armageddon Echo, pg 58. There are no good drow.

Edit:checking your post, I was a little hard line on it. Can we all agree that Good drow and gnolls would be exceptionally, EXCEPTIONALLY rare?

Silver Crusade

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I was mistaken about Lamashtu, I misremembered about Cerunnos. Doesn't change the point that demon lords war amongst themselves all the time, just because they end up killing the person they've been trying to kill doesn't make them good. Tar-baphon wouldn't undergo an alignment shift for killing either Razmir or Abrogail of Thrune.

I count three exceptions to the goblin rule. And apparently your GM was running the ice tribe of goblins a lot more friendly and helpful than mine did. And that still means you have three exceptions to the rule proving that goblins can indeed be helpful, except they are very localized aid, whereas goblins also played a major part of the Ironfang Invasion adventure path, showing them as violent, bloodthirsty monsters.

Regarding the cultural stigma, isn't it interesting that said stigma still holds true for goblins on the literal other side of the planet?

I believe you said it to me regarding 2nd Darkness, I return the sentiment: Legacy of Fire was 3.5, not Pathfinder. Still, you're right about them being citizens of Katapesh, so I withdraw some of my arguments against including them as a viable race.

You haven't really shown them to have the not-evil members, all that's been pointed out is that some are willing to ally in the face of a bigger threat.

Silver Crusade

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Lamashtu killed demon lords, doesn't make her good.

The write-up in Rise of the Runelords discussed the goblins as that. The Goblins comic shows them as that, where are the examples of them not being chaotic evil little maniacs? I mean come on, they're supposed to be alchemists now, which requires keeping a formula book, when part of the original Pathfinder specific fluff for goblins is that they believe writing steals the words from your head. That's not given as a specific group of goblins believing that, it's a race-wide superstition. They are described in Pathfinder books as being thought of as "nothing more than murderous pests by most". And what, exactly, happened between the publishing of Rise of the Runelords and now to represent a shift in how goblins are viewed? Goblins or gnolls, either one.

Now, if they made the first adventure path where gnolls/goblins actually play a part as allies, I could understand it, but not when they're basically saying "don't bother learning the lore of the setting, we change it on a whim".

Silver Crusade

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The problem is that Nocticula's conversion wasn't good story. It's also not showing her gain free will. She became redeemed because of a time traveling follower who said she was redeemed. Predestination, she didn't get a choice.

All in all, I just prefer a heroic fantasy game. Yes, I understand that some members of the races will have different alignments. I don't agree, personally, with the way they're changing the fluff for some of the races. I would have much preferred kobolds as a new core race, because Pathfinder Society had a few adventures where kobolds had actually been making friendly advances to the core races. By contrast, from day 1, Pathfinder defined goblins as dangerous, insane, stupid little psychos, until all of a sudden they aren't.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
Funny. Page 68 of Armageddon Echo asks the question are there good drow, and answers No. Flat out No. Which means they ignore their own lore if they say there are.
And there’s a link to a quote from the Creative Director upthread disagreeing.

Yes, where he says that non-outsider non-undead are not inherently evil. Which means outsiders are inherently their alignment. Except the ones who aren't inherently, like the demon lord who feels real sad about what she did and changed her alignment. Whoops. Guess he was wrong about them being inherent.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

58, stupid font and a quick look messed me up. The section Drow of Golarion. A sidebar labeled "Are There Good Drow?"

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:

Incorrect, while most numerous in Katapesh, Gnolls are found throughout Garund, Avistan, and Casmaron.

And let's not forget that the mark of a civilized gnoll is that they make you a slave rather than just eat you.

*points to all the human countries that enforce slavery*

And yet we all agree that it's evil, but just because the gnolls do evil things they aren't evil?

Silver Crusade

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Funny. Page 68 of Armageddon Echo asks the question are there good drow, and answers No. Flat out No. Which means they ignore their own lore if they say there are.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Incorrect, while most numerous in Katapesh, Gnolls are found throughout Garund, Avistan, and Casmaron.

And let's not forget that the mark of a civilized gnoll is that they make you a slave rather than just eat you.

Silver Crusade

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It's not the primary deity of the humans. Lamashtu has been stated to be primary deity of the Gnolls.

Silver Crusade

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I kind of think that worshipping a primal force of evil that exists solely to bring more terrible and Evil spawn into the universe removes the unprompted part of that. I mean, we're getting to the point where you have to sit down with a demon lord for mediation sessions before finding out whether you're justified in stopping it from eating a farmer.

Now, while I appreciate having more options, and no, not all members of a race are going to be evil, I don't think we should be looking at everyone is neutral as a viable standpoint. It's the Drizzt problem. He was interesting(ish) when he was the one Drow who turned his back on the evil ways of his people. Then you started seeing more and more official Good drow characters. I mean, is Paizo going to start introducing Good drow, when they put out the lore that Drow aren't simply an elven surface, but surface elves who get evil enough become Drow?

Silver Crusade

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That could have worked. A last battle, first preventing the minions of the Whispering Tyrant from breaching, then holding him off themselves. If they had an ally who had reverse engineered the Radiant Fire, and they needed to hold Tar-baphon off until they finished the spell, THAT would be a heroic sacrifice.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What evidence? Unless I missed something, the only time someone tried the test of the Starstone in Pathfinder was a background piece where a knight tried to jump the chasm on his horse, and fell to his death. I believe that Paizo never gave us any concrete information on the Starstone Cathedral.

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