The Mortonator's page

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doctor_wu wrote:
Now this thread is making me wonder if I am a horrible person for being able to read the book of the damned right before bed and still go to sleep.

Not having trigger points doesn't make someone bad. This is more about making the product more secure for those that do.

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PannicAtack wrote:

The Beguiling Gift boon idea is an interesting one, but I'm a little less sure about the other details. In a way it looks like it kind of... waters down the menace? I mean, daemons are about death and evil in its purest form. Taking it and its cultists from "someone who is going to hurt you and kill you horribly" to "someone who's just going to scare you" feels less compelling to me.

But then again if I'm being honest, I suppose I wouldn't really care what the changes were. They could do something in an errata and I wouldn't even really notice. If a change were made I'd probably just go "huh. Okay." and then go on with my day. I dunno.

I'd argue that reaction is why watering it down is better. While going full grimdark might be something you are okay with- And I'll admit, I like me some full grimdark- it's not okay for a lot of people. And ultimately this wasn't necessary. Full grimdark has been maturely and immaturely added to games by GMs forever. We don't need this type of support for it.

I'm not sure how to phrase this, but it feels much like the same violation of standards as if someone suddenly included grim dark without talking to the rest of the table. It's uncomfortable and even if I am okay with the grimdark topic in question the out of nowhereness of it would be grounds for me to stop a game and talk to the player about it.

PannicAtack wrote:
And honestly, 'collectors editions because suppressed content' feels a little silly to me. We're talking about a minor entry in a minor section. Like, did earlier copies of Ultimate Equipment become big items before the changes to Snapleaf? I dunno, I don't think that makes sense.

I agree, nothing here really feels cult status worthy.

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Shaudius wrote:

I thought a lot about this idea on the train ride home today. Specifically with regard to D&D and the moral panic of the 80s. How this issue would be sound-bited in the media and misconstrued until it was D&D(the general public wouldn't know the difference between Pathfinder and D&D) causes you to worship devils and molest children.

The reason I thought about it a lot on the ride home was because that's exactly what the OP reminded me of, it was over the top full of hyberbole suggesting Paizo is promoting child abuse, Paizo is going to be known as the child abuse company, etc., etc. (and his posts continue to be so, yours less so, but I'm still getting a lot of moral panic vibes.)

But that's I think a lot of the response you're getting here, a gut reaction to being attacked (even though we're not Paizo) a la the moral panic of the 90s.

You do bring up a good point. Critique like this can remind us of the outside force of the 80ies that was trying to demonize a game we all love. I remember before TotalBiscuit talking about how sometimes people in his age range can be particularly kneejerk because of the implications.

Yet, every industry should have standards and some respect to the morals in which it is being released. People are expressing their negativity to this industry releasing the material the way they did so.

Most of us are not orators. We don't always react in a manner that makes it easy to respond to. When there is a crowd of uncouth auditory tools, perhaps even deaththreats, it is easy to dismiss as childish or immature. It's easy to justify a lack of being able to express one's outrage as being outraged for childish reasons.

However, let me share with you one of my favorite quotes from Martin Luther King Jr.

"A riot is the voice of the unheard."

When in a mass such as that the internet gives us it is near impossible to make our voices matter to those around us. Perhaps sometimes these mass threats and negative attention are unjustified or justified for dark reasons. However, I would implore everyone to try to understand intent. Understanding is a gift of humanity, and a lack of it our greatest bane.

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Perhaps whether or not it is okay to include truly terrible acts of evil at a table should depend on the table. Perhaps it is acceptable to include setting material to support the darkest paths.

It's not okay to include a deific obedience style ability for this. We don't need deific obediences for NPCs. It's not a helpful GM tool. It's a format that invites players to look at and consider it. For such pure evil a line about his followers' actions would've been more appropriate.

It's not okay to include as little warning as this book does. Warning are not about existing or not. They should be appropriate to the content within. The warnings in similar books of DnD's history were far better at exploring the ideas of clear consent to use such materials this book pays lip service to.

It's not okay to do so while the issues of sexual abuse are being laid front and stage for American without some respect to the context into which the material is being released.

It's not okay to be slow to act after realizing how bad this is.

Traysheia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
If I recall correctly, the archetypes were written and then another person on the team went back and added Suggested Shinobi Talents. I would assume this is a disconnect between the two and would advise ignoring the suggested talents were it is in error.
Thankies, Mortonator! I know anytime I have rules questions to come to the discussion boards or the errata faq, but third-party stuff is a fox of another color, right?

Yep, this should be fine. N. Jolly usually keeps up to date with these threads. (And clearly my color is best color. :p #vain)

Traysheia wrote:

I actually have a bit of a conundrum, as the Hand of the Kami archetype has a rather glaring contradiction in it.

It specifically bars taking ninja trick or master trick with shinobi talents, but then it's "suggested" to take both a ninja trick AND a master trick later (the immediate following "paragraph", actually).

So, are Hands of the Kami able to make use of ninja tricks and master tricks, or not?

*very confused white kitsune fades into the shadows to await an answer*

If I recall correctly, the archetypes were written and then another person on the team went back and added Suggested Shinobi Talents. I would assume this is a disconnect between the two and would advise ignoring the suggested talents were it is in error.

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So, here's a thought. I was looking at Spheres of Power again and then at the clunky "Combat Training for Non-Spheres of Might Classes" table. So, why not handle non-spheres of might classes the same way spheres of power did? A more personal approach would be more fitting. Especially for classes like the Rogue that would focus on scout and scoundrel type of spheres.

Combat Training
A rogue may combine combat spheres and talents to create powerful martial techniques. Strikers are considered Proficient practitioners.

This replaces the rogue talents gained at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels.

Roguish Intuition
A rogue treats her class level as her base attack bonus with the scoundrel and scout spheres. This stacks normally with base attack bonus gained from other sources.

As an aside, I wouldn't mind that treatment for Spheres of Power characters either. Giving an update treatment to elementalist, mageknight, and maybe even combat hedgewitch would be aces.

(Forgive me if someone suggested something similar already. I haven't read through all the thread.)

I heavily recommend picking up some third party materials if you try this. Maybe something by some N. Jolly bloke I may or may mot have worked with before.

I mean, at 5th I can totally understand wanting Footstomp more. (Then you can start to pretend everything is Kung Fu Hustle! *shot*) Going past 9th without it would be waaaay too heretical though.

d'Eon wrote:
There just comes a point where you've optimised enough.

Le gasp! Don't tell the high level power builders that!

But yea, I don't understand avoiding multiclassing. One of my favorite parts of builds! Cheesy multiclassing for daaays. XD But, in general I definitely would rather have a good CC or nitch option over more raw damage. Why I like the Brawler so much more. Though, Style Strikes are super awesome. Even if it feels like Flying Kick just outshines the rest for being so mandatory.

I mean, if the desire is so dire I shouldn't see why one feat would be so bad.

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d'Eon wrote:
Now the thing that keeps me from using the katana and just sticking with fists is this: a CR 12 creature has 160 HP according to the table. Both monks will drop their foe in two rounds by themselves, or one round if they have a buddy putting out at least as much damage as them. So why bother with the katana and multiclassing if it isn't enough to go from two-shotting an enemy to one-shotting them?

This is actually a fairly interesting and often overlooked point. What does winning the DPR Olympics actually do for your character?

Of course, not every monster is the average. There can definately be those that are abnormal. And though the Katana might be more costly, I am not sure multiclassing on a martial can be counted as a real disadvantage. I don't think Monk has thay much stuff that loosing a Monk level is a big deal. And furthermore for most of your career (barring games that stop at level 12) you will be ahead a little bit more because 12 is a key level for unarmed strike damage.

Honestly, I will probably never play either. But from what is presented the Monk with the Katana has a much more tempting target for enchantments than the unarmed Monk.

1: Core Full-Attacks for a Unchained ability to move and full attack.
2: Cavalier. It's a class where 90% of your options fall under five stars or one star. And the flavor could easily be done another way.
3: I wouldn't get rid of high level spells per say, but I would probably throw out text on a lot of them for a much longer casting time or shorter effect. Probably throw out that low level cheat around money spell too.

I would err on the side of John's answer. While damage numbers for high optimized campaigns repeatable report the Kineticist is under performing in damage, this doesn't take into account how much "cheaper" they are than damage monsters in terms of resources and their utility abilities.

I would be very careful what type of bonus drinking gives you. Cutting Gather Power for an ability to drink away the Burn from a blast would be fine. Probably even a strict downgrade. Unlimited utility wild talents would break the class though.

....I need to see what craziness is happening here when I get design time...

Texas Snyper wrote:
I dunno, the post title is telling me to stay away.

Heheh, the name actually comes from my YouTube channel. I've found it was infinitely easier for people to remember and type in than my real name and the condentation was mean to be along the lines of, "This Texan is super scary good at taking out people in games."

Riflestorme wrote:
Ha, not an indictment; no worries.

Not taken as such! ^_^ I appreciate typos being pointed out to me.

Riflestorme wrote:

Looking forward to both Chapter 2 and Chapter 3, then. Very excited.

On a side note, in your "Kinetic Caster" feat, you have the sentence '...if you fail you must take the burn you were going to accept and loose the wild talent...'. Was 'loose' intentional here?

Hope that writer's block explodes in a shower of elemental gravity-time shards, in any case.

There are more than a few typos in all the examples given. Most of them have already been found, but the final product will be edited by a professional. (I.E. not my terrible english. XD )

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*flails into thread*

So, the first book... Is litterally pages from finished. I have the art and over 90% written. In fact, so is the second book.

The bad news? I hit a writting block of epic proportions. The intress expressed does help me power through it though.

Riflestorme wrote:
This is exactly what I've been looking for for literal weeks. I hope this is still in development; if so, my journey may finally be at an end. One thing though: any chance of a feat/archetype that'll tie class abilites to DEX or CHA? I'm not above bribing you to include one.

For general purposes, chapter 2 will be more up your alley as chapter 1 will focus on elemental races. That said, chapter 2 might hit hot off the heels of 1 since I have delayed FAR too long. (Curse this block!) And Chapter 1 has a lovely set of feats and wild talents for Cha as well as style feats for earth based around Str. Even though they are focused on the elemental races, I did try to put a bit of a basic starter kit of general feats and talents for all to help make builds buildable.

There was a 3e divergent game I played where it did address having multiple armor suits on, but the cost was that you only got the armor bonus of the armor on top. The rest were clothes you just happened to have on under the armor. (Though you did get the benefits of any special mundane abilities such if a suit makes concealing a weapon easier that's fine.) There were rules like, you can't wear a light suit over a medium suit for obvious reasons. Basically just, common sense things though I think their example character wore two sets of medium armor. One of which was basically a sci-fi flight jacket.

I would probably rule in favor of that. Given that there is no particular reason really to not.

There is no WoP support for it, (Shocker...) but the Mesmerist Vox archetype is exactly what you are asking for.

QuidEst wrote:
If you do go with Overwhelming Soul, pairing it with Elemental Annihilator is a fun way to get a mental stat for a two-handed fighting build's damage. Dump strength, grab Weapon Finesse at 1st, and then pre-req free Power Attack at 2nd. Since both archetypes hurt your utility talents and diminish the importance of composite blasts (without actually overlapping), the two stack nicely so long as you go with a physical blast.

This is actually a fair smart way to go about it. And goes nicely thematically with an Ifrit.

Undine is the best. Pretty much strictly speaking. You can go with Ifrit as well. Buuuut Overwhelming Soul is a bit trash first party. Ifrit would rather have a Con boost than a Dex boost normally. Sadly they don't.

Gerald wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Veiled Illusionist is really good as well.
I've got a Cleric (of Sivanah, of course) 5/Veiled Illusionist 5 that is a crap-ton of fun to play. Getting otherwise unavailable sorc/wiz Illusion spells onto a cleric chassis is pretty sweet.
Now that's clever! I've not even considered adding that to a cleric chassis. Now, I'm off to check that out!

Veiled Illusionist works on pretty much every form of casting chassis. The worse is probably the most obvious Arcane classes, unless you are pulling Words of Power shenanigans. You can even go with Druid, but getting the requisite Illusion spells on your list to qualify for the PrC is slightly tricky. But, a Supernaturalist or Feyspeaker can easily manage it about a level late. It's almost strictly worse than Cleric, but eh. I like Druids.

There's also Enchanting Courtesan which I suppose is a Enchantment version of Veiled Illusionist. Sounds super good for social games.

I think the only case in which you could use something not normally finessable is like the Fighter AWT.

Dracoknight wrote:

Levels in vigilante to screw with scrying.

Allies to make you magic items and spells stored in spell-store weapons and armor or/and scrolls.

Actually, Ultimate Intrigue's antiscying goodies are fair game for Unchained Rogue already.

I'm a bit timid spliting levels. The more instant kill sneak attack abilities you have the better. I could swear there is like a Ninja or Rogue way to assassinate both can get and the normal capstone for Rogue.

avr wrote:
True seeing doesn't 'spot creatures who are simply hiding' in PF, and it says 'sees invisible creatures or objects normally' which doesn't sound like it calls out that they're invisible exactly, it just negates invis.

That does negate the concealment granted by invisiblity. So, in general I would suggest not joining that arms race. Unless you have a way of winning like a level 20 Ninja. Ninja might be more reliable for mage slaying.

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You have to play a Rogue like, well, a Rogue if you want to beat that challenge.

In other words, there shouldn't BE a combat. There should be a surprise round and a lot of Batman style prep. Work out which instant kill is your best approach, and then stick to that. Be the Wizard's BFF able to lie out your teeth and backstab him. Sneak up while he is asleep. Something like that.

Of course, in theory sneaking up while a Wizard is asleep at level 20 should be a problem if he chooses to be on another plane. Divination is less of a problem than people would believe. Among other things you have two talents that avoid divination spells for DC 15 + Rogue Level. Being careful and aware of the different spells that can track people will make it relatively easy.

If the Wizard was instead a Psychic though, Akashic Form would screw you incredibly hard. Divination Wizard's Forewarn is tricky to outmaneuver too. But, it's definitely possible.

N. Jolly wrote:

I'll give this a whirl.

#10 Spiritualist: It's the summoner 3.0, but hey, I like summoners, and I like the idea behind this class.

Nyan~ Good thing I kept pestering you to read it.


  • 10 Unchained Rogue:
    A lot is freed up by the inclusion of Dexterity stuff to unchained Rogue. Building a proper Rogue is now much easier. But, it ends up low on the list due to no archetypes rule the OP put forwards. With archetypes, I love it a lot more.

  • 9 Mesmerist:
    I will probably never play a Mesmerist, but I love the Occult classes and of all of the 6th level casters the Mesmerist captured my attention the most. I just wish Fey Trickster had tricky spells and was less MAD. As I understand it uses both Wis and Cha...

  • 8 Brawler:
    Brawler is like a spontaneous caster of combat feats with all of them on his spell list. That's pretty amazing. There's so many feats out there one would never take that become perfect in just the right situation.

  • 7 Sorcerer:
    I disagree with the evaluation that a Sorcerer is worse than a Wizard in Pathfinder. It's far more focused, but if you spend that focus on versatile spells you can do a lot of amazing things with stupid DCs. Whereas Save or Suck is unreliable for the Wizard the Sorcerer can make it far more steady. There's also some STUPID good arcana out there.

  • 6 Kineticist:
    This class captured my dreams from the days of Bionicle and Roborider. I love it to bits and it's one of the most creative classes released.

  • 5 Psychic:
    I wouldn't even play with archetypes with a Psychic, so of the classes I like it eeks out ahead by a wide margin.

  • 4 Mystery Cultist:
    Nyan~ Technically PrCs count! ...and I really like worshiping Arshea. Psychics are pretty good at it too. They have some Cha dependence and can still use Fervor.

  • 3 Evangelist:
    Is this cheating? This is probably cheating.

  • 2 Enchanting Courtesan:
    I haven't really tried this one out yet so I'm not sure if it will really work great, but being able to cast Enchantment spells without anyone noticing is a very Rogueish approach to magic I really like. It's definitely only really playable in an intrigue game, but I like games with people as opponents rather than monsters. It's just odd this one isn't as effective for Psychics. Having components actually makes it harder to notice casting. If only there was a Sorcerer that had free access to the entire psychic casting list...

  • 1 Veiled Illusionist:
    No shocks here. This one just takes illusion magic and makes it better. It does in practice what most PrCs are supposed to do in theory.


  • 10 Shaman:
    It's not a bad class... I think. It's just... forgettable. I never look at it for very long or remember it when I reach for a class. There are a lot of Divine classes that are not it's parent class and yet feel like they fulfill roughly the same role only more interesting. This class is just never on my radar.

  • 9 Unchained Barbarian:
    ...why? No thanks, I'm much happier with the old.

  • 8 Investigator:
    Everything I don't care about from Rogue and then Alchemist semi-casting. I never really cared much about Alchemist casting, it's the other stuff that makes that class for me. At least Psychic Investigator exist, but still keeps a bit of the Rogue trap based garbage. Can I use that to detect trap class features?

  • 7 Shadowdancer:
    I want to like this class. I desperately want to. But, hell hath no fury like a Mort scorned. The Shadowdancer is just so terribad it hurts my soul. At least there are plenty of archetypes to replace it and Kineticist.

  • 6 Medium:
    I can't even tell you what this class does. It just feels confusing and weak. Why wasn't this a 6th level caster? Why does the Spiritualist feel like it fulfills this thematic role better? What's the point?

  • 5 Gunslinger:
    Awesome flavor, but just boring and terrible class design.

  • 4 Slayer:
    It's a variant Unchained Rogue that Paizo forgot about and doesn't hand the goodies.

  • 3 Swashbuckler:
    I don't actually dislike this class. But if we are talking sans archetypes, it's hot garbage thanks to it's parent classes. Archetypes make this class.

  • 2 Cavalier:
    It's not so much that this class can't be build to be good, it's that sooooo much of it are trap options. Majority of orders become red at higher levels and there are a few that are purple. Why?! Dwarfs have a stupid good FCB for no reason. Some class features are terrible while others are just too good. Even though we aren't including archetypes so many of them are bloody awful. It's just a mess of a class.

  • 1 Inner Seas Pirate:
    ...What the hell?

Ventnor wrote:
I don't think the Paladin's spellcasting restrictions are that bad, actually. Here are the spells that a Silver Champion Paladin can cast:

I actually really like this list. Keeps Divine Favor and gives Fly and some odd spells a Paladin wouldn't normally get. I'm down with it.

So, turns out I am later than I thought. A mix of very unfortunate personal situations for those on the project ended up holding us up. However! The end is very much in sight. The art is all set and I'm touching up the chapter before laying out the PDF.

In the meantime, I have a book out through Purple Duck Games for Vigilantes out there.

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I would love to revisit it if it is well received and I have the time.


Stunning Sneak Attack makes it harder to keep reliable. Way more talents. Better talents. It's not really a fair fight.

Imbicatus wrote:
I would stay away from magus, the spell list is light on utility.

Or you could just take Spell Blending for every Magus Arcana and still be a vastly better 6th level caster than the Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel. Two skill points just ain't worth it for that many barren levels. And Sneak Attack becomes a lot less valuable when it falls below 1/3rd of level progression.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
If I were going for Eldritch Knight, I would go for Wizard, not Arcanist or Sorcerer. When you take levels in a Prestige Class, you don't get your Class Abilities from your old Arcane class, and what Arcanist and Sorcerer have over Wizard is mostly those Class Abilities.

The reason why Arcanist is the archetype. It gets an exploit that uses CL for their main class feature, the Black Blade. It's basically the only way I would play Eldritch Knight honestly. You can also take Spellstrike with the weapon. Though, I'm sure most would rather have Spell Combat.

On the other hand, I think the build presented technically can't take a Extra Arcanist Exploit for Spellstrike until 5th because you don't have an Arcanist Exploit class feature until then. Not a huge deal, but I think that's supposed to be how it works.

If you can, another great trick is playing a variant multiclass oracle. *points at battle mystery* That, you want that. Skill at arms saves you the bare pure martial level.

That certainly sounds like a first party problem that will never be fixed first party.

She says, teasing what will likely take another many months to get to.

Milo v3 wrote:
You realize that the damage we're talking about is you wanting a non-legendary pokemon to melt the planet simply by existing right? I think it'd be a lot more reasonable that it's flamethrower attack deals at least 4d6 damage (which is how much damage a flamethrower does in Pathfinder), rather than infinite damage auto-apocalypse caused by slugma simply evolving into it.

You are sciencing wrong. Temperatures three times a Magcargo have existed on planet earth in the form of Lightning Bolts. Granted, they exist as a flash in the pan, but there is a huge difference between something's inner temperature and it's outer temperature.

Milo v3 wrote:
So? You're giving it power equal to a god.


As The Sideromancer correctly points out, there are "normal" Pokemon that battle gods. And that's in terms of the Uber tier, where Pokemon are fought at their absolute best in a competitive format. A "wild god" is far less frightening and easy to take down. Heck, there are SEVERAL demi-gods and Regigigas in the PU tier. On par with Raticate.

In the Pokemon world, a rat will take on demi-gods. Oh, and the being that gave the world emotions is NU. Have fun!

Milo v3 wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:

How is that so much different from "a wizard did it?" I am well aware of what is expressed in Pokedexes. But isn't it more fun to have characters researching what keeps Magcargo in check rather than dismissing it out of hand?

These are inherently high powered magic ridden creatures. In a game where Wish exists we will just dismiss those as too absurd?

It's sort of like if the bestiary said that fire elementals were as hot as the surface of the sun, yet still only dealt 1d6 fire damage. It looks stupid and no one is going to actually rule that it deals any more than 1d6 fire damage.

That's exactly my point in reverse. Why would a Pokemon do damage as low as 1d6 fire damage? From my point of view, it looks stupid and feels stupid for these monsters to do extremely low damage.

We are talking about a fully evolved fire-type Pokemon. It's CORE body temperature is hotter than the Sun's SURFACE. For people who aren't aware, the Sun's surface is no where near "hotter than the Sun." I can come up with far more terrifying entries, such as Alakazam or Gardevoir, without even thinking. Fully evolved Pokemon are far better suited to mythic or gestalt games than even trying to fit into low CR.

On another note, a level 1 Weedle (one of the weakest Pokemon) should at least be as or more dangerous than a Venomous Snake. And a swarm of them isn't remotely dangerous to a level 5 Bulbasaur. Magcargo are fully evolved level 38 Pokemon. Somehow my eyeball math isn't putting them on the same level as an Elder Fire Elemental.

Dasrak wrote:
I personally would disagree. Pokemon show a powerful set of abilities.
The pokedex entries are comically hyperbolic. In the case of Magcargo, the pokedex entry lists a heat level that's so extreme that it would reduce everything for miles around into an irradiated wasteland. If you actually statted Magcargo like this, it would actually end up being unfaithful.

How is that so much different from "a wizard did it?" I am well aware of what is expressed in Pokedexes. But isn't it more fun to have characters reseaching what keeps Magcargo in check rather than dismissing it out of hand?

These are inherently high powered magic ridden creatures. In a game where Wish exists we will just dismiss those as too absurd?

HyperMissingno wrote:
I also suggest not taking the Pokedex too literally when it gives out a number, otherwise you have magcargoes running around melting everything.

I personally would disagree. Pokemon show a powerful set of abilities. I think people undersell their abilities to be more in line with common creatures, but they are supposed to be extremely extraordinary. The anime is not really a faithful interpretation. Ninetales, a not very heavily stated Pokemon, can use mind control and turn people into Pokemon.

The first thing I would suggest is a Pokemon sub-type being designed with the appoperate Pokemon type rules spelled out in it.

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Could just use the actual Star Wars d20 game as a starting point.

nennafir wrote:
Honestly, I think people are being too demanding here. Is the witch particularly known for blasting? No, not really. So is it really a problem that they get an at-will blasting ability that does okayish (but not great) damage? No, not really.


N. Jolly wrote:
So, any news on when we should expect the first volume of this to come out? Also obvious thread bump is obvious.


The ETA is the next few weeks, though I would be leaning towards three weeks. The artist has half of the drawings done and the editor hasn't gotten her hands on it yet. We're looking at about 40+ pages of content with some great traditional art and a handful of things left for me to finish writing. I took a break to write some Vigilante books for a few publishers, and am coming back to it fresh next week (in a few days) to finish up the remaining pieces!

After the artist finishes I'll assemble it in adobe and check back over the rules on how to get a 3P product officially released. Before then, I might set up a temporary system so that people can buy it directly from me via Patron or PayPal.

And yes, I am dragging my heels to make sure the first release is some of the best quality people have seen from third party publishers.

In the meantime, does anyone have any desires or wishes for the first chapter? New things you would like to see for races who should have a deep connection to Kineticists?

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Chess Pwn via's Mort's brain wrote:
"At 1st level, in addition to selecting a standard patron and gaining patron spells"

I'm not seeing the problem here.

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cavernshark wrote:
The Havocker does not select a patron, nor do they receive patron spells. The text should probably include a note at the bottom of the ability where it usually says what it alters or replaces, but I don't see how you can read the replacement ability description and come to the conclusion they do keep a patron.

Because I didn't believe it could possibly be that bad?

Because I assumed from the poorly written flavor text it was implying in addition to parton spells?

Because the standardized format tells me if it is not at the bottom it is not traded?

Because that level of terrible just can't be believed?

Because honestly, what?

I'm sorry. I still don't believe you.

That can't be right at all. Nope.

My brain refuses to accept this information.

It is not at the bottom. They have to remain. Your patron grants you a disipline as well. I'm... I think I am actually in the denile stage?

Let's assume for a moment this heresy is true. In that case... Is the Witch spell list really good enough to make it a Tier II class? Or is this a Tier III archetype?

Take evasive action!

You do actually keep patron spells. But you throw away all your Hexes for... pretty much a fancy crossbow. If you ever actually use an Infusion that's not 1st level you are crazy. Hexes are so powerful, without them it's a (bad) Tier II class.

Dracoknight wrote:

Oh well, personally me and my group rule Spell-likes of being spells for those purposes at least.

But i always considered "spell-likes" for being "Like a spell" in the purpose that they are basically a spell with a weird form of casting as its a inate magical capability of the creature. ( Whereas ability focus and the like are for those which are not "like-spells" if you get my drift ^^;, )

Oh, in a home game I would absolutely agree. I just wouldn't count on that for PFS at all. While you can probably get away with it with some people, others might peg you for it and near as I can tell they wouldn't be wrong.

Here's the relevant FaQs. And if you look at anything from Ultimate Intrigue you will notice the new wording on everything that applies to both. This implies (though doesn't state) the direction Pathfinder is moving in.

And again, I totally expect errata fixing past things to include this wording. I'm just saying that RaW the word "like" is very shakey ground in Pathfinder and often ruled against.

Dracoknight wrote:

I found something a bit back.

Since there havent been a FAQ about it yet, i guess Owens words is the closest we get for an answer.
My own possibly wrong self since I can't remember where I saw this at wrote:
TBF, a while back it was originally ruled that having a spell-like counts as casting a spell. ... However, they changed that and have been moving in the direction that the two are distinct.

Dracoknight wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Mean Dean wrote:
I didn't realize the Kitsune Magic racial trait wouldn't affect the Magical Tails abilities, the description in the book just says the DCs are CHA based so I just assumed it would work since they're enchantment effects.
Yeeeeah, it's a bit daft and some things should probably be errated for both.

Just wondering where it does say that you dont get the benefits to spell-likes, technically they are called "spell-likes" for a reason?

Are you sure you are not talking about the Extraordinary or Super-Natural abilities?

Well, they are spell-like, as in simular but not as. TBF, a while back it was originally ruled that having a spell-like counts as casting a spell. Which lead to early access PrCs. However, they changed that and have been moving in the direction that the two are distint.

Like I said, a bit daft. If you wanna ask your GM if things like Spell Focus work, by all means do. I think Spell Focus is just legacy wording errors myself.

Ability Focus does work, but no way on that in PFS.

Mean Dean wrote:
I didn't realize the Kitsune Magic racial trait wouldn't affect the Magical Tails abilities, the description in the book just says the DCs are CHA based so I just assumed it would work since they're enchantment effects.

Yeeeeah, it's a bit daft and some things should probably be errated for both.

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