I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.
Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.
I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.
Are you saying remaster spirit damage is a bad system or errata champion spirit damage in particular is bad?
Are you saying remaster spirit damage is a bad system or errata champion spirit damage in particular is bad?I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.
Unlike normal Spirit damage, which was a buff for these kinds of spells because they work with any living (and adjacent) creature, the Champion's features that grant spirit damage only work against the same creature types it did as before and the Sanctified creatures, that are a bit different than before. If they had the LE/NE/CE Tag, you would gain the extra benefits against, now they need to be sanctified, which isn't a given anymore (although it's still expected against extraplanar beings).
Right. Where most examples of alignment to spirit conversions led to being more widely applicable, the champion errata being significantly less applicable. The eidolon errata got similar treatment. It's pretty obvious that whoever wrote the errata wasn't aligned with the general trend for spirit damage. (Pardon the pun, but aligned is the best word for this kind of internal inconsistentcy.)
Gotcha gotcha. Yea if the remaster champion gets a more general spirit damage itd smooth things over
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When the Champion errata came out for Remaster, I was overly optimistic about the changes. I came to appreciate Captain Morgan’s grounding comments on a thread like this one. So, Here are some of my thoughts on Champions in general when it comes to spirit damage/holy&unholy and what direction Paizo might go: (this’ll apply to both Holy & Unholy Champions)
The feats that got nerfed in the errata (IMO) are: Smite Evil/Good, Sense Evil/Good, Aura of Faith, Blade of Justice, Aura of Righteousness(?), Sacred Defender. The two big nerfs are the Smites and Aura of Faith. The list is very short now for what a Champion can Smite. (Fiends & most Undead for Holy, Celestials for Unholy, then a few outliers for both) So to fix that either Paizo will keep the feat’s numbers the same and give it a “Smite Anything” feel, or boost the damage numbers for such a niche feat. While for Aura of Faith, they’ll have to open that up more to perhaps you and your allies deal 1 spirit damage that has the holy/unholy trait in the aura.
The Sense feats can probably stay as is, but maybe give it a precise sense for the niche. Blade of Justice, I’m not sure what to do with… Aura of Righteousness may actually be better now, because that resistance applies to every type of damage from a fiend. Not just the evil damage.(Am I wrong here?) Sacred Defender should be broadened or given resistance 10 to all damage from a holy/unholy creature.
Lastly, I’d like to highlight the fact of how the errata buffed Divine Smite. Which I appreciate the change.
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The Sense feats can probably stay as is, but maybe give it a precise sense for the niche.
You probably mean imprecise sense--giving the paladin the ability to see unholy creatures directly even if they're invisible or hiding is probably a bit too strong of a buff. Even just being able to know immediately where they are is a pretty potent ability, but as you say, the niche is a lot smaller now.
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In general I think I personally hope for more of a smite anything Champion. On the one hand, I'm more than a little fond of the feel of being able to 'turn off' a blade of justice by converting the entire attack to harmless 'good' damage when you realize you've made a mistake, but on the other hand I feel like part of being a Champion is not swinging the smite down on anyone until you know they've earned it. Besides which, I don't think "steamrolls certain encounters with extremely good niche abilities but reverts to baseline for everything else" is a really healthy expression... and especially not if we have non-sanctified champions hanging around, which the Guardian makes me rather nervous about suddenly...
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Unlike normal Spirit damage, which was a buff for these kinds of spells because they work with any living (and adjacent) creature, the Champion's features that grant spirit damage only work against the same creature types it did as before and the Sanctified creatures, that are a bit different than before. If they had the LE/NE/CE Tag, you would gain the extra benefits against, now they need to be sanctified, which isn't a given anymore (although it's still expected against extraplanar beings).Are you saying remaster spirit damage is a bad system or errata champion spirit damage in particular is bad?I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.
That is true for feats like Smite Evil/Good, meaning those feats for example are just as terrible as before, just in a different way. And I'm 100% betting that they just missed telling us that Aura of Faith and Blade of Justice have the sanctified trait or something, meaning they just work like before.
But for all spirit damage features, this just looks like a massive buff. Especially for evil Champions, who now actually have Divine Smite in more than name only and aren't useless against undead anymore. Because all those instances of spirit damage don't have the "against targets that are (un)holy)" limitation, meaning they work just like normal spirit damage. Aka, you now get your full damage against basically anything that isn't a construct.
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Right. Where most examples of alignment to spirit conversions led to being more widely applicable, the champion errata being significantly less applicable. The eidolon errata got similar treatment. It's pretty obvious that whoever wrote the errata wasn't aligned with the general trend for spirit damage. (Pardon the pun, but aligned is the best word for this kind of internal inconsistentcy.)
I think it was the simplest 1:1 conversion without worrying about the future design of the class. It's probably going to see some changes when the Remaster Champion drops.
The Sense feats can probably stay as is, but maybe give it a precise sense for the niche.You probably mean imprecise sense--giving the paladin the ability to see unholy creatures directly even if they're invisible or hiding is probably a bit too strong of a buff. Even just being able to know immediately where they are is a pretty potent ability, but as you say, the niche is a lot smaller now.
I did mean precise sense, but you do make a good point. I’d either give it a once or twice per day spell like ability, which graduates to all the time at higher levels. Or keep it on all the time and give the creature the Champion’s sensing stealth checks as well as deception checks. Though obviously, the feat will be dependent on what they have chosen to do with Detect Alignment and the like…
Right. Where most examples of alignment to spirit conversions led to being more widely applicable, the champion errata being significantly less applicable. The eidolon errata got similar treatment. It's pretty obvious that whoever wrote the errata wasn't aligned with the general trend for spirit damage. (Pardon the pun, but aligned is the best word for this kind of internal inconsistentcy.)I think it was the simplest 1:1 conversion without worrying about the future design of the class. It's probably going to see some changes when the Remaster Champion drops.
No, it wasn't. Adding additional rules text that makes it work neither like alignment damage or most other spirit dage was not the simplest 1:1 conversion. Especially when Champions already got sanctified strikes, which rendered the old weakness triggering of those feats redundant. It's not simple, it is just the left hand not talking to the right.
My guess is they didn't want to make it too strong without playtesting. So they nerfed it to be a little weak.No, it wasn't. Adding additional rules text that makes it work neither like alignment damage or most other spirit dage was not the simplest 1:1 conversion. Especially when Champions already got sanctified strikes, which rendered the old weakness triggering of those feats redundant. It's not simple, it is just the left hand not talking to the right.Right. Where most examples of alignment to spirit conversions led to being more widely applicable, the champion errata being significantly less applicable. The eidolon errata got similar treatment. It's pretty obvious that whoever wrote the errata wasn't aligned with the general trend for spirit damage. (Pardon the pun, but aligned is the best word for this kind of internal inconsistentcy.)I think it was the simplest 1:1 conversion without worrying about the future design of the class. It's probably going to see some changes when the Remaster Champion drops.
I mean, maybe that was the intention of whoever wrote the errata. But I sincerely doubt it was the intention of Paizo on the whole. Considering that they made it weaker than the version that was published four years ago, it seems more likely to me that the person who wrote it just didn't quite get how holy and unholy worked.
Yep. I'm one of the bigger Paizo Stans on this forum and can point to a litany of cases where I think they've had more intentionality than the community gives them credit for, but I really really really doubt this was done that way. Maybe they wrote the errata before they finalized the core rules. Maybe whoever wrote that thought holy and unholy were going to be a much more 1:1 replacement for good and evil than they wound up being.
I'll also note that even with these individual feats being nerfed the class chassis got a sweet, sweet buff. Sanctified strikes is a huge thematic and mechanical buff, and fiends and celestials not getting spirit damage to replace their alignment damage also buffs champions who had to be good or evil before. (Even clerics of good deities could often by neutral to let them dodge alignment damage.)
I'm pretty sure this is a case of a bandaid fix to make things work until PC2 can make the real changes.
I'm pretty sure this is a case of a bandaid fix to make things work until PC2 can make the real changes.
That's certainly the case of the errata taken as a whole, but the specific examples of champion and eidolon spirit damage still strike me as mistakes.
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I’ve been thinking about Blade of Justice and how I would like to see it changed. I’d like to see it changed to a more generic Champion’s Divine Power Attack with goodies.
Give it the Sanctified Trait, and get rid of the fluff. Let the Strike always deal two extra dice. If the target is the opposite Sanctification, then you can convert all the damage into spirit damage. (Or keep it as it is) And if you are a Paladin or an Antipaladin, the Strike applies all effects that normally apply on their Champion’s Reaction.
Paladins and Antipaladins are the only Causes that make sense to add the effects of their Reaction. All the while giving the Antipaladin some needed shine. (Choosing who gets the extra damage from Destructive Vengeance, extra persistent spirit damage and an AoE effect on their allies within 15 feet)
Just perusing the Bard feats… Why can’t Sense Holy/Unholy be like Soulsight? There are no deception/stealth checks involved in that feat… Just straight up, you “smell” spirits within 60 feet.
For the cost of a level 8 feat a Champion can “smell” Holy/Unholy creatures. It’s pretty straightforward and elegant.
"Like most senses, doesn't penetrate through solid objects"
WELL, if that didn't just answer a months-old thread about whether lifesense could penetrate walls. Would be great if this line appeared in the detection rules but it doesn't seem to? Funny, because of the traditional senses, only sight is traditionally blocked by solid objects--hearing is muffled by barriers, but any player who has listened at a door knows it can still penetrate.
In any case, how you describe Sense Evil is more or less how it actually works now but flipped to holy/unholy. Champions currently detect evil as a vague sense i.e. 'smell'. Soulsight is more akin to hearing than it is to smell--excepting of course comparing it to the Scent ability of, say, a wolf.
That nitpick aside, I could easily see Sense Evil becoming an imprecise sense with a radius. Given that there exists an 8th level feat in the game which arguably has greater utility (detects virtually all non-mindless creatures and haunts, not just holy/unholy) it seems highly plausible.
"Like most senses, doesn't penetrate through solid objects"
WELL, if that didn't just answer a months-old thread about whether lifesense could penetrate walls. Would be great if this line appeared in the detection rules but it doesn't seem to? Funny, because of the traditional senses, only sight is traditionally blocked by solid objects--hearing is muffled by barriers, but any player who has listened at a door knows it can still penetrate.
In any case, how you describe Sense Evil is more or less how it actually works now but flipped to holy/unholy. Champions currently detect evil as a vague sense i.e. 'smell'. Soulsight is more akin to hearing than it is to smell--excepting of course comparing it to the Scent ability of, say, a wolf.
That nitpick aside, I could easily see Sense Evil becoming an imprecise sense with a radius. Given that there exists an 8th level feat in the game which arguably has greater utility (detects virtually all non-mindless creatures and haunts, not just holy/unholy) it seems highly plausible.
I had the old text in my mind, that’s why I wrote it that way. It didn’t occur to me that hearing could be an imprecise sense as well. (Duh)
Soulsight seems to me to be the direction they’ll most likely take with the Sense feats. But now I’m wondering if they need to make two feats for it; maybe make it a Sense Sanctification and the Champion can sense both Holy & Unholy as different ‘aromas’. That way Sense Unholy wouldn’t be far superior to Sense Holy. (Sense Unholy would include most Undead, Fiends, and Unholy Champions, Clerics, Exemplars. While Sense Holy would only be only Celestials, and Holy Champions, Clerics, and Exemplars) It is interesting to me that Soulsight has no way for the creature to hide itself from the Bard tho…
Soulsight allows the same defence that sight does: it says that it doesn't penetrate solid objects, meaning that you can hide behind cover. Presumably the equivalent of concealment would be trying to see one soul in a crowd of them, or maybe a large haunt would partially obscure creatures within its area.
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Soulsight allows the same defence that sight does: it says that it doesn't penetrate solid objects, meaning that you can hide behind cover. Presumably the equivalent of concealment would be trying to see one soul in a crowd of them, or maybe a large haunt would partially obscure creatures within its area.
Ok, that’s a great point. But I’m more thinking about the Shape Changed Demon or Deceptive Undead standing right in front of you. Like I’ve come across a few times in adventures or modules where you interact with an NPC who is secretly a Succubus. (for instance) Does the Champion automatically “sense” that something is ‘off’ about the NPC? I would be ok with that, because they invested into the niche feat. But others might not…
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I don't really understand why they errata'd smite the way they did. It is essentially useless now and it really didn't have to be. Spending an action to gain the extra spirit damage would not have been OP. I would have made it spirit damage with the holy/unholy trait, it still wouldn't have been OP in my opinion, and it would have kept the flavor of smite evil/good.
I agree with others that sense evil should end up like the bard soulsight, sense the presence of holy and unholy. I'm not sure it deserves to be a level 8 feat, seems a little niche, unless you're in a campaign that has a lot of holy or unholy creatures there are better level 8 feats.
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Unlike normal Spirit damage, which was a buff for these kinds of spells because they work with any living (and adjacent) creature, the Champion's features that grant spirit damage only work against the same creature types it did as before and the Sanctified creatures, that are a bit different than before. If they had the LE/NE/CE Tag, you would gain the extra benefits against, now they need to be sanctified, which isn't a given anymore (although it's still expected against extraplanar beings).Are you saying remaster spirit damage is a bad system or errata champion spirit damage in particular is bad?I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.So, I know it's been a bit, but I was looking at champion errata today, and I can't find where it says this, at least for the champion's reactions. They seem to just do spirit damage. It says the damage is a holy/unholy effect, but I don't think that should matter; it's still damaging your enemy, unless I've misunderstood something somewhere?
I do see where some feats got way more narrow, and that sucks. Hopefully that will get changed.
The discussion was more focused on the feats rather than the features. When it came to the Champion’s Reaction and its related abilities, the Remaster was a big buff. But to certain feats… not so much.
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Ah I gotcha. That makes sense. I'm also hoping that gets altered in the Remaster.
TBT, with the coming of the Guardian, the Exemplar and the martial archetype for the Cleric, not to mention the disappearance of Chaos and Law at PC level and the lack of Neutral Champions from the very start of PF2, I will not be surprised if the Remastered Champion becomes purely the Divine martial of Holy/Unholy.
I will be sad, but not surprised.
I wished for ages to create a non-Evil Champion of Gorum, which was impossible in PF2 before Remaster. But then ...
No more Gorum.
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I wished for ages to create a non-Evil Champion of Gorum, which was impossible in PF2 before Remaster. But then ...
No more Gorum.
That's the reason Gorum had to die. Paizo heard all the people wishing to make neutral champions of Gorum. So they had the choice: design the neutral champions or... :)
It's worth remembering that Champions of Pharasma just lost support (excepting the grandfathering in the Remaster Compatibility errata) so if Re:Champions turn out to be exclusively holy or unholy, there's a chunk of Champions that simply won't exist anymore. (Same with Gozreh, but I feel like Gozreh doesn't have quite as much traffic with Champion followers).
This, so too, for any other deity which allowed either good or evil followers but now does not allow sanctification. It's possible, but it feels a touch unlikely the designers would simply drop Champions of any deity that didn't have a reason also to join the un/holy war. Admittedly this might not end up being a very long list, so I hope I don't have to eat these words in two months.