Glad to see Fantasy Grounds is also getting involved with this and having their side ready for 2nd Ed. Release! Hopefully we get a better idea of the rule changes from the test and the updated version and some explanations of those rule changes I the near future.
Thank you for the details! And, while I am solidly in the camp of MOAR LORE, I like the changes to the lines!
From what I read in the Q&A, it looks like I don't need to do anything to continue getting all subscriptions.
Or do I?
Be good to know before it's too late :)
Designer
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MOAR LORE is so much more succinct than I was. :p
Big fan of MOAR LORE; Guide to Korvosa is one of my all-time favorites. If we consider a typical PF1 Player Companion (usually 100% rules with minor lore flavor text) and PF1 Campaign Setting (varies wildly, sometimes nearly no rules, up to sometimes a little under 50% rules, let's call it 25% on average), if you mashed those together into a 96-pager, you'd have 48 pages of rules, or half the book.
The coolest part about these World Guide books is that they are flexible and we're not tying ourselves to a static percentage of "required" rules; they'll have the right cool lore to tell the story they want to tell and all the right rules to support that story, and not just a random sidebar full of +1s like you were mentioning. We're pretty committed to doing what's right for each individual product. The first World Guide does have all the rules we've mentioned here, but ultimately it's much more lore-heavy than the hypothetical mash-up I described above. The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints. There's one further in the future that's quite exciting and you in particular might like even more than the first one, and so on and so forth. The idea is to contain rules that do heavy lifting and increase the number of stories and RP opportunities you have tied into the setting, making the game and world richer, not rules just for the sake of having rules (the place for fancy rules innovations just for rules sake is in the other line). That's part of the reason for so many backgrounds in the first book, actually. They don't take much space, but they give you a rich connection to the setting in your backstory that can help shape your character as a person.
When you guys check out the first few World Guides, please let me know how we did on that front. As the design lead on the first few of them (basically the rules guy from the design team who attends meetings and works with the development and edit leads to coordinate the process), I've been an advocate for this treatment of rules in the World Guide, and I want to know how we did!
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Does the 15% discount from the Adventure Path subscription apply to the other Pathfinder 2nd edition products?
Still interested in finding out if the 15% discount applies to the new products.
I assume I'll continue to receive the benefits of the Pathfinder Advantage by just subscribing to Adventure Paths.
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Does the 15% discount from the Adventure Path subscription apply to the other Pathfinder 2nd edition products?Still interested in finding out if the 15% discount applies to the new products.
Yes it does. You can see this by adding an item to your cart (assuming you already have the AP discount). The rulebook comes out to $50.99.
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The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints.
!!!
Man, I can’t *wait* to see what that book’s about...
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The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints.!!!
Man, I can’t *wait* to see what that book’s about...
Yeah. I'm not at my computer now so can't pull together all the "coming up soon" posts from Mark and Erik and James, but it really sounds like we're going to get a very robust rules base for PF2 very quickly. I'm pumped.
Since I saw Mark in here, I can't resist...
I love Harrow-themed stuff. I expect that in future a Varisia focused World Guide or chapter within a World Guide.
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Big fan of MOAR LORE; Guide to Korvosa is one of my all-time favorites. If we consider a typical PF1 Player Companion (usually 100% rules with minor lore flavor text) and PF1 Campaign Setting (varies wildly, sometimes nearly no rules, up to sometimes a little under 50% rules, let's call it 25% on average), if you mashed those together into a 96-pager, you'd have 48 pages of rules, or half the book.
The coolest part about these World Guide books is that they are flexible and we're not tying ourselves to a static percentage of "required" rules; they'll have the right cool lore to tell the story they want to tell and all the right rules to support that story, and not just a random sidebar full of +1s like you were mentioning. We're pretty committed to doing what's right for each individual product. The first World Guide does have all the rules we've mentioned here, but ultimately it's much more lore-heavy than the hypothetical mash-up I described above. The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints. There's one further in the future that's quite exciting and you in particular might like even more than the first one, and so on and so forth.
Thanks very much for the further comments, Mark. I am excited to see the World Guide and now very excited for book three in the series. :)
I should maybe clarify that a book doesn't have to be perfect for me to love it. I figured it can't hurt to provide feedback and for me the loss of distinction between "rules books player companions" and "flavor book campaign sourcebooks" is not ideal. Nonetheless, I'm confident this new line is going to be great.
It's really good to hear that you aren't tying yourselves down to one set format (so the second book is heavier on the rules, the third lighter, etcetera). There have been various iterations of the Player Companion line in particular where it felt like Paizo hamstrung yourselves somewhat by sticking to a predetermined, standardised format. That line was much better once that approach was relaxed and as a long time Paizo fan I think it's one of the company's true strengths that you can take feedback on board and continue to improve what are already great books.
For what it's worth, I'm particularly keen to see how you approach reintroducing/revisiting areas you've already touched on in earlier books. That's another strength of Paizo, imo (I loved the Gazetteer-Campaign Setting-ISWG progression for example. That was a sensational job of revision/expansion/refinement).
I'm looking forward to August (and early 2020, I guess for book three..)
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Big fan of MOAR LORE; Guide to Korvosa is one of my all-time favorites. If we consider a typical PF1 Player Companion (usually 100% rules with minor lore flavor text) and PF1 Campaign Setting (varies wildly, sometimes nearly no rules, up to sometimes a little under 50% rules, let's call it 25% on average), if you mashed those together into a 96-pager, you'd have 48 pages of rules, or half the book.
The coolest part about these World Guide books is that they are flexible and we're not tying ourselves to a static percentage of "required" rules; they'll have the right cool lore to tell the story they want to tell and all the right rules to support that story, and not just a random sidebar full of +1s like you were mentioning. We're pretty committed to doing what's right for each individual product. The first World Guide does have all the rules we've mentioned here, but ultimately it's much more lore-heavy than the hypothetical mash-up I described above. The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints. There's one further in the future that's quite exciting and you in particular might like even more than the first one, and so on and so forth.
Thanks very much for the further comments, Mark. I am excited to see the World Guide and now very excited for book three in the series. :)
I should maybe clarify that a book doesn't have to be perfect for me to love it. I figured it can't hurt to provide feedback and for me the loss of distinction between "rules books player companions" and "flavor book campaign sourcebooks" is not ideal. Nonetheless, I'm confident this new line is going to be great.
It's really good to hear that you aren't tying yourselves down to one set format (so the second book is heavier on the rules, the third lighter, etcetera). There have been various iterations of the Player Companion line in particular where it felt like Paizo...
Department of expectation management on this: While based on the stuff I personally like reading most, I'm really excited about the third one, the "future product" that I think you in particular will really like is the fourth.
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Cheers. To be frank, I suspect I'll like all of them. (I've seen these Paizo people's stuff before - they're pretty good!)
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Looking at it from a customer goodwill perspective:
Requiring people say no to not get something they don't want comes across as wanting to grab some money from people who don't want it. IOW, you will have people who see it as 'picking their pocket'.
Requiring people to say yes to get the new line of products proactively says to people "we want to do this the right way" and only creates a very mild inconvenience.
Requiring people to cancel their existing PF1 subs if they don't want to continue with PF2 is inconvenient for those people. Requiring people to start new PF2 subs (while automatically cancelling their existing PF1 subs) is inconvenient for those people. IOW, whichever way you do it, someone will be inconvenienced. Since if there were to be no transition to PF2 the situation would be the same as it has been since subs were first started (if you don't want to continue to get sub materials, you have to cancel the sub(s)) and since it seems likely there will be more people wanting to continue than to quit, it seems most reasonable to me to require people to cancel if they don't want to continue. Of course, I do want to continue, which I suppose means I'm biased. But then I'm pretty sure everybody else taking sides on this is also biased one way or t'other.
I want adventures to be a big part of Pathfinder Second Edition. Paizo cut its teeth and established its early reputation on the strength of our adventures...
Hear, hear.
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If the new products are coming out 1 August, when do I need to cancel all my subscriptions so I don't receive any of the PF2 stuff? I assume prior to 1 August but how much prior?
I did not enjoy what I saw during the playtest and was so disappointed I haven't bothered to see what got fixed or changed. I'm glad I have decades of PF1 stuff to play.
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If the new products are coming out 1 August, when do I need to cancel all my subscriptions so I don't receive any of the PF2 stuff? I assume prior to 1 August but how much prior?
Paizo always warn you when theyre about to ship you a subscription package. If you forget to cancel, you'll get an email saying "we're about to ship you a whole bunch of PF2 stuff".
That email is likely to be sometime in mid july I'd guess. So if youve cancelled by the end of june you should be safe.
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Requiring people to cancel their existing PF1 subs if they don't want to continue with PF2 is inconvenient for those people.You totally missed my point: It's not about it being inconvienent, it's about it coming across as dishonest. Plus there will be people who are going to be "WTF is this thing? This isn't the kind of thing I wanted to buy, they're ripping me off!"
I see your point. However, those people will get a warning email listing exactly what they're going to buy with a few days (often several days) to decline.
It's not like a new game is going to turn up without warning.
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Is it better to inconvenience people who are going to keep on buying your products, or those who have already decided to not being a PF customer anymore ?
Seeing how important User Experience has become these days, you do not want to inconvenience the people who buy your products.
Because Paizo is a company with ethics, they are going to give advance warning to their customer base, so that each customer can make an informed choice.
And really, they should send an email to each of their customer right now, not as a warning, but as an advertisement for the new system, including release dates and links to the site and forum.
Somehow I do not see people taking this to the government TBH.
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Yes it does. You can see this by adding an item to your cart (assuming you already have the AP discount). The rulebook comes out to $50.99.Does the 15% discount from the Adventure Path subscription apply to the other Pathfinder 2nd edition products?Still interested in finding out if the 15% discount applies to the new products.
I wonder whether the discount advantage might be expanded so that a Campaign Setting subscription or a Rulebooks subscription would provide it also
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The second book is particularly rules-heavy, but it has some rules I think people are going to adore, and that's really all I can say, I can't give you any hints.
Beyond those you mean ?
My bet : Deities book with rules for Non-Good Champions.
1) Non-Good Champions is something many people have been clamoring for since the beginning of the playtest.
2) It is something Mark himself wishes to see come true.
3) I just realized that it would fit nicely with the fact that Mark used the specific word "adore" and used italics to set it subtly apart from the others.
Simple question really,
As a charter subscriber who has kept his charter tag active for the life of Pathfinder 1, will I retain this going into Pathfinder 2?
It is something I am quite proud of and would hate to lose it.
Thanks in advance.
I wonder whether the discount advantage might be expanded so that a Campaign Setting subscription or a Rulebooks subscription would provide it alsoYes it does. You can see this by adding an item to your cart (assuming you already have the AP discount). The rulebook comes out to $50.99.Does the 15% discount from the Adventure Path subscription apply to the other Pathfinder 2nd edition products?Still interested in finding out if the 15% discount applies to the new products.
Seems unlikely to me. Starfinder’s eligibility is tougher to qualify for. I’d be surprised if it became more readily available “on the Pathfinder side”.
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Seems unlikely to me. Starfinder’s eligibility is tougher to qualify for. I’d be surprised if it became more readily available “on the Pathfinder side”.I wonder whether the discount advantage might be expanded so that a Campaign Setting subscription or a Rulebooks subscription would provide it alsoYes it does. You can see this by adding an item to your cart (assuming you already have the AP discount). The rulebook comes out to $50.99.Does the 15% discount from the Adventure Path subscription apply to the other Pathfinder 2nd edition products?Still interested in finding out if the 15% discount applies to the new products.
Though they might not make it easier on the Pathfinder side I could see it change so you qualify for super subscriber status by subbing to any combination of x number of Pathfinder & or Starfinder subscriptions. As a fan of both games and someone who plans to sub to multiple lines.. this would be very welcome lol. It could very well stay the same but thought id throw the idea out there for those who like to punish their wallet as much as I do.
If the new products are coming out 1 August, when do I need to cancel all my subscriptions so I don't receive any of the PF2 stuff? I assume prior to 1 August but how much prior?
I did not enjoy what I saw during the playtest and was so disappointed I haven't bothered to see what got fixed or changed. I'm glad I have decades of PF1 stuff to play.
The first post answers that question, not with a specific date but with the title of the last product.
How can we see what we are signed up for in terms of subscriptions.
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One: They did, they subscribed to something that said it was for PF1 products and that's what they were paying to get.That's one way of looking at it, I view as getting Paizo products in that line.
Two: The cable companies around here made the _exact same argument_ when they were trying to keep negative-option billing from being banned. Note that those arguments failed."Around here" is rather nebulous so just going off guessing, it's not the same thing. You're subscribed to rulebooks, you're getting rulebooks.
It would be just as easy to send emails that, instead of requiring those who don't want PF2 stuff to take properly timed action, offer a quick way of subscribing to the PF2 stuff that matches the existing PF1 subscriptions.Writing the email probably wouldn't but canceling every single Pathfinder subscription adn then forcing their customers to sign back up would be a total nightmare for both parties.
Requiring people say no to not get something they don't want comes across as wanting to grab some money from people who don't want it. IOW, you will have people who see it as 'picking their pocket'.That's on them, those people have had to do the same thing a supplemental or a new AP they're not interested in has come out. The same thing here, you're not getting a line of toner ink from Paizo, you're getting rulebooks and Adventures. The same as when they switched from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Requiring people to say yes to get the new line of products proactively says to people "we want to do this the right way" and only creates a very mild inconvenience.To you maybe, to me and plenty of others it's an enormous and unneeded headache.
You totally missed my point: It's not about it being inconvienent, it's about it coming across as dishonest.It's not, Paizo is going through an edition change like what they've done before.Tthey're not switching to a completely different product like prepared meals.
Plus there will be people who are going to be "WTF is this thing? This isn't the kind of thing I wanted to buy, they're ripping me off!"That's on them, it's advertised on the site, it's advertised on the cards that are sent with purchases, it's in the back of the books (which tell you exaclty what is coming next month), if you don't know it's coming after all of this it's on you.
It's not "who gets inconvenienced" it's "inconvenience v. appearing to be dishonest money-grubbers."No it's just an inconvenience thing.
The difference being that this is a permanent switch to a new product line as opposed to an oddball singular unwanted item. For an analogy, think a computer gaming magazine issue focused on flight simulators v. that magazine switching from covering PC games to covering Playstation games.Not remotely close to what's happening. We're getting a new edition, that's it.
An important thing here:
Requiring action to cancel is not just going to burn goodwill with those people, but also people they talk to about it. That burn is also not just going to be over an inconvenience but over a business practice that edges into territory that gets people mad enough to take it to the government.
No it won't because that's how it has always been. If you don't want a Paizo product and you have a subscription you have to cancel it yourself, Paizo is not going to assume someone doesn't want a certain product and cancel it and hope they resub after.
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How can we see what we are signed up for in terms of subscriptions.
Point at My Account at the top right hand side of the screen, and select Account Setting from the drop down menu. Scroll down to My Subscriptions and click on that.
My only question is about us remaining few Charter subscribers. Is that going to carry over into 2e, or will there be a new 2e Charter status?Good question! Very interested in the answer to that.
And there are so few ... so few .....
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If the new products are coming out 1 August, when do I need to cancel all my subscriptions so I don't receive any of the PF2 stuff? I assume prior to 1 August but how much prior?
Anytime between now and the end of June, just let customer service know you would like to cancel before the first 2E volume. Around the beginning of July when we generate orders for the Gen Con 2E release, keep an eye out for your order confirmation emails and carefully review them to ensure they are correct and only contain the 1E products that you wish to receive. If you have any trouble or issues with this process, please let us know right away so we can help you resolve it as soon as possible.
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IIRC, the cheapest way to get books and PDFs in PF1 when you have high shipping costs was stated to be subscribe to the AP line, buy all other PDFs on Paizo and buy the books from your FLGS.
So, being a subscriber on so many lines cost me quite some money that did not go to Paizo, but to the postal system.
If going to less frequent bigger books on the product lines makes it more sensible to keep on being an all-out subscriber, I will be quite happy :-)
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If the cable TV companies offered a completely new offer and stopped offering their previous line and heavily advertised the fact that the old was coming to an end, while the new was taking over with a very specific date, and all of this was announced more than a year before the change, with advance warning by email, I do not see on what basis people could complain about having to spend money on something they do not want.
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And PF2 is a _NEW LINE_.And I don’t really see it that much as one. I’m subscribed for Pathfinder Rulebook, I’m getting Pathfinder rulebooks.
Which isn’t what’s happening. Paizo isn’t forcibly adding on a sports and movie package to our subscriptions, we’re getting the same thing we had been in effect, Core Rulebooks and world setting books and adventures.If you need to know: Ontario
And you are _still_ making the same arguments the cable TV companies did when they were doing all the negative-option stuff. People were subscribed to cable TV and they were getting cable TV, just new channels that they never said they wanted and that they had to cancel if they didn't want to pay for them.
It would in no way be that simple or error free.A nightmare?
You let the existing ones come to an end and you give a single link to say "subscribe to the PF2 equivalents."
You are confusing one-offs with switching to an entirely new product line.Already given my stance on this above, I don’t see it as a new product line, and as always with products they’re not interested in it’s on the subscriber to cancel their subscription.
PF1 was fully compatible with 3.5 in a way that PF2 isn't with PF1.That’s rather irrelevant. Pathfinder was still a full new set of rules. Going off my impresssion of the Playtest, Second Edition will be just as “compatible” with First Edition as First Edition was with 3.5.
I'm sorry that you find something that could be done with a single link in an email to be an enormous headache.It’s even less of a headache to start a thread in Customer Service asking to have your subscriptions cancelled, rather than demand everyone else have their subscriptions cancelled just because you have no interest in the new edition of the game.
It's oh so nice of you to tell me what I think, do you also do card tricks?I can stack them okay-ish. And I wasn’t telling you what to think, I was stating what you think was wrong.
Congratulations, you just discovered that no analogy is perfect. Now, are you claiming that this isn't a permanent change in the game they are going to be sending out products for?
Also, I'm finding the changes in PF2 to be enough that I have been evaluating it as a new game, not a revision, so that makes my analogy exactly on point.
I’m finding them as much and as little as a change that we went through from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
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I am glad I don't have to restart my subscription for when 2nd edition comes out, and if I decide I don't want it it's super easy to contact customer service and get it cancelled.
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And PF2 is a _NEW LINE_.And I don’t really see it that much as one.
No. Just no. It's literally a completely different game. Yes, it's stylistically similar in terms of it being a fantasy tabletop RPG, but it's emphatically not what the accepted term for Pathfinder has meant for a decade now. Branding not relevant. If Paizo started shipping 5e with the name crossed off an "Pathfinder" written in its place, you can see it's the same circumstance; different game, same functional purpose, same branding.
There's a difference between a 1971 Dodge Charger and a 2019 Dodge Charger, and if you've had a subscription for parts and accessories for the original and Dodge suddenly started shipping you parts for the newer cars, that'd be... jarring.
That all said, the more I think about this topic, the less an issue I think it is. Paizo maintains a high level of communication with its customers, including explicitly notifying subscribers of what they are buying a week before they buy. Virtually anyone who gets a PF2 product involuntarily is negligent. The exception being perhaps people who are doing long-term missionary work in Africa, without Internet, and have a massive pile of boxes on their doorstep waiting for them to return home.
From a legality standpoint, I also don't expect there's an issue. Nominal versions of a thing within a subscription aren't a problem. For instance, Microsoft can change the version of Word included with subscription Office 365 plans on a whim and subscribers do not need to opt back in, regardless of how heavily functionality is altered. Indeed, serious changes such as Skype for Business being rolled into Teams allows complete product replacement, without issue.
Bottom line, this isn't even vaguely bait & switch or dishonest, and there's been a year of advance warning that Pathfinder - as we knew it - is being replaced with an entirely different game of the same name.
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Cancelling literally requires a one sentence email. I don't see this as a big deal. I have subscribed and unsubscribed dozens of times without much difficulty.
Starting up a Sub for the rule books, because I love what I am seeing.
Just waiting to see what advantages there are to subscribing. Have to say that I loved the perk of getting the PDF when the books shipped. Seriously hoping that perk stays the same.
In for the rule books and adventure paths at the moment.
My plan is to sub at least through the the initial offerings provided in six months. Paizo produces quality and even if P2 ends up not being my preference I want to give it a solid attempt. To me it is the same service and subscriptions, so it makes sense I don't have to re-up to continue them. The rules may change but that has happened before.
Also place me as someone who wants the PDFs to remain as the big incentive to subscribe. I wish more companies made the print/pdf bundles more accessible. The new format of the World Guide line in hardcovers is a great replacement to the two softcover player and GM focussed lines. For Paizo's finances, mix use RPG books tend to sell better. For our customer finances, I like that it isn't every month.
Good luck on the transition!
I have always had great experience with Paizo Customer Service. I had been a long tome Pathfinder Subscriber (Rule books). I had stopped the subscription when NPC books had started to come out. It was easy to start it up again with PF2. They were very helpful with adding stuff to my side cart.
I was ready for PF2. I had been playing 3.0/3.5 since the beginning. I remember EN World was started by someone different and there was countdown clock for the launch of 3.0. There were the 2nd Edition fans that said 3.0 would ruin D&D. I remember the Pathfinder Playtest and how much I liked the changing from the Playtest to the Pathfinder rules. Pathfinder is the best version of the rules for 3.5. However, for me Pathfinder/3.5 has become long in tooth and I was ready for change. I sold all my Pathfinder books to make room for PF2.
I think I am probably going to add the world guide subscription after the first slate of book come out. I have 2 of the first world guide in the side cart.
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If the cable TV companies offered a completely new offer and stopped offering their previous line and heavily advertised the fact that the old was coming to an end, while the new was taking over with a very specific date, and all of this was announced more than a year before the change, with advance warning by email, I do not see on what basis people could complain about having to spend money on something they do not want.You mean except for that being specifically _illegal_ here?
When this was an issue with the cable companies, the argument Shaw, Rogers, etc. were making was that they were giving warning and people had plenty of time to cancel.
Interesting, I admit. Can you point me (maybe with a link) to where I can find info on this ?
Interesting, I admit. Can you point me (maybe with a link) to where I can find info on this ?If the cable TV companies offered a completely new offer and stopped offering their previous line and heavily advertised the fact that the old was coming to an end, while the new was taking over with a very specific date, and all of this was announced more than a year before the change, with advance warning by email, I do not see on what basis people could complain about having to spend money on something they do not want.You mean except for that being specifically _illegal_ here?
When this was an issue with the cable companies, the argument Shaw, Rogers, etc. were making was that they were giving warning and people had plenty of time to cancel.
If you google “negative option billing” you should find plenty of informatipn about this practice.
EDIT: I’m not sure that what Paizo is doing here wpuld qualify as negative option billing, however. Certainly, it’s debatable. I see merit to the arguments of both sides.