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dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? Well, it kept him up for a round or two, but it didn't stop him from getting dropped. Really just delayed the inevitable.
Again, Oberyn took him apart. He might have done it a little quicker if the mountain had just worn leather, but he would still have dropped the guy and waited for his confession before killing him. Armor would have made the difference in a realistic scenario, but a fantasy hero like Oberyn's skill made that not matter.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? Well, it kept him up for a round or two, but it didn't stop him from getting dropped. Really just delayed the inevitable.
Again, Oberyn took him apart. He might have done it a little quicker if the mountain had just worn leather, but he would still have dropped the guy and waited for his confession before killing him. Armor would have made the difference in a realistic scenario, but a fantasy hero like Oberyn's skill made that not matter. So the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support your argument - matter and must be taken into account but the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support my argument are irrelevant and must be ignored.
dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? Well, it kept him up for a round or two, but it didn't stop him from getting dropped. Really just delayed the inevitable.
Again, Oberyn took him apart. He might have done it a little quicker if the mountain had just worn leather, but he would still have dropped the guy and waited for his confession before killing him. Armor would have made the difference in a realistic scenario, but a fantasy hero like Oberyn's skill made that not matter. So the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support your argument - matter and must be taken into account but the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support my argument are irrelevant and must be ignored. Well if your argument was that Gregor's higher AC due to his full plate was an asset in the fight, it's kind of hard to see that point of view when he convincingly loses the fight despite it and only wins because his opponent got cocky and decided to essentially throw the fight for the sake of an RP moment.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? Well, it kept him up for a round or two, but it didn't stop him from getting dropped. Really just delayed the inevitable.
Again, Oberyn took him apart. He might have done it a little quicker if the mountain had just worn leather, but he would still have dropped the guy and waited for his confession before killing him. Armor would have made the difference in a realistic scenario, but a fantasy hero like Oberyn's skill made that not matter. So the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support your argument - matter and must be taken into account but the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support my argument are irrelevant and must be ignored. Well if your argument was that Gregor's higher AC due to his full plate was an asset in the fight, it's kind of hard to see that point of view when he convincingly loses the fight despite it and only wins because his opponent got cocky and decided to essentially throw the fight for the sake of an RP moment. The point is there are three blows from Oberyn that the full plate deflects (AC) and then there is nothing stopping The Mountain from easily overpowering and crushing Oberyn's head like a grape (AC as called out by Tyrion who asked his champion to wear a damn helmet.)
I find it even harder to see how Oberyn is the shining example people keep using of how a fighter should be able to wear light armor. Oberyn wears light armor and look what it does for him - absolutely nothing.
dirtypool wrote: Tarik Blackhands wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? Well, it kept him up for a round or two, but it didn't stop him from getting dropped. Really just delayed the inevitable.
Again, Oberyn took him apart. He might have done it a little quicker if the mountain had just worn leather, but he would still have dropped the guy and waited for his confession before killing him. Armor would have made the difference in a realistic scenario, but a fantasy hero like Oberyn's skill made that not matter. So the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support your argument - matter and must be taken into account but the things in the scene that align with game mechanics and support my argument are irrelevant and must be ignored. Well if your argument was that Gregor's higher AC due to his full plate was an asset in the fight, it's kind of hard to see that point of view when he convincingly loses the fight despite it and only wins because his opponent got cocky and decided to essentially throw the fight for the sake of an RP moment. The point is there are three blows from Oberyn that the full plate deflects (AC) and then there is nothing stopping The Mountain from easily overpowering and crushing Oberyn's head like a grape (AC as called out by Tyrion who asked his champion to wear a damn helmet.)
I find it even harder to see how Oberyn is the shining example people keep using of how a fighter should be able to wear light armor. Oberyn wears light armor and look what it does for him - absolutely nothing. You're missing the point that with the exception of the very end when he blows the fight, Oberyn beats the Mountain. Convincingly. Until the very end Oberyn hands the Mountain his rear on a silver platter (it's been a while since I read the books, but near as I recall, Oberyn gets shoulder checked or something to that effect maybe once before the end).
And if you want to torture the example of converting the fight into Pathfinder terms, armor wasn't going to save Oberyn from his demise on the merit that his weedy Dex fighter got grappled and promptly crushed by the CMB +Massive Gregor and was going to get pulped one way or another, no helmet was going to save him.
So in conclusion, discounting the very end (which again, is basically Oberyn throwing the fight since he breaks the cardinal rule of his strategy which is to not get in reach of the hulking brute and his massive strength)dex fighter convincingly beats heavy armor strength brute and falls to his own hubris in the end. Most players prefer to remove the hubris bit and stick with the former of dancing around a slower brute and wearing them down while avoiding hits that way.
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Oberyn was higher level, which is why he could afford lighter armour and still have the advantage. There, fixed it.
However, his style isn't favoured by P2's Fighter, and thus he isn't easy to replicate.
Ediwir wrote: Oberyn was higher level, which is why he could afford lighter armour and still have the advantage. There, fixed it.
However, his style isn't favoured by P2's Fighter, and thus he isn't easy to replicate.
Not without magic anyway. In theory you could replicate Oberyn if you have enough speed and space to stab (or force an AOO from) the target and flee beyond their means to retaliate even with three actions. However unless you're very fast, the target very slow, both, or have haste up good luck executing that to the extent you'll avoid all retaliation.
Also higher level and dies to a single unarmed attack to the head? Color me doubtful.
Tarik Blackhands wrote: Ediwir wrote: Oberyn was higher level, which is why he could afford lighter armour and still have the advantage. There, fixed it.
However, his style isn't favoured by P2's Fighter, and thus he isn't easy to replicate.
Not without magic anyway. In theory you could replicate Oberyn if you have enough speed and space to stab (or force an AOO from) the target and flee beyond their means to retaliate even with three actions. However unless you're very fast, the target very slow, both, or have haste up good luck executing that to the extent you'll avoid all retaliation.
Also higher level and dies to a single unarmed attack to the head? Color me doubtful. Cleary Oberyn was a monk and only lost because he put any armor on at all, costing him his extra movement. ;)
dirtypool wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
If we are going to put it in Pathfinder mechanical terms, the Mountain won because he had more HP than Oberyn thought he did, or some ability like Ferocity.
Ah... so the higher AC of the armor was of no value to the Mountain in that fight where three blows glanced off of his armor? as he was stabbed repeatedly and poisoned, nope. Was a very RPG style fight actually, real plate vs agile guy usually ended with dead agile guy, as the plate wearing combatant was still mobile and very difficult to hurt. Mind you a spear is a very good choice vs plate, if used right (which is why polearms tend to have 'and a spear point' on the can opening end)
Ediwir wrote: Oberyn was higher level, which is why he could afford lighter armour and still have the advantage. There, fixed it. This implies Oberyn would fight better with heavy armor. I don't think that's the case and I definitely don't like the implications if it was (that would mean Oberyn is deliberately not wearing one despite knowing that would be the superior choice)
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