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Would a Warpriest variation be a tad more viable than an Inquisitor? Paladins to me always seemed lawful because they had behavior guidelines. The paly already gets the dieific weapon which to me always stood out as the main Warpriest thing...

I like resonance for the most part. It helps keep the casters a tad more in check & gives Clerics a reason to heal outside of wands.
I am concerned about the Alchemist needing it for class features. It feels like a bit of a struggle like they are always in need of just a few more points to be viable.
Dwarves get a bit kneecapped too in a weird way, you'd think they would be good at manipulating items as a race of legendary smiths but it is still manageable later in the game so not a huge issue there.

Phantasmist wrote:

A series of questions for people who like the new game and general direction paizo's team is taking it. But, before that I want people to give an honest answer without interference, so no judgement please. Likewise I'm mainly going to be viewing peoples responses, so I'm not going commenting on anything unless people need clarification on a question. Also, the reason I'm asking is because I don't like the direction the new game is going. Despite that I'm just curious as to what people like about and where they might be coming from. I want less drama and more understanding, so here we go.

1. Do you currently like pathfinder 1e? (I know it sounds loaded, but please bare with me.)

2. Did you once like pathfinder 1e but now find it troublesome? (feel free to give details.)

3. Do you like 4th or 5th edition D&D? (Also sounds loaded but again no judgments)

4. Which are you looking for class balance, smoother high level play, more options, or even all of those things? (Small edit: these weren't meant to be mutually excursive, I just want the gist of what you're looking for, feel free to add additional thoughts/desires as well.)

5. How do you feel about making the game more accessible in general?

6. Are you willing to give up on accessibility if you can still gain all of the benefits listed in question 4?

7. Would you be willing to play an alternative rules system then what we have been presented? (A different version of pathfinder 2nd edition if you will).

8. And if you said yes to the above question what would you like to see in that theoretical game? (Most of you will see what I'm doing here, I'm finding common ground)

1) Yes with minor gripes (c/MD)

2) Some of the rules needed to keep older classes on par with those introduced in Advanced Players Guide & beyond are spread out over multiple books (fighter & rogue mostly) & the revamping of Summoner as well as drastic reediting of a couple of the splat book classes (shifter)

3) 4th ed at first yes but as more books came out everything blended together into one big pile of blah, 5th I enjoy but the options still feel kind of limiting.

4) Class & high level game balance are my main concerns with going from 1e to 2e.

5) I'm cool with it.

6) No

7) So long as those options were also play tested yes

8) I think what is presented is done pretty well, aside from minor gripes about certain Marshall feats (especially style fleets) being locked behind a specific class, some spells feeling blah, the alchemist needing more resonance, the ranger feeling lack luster, & ancestry feats seeming weirdly placed during leveling I'm enjoying the system. Unsure what can be productively improved upon beyond minor tweaks.

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Not terribly excited at the way the ranger is being handled
It feels incomplete somehow
It seems to force a focus on combat, companion or snares but you pretty much have to neglect the rest outright
They get snares instead of magic but those come online late :( 4 to start & 8 for combat viability I was all for this change, as I tended to play a trapper ranger, it just isn't popping
I have been spoiled by combat options available in pf1 so the few bonuses to crossbows & twf just seem meh compared to a set of feats free for almost any style you could want once you factored in ones for worshipers of specific gods (I know this gripes on me like I said spoiled)
The additional animal companion stuff is neat, stacking with hunted target for bonuses is nice
The situational bonuses are gone but I mostly used them for background story rather than a real combat mechanism
As a ranger player since 3.0 I just feel underwhelmed
The fighter, rogue, & monk all felt like they got a bit buffed but the ranger just feels less... even when compared to the DnD 5.0 ranger

I'd houserule that it works on creatures of the plant type. I'm a fairly lenient GM though...

Thanks UnArcaneElection :)

I found 3 Shaman archetypes that trade out familiars for something else.

Name Keeper goes the bonded object route plus some other random goodies that are open to a various builds.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-sham an-archetypes/name-keeper-shaman-archetype

Speaker of the Past swaps in some limited Oracle options. This seems to have a very specific idea in mind for it which may be limiting.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-sham an-archetypes/speaker-for-the-past

True Silvered Throne goes the Spell book route. This may need some reflavoring but still allows for customization.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-sham an-archetypes/true-silvered-throne-shaman-archetype

The Gravewalker witch gets a spell poppet that is similar to a familiar without actually being one. It could work for you. Possessed doll made of dead parts would be great as a vessel for various disembodied outsiders. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo-witch-a rchetypes/gravewalker/

Talents are optional for every manifesting class except I think the Psion.


Agathiel (Vigilante Archetype) is a sneaky shifting class from level 1 that allows you to keep your form for quite a bit. It does come with some alignment restrictions & is a tad weak for a melee class but still seems neat.

Top 10
1) Cleric: I naturally gravitate toward them, easy to build.
2) Ninja: "Magic" rogue.
3) Oracle: Easier to build less MAD Cleric.
4) Ranger: enough bonus feats to be good in melee, decent spells & a pet :)
5) Slayer: Interesting marshal, gets a good mix of selections.
6) Druid: Easy to build flavorful, wild shape.
7) Arcanist: Like that there are so many options for a caster.
8) Hunter: Pet & tons of potential builds, allow me to use team work feats effectively no matter the group.
9) Unchained Rogue: A step in the right direction.
10) Honestly after unchained rogue everything hits Meh status for me. I don't love 'em but don't hate 'em either.

Bottom 10
1) Summoner: Too much to keep track of with evolutions, I have trouble remembering all the options, spell list kinda broke but that has been fixed with Unchained.
2) Cavalier: Not a fan of mounts.
3) Samurai: See Cavalier.
4) Wizard: Over-powered, lacking in build options that aren't spells
5) Paladin: though fixed with archetypes I don't like mounts or alignment restrictions.
6) Anti-Paladin: See Paladin.
7) Monk: alignment restrictions, MAD
8) Sklad: its weird that it doesn't work well with Barbarians
9) Medium: have yet to play a game in which a haunt exists making them less useful then they could be.
10) Alchemist: I want to like it but you have to really customize or sacrifice to get an interesting build.

A sage wildblooded bloodline or an Arcainist can both do this role fairly well.

I've made some interesting Kobolds & Aasamirs, don't have much experience with any other uncommon races. I've theory crafted with several of the genie-kin but never got to see in action. I do enjoy the crunch of Samsarins, Changelings, Dhamphirs, & Wayangs.

Wouldn't Robin Hood count as a chaotic good bandit?
Or Han Solo?

Warpriest is also an option channel at 4

Arcane Healer Bard, gets it at second

Witch Doctor Shaman can also channel at 4th

Hex channeler Witch gets channel energy at 2nd level but its weak & you have to sacrifice hexes to make it stronger.

I've played with 4 groups, 2 of which had 1 female player, 1 had 2.
I have noticed that the male players tend to be more leadership ended with the females just following along. Especially in the beginning when everyone is just developing/learning their characters. I try as a GM to get each players input on situations & strategies, especially outside of combat. I find that it provides a much more pleasant experience for everyone.
In one game it really allowed our Ranger (Lisa) to shine after our orc sorcerer (who had a chip on his shoulder & drinking problem) destroyed the artifact needed to weaken the big bad & our fighter (she had amazing stats) managed to critical fumble almost every attack then got decapitated. Prior to this the orc was in charge. Lisa managed to tame a wild dire badger to join the party & convince rescued captives to transport the fighters body so she could be properly laid to rest. Her & the drow druid also came up with inventive uses for his treant companion.

Don't forget Unearthed Arcana also had variant Paladins for 3.0 :)

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Phasics wrote:

Can such a thing exist ?

A class all about maintaining the balance between good and evil law and chaos ? could such a class even function or would the paradoxical decision required drive most True Neutral Paladins Insane ?

with "Smite Other" ;) anything outside of a true neutral is fair game for balancing hehehe.

Or is a True Neutral Paladin just another name for an existing class ? if so which class would you consider to be a True Neutral Paladin if such a thing can even exist.

From 3.5 Dragon magazine #110 there is an article "Champions of the Divine Paladins of other alignments" by none other than James Jacobs which has a true neutral pally known as the Incarnate.

Instead of detect magic they can detect creatures with an alignment subtype.
they get some basic elemental attack abilities rather than healing
they get to smite any extreme alignment
they can rebuke outsiders
they get an elemental companion rather than a mount
they get commune with nature as a spell like ability
& they get a more Druid like spell list

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Osteokinesis being able to control ones bones
could throw bone shards, make weapons, wrap themselves in the bone etc.
Marrow from X-men
Kimimaro from Naruto

At higher levels you will need wounding & penetrating trap so you can bypass damage reduction. I had issues with the archetype until after they were released, mostly because of the cost of special arrows.

Cha is only necessary for your wild empathy &/or handle animal checks so it could be dumped if you choose to bond with your party instead.

If you are switch hitting or ranged focused I'd go for vital strike, power attack is more for your 2 handed melee weapon builds.

You can pour certain alchemical items on your weapons, alchemical silver comes to mind.

Personally I enjoy the Trapper archetype, once you can attach the traps to your ranged attacks it becomes really fun.
Granted many of the more interesting traps are from later books (champions of balance, ranged tactics toolbox, magical marketplace) but they are well balanced & there are only 30 or so of them anyway. TrAps are dependent on Wisdom though so you may want to keep at least 12 in it.

I enjoy the insane amount of options presented.

Archetypes while not perfect do a gteat job of opening up otherwise unavailable concepts (outside of homebrew). I find them more agreeable than Prestige Classes.

Alternate racial traits & options help open up stuff too. It is easy to come up with a relatively balanced sub-race without starting from scratch.

The sheer number of spells, feats & traits almost guarantees that you always have an option for any setting or concept.

The scope of Galorian is great in it's variety of cultures and topography.

I enjoy the way skills were simplified from 3.0.

I like CMB & CMD a hell of alot better than 3.5 rules.

I like that Drow got poison use.

I have enjoyed most of the new class concepts introduced, those I don't I have chalked up to not understanding how to build (original Summoner & fighter)

I like how Paizo takes just enough risk within reason to keep the game fresh Unchained offered a great boost fo my group.

I'm sure given time I'd come up with more.

The Spell Killer Inquisition is thematic.
With team work feats Shake It Off is a great way to improve your chances of surviving a save or suck spell.
Precise Strike can be great with the right team, Rogues, Slayers etc.
Instant Judgement & Extended Bane are always good choices. Judgement Surge can be a good choice also.
Disruptive Spell metamagic feat is another.
From there its a matter of personal strategy & weaponry

Being a tree hugging pagan I'd be a follower of the Green Faith so Gozreh would probably be my (primary) god of choice, with nods to Pharasma, Cernunnos, the elemental lords & the eldest.

Im falling on the side of Feral Hunter

There are 2 archetypes that would help out here, the first is goblin only fire bomber from the Advanced Races Guide, this tweeks your bombs, mutagen, poison resistance & discoveries allowing you to focus on fire damage. You can swap some discoveries out for a few feats here so that can be fairly handy.

The second option would be Grenadier. This
trades out Brew Potion & all your poison related abilities for a weapon proficency & huge boosts to your bombs. This one is found in the Pathfinder Society Feild Guide.

Unfortunately you cant use both at once.

With traits Firebug will give you a small boost & is themeatic.

As far as Discoveries Precise Bomb is a must with any bomb based build so you can safely chuck into melee. Explosive Bomb will boost your fire damage. Delayed Bomb allows you to set traps/landmines which can have some fun applications.

With Feats Point Blank Shot is needed for Precise Shot, from here you can go into Rapid Shot or Improved Precise Shot. If you go Rapid you will need Extra Bombs. Splash Weapon Mastery is good, counts as Far Shot feat if you want to build on long range.

Hopefully that helps.

If 3rd party rules & psionics are allowed Ultimate Psionics from Dreamscarred Press has the Aegis class which lets you create ectoplasmic custom body armor that has a ton of interesting options.

Occult Adventures has a couple options also. The Battle Host lets you bond with & cast spells through armor.

The Ectoplasmatist Spiritualist archetype allows you to create armor &/or weapons instead of having a spirit. You have to wait til 4th lvl to get armor though.

Yes these would all need some minor reflavoring (nanites instead of ectoplasim) but still...

Kaisoku wrote:

Drizzt used two weapons and had an intelligent animal as a magic item, not a class ability. The rest of his abilities were mostly racial based (whatever stealth he had, etc).

Honestly, I felt he was better represented as a Fighter, considering how descriptive his training and combat technique was.

Actually, now that I think about it, I seem to recall an rpg-lite-adventure game for xbox or something that had Drizzt as an unlockable playable character. Think it was a Baldur's Gate adventure game (diablo style vs the original RPG-focused versions on PC).
They had him listed as a Fighter, or at least gave him fighter-like advancement.

Baldur s Gate: Dark Alliance I & II

They gave him some spells, Repulsion & Icey Sphere but yeah he seems like a Fighter with a dip of Ranger.

Heroes of Horror from 3.5 had a d6 divine caster named the Archivist. He was a prepared caster who could use both Cleric & Druid spells & kept a prayer book simular to the Wizards spell book. He also got some nice bonuses to knowledge skills. & enough skill points to make a decent monkey. One of my favorite classes.

Skills: 4+Int/lvl
1/2 Bab
Good Will & Fort saves
All simple weapons
Light & Medium armor
No Shields
Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat
Int as the primary casting stat
9 levels of spells
Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Linguistics, All Knowledge, Perception, Profession, & Spellcraft


I would assume yes, it clearly states undead but does not specify an alignment

Other skill relevant skill boosting feats could include:

Stealthy: +2/4 Escape Artist & Stealth

Decietful: +2/4 Bluff & Disguise

Persuasive: +2/4 Diplomacy & Intimidate

Signature Skill: adds extra abilities to a skill, this feat can only be taken once per character

Skill Focus: +3/6 any skill

Cosmopolitan: add any 2 mental based skills as class skills

If you are willing to sacrifice a feat Amateur Investigator adds to the skill monkey-ness of it all allowing you to add 1d6 to Linguistics, Spellcraft & any Knowledge skills you are trained in.

In what way are you looking to rogue out? Both the Ranger & Slayer have d10 hp, 6+Int skills, but miss out on having Disable Device as a defult class skill.

The Urban Ranger archetype adds Disable Device & Knowledge (local) to your class skills but reflavors most of your abilities

The Trapper Ranger archetype also adds Disable Device & gives some nifty trap related options (you can shoot a trapped arrow) in exchange for spells

The Skirmisher Ranger archetype gives some hunters tricks which are simular to rogue talents, this also swaps out spells though

The Slayer has some great potential, he's more focused on messing up 1 enemy at a time than the Ranger (very assassin). They can choose trap finding, Ranger Combat style feats & favoured terrain with his talents. Later they can access some Ninja Talents.

As both a GM & a player I'm going to go at this one class at a time & try to give an opinion on both sides.

Barbarian: It all comes down to the math here. My players are casual and don't always keep track of things like I feel they should but I let them focus more on the Role they want to play so if I have to keep tabs on what they are doing because they got too into being the badass they wanted to a simple pool of temporary Hp is more manageable than keeping track of multiple seperate stat increases.
As a player, I don't see much difference between them. The math does makes turns go quicker.

Monk: The GM side could not care less about it.
The player in me likes the open options & the fact that the new monk is viable through all 20 levels without an archetype & is slightly less dependant on uber high stats in everything.

Rogue: As a GM it's good to see the rogue having its own place again. Last couple core rogues that were ran with my group ended up dead before they had a chance to shine. Yes you could go a little more specialized with the Ninja, Slayer Investigator or Bard but having a true Rogue to fill out the party again is nice.
As a player its nice to be able to take back some ground as both a skill specialist & a melee assassin.

Summoner: As a GM this class was monstrous, even when not optimized it could hold it's own in an encounter, The spell list was weird, & it forced higher level encounters on the party. Now with some reigning in it seems more balanced all around though I have yet to see it in action.
As a player I hate losing options & the limits on the eilidon don't exactly have me jumping for joy but due to my GM experience I get why it was done.

I can see how the Monk can be interpreted that way. Don't have much experience with the Brawler but a quick comparison does show some overlap.
The new Barbarian was easier for my players to get down. I'm fairly certain the DPS is less but it saves a lot of time, math, questions & accidental death. The rage powers seemed to get a tad better.

Honestly if you are looking for a melee buff I might suggest Inner Sea Combat for some great variety (rangers especially).
If you really want tip the scales though Pathfinder Unchained has upgraded Monks & Rogues & Tweaked the Barbarian.
It introduces a stamina system to give your melee feats more umph.
They simplified/nerfed the Summoner & also included a few tweeked sub-systems for casters to slow their power curve a tad.

One of my players used the Fire Gods Blessing feat (heal hp for fire damage you do to enemy) for his half-orc sorcerer, worked out pretty well at low-mid levels. That's probably sub optimal but it kept him alive & helped out our Druid. (The Druid was the party healer in this case BC new players got overwhelmed by cleric options) Don't seem to have notes on his bloodline... It may have been Orc.

As discussed in other threads the Unchained Monk has some archetype compatibility issues.
In order for my players to keep their current characters rather than rebuild from scratch would letting them use the Qingong Monks trade out to get access to the Unchained Monk Ki Powers be fair?
They don't want to lose that Will save.

Nicaros wrote:
I was wondering if with the counterfeit mage archetype would be good with the new unchained rogue setup? I don't want to by the book yet unless this would work.

It works just fine, the abilities Counterfeit Mage replaces are still included in the Unchained Rouge.

Not sure if its been pounted out already but the Arcanist, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Investigator, Ranger, Shaman, Sklad, Slayer, Sorcerer, Swashbuckler, Witch & Wizard have messed up Bab on their respective tables. The PDFs have been a great help.

Secret Wizard wrote:

You officially don't need to use Crossbowsoptionsymore for that build, Ermak.

You can get the Exceptional Pull feat instead.

Was unaware of that particular feat thanks, always nice to have expand options

I enjoy a ranged trapper ranger kobold build, go cross bow & you don't have to worry about the penalty to strength you would get with a composite bow. Kobold Sniper feat works pretty awesome with this also. There is an old 3.5 article called Kobolds: Playing To Their Strengths that add some minor buffs to the race that my group use for their players (natural weapons, sleight build, weapon proficiency with picks) & a couple more cross bow choices. Classic Monsters Revisited also has minor buffs based on colour that are paizo official (red scaled fire based sorcerer is pretty awesome).

So along the lines of the spell like abilities can you choose to cast darkness instead of deeper darkness if you take the noble feats or are you stuck with it? The sorcerer is the only person in the party with blindscence, all other party members have dark vision which deeper negates.

Jeremy Smith wrote:

Not to be defensive, but I'm not sure what information you'd like to see come out.

With only a few exceptions, all Ultimate Psionics Kickstarter backers at the $50 and $100 tiers have had their books shipped (and those remaining have been contacted because we need their address). Most of the preorders have shipped or will shipped this week.

I was pretty open that they're shipping straight from the printer, as if I got them sent to me and then sent them off myself, it would take even longer. The problem is that with so many posts, threads, and the like, that information seems to get missed by more than actually see it. And by shipping in this fashion, it is costing us money that we did not expect to pay on extra shipping costs, as we had set up our reward levels expecting everything to ship together. Instead, I'm shipping out hardcovers now while the rest of the rewards are still in production, incurring additional shipping charges in the interest of getting people their books as quickly as possible. I had asked our printer about batch order processing to do it all as one big shotgun blast, but they were unwilling to set that up, so I enter each order by hand, a time-consuming and tedious process. (Note, I've been writing this post while waiting for the page to reload while getting more books shipping.)

The situation is that I'm single-handedly handling fulfillment shipping out hundreds of copies of Ultimate Psionics. That's not even factoring in the other portions of the Ultimate Psionics Kickstarter that also have to ship out and that I'll also be handling. And the Miniatures that I'm handling.

This is not to complain - I willingly took on these tasks and have had hundreds of books shipped and have personally packed and shipped dozens of miniatures. But the fact is that for MOST of these orders, our software doesn't have a way to automatically send out updates. Backers of the Miniatures project are the exception, as they're on our new store software that I'm still working to enhance...

I for one appreciate all the hard work Jeremy, the quality of the books you have released has been excellent & judging by the free PDF I got with my pre-order Ultimate seems the cream of the crop! The effort & passion your whole group has put into bringing psonics into Pathfinder in a fair & balanced way is nothing short of amazing especially for a small business! I am sure many others feel the same as I do, Thank you.

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You could find "useless" magic items you could drain or items that were good at the beginning of the game that become kinda meh later or situational items for this to work. A wand, scroll, or staff that casts feather fall, water breathing, sleep, owls wisdom etc. they can be awesome in the right situations but most of the time they would be useless. The DM could work with you allowing you to find said items in treasure cashes.

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I tried to make a few home brew Changeling traits myself tell me what you think:
*Hidden Self (Blood Hag): +4 racial bonus to disguise checks to look like your fathers race.

*Foggy Vision (Mute Hag): +1 racial bonus vs. gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, & other attack forms that rely on sight.

*Restless Sleep (Night Hag): The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against sleep spells & effects.

Winter Casting (Winter Hag): The changeling casts all spells with the [cold] descriptor at +1 caster level. (thanks to Berselius)

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