| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do not think that the two principals who remain at Ninja Division willfully and knowingly misled me.
I'll let you interpret that as you will.
That means a lot to me, personally. I find it easy to forgive errors of judgement - particularly in fickle, creative industries. I don’t have a lot of time for conmen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With luck, we'll see the project come to fruition, and we'll all be able to enjoy, if begrudgingly, joining in on the project. While I don't have a whole lot of belief that I'll see the minis I ordered, I still hold out hope.
Like Erik said: the minis they did provide, especially the prepaints, were pretty amazing all around, and frankly I would like to see more of them.
I have a real desire to get to get a couple of the Vesk Fleets when/if they come out (especially if there's a prepaint version, but will gladly paint my own). I'm working on retooling the Dead Suns campaign to make the ending (and seeding bits throughout) a more epic, cinematic battle where a ragtag fleet of small factions the players encountered and aided throughout joins them and hits the Corpse Fleet to distract them and slow them down (forcing them to divide their forces). Kind of a nod to Mass Effect when your fleets engage the Reapers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Erik,
I appreciate your response. Nobody is perfect, and your response seems like its going to help the issue.
However.....
Your response is about a month too late. Your CS people have been raked over the coals and thrown in front of the bus loaded with angry customers. They were given little to no information to pass onto us and were left unsupported by the management that did this deal.
Radio silence from you for what, months? Thats really all we wanted. Isn't too hard really to pop in and say "Im working on it" or "Another meeting with ND, no real progress", especially when the CS team is prodding for some scrap of info to throw at us.
A simple "Im meeting with the ND staff at GAMA to get to the bottom of this" would probably have made us really damn happy to hear that the management cares.
As much as the CS staff did a damn good job, the writing on the wall (to me) is that Paizo Heads dont care about its customers, or its CS staff. If they did, CS would have the tools available to keep us informed, and you would have made an appearance as soon as ND went belly-up. We had a frustrated CS rep post from the heart, and now comes your mea culpa.
Thats all I have to say.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As much as the CS staff did a damn good job, the writing on the wall (to me) is that Paizo Heads dont care about its customers, or its CS staff. If they did, CS would have the tools available to keep us informed, and you would have made an appearance as soon as ND went belly-up. We had a frustrated CS rep post from the heart, and now comes your mea culpa.Thats all I have to say.
Yeah, that's all fair. I've been meaning to come in here for a while. As I said, I'm sorry that I have not done so.
Customer Service & Community Manager
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Your CS people have been raked over the coals and thrown in front of the bus loaded with angry customers. They were given little to no information to pass onto us and were left unsupported by the management that did this deal.
I've seen this sentiment get raised a few times recently. When I hear it, I feel like me and my team are being used as ammunition in a narrative that pits us against Erik & the other execs. I'm not comfortable with how it turns this into Us vs Them. This combative framing doesn't help any part of this.
Erik and Glenn (our licensing manager) in particular have proactively sat down and talked with me and made sure I was looped into discussions when needed. CS can't pass information along to this thread because there hasn't been information to pass along, not because we've been left unsupported.
There are plenty of frustrations to go around with the masterclass minis, please don't manufacture additional ones on behalf of me or my team.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't too hard really to pop in and say "Im working on it" or "Another meeting with ND, no real progress", especially when the CS team is prodding for some scrap of info to throw at us.
This was the exact same thing being demanded from CS and as soon as Sara Marie obliged people continued to complain so I’m unsure of any goodwill this would provide.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eric, I wanted to say first and foremost. Thank you for posting.
That isn't what has impressed me in the last 24 hours though. We expected a post much earlier, as you know. The delay raised the anxiety of alot of your customers, me included. It raised tensions and in my opinion leads to the raised tensions between the people frustrated with the kickstarter and the people who, may or may not have backed the kickstarter, want to defend Paizo and the legacy.
You guys have a legacy, this will be a blip in it.
What I want to say is that I am impressed that you continued to come back and answer people. That is the type of communication that I am looking for. Not daily, not even weekly. But when your customers, who rely on your good word, put our money into a system that you guys imagined and built for us? Please communicate.
Can honestly say I put money on the kickstarter and did not intend to buy Starfinder materials until it delivered. I am still in that holding patern. As a fan of Pathfinder I had hopes for Starfinder and while Mini's aren't required to play a game? The 3d element is where I get alot of joy.
Don't wait so long between touching base on this issue. Press for information and continue being an advocate for us. I never thought you weren't, but I was very frustrated that ND went radio silent and Paizo wasn't here to support us.
We invest in you, you should invest in us.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There might be another solution:
Kickstarter itself has a "Trust and Safety Team" that is starting to suspend extemely bad kickstarters, here an example:
Hello,
This message from Kickstarter's Trust and Safety Team. We're writing to let you know that a project you recently backed, Papillion (Suspended), has been suspended. We also want to assure you that your $1.00 pledge has been canceled. To protect our community, we may suspend projects when they demonstrate one or more of the following:
- Outstanding fulfillment issues related to a previously successful crowdfunding campaign
- Running multiple, simultaneous projects
- Failure or unwillingness to clearly communicate with backersAs a result, all backers will be refunded. No further action is required on your part.
We take the integrity of the Kickstarter system very seriously. We only suspend projects when we find strong evidence that they are misrepresenting themselves or otherwise violating the letter or spirit of Kickstarter's rules. As a policy, we do not offer comment on project suspensions beyond what is stated in this message.
We know this isn't ideal. But we do sincerely hope to see you again soon, backing one or more of the amazing projects that do cross the finish line, without a hitch, each and every day.
Here's to next time,
Kickstarter Trust and Safety
Let me see: check, check, check. Hoping that Mexico will pay for it someday is not enough.
That said, thank you Erik for finally after several years posting in this thread and taking this seriously. And yes, you made me lose about 200$ with your vouching for ND. Still, the Paizo/ND relationship reminds me of couples, where the alcoholic husband promisses not to ever drink again.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There might be another solution:
Kickstarter itself has a "Trust and Safety Team" that is starting to suspend extemely bad kickstarters, here an example:
That won't likely happen. Trust me, I'd already reported them as a scam, and this is what I got back from them:
Hi there,Thank you for bringing this project to our attention:
Project: Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures
Report date: March 1, 2019, 6:44 PM EST
Report content:
Provider is not supplying products as pledged. Continued to create more projects without supplying product from previous campaigns. Went dark and stopped updating/responding to questions; now came bac...
We’ve investigated and determined that it doesn’t violate our rules or community guidelines. If you believe there is an issue that’s not covered by our rules or guidelines, please contact us with more details.
If you haven’t already, you can also communicate directly with the project creator.
While we won’t be taking action on this project at this time, we value your input. We rely on reports like yours to ensure the safety and integrity of Kickstarter for everyone.
Thanks again for looking out for the Kickstarter community.
Best,
Kickstarter Trust & Safety
Meanwhile, I have gotten a letter about another kickstarter I was in getting cancelled.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Many of you have expressed that it was my vouching for Ninja Division in the early days of this project that pushed you over the line to make a pledge. If that’s the case with your decision to back, I also apologize to you. I certainly had much higher expectations that have not been met. I was very impressed with Ninja Division’s sculpting abilities and design expertise, and at the time we partnered with them they gave me reason to believe that the various setbacks they had encountered up to that point were unique and in the process of being handled. That gave me faith in them that they have not backed up with action, and I understand your frustration—and share it.
I realize that what I'm about to ask might be a bit tough to answer, but I think it may be genuinely helpful for us to hear your thoughts and answers.
During the campaign, when backers and potential backers saw Paizo putting support behind Ninja Division for this Kickstarter, you received emails -perhaps not you personally Erik, but I know that numerous people emailed customer service and even some of the specific folks in charge at Paizo. Many expressed very serious concern, and the specific reasons that they felt you (again referring to Paizo overall here) should NOT be partnering with them for this or any other business venture.
I'm not talking about generic angry cursing and outrage emails. I saw some drafts people were sending over, and many of them were very well formulated messages. I've only heard of one or two of those people getting a response, which was fairly generic, if they had sent their email to customer service. But nothing else, nor from anyone else.
Knowing that Paizo received a strong reaction such as this, with people reaching out to share very specific causes for you to be concerned, these questions come to mind:
-Why did Paizo not "pull back", "reconsider", or outright cancel this joint venture? Was too much contract ink set in stone before we heard anything about it?
-Why did Paizo continue to speak so positively on their behalf, despite all these warnings?
-Many of the decision-makers associated with this (and numerous other crowdsourced games that have failed to deliver) have jumped over to new companies, where it seems likely they will repeat the same decisions that led to the current ND situation. This makes things a bit more complex than "just don't partner with X company". What will Paizo do differently in the future, to prevent/mitigate this sort of thing from happening to its own fanbase again?
Again, I understand and recognize that ND appears committed to making all of their obligations work. And I respect that they want to see things through. I think many of us simply question whether or not that's possible at this point, and in that regard only time will tell. Fingers crossed, for the sake of everyone who put cash down on ND products.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo team,
This has been a rough situation for all of us, backers, Paizo, and even Ninja Division. Personally, I know that ND didn't put themselves in this situation on purpose, but the fact is, here we are.
I appreciate all the customer service agents and Erik taking the time to tell us they are working on the issue, and the sincere apology.
I'm curious about a couple things, which I realize Paizo as a company may not be able to answer, but perhaps to consider?
1. Is there a timeline in place for how long the current situation will remain before Paizo pursues an alternative course of action on this? ie, if ND still lacks funding by date x/y/z, will Paizo try to do something else for this situation? If we had some sort of end date in sight, even if we don't know what the result will be, I think that would be immensely helpful.
2. Is there the possibility that Paizo even *can*, in some capacity, pursue an alternative course of action? I realize ND is its own company, and NDA are in place, but is there even anything Paizo *can* do, if it wants to? (Not to throw rotten fruit, mind you, I just like hard facts.) I think many backers feel like Paizo has more strength to express in this situation than they presently are, but I'm not so sure that's the case.
I appreciate in advance your consideration and time,
And how did a small company like ND lose several MILLION dollars in 2-3 years without producing almost anything? Was it drugs?
And why should anyone invest money into a business that loses several million dollars without producing anything. He would get more by giving 50,000 $ to Greebo. https://www.greebo-games.com/
I think there is no solution with ND as a company, when the owners obviously can't deal with money. Maybe they can be hired as sculptors or something, where they just have to collect their paycheck AFTER delivering a product. As long as it doesn't require handeling business matters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there is no solution with ND as a company, when the owners obviously can't deal with money. Maybe they can be hired as sculptors or something, where they just have to collect their paycheck AFTER delivering a product. As long as it doesn't require handeling business matters.
Ninja division subcontracts out it's sculpting (questron studios is one of their big go tos, to the point that questron had to say that they're not ninja division to avoid a torch and pitchfork mob)
As a middle-person, all ninja division does is deal with money.
Which is really problematic when they run out of money. They don't really exist. There's no factory to repossess, they don't own the warehouse. They don't even own the rights to their hit games because they're technically a separate legal entity than sodapop.
|
Customer Service & Community Manager
|
| 20 people marked this as a favorite. |
Folks, Just a heads up, WizKids has issued a press release regarding WizKids Starfinder Battles Miniatures. We understand this may raise some questions regarding the status of the Ninja Division Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures.
Here is where we (still) sit with that. Ninja Division is late on their Kickstarter, but they are working on a means to fulfill their commitments. We are supporting them as best we can, as our goal is to help them fulfill their Kickstarter, but we cannot discuss anything that might be in progress.
Ninja Division retains a license to create unpainted Starfinder miniatures in order to be able to complete their Kickstarter obligations, and none of that changes with this new partnership.
It’s not unusual to have multiple miniatures partners. Paizo has worked with Reaper and WizKids on Pathfinder miniatures for years. We know there may be additional questions that this raises for you, but we do not currently have any additional information to provide.
Thanks, Sara
Thanks for the update, Sara!
Great news. Like so many of us said back at the start of this, Paizo should've gone with WizKids and/or Reaper from the beginning. I keep wondering why they didn't. My guess is that Paizo was in a rush to get them to market and the other companies couldn't do it on Paizo's "we need this right away" time scale. Of coarse, Ninja Division's time scale is the same it's been for the last 4 years.
If WizKids comes out with unpainted Starfinder minis I'll be pretty thrilled. Other than occasional gloopy primer issues, they've been solid. I'll gladly give WizKids money for Srarfinder minis.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Great news. Like so many of us said back at the start of this, Paizo should've gone with WizKids and/or Reaper from the beginning. I keep wondering why they didn't. My guess is that Paizo was in a rush to get them to market and the other companies couldn't do it on Paizo's "we need this right away" time scale. Of coarse, Ninja Division's time scale is the same it's been for the last 4 years.
If WizKids comes out with unpainted Starfinder minis I'll be pretty thrilled. Other than occasional gloopy primer issues, they've been solid. I'll gladly give WizKids money for Srarfinder minis.
WizKids and Reaper were approached by Paizo and each turned them down.
Reaper already have a science-fantasy line and they didn’t want to compete with themselves. WizKids didn’t have the capacity at the time.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Great news. Like so many of us said back at the start of this, Paizo should've gone with WizKids and/or Reaper from the beginning. I keep wondering why they didn't. My guess is that Paizo was in a rush to get them to market and the other companies couldn't do it on Paizo's "we need this right away" time scale. Of coarse, Ninja Division's time scale is the same it's been for the last 4 years.
If WizKids comes out with unpainted Starfinder minis I'll be pretty thrilled. Other than occasional gloopy primer issues, they've been solid. I'll gladly give WizKids money for Srarfinder minis.
WizKids and Reaper were approached by Paizo and each turned them down.
Reaper already have a science-fantasy line and they didn’t want to compete with themselves. WizKids didn’t have the capacity at the time.
This was noted and explained by Paizo's COO Jeff Alvarez fairly early in this thread as well.
I guess I’ll just write off my $400 dollars as a loss and grumbly wait for the WizKids miniatures because I’m sure they’ll be awesome but I’m still out $400. It’s too bad WizKids couldn’t do this earlier. They are much better partners.
Pre Painted is good. Primed and unpainted are better. Love the deep cuts line, lets get Starfinder in that line too :D
Everyone here are fans of the mini's, giving the license to a capable company is probably the second best possible outcome for the line. First would be if ND manages to deliver....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Unpainted modular metal minis would be the hit for player minis!
Preprimed plastic will do though, the deep cuts aren't bad, although they aren't really good either.
There are many mold lines which translate through the primer and weapons etc. aren't straight often.
Kinda good news though^^
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, I don't actually have any mini's since I tend to play stuff online. What sorts of miniatures do the rest of you recommend, and why?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I understand the announcement was recent, but how far into the ND fiasco did the talks with WizKids start?
I understand the announcement was recent, but how far into the ND fiasco did the talks with WizKids start?
I second this
You know, I don't actually have any mini's since I tend to play stuff online. What sorts of miniatures do the rest of you recommend, and why?
I really like monster miniatures - it doesn’t matter how good I am at describing stuff, nothing is as clear as a three dimensional model.
Unfortunately (for me) PC figures seem to sell better, so there’s usually a preponderance of humanoids in most sets.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, I don't actually have any mini's since I tend to play stuff online. What sorts of miniatures do the rest of you recommend, and why?
I would recommend looking at Infinity and Reaper Chronoscope if you want Starfinder proxie minis. The 2 lines scale well together. You'll find some beautiful scifi character sculpts in the Infinity line, and a few character and monster options in the Reaper catalogue.
I understand the announcement was recent, but how far into the ND fiasco did the talks with WizKids start?
I imagine they started talking to WizKids shortly after they realized that Ninja Division doesn't have any realistic hope of ever delivering the minis. The situation is severe. Even if Ninja Division could magically have all the figures teleported to their warehouse tomorrow, they likely wouldn't even have enough money to ship them to backers. Same with all the other outstanding Kickstarters that they haven't manufactured and delivered.
Folks, Just a heads up, WizKids has issued a press release regarding WizKids Starfinder Battles Miniatures.
Thank you for sharing this happy news. I appreciate your hard work on here
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I understand the announcement was recent, but how far into the ND fiasco did the talks with WizKids start?
I would guess... before
It is well documented that paizo talked with wizkids and they went with ND because WK was unable to meet requirements. This announcement makes me think it was timeline and that WK was always going to have a pre painted line but could not do it to go along with the SF launch date.
I would think they never stopped talking/discussing things with Whizkids.
Or Reaper when it comes down to it.
all of this.
Starfinder is a long term product and they want it to have legs years from now they are not going to give up on an idea that can pop up later and continue to support the product.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In one scenario, Paizo was still talking with WizKids to get a line of minis from them as well, but didn't mention the possibility, and so some people that would perhaps have waited for such a product instead invested in a risky kickstarter and got burned.
In another scenario, Paizo at some point realized ND was likely not going to deliver and turned to another source while keeping their reservations hidden.
In a third scenario, something recently changed at WizKids that let them take on another project and this is a happy coincidence for some people and salt in the wound for others.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As Jeff said earlier in the thread:
When we were ready to discuss the Starfinder brand with our partners, we approached both WizKids and Reaper about the brand and our desire for minis. Obviously we would want to offer a new brand's license to our existing licensees, especially ones that have done such a good job with our brand, but both turned us down. Reaper has their own lines for Sci Fantasy minis and WizKids did not have the sculpting bandwidth for the project.
That door was always open with WizKids (our minis licenses are generally nonexclusive), so when they were ready, we made it happen.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
...the real question is why did Paizo let ND put the Paizo logo in The Who were are section of the Kickstarter... letting people believe that it was a joint venture... and now decline any responsibilities and knowing that nothing will come out ...
Our logo was present on the Kickstarter because it's a licensed product, not a "joint venture." Just like our logo is present on Pathfinder Battles minis boxes, and Q-Workshop dice, and Owlcat's Kingmaker video game, and pretty much every other licensed product ever. That's how licensing works.
Saying we are "declin[ing] any responsibilities and knowing that nothing will come out" is a gross mischaracterization. Please see Sara Marie's post above for what we're really saying.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
On one hand i think it's good that there is now a partnership with WizKids for Starfinder Minis. They will certainly produce the best product they can, which will serve a lot of people well.
On the other hand i'm a bit disapointed.
The statement reads like it would be prepainted minis which come in blisters, which sounds like randomization of content.
That's definately not what i am looking for.
I participated in the ND KS because the minis seemed like high quality unpainted ones, where you know what you get (ironicaly nothing so far in this case).
I want to be able to paint the minis myself and customize them in different ways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...the real question is why did Paizo let ND put the Paizo logo in The Who were are section of the Kickstarter... letting people believe that it was a joint venture... and now decline any responsibilities and knowing that nothing will come out ...Our logo was present on the Kickstarter because it's a licensed product, not a "joint venture." Just like our logo is present on Pathfinder Battles minis boxes, and Q-Workshop dice, and Owlcat's Kingmaker video game, and pretty much every other licensed product ever. That's how licensing works.
Saying we are "declin[ing] any responsibilities and knowing that nothing will come out" is a gross mischaracterization. Please see Sara Marie's post above for what we're really saying.
Having a logo prominent on a product is one thing--I don't know how your licensing agreement reads, but the Kickstarter campaign itself is not a product. If the only Paizo logo present on the campaign site was on a mockup of the packaging for a mini or something like that, I don't think folks would be as justified in complaining. Rather, under the "About Us" section, Paizo is the first entity listed, and it goes beyond your logo. You can see how people would interpret Paizo as being either the primary or a joint partner, right? Or at a minimum, strongly vouching for ND?
|
Rather, under the "About Us" section, Paizo is the first entity listed, and it goes beyond your logo. You can see how people would interpret Paizo as being either the primary or a joint partner, right? Or at a minimum, strongly vouching for ND?
No, I originally read that exactly as Vic said; usually in license deals, the owner of the IP is listed first or more prominently, as they are the more noticeable name. It shows to people that the license that they claim to have is legit.