Yeah.....Summoner archetype seems niche
What level is synthesis? Would the archetype be viable for that?
Yeah.....Summoner archetype seems nicheWhat level is synthesis? Would the archetype be viable for that?
There is no synthesis feat. At best you have the first level feat that puts you inside the eidolon but prevents you from taking any actions.
Agreed, there is nothing to give you more HP for the shared pool and MAP is shared. This along with not being able to use act together or tandem actions, I just don't see the Eidolon as worth it. Seems directly worse than an AC for most cases. Certainly not many martial builds will want it. Seems the thing if you just want a better familiar rather than partner.So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.That's correct. And since you can't use tandem actions either, things like steed form are near worthless. Between action economy issues, eidolon proficiency not going past expert, and the usual multiclass feat restrictions, it's not one you'll see people use often.
Might try to convince my GM to make the eidolon a minion, that seems like a really obvious fix for something that is otherwise pretty comparable to an animal companion.
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It seems a little backwards in implementation. Like I could see some use for it, but I feel like the main appeal of someone wanting to dabble Summoner is because they want a monster they can fight with... not for occasionally getting some skill bonuses from an alternate stat spread and some other limited utility.
IMO would have been more broadly appealing to try to make the archetype eidolon combat-ready (possibly supported by archetype feats to keep them relevant ala what you do with the AC) and diminish their utility rather than the other way around.
... Between how poor the archetype eidolon is offensively and how poor the summoner itself is with weapons (ironically both in the same way), unfortunately not much in the way of good options to build a character who fights alongside their eidolon in, well, tandem.
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... Between how poor the archetype eidolon is offensively and how poor the summoner itself is with weapons (ironically both in the same way), unfortunately not much in the way of good options to build a character who fights alongside their eidolon in, well, tandem.
But a Sprite can take the archetype and reach the top shelves now! ;)
Student of the staff at 4th level as already mentioned.
Mentioned where? Is that the one that lets you increase the damage die on a staff to 1d6?
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Student of the staff at 4th level as already mentioned.Mentioned where? Is that the one that lets you increase the damage die on a staff to 1d6?
The d6 (along with agile) is one of the baseline perks of Twisting Tree. It also gives your staff parry, trip and reach when used with two hands and lets you switch grips for free when you strike during Cascade.
Student of the staff gives you crit spec, deadly d6 while in arcane cascade and lets you put property runes in your spellbook, which you can impart to a staff when you prepare it.
Student of the staff at 4th level as already mentioned.Mentioned where? Is that the one that lets you increase the damage die on a staff to 1d6?The d6 (along with agile) is one of the baseline perks of Twisting Tree. It also gives your staff parry, trip and reach when used with two hands and lets you switch grips for free when you strike during Cascade.
Student of the staff gives you crit spec, deadly d6 while in arcane cascade and lets you put property runes in your spellbook, which you can impart to a staff when you prepare it.
Ah; thanks for the clarification.
Quick question: Did they manage to add an equivalent of the "ring of wizardry" or is still the arcane the only one meant to get double spells if taken as a dedication?
I'd consider getting a divine/primal dedication to help with heals if by lvl 14 I could have
1x lvl 5 spell
3x lvl 4 spells
3x lvl 3 spells
2x lvl 2 spells
2x lvl 1 spellsStill I don't get the reason they gave only the arcane spellcasters such a magic item.
And what, about using the ring of wizardry with a magus or arcane summoner? Would be possible?
No, there isn't a Ring of Wizardry equivalent for other traditions in this book. And there's nothing from either class's kits that prevent them from using any items, so yeah, Magi and Arcane Summoners can use Rings of Wizardry.
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So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.
They had to do it that way or no one would play a straight summoner if a full caster had a nearly equal eidolon. Product of the way they built the eidolon.
No, there isn't a Ring of Wizardry equivalent for other traditions in this book. And there's nothing from either class's kits that prevent them from using any items, so yeah, Magi and Arcane Summoners can use Rings of Wizardry.Quick question: Did they manage to add an equivalent of the "ring of wizardry" or is still the arcane the only one meant to get double spells if taken as a dedication?
I'd consider getting a divine/primal dedication to help with heals if by lvl 14 I could have
1x lvl 5 spell
3x lvl 4 spells
3x lvl 3 spells
2x lvl 2 spells
2x lvl 1 spellsStill I don't get the reason they gave only the arcane spellcasters such a magic item.
And what, about using the ring of wizardry with a magus or arcane summoner? Would be possible?
I was referring to the fact that they won't have at some point any lvl 1/2/3/4 slots ( as there's a "-" in their spell slots progression ), so the "additional spells slots" would not be compute, since they won't have spells of that level to begin with.
Giving them the possibility to benefit from the ring would be no different from giving it to a class with just the wizard dedication ( being only able to cast cantrips ), wouldn't it?
That IS true, and the language of the class is particular when it comes to spell slots. For the 7th level feature, it says you "gain 2 special 2nd-level spell slots", not "you gain additional" slots.
Mmm. Seems like Rings of Wizardry in particular wouldn't work. You'd probably need a MC dedication in order to benefit from it, then.
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There is a grimoire that gives any prepared spellcaster extra spells, though I don't think it is at the same pace as rings of wizardry.
There is a grimoire that gives any prepared spellcaster extra spells, though I don't think it is at the same pace as rings of wizardry.
Not as many slots, but the actual level for the slot is potentially higher.
14th level, the Endless Grimoire gets you an additional 5th level slot. 18th level gets you an additional 7th level slot.
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No, there isn't a Ring of Wizardry equivalent for other traditions in this book. And there's nothing from either class's kits that prevent them from using any items, so yeah, Magi and Arcane Summoners can use Rings of Wizardry.Quick question: Did they manage to add an equivalent of the "ring of wizardry" or is still the arcane the only one meant to get double spells if taken as a dedication?
I'd consider getting a divine/primal dedication to help with heals if by lvl 14 I could have
1x lvl 5 spell
3x lvl 4 spells
3x lvl 3 spells
2x lvl 2 spells
2x lvl 1 spellsStill I don't get the reason they gave only the arcane spellcasters such a magic item.
And what, about using the ring of wizardry with a magus or arcane summoner? Would be possible?
I was referring to the fact that they won't have at some point any lvl 1/2/3/4 slots ( as there's a "-" in their spell slots progression ), so the "additional spells slots" would not be compute, since they won't have spells of that level to begin with.
Giving them the possibility to benefit from the ring would be no different from giving it to a class with just the wizard dedication ( being only able to cast cantrips ), wouldn't it?
Maybe my semantics are wrong, but my reading of the Ring of Wizardry is that you only need arcane spell casting tradition. As far as I understand, it does not say anything about needing spells of those levels, and I think one of the designers specifically wrote that ring of wizardry works with the magus (don’t quote me, as I cannot remember exactly where I read that).
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Some Eidolon Spoilers:
- The ones from the playtest are still basically the same with some minor adjustments like the roar from beast not needing to share a language and dragon lvl 17 feature cooldown reduced to 1/minute.
- Fey adds enchantment and illusion from Arcane to your primal list and give a few innate spells.
- Anger Phantom have Power Attack and a Rage ability (-2AC to have the boost Eidolon all the time while raging + temporary HP like Barbarian).
- Demon have the evil strikes and an once per hour "hideous laughter"
- Psychopomp have the ghost touch + negative/positive strikes and an once per hour lvl 2 Invisibility that affects the summoner and it at the same time.
- Plant have 2 reach abilities making it able to have 15 reach at lvl 7 and an field of roots that reduces speed and cause some damage.
- Construct have a bonus in the saves against stuff that construct is usually immune (as they are not immune to them), and extra evolutions feats that you can retrain with one day instead of the usual eidolon abilities.
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Agreed, there is nothing to give you more HP for the shared pool and MAP is shared. This along with not being able to use act together or tandem actions, I just don't see the Eidolon as worth it. Seems directly worse than an AC for most cases. Certainly not many martial builds will want it. Seems the thing if you just want a better familiar rather than partner.So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.That's correct. And since you can't use tandem actions either, things like steed form are near worthless. Between action economy issues, eidolon proficiency not going past expert, and the usual multiclass feat restrictions, it's not one you'll see people use often.Agree.
It's a different approach from taking for example the witch dedication, and getting 1 familiar with 1 familiar ability.
A witch dedication + another class feat ( 2 total class feats ) would result into a familiar with 3 familiar abilities. They did more than enough with the summoner dedication.
The eidolon is not going to be used for combat purposes by multiclasses ( I feared it would have turned out into some sort of companion but with a reskinned feature ), though it would be useful to perform double activity during exploration, and stuff like that.
It can't even be used for that. Act together is explicitly the reason states why Summoner can use double exploration activities. The dedication doesn't give that and thus can't do the double exploration.
I think they just didn't know how to do the dedication without making it OP, and so just decided to go the opposite direction with it. I just can't see too many uses of it that either Familiar Master or Beast Master wouldn't be more useful depending on what you are going for.
If you want a demon, or angel, or non riding drake dragon, or psychopomp to be your battle buddy then you need summoner. It'll be more effective than the summon spell equivalent just by way of its stats. This makes summoner more a themes archetype than a power one. Still seems workable though
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Do demons gain different abilities per sin or no?Some Eidolon Spoilers:
** spoiler omitted **
No, the sin is only flavor, the only options that you have is between a wrecker demon that have STR and Constitution as the high stats or a tempter demon that have high DeX and Charisma. But the abilities are all the same for demons.
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Some more spoilers
** spoiler omitted **
Summoner Dedication Feat - what do you get?
-Summon Eidolon for ◆◆◆
-Shared skill proficiencies - Double Exploration
-Eidolon and MC summoner share action pool (no extra ◆'s)
-Combat stats capped at 16, proficiency at trained (until 12th for feat)
Anything else?
Some more spoilers
** spoiler omitted **
Summoner Dedication Feat - what do you get?
-Summon Eidolon for ◆◆◆
-Shared skill proficiencies - Double Exploration
-Eidolon and MC summoner share action pool (no extra ◆'s)
-Combat stats capped at 16, proficiency at trained (until 12th for feat)Anything else?
No double exploration. Extra skill proficiencies based on chosen Eidolon type. Eidolon's 16 stat goes to 18 at 5 separate from the ability boosts it gets at 5/10/15/20.
Some more spoilers
** spoiler omitted **
Summoner Dedication Feat - what do you get?
-Summon Eidolon for ◆◆◆
-Shared skill proficiencies - Double Exploration
-Eidolon and MC summoner share action pool (no extra ◆'s)
-Combat stats capped at 16, proficiency at trained (until 12th for feat)Anything else?
No Double exploration, as that is inside act together. Main stat starts capped at 16 but a lvl 5 becomes 18 as normal.
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With spells like instant armor, elemental annihilation wave, and inner radiance torrent, Iron Man and Super Saiyans are now completely plausible character builds.
"I am Iron Saiyan!" XD
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Did they end up clarifying or explaining anywhere that after a certain point Wave Casters ARE still able to use lower-level Staff Spells that they are incapable of casting due to a lack of any appropriate slots or... was it forgotten?
Forgotten as far as I can tell. That said, since staves are always behind it wouldn't make sense for them to let you fuse a staff into a weapon explicitly to use its spells for spellstriking if you couldn't actually cast any of them.
When the item is in staff form, you can Cast the Spells from the staff and benefit from any other abilities the staff grants. The staff and the weapon share their fundamental runes, using whichever weapon potency and whichever striking rune is higher level. They don’t share any other runes or specific abilities. You can Cast Spells from the staff as part of a Spellstrike even when the staff is in weapon form. Otherwise, you can’t cast the staff’s spells while it’s in weapon form.
As a side note, the feat confirms that someone can prepare a staff for another caster to use. So you can nest staves if you have a caster friend not interested in using one.
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*Reads book*
Man! These new spells are positively sick!
Kudos to all the writers for their monumental creativity!
Did they end up clarifying or explaining anywhere that after a certain point Wave Casters ARE still able to use lower-level Staff Spells that they are incapable of casting due to a lack of any appropriate slots or... was it forgotten?Forgotten as far as I can tell. That said, since staves are always behind it wouldn't make sense for them to let you fuse a staff into a weapon explicitly to use its spells for spellstriking if you couldn't actually cast any of them.
You can Cast Spells from the staff as part of a Spellstrike even when the staff is in weapon form. Otherwise, you can’t cast the staff’s spells while it’s in weapon form.
That argument is a non sequitur: staves have cantrips in them so even is they are unable to use any other spells on it, a fused staff could always be used to cast the cantrip. So that argument doesn't hold much weight. Now I HOPE they intend for you to be able to use such items, but if it's worded like the playtest it's an issue.
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The only mention of staves in relation to rules and functionality is this line at the start of the multiclass section of the book:
A bounded spellcasting archetype allows you to use scrolls, staves, and wands in the same way that a member of a spellcasting class can, and the basic bounded spellcasting feat counts as having a spellcasting class feature.
Otherwise there's no language anywhere talking about how Summoners and Magi interact with staves.
You can take from that what you want.
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With spells like instant armor, elemental annihilation wave, and inner radiance torrent, Iron Man and Super Saiyans are now completely plausible character builds.
"I am Iron Saiyan!" XD
I thought the we can make a Super Saiyan since they put Ki Form in APG and Kame Hame Há could be made with Ki Blast (besides it's a cone attack but with your GM allow to change to line it's easy become's the Goku signature attack :P)
Besides what those spells instant armor, elemental annihilation wave, and inner radiance torrent do?
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Man, a monk caster using time jump is FAST! Two actions for every one I give up? YES PLEASE!
If you don't mind being Stupified 4 (what monk does?), you can cast it three times in a single turn to get 6 move actions. A high level elf monk with Fleet can cover nearly 400 feet in a single round.
Only thing I can think of that's faster is a 20th-level elf monk/barbarian with Fleet and Furious Sprint.
With spells like instant armor, elemental annihilation wave, and inner radiance torrent, Iron Man and Super Saiyans are now completely plausible character builds.
"I am Iron Saiyan!" XD
I thought the we can make a Super Saiyan since they put Ki Form in APG and Kame Hame Há could be made with Ki Blast (besides it's a cone attack but with your GM allow to change to line it's easy become's the Goku signature attack :P)
Besides what those spells instant armor, elemental annihilation wave, and inner radiance torrent do?
Instant armor stores your armor in an extradimensional space. You remain attuned to it, but otherwise gain no benefits while so stowed. You can conjure it from its pocket dimension and don it as a single action.
EAW lets you blast your enemies in a cone, but you can charge it up over the course of two rounds for more damage and area.
IRT let you blast your enemies in a line, but you can charge it up over the course of two rounds for more damage and distance. It also makes you glow, potentially blinding your foes.
Instant armor stores your armor in an extradimensional space. You remain attuned to it, but otherwise gain no benefits while so stowed. You can conjure it from its pocket dimension and don it as a single action.
Put this in a want and you have an Saint Seya Armor Wand! :P
EAW lets you blast your enemies in a cone, but you can charge it up over the course of two rounds for more damage and area
IRT let you blast your enemies in a line, but you can charge it up over the course of two rounds for more damage and distance. It also makes you glow, potentially blinding your foes.
Cool this really looks like a Kama Hame Há/Dragon Slave spell.
IRT let you blast your enemies in a line, but you can charge it up over the course of two rounds for more damage and distance. It also makes you glow, potentially blinding your foes.
Hello, Mr. Lo Pan.
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There's a high level spell that just consumes the life force of your enemies in order to power itself.
It's initial plus ongoing area damage. If it kills somebody, its area expands dramatically. 30-foot radius emanation on casting, and another 20 feet each round provided someone dies from it that round.
Say one mook fails its save and dies, whereas another mook makes his save and survives until the next round. It will become a 70-foot persistent area of death in short order.
Any creatures you personally kill also contributes to the expanding field. What's more, you get to choose who is affected by it, so your allies remain completely unharmed.
Potentially devastating if cast in a populated area with a wide hit point range. So flavorful!!!
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Could I have your reasoning on that pls? Asking because I have a dragon bloodline sorc I'm debating transforming into a dragon eidolon summoner, and I'm on the fence about it.Thanks gang!
Got my shipping confirmation this week - now awaiting my hard copy!
I think my Sorcerer will remain as such then MCD into Summoner (rather than vice versa)!
Sure.
I want the character's spellcasting to supercede the combat efficacy of their eidolon, rather than vice versa. I'm thinking the eidolon's purpose will primarily be a bulwark to hide behind, and secondarily a threatening combatant on the field. This character's spells will still hit hard and last long. I think of it like the Protagonist/Supporting Actor being PC/Eidolon and not Eidolon/PC.
=)
I'm thinking the eidolon's purpose will primarily be a bulwark to hide behind
Isn't a bulwark a bit pointless if it shares your HP and (probably) doens't have much higher AC and saves?
I'm thinking the eidolon's purpose will primarily be a bulwark to hide behindIsn't a bulwark a bit pointless if it shares your HP and (probably) doens't have much higher AC and saves?
Yes. The eidolon has a higher AC than the summoner, but AC in this game isn't sufficiently high for anyone but maybe a dedicated monk or champion to warrant hiding behind in my experience.
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There's a weapon rune that grants your melee weapon a reach of 60 feet! It also has greater version that grants a reach 120 feet.
Hilarious!
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Any stand out feats for Magus? Besides the ones previously mentioned?Arcane fists at 1st.
Magi don't get a level 1 feat. If you want to punch play some human derivative.
Alternatively, you could just live with slightly lower damage and the nonlethal trait for a level. :v
There's a weapon rune that grants your melee weapon a reach of 60 feet! It also has greater version that grants a reach 120 feet.
Hilarious!
If that is easy to get, doubt the archer will be played too much. Why take half strength damage if you can use melee at range.
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Because it takes two actions to make a single strike at 60 feet.