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What might you have titled the thread?
"Starving thieves TPKed my 10th-level party"
Despite there being only three people in the 10th-level party (a champion, a wizard, and a fighter, the last of whom was unconscious and on his way to being buried by his friends*), nobody died in the fight against the four 9th-level bandits. So that title would have been a lie.
The fighter had actually died in an earlier encounter, but since we realized we screwed up the champion's defensive reactions and that he would have lived had we executed those rules correctly, we retconned the death.
It was a great surprise to everyone when he suddenly sprung awake. :D
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What might you have titled the thread?"Starving thieves TPKed my 10th-level party"Despite there being only three people in the 10th-level party (a champion, a wizard, and a fighter, the last of whom was unconscious and on his way to being buried by his friends*), nobody died in the fight against the four 9th-level bandits. So that title would have been a lie.
I call it Marketing. YMMV ;-)
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Despite there being only three people in the 10th-level party (a champion, a wizard, and a fighter, the last of whom was unconscious and on his way to being buried by his friends*), nobody died in the fight against the four 9th-level bandits. So that title would have been a lie.
As opposed to incendiary like the current title.
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The treadmill issue is well known and predates Pathfinder 2E. However, I think this a flaw with the adventure design more so than the system. One of the pitfalls of a system that adds your level (or half level for D&D 4E), is that it can lead to immersive breaking situations like "20th level characters are facing 20th level guards for no reason other than to create a balanced encounter". However, this is just bad and lazy adventure design. High level heroes should only be facing threats worthy of their time. Or if they face weaker threats, such as 20th level party vs city guards, then it should be more of a "see how powerful you've become that you can mop the floor with the same people that gave you trouble X levels ago...". Instead of fighting starving thieves at 10th level, you should be facing devil assassins. Instead of facing city guards at 20th level, you should probably be facing the Eternal Sentries that guard the City of the Gods.
If you want a system where you can throw low level threats at the party for most of the campaign, then Pathfinder 2e doesn't work great for that. You can make troops out of low level threats, but ultimately, I think Pathfinder 2e shines when telling "0 to hero" stories where by the end, the heroes are truly epic individuals that can take on elder dragons, mythic beasts, demon lords, demigods, etc. If you want a more grounded story, then either cap the level your players can reach (campaign ends at 5th/10th level), use no proficiency bonus variant rules, or play a different system. I haven't run or read Agents of Edgewatch, but judging from this thread, perhaps it should have been a level 1-10 AP like some of the newer ones if the AP's story is very grounded.
I think the basic difference between "truly heroic characters" in first edition versus second edition is that the former are able to stack numbers in their specialty so that they simply cannot fail to do whatever it is they have set out to do, the heroes in Pathfinder 2e are able to attempt to do things (with the possibility of failure) that were not previously possible.
Like it doesn't matter how high you got sleight of hand or intimidation in PF1, you still couldn't steal the trousers someone is wearing or scare them literally to death.
"Can accomplish great feats, but sometimes struggles or fails" is more indicative of heroes of legend, since "never fails at what they do" is kind of the province of TTRPGs, comic books, and fanfic.
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I call it Marketing. YMMV ;-)What might you have titled the thread?"Starving thieves TPKed my 10th-level party"Despite there being only three people in the 10th-level party (a champion, a wizard, and a fighter, the last of whom was unconscious and on his way to being buried by his friends*), nobody died in the fight against the four 9th-level bandits. So that title would have been a lie.
Marketing is easy. I helped build a Marketing department from the ground up for years. You just need to add the following five terms to any digital tags: cat, cats, kitten, kittens, cute. Then sit back and watch as your numbers swell. Proceed to sell advertising based on said numbers*.
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"Can accomplish great feats, but sometimes struggles or fails" is more indicative of heroes of legend, since "never fails at what they do" is kind of the province of TTRPGs, comic books, and fanfic.
There's a very practical aspect to this, which is that this is a game, rather than a reality simulator.
One underappreciated fact (and it is a fact since several Paizo people have stated this in many forms) is that "never fails at what they do" became too difficult to write for. When 10% of the characters have a modifier > +20 and 90% have modifiers < +10, it's really hard to set any DC that preserves both the ability of heroes to occasionally fail, but generally succeed. It's limited by math.
Mathematically, the only way to make a fun game where people are neither cakewalking or floundering is to limit the dynamic range of modifiers. PF2 has been designed - not "this emulates real life" design, but "this is the only way that a game works" design - so that once in a while your 20'-vertical, dragon-punching, level 20 monk will stumble will hopping across a puddle. It sux0rz that it's not realistic, but I think the hope is that the GM isn't going to be asking for stupid rolls like "oh, you're eating dinner, let's see if you roll a nat 1 and choke to death" or "oh, you're sleeping, roll a DC 2 pulmonary embolism check to see if you die in your sleep." Basically, narratively, the GM can always limit rolls to only decision points where two relatively equal outcomes are both interesting. I do this all the time - if a party walks into the bar and looks for the bartender, they don't roll Perception, because the outcome where everyone fails (even if it's a 1-in-1,000,000 chance) is an uninteresting outcome.
Could the system as a whole be tweaked a little? I think so. I think if the CS/S and F/CF boundaries were a little wider, it would actually help somewhat, and make the game a little less swingy. But +10/-10 is a nice round number, so until the Great Polydactyly Conspiracy overthrows the current world order and makes us work in base 12 (I think +12/-12 gives a better variance-to-expectation ratio), I think we'll be stuck with this math.
The treadmill issue is well known and predates Pathfinder 2E. However, I think this a flaw with the adventure design more so than the system. One of the pitfalls of a system that adds your level (or half level for D&D 4E), is that it can lead to immersive breaking situations like "20th level characters are facing 20th level guards for no reason other than to create a balanced encounter". However, this is just bad and lazy adventure design. High level heroes should only be facing threats worthy of their time. Or if they face weaker threats, such as 20th level party vs city guards, then it should be more of a "see how powerful you've become that you can mop the floor with the same people that gave you trouble X levels ago...". Instead of fighting starving thieves at 10th level, you should be facing devil assassins. Instead of facing city guards at 20th level, you should probably be facing the Eternal Sentries that guard the City of the Gods.
If you want a system where you can throw low level threats at the party for most of the campaign, then Pathfinder 2e doesn't work great for that. You can make troops out of low level threats, but ultimately, I think Pathfinder 2e shines when telling "0 to hero" stories where by the end, the heroes are truly epic individuals that can take on elder dragons, mythic beasts, demon lords, demigods, etc. If you want a more grounded story, then either cap the level your players can reach (campaign ends at 5th/10th level), use no proficiency bonus variant rules, or play a different system. I haven't run or read Agents of Edgewatch, but judging from this thread, perhaps it should have been a level 1-10 AP like some of the newer ones if the AP's story is very grounded.
If you want to keep the player more as heroes than superheroes, and to be threatened by a large number of lower level opponents even at high level, then you need to look at the optional rules:
Proficiency without level and/or Stamina
That will enable that type of game.
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* Proficiency without levels is a lot closer to 5e, but with much more customizarion. Anyone can fight and be a threat.
All fair comments. But saying its close to D&D5 is fairly insulting to PF2. PF2 is a much better game if you are up for it. Its just if you want to be able to be less concerned about level this is the right way to go about it.
The treadmill issue is well known and predates Pathfinder 2E. However, I think this a flaw with the adventure design more so than the system. One of the pitfalls of a system that adds your level (or half level for D&D 4E), is that it can lead to immersive breaking situations like "20th level characters are facing 20th level guards for no reason other than to create a balanced encounter". However, this is just bad and lazy adventure design. High level heroes should only be facing threats worthy of their time. Or if they face weaker threats, such as 20th level party vs city guards, then it should be more of a "see how powerful you've become that you can mop the floor with the same people that gave you trouble X levels ago...". Instead of fighting starving thieves at 10th level, you should be facing devil assassins. Instead of facing city guards at 20th level, you should probably be facing the Eternal Sentries that guard the City of the Gods.
If you want a system where you can throw low level threats at the party for most of the campaign, then Pathfinder 2e doesn't work great for that. You can make troops out of low level threats, but ultimately, I think Pathfinder 2e shines when telling "0 to hero" stories where by the end, the heroes are truly epic individuals that can take on elder dragons, mythic beasts, demon lords, demigods, etc. If you want a more grounded story, then either cap the level your players can reach (campaign ends at 5th/10th level), use no proficiency bonus variant rules, or play a different system. I haven't run or read Agents of Edgewatch, but judging from this thread, perhaps it should have been a level 1-10 AP like some of the newer ones if the AP's story is very grounded.
If you want to keep the player more as heroes than superheroes, and to be threatened by a large number of lower level opponents even at high level, then you need to look at the optional rules:
Proficiency without level and/or Stamina
That will enable that type of game.
Yeah I mentioned that at the end of my post but I misremembered the variant name. The proficiency without level variant will help with some of those issues but I also think depending on how grounded a story you want, ending the campaign at an earlier level works well too either by itself or in conjunction with the variant rule. Not every campaign needs to go to 20
Interesting arguments made here. Lots to think about.
I find most GMs aren't actually that interested in running crazy high-powered games, all the bookkeeping, contentions and concerns with verisimilitude quickly take more time off the table than most are comfortable with, yet the game is firmly within superhuman territory for over half of the level progression (Arguably somewhere between levels 5~10); this is what leads to the conflicting schools of thought that still wants the world to feel deadly and scale with their grandeur (aka "an arch-mage could be killed by a sneak stab to the back, just as anyone else") or the heroic fantasy crowd that's more content with rising above the common folk and only be challenged by equal opposition; most game systems, for the sake of keeping options open opt for the first one, although a sizeable contingent (mostly players, in my experience) feels a heavy disconnect that their idealized "big damn hero" has to work hard to fend off some rowdy highwaymen; it's always felt more like a problem of narrative framing than anything to me.
Talk with your players first and see where they stand, are they fine with being vulnerable to common threats and a more deadly game? Sure, just adjust those common banditry to the adequate level's stats, the one's they're fighting are simply old foxes of their craft with years of lawbreaking experience and a few unaware adventurers' heads in their scorecard
Do they prefer the high-powered feel? Use those same stats and find a narrative justification for the power boost, maybe a shady mage has been supplying the criminal underworld with a physically-enhancing potion that has terrible side effects, and that's the reason the bandits are hulking out like behemoths
You do realise that Create Water and Create Food are 1st and 2nd level spells respectively on all spell lists but occult?
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Hopefully he didn't mean "hungry" in a literal way. Because yeah...that's unlikely to be meaningful. In a world where 10th people should have a reasonable amount of power, they shouldn't be starving.
You can totally have a 10th level party of bandits, but I think trying to frame them narratively as starving bandits is where it start to break down.
The fix to this is not have every npc be able to raise levels. D20 games in general are very poor at simulating more realistic combat. a game like the Witcher RPGs is much better at it with more lethal combat. What d20 games do emulate very well and why I think they are so poplar is fantasy super heroes. Quite simply put do not have the heroes fight 20th level town guards because there is no such thing.
Here is the campaign rues I have
Pathfinder 2 Campaign.
Champions
Characters are champions. They are touched by the divine. This allows them to go well beyond the limits of mortals. They can take multiple sword blows that would kill the normal mortal. They can soar to the rank of being able to take on Giants and Dragons. Divine Touched/Champions come form all ancestries and heritages. They are often held in high regard by the inhabitants of Golarion. They are legends o be passed down though the generations.
-These champions that are touched by the Gods with their divine spark are identified at a very young age and incorporated into the Guild/Pathfinder Society. They are taken from their families and raised and trained by the Guild/Pathfinder Society. A more senior member of the Guild/Pathfinder Society will often oversea and raise young members in groups of 20 called a House. These 20 members are divided into smaller adventuring parties that go on missions for the Guild/Pathfinder Society. There are houses in most major settlements for Golarion. The number of houses may range from 1 to as many as10 for the largest settlements/cities such as Absalom.
-The Guild/Pathfinder Society is the most powerful and far-reaching entity in Golarion. It has the overwhelming majority of divine touched champions in Golarion. There are approximately 500,000 divine touched/Champions that are part of the Guild/Pathfinder Society. There are 20,000 divine touched/champions who have separated from the Guild/Pathfinder Society in Golarion.
-Golarion has approximately 30,000,000 million inhabitants. They are broken down into tiers of power.
Tier I Level 1 to 5
Tier II Level 5 to 10
Tier III Level 10 to 15
Tier IV is 15 to 20.
-Devine touched/Champions are the only beings that can go beyond level 1 which is the pinnacle of mortal training. At Tier IV the divine touched are often seen as avatars of the divine. Gods may often be in direct contact with them.
-Many Gods are involved with and support the Guild/Pathfinder Society. Many of their divine touched children are part of it or soon will be. The Guild/Pathfinder Society is a way to gain and exert influence in the world at large.
-The Guild/Pathfinder Society has divine touched/champions of all alignment form Lawful Evil to Lawful Good and the same goes for the deities who support and back it. It has created equilibrium amongst the gods and stopped open warfare amongst the gods/divine wars. There are still wars amongst mortals.
-The Guild/Pathfinder Society does a variety of missions for the mortals. They can be from
-Slaying Monsters (who are not part of the Guild/Pathfinder Society) but extremely powerful and often only Guild/Pathfinder Society can defeat them.
-Exploring lost temples and ruins.
-Taking care of rogue divine touched champions that threaten society.
-Depending on the circumstance taking out political rivals.
All of this for the right price and or influence.
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Hopefully he didn't mean "hungry" in a literal way. Because yeah...that's unlikely to be meaningful. In a world where 10th people should have a reasonable amount of power, they shouldn't be starving.
You can totally have a 10th level party of bandits, but I think trying to frame them narratively as starving bandits is where it start to break down.
Unless they are champions of Trelmarixian!!!!
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Yeah its killed heroes. I mean I lost a character. My friends lost characters. Its absolutely killed heroes.
Yeah its killed heroes. I mean I lost a character. My friends lost characters. Its absolutely killed heroes.
According to well know song-lore "Heroes never die", so clearly they weren't heroes ;)
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Yeah its killed heroes. I mean I lost a character. My friends lost characters. Its absolutely killed heroes.According to well know song-lore "Heroes never die", so clearly they weren't heroes ;)
But what if they were heroes, just for one day ?
Batman taught me that heroes eventually become villains.
I agree that this is kind of a pointless question on the surface, as it's really just the standard disconnect of level in universe. But it's not new and is largely inherent to any system with levels, and very much subject to the adventure you're running.
That said, I feel like this comes up more often with PF2e (subjectively, but this could just be a recency or sampling bias in my recollection).
I wonder if the actual problem is that Pathfinder 2e high-level play is so viable and functional that more people are doing it and therefore end up running into the disconnect where previously they might have just started a new campaign.
Batman taught me that heroes eventually become villains.
Nah, Batman was always the villain. Imagine having the money and power to improve the social conditions of Gotham and instead go and beat people up in the streets at night. "Why does the crime rates keep rising?" he asks. Sigh...
Batman taught me that heroes eventually become villains.Nah, Batman was always the villain. Imagine having the money and power to improve the social conditions of Gotham and instead go and beat people up in the streets at night. "Why does the crime rates keep rising?" he asks. Sigh...
Given the number of charity fundraisers he involved himself in, he was at least trying. Now, there's certainly an argument to be made that he wasn't doing it effectively, efficiently, or well, but "being bad at your job" isn't enough to make you a villain.
Now, kicking some dude for enjoying chocolate ice cream...
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It is a heavy book. It could probably be used to bludgeon a hero to death.
I'm reminded of "Suppose a Kid from the Last Dungeon Boonies Moved to a Starter Town?", an anime that follows what happens when a high-level NPC doesn't stay in that area.
So, you can always take this thread's premise and run it as a particularly meta game.