Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


Third-Party Starfinder Products

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Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

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Folks,

I wanted to drop by to share a conundrum, and to share a bit of my perspective on affairs of the last week.

The conundrum is this: Throughout this process with Ninja Division, but after we realized they were going to have significant difficulties pulling this project across the finish line, there have been numerous behind-the-scenes developments or potential fixes that we have heard about, but that have not come to fruition.

That sort of thing puts us in a difficult place regarding communications. Do we share our sense of hope, only to have it dashed again when something doesn't come through? That's certainly a dilemma that has played into us not being as frequent with updates in the past as we should have been.

I don't want to get people's hopes up, even if I see signs of incremental progress behind the scenes. I hope you all can understand that when we make an announcement regarding this project, we want to be EXTRA CERTAIN that we understand the details and have faith that they are going to occur before sharing them in public.

So I don't have details to convey, and I don't want to give the impression that a solution is in sight or that it looks like the project is back on the road or whatever.

But I DO want to share that, behind the scenes, we have seen a LOT of evidence--especially since the GAMA Trade Show--that Ninja Division is actively working to move the project forward and find solutions for their many difficulties.

I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.

Thanks for your continuing patience, or at least for your continuing attention.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Thanks Eric!

I for one don't blame you guys, sounds like you were between a rock and a hard place trying to get minis out for your new great game. So you went with what was available, even if they weren't your first, or second choice. The minis I did manage to get are pretty cool and I was really excited to get them, then the bottom dropped out.

Hopefully I will get the balance of my minis from them some day, but on the bright side I'm ecstatic that you guys finally have Wizkids onboard!

Thanks for coming on here to talk to us!

Can't wait for GENCON and PF2!


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Erik Mona wrote:
I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.

I can prove I've been trying to lose weight for the last 6 months but the scale in my bathroom says I've gained 3 pounds.

Ninja Division and Palladium "tried" to deliver wave 2 of Robotech tactics (well, Palladum tried, Ninja Division bailed in the first few months after they got paid) for 5 years before admitting it was never happening

Until ND actually ships mini's to backers they can say they are "trying" all they want and it means absolutely nothing to backers.

Backers deserve less "try" and more "do".

I also find it interesting after reports the mini's Archon had already produced being scheduled for destruction I've yet to see word of what actually happened, were they in fact destroyed?

If not, when will they ship?

If they have, how is ND "trying" to overcome that further deficit?

Paying Archon for minis already made and shipping them when ND is broke is bad enough. Paying archon for destroyed mini's, contracting to a new company to manufacture those same minis and paying them on top of what archons owed and then shipping is far is even worse.


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Well ok for the badly misplaced logo.. you did not check correctly... or it was legit... or you get conned by ND (surprise)... that does not matter...
We all know that the only way things will surely sort out is to have someone (a bank, another company... an investor...) invests in ND ... bringing fresh money in exchange for a partial or total takeover of the company (hoping to make it profitable)... for this the 2 current owners of ND must agree (l have my doubt even about this)... and most importantly you have to find a risk taker...
Everything else is (at least partial) b@~~#*++...
That said l can understand Paizo current actions...
I even enjoy my previously bought PF scenarii ( l still have around ten adventures path to complete) with my gaming group (rise of the rune lord is a lot of fun... owned for year before playing it)... even if that's my last bought from Paizo...


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Man, this feels like a sucker punch to the gonads. From a business perspective I understand they "need" minis now. This just feels like dad running off with the babysitter and leaving mom to deal with the aftermath kind of situation. All the while him telling us that he still loves us but only end up seeing him for a few hours at Christmas. I personally have $500 tied up in this kickstarter miniature fiasco, and want to see that come to fruition, which is looking more like wasted money and lesson learned.

I have no more enthusiasm for Starfinder, nor of any of Paizo's other products anymore (and more than likely will just resell all of those products that I own). Actions speak louder than words and I feel there has been little done to show support for us that have been left in the cinders of this kickstarter brush fire. Even the Seoni kickstarter I backed will probably just be resold upon (hopeful) arrival. Even finding out that Dynamite isn't quite as reputable as once thought (They have yet to pay an artist for 2 covers they received back in December. Completely unrelated to Paizo for what that's worth).

Thanks for letting me vent a smidge.


Erik Mona wrote:

Folks,

I wanted to drop by to share a conundrum, and to share a bit of my perspective on affairs of the last week.

The conundrum is this: Throughout this process with Ninja Division, but after we realized they were going to have significant difficulties pulling this project across the finish line, there have been numerous behind-the-scenes developments or potential fixes that we have heard about, but that have not come to fruition.

That sort of thing puts us in a difficult place regarding communications. Do we share our sense of hope, only to have it dashed again when something doesn't come through? That's certainly a dilemma that has played into us not being as frequent with updates in the past as we should have been.

I don't want to get people's hopes up, even if I see signs of incremental progress behind the scenes. I hope you all can understand that when we make an announcement regarding this project, we want to be EXTRA CERTAIN that we understand the details and have faith that they are going to occur before sharing them in public.

So I don't have details to convey, and I don't want to give the impression that a solution is in sight or that it looks like the project is back on the road or whatever.

But I DO want to share that, behind the scenes, we have seen a LOT of evidence--especially since the GAMA Trade Show--that Ninja Division is actively working to move the project forward and find solutions for their many difficulties.

I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.

Thanks for your continuing patience, or at least for your continuing attention.

Is "Set a date sometime in mid-late 2020. If they haven't fulfilled by then, we'll stop power-leveling our thumb-twiddling skill and act." too much to ask?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Lets all be fair to Paizo people. I myself have $700 tied up in the kick-starter as I bought a set for myself and for my brother as a Christmas present. (I think it is actually more like $750 as I added the big blue dragon with the giant gun on its shoulder as well.)Still, we cant blame Paizo for Ninja Division not delivering what and when they said they would. I have finally received a small box of a few of the minis from Ninja Division and hopefully will get more. After all I spent a lot of money here. Unless I am missing something though, why would Paizo be to blame for this?

Paizo, I do want to say thank you though for having this thread and keeping these frustrating situation in your perview even though I am guessing you have no control over what is happening with Ninja Division. Am I wrong?

I still have to give Paizo credit as a company for the issue with the binding on so many of the core Starfinder books. They took responsibility and replaced them, a move I doubt most companies would be willing to make. A move that I bet caused them to take a hit on the profits from said book. That was huge in my eyes and showed how much they care about the quality of their your products and their relationships with us, the customers.

I hear there will be a new line of Starfinder Mini's coming from Wizkids by 2020 and I am looking forward to that! In the meantime I will try to remain positive and hopeful that Ninja Division is able to come through in the end with all the minis I ordered. Maybe I am too much of an optimist but being pessimistic about it wont change the situation. Blaming Paizo wont change anything either. I am glad there will be a great line of minis coming out in the future, perhaps especially if I never get my Ninja Division minis as what would be the alternative, no minis at all? That's not what I want.

Again thank you Paizo for standing out and making me a believer in your company. I actually have faith that you are doing your best, not for profits above everything but for your pride in your product and satisfaction for your customers. There are not many companies I can say that about (maybe no others). I am sure operating in this fashion also puts you at a disadvantage in competing with companies who value profit above all else, but if you keep it up and you'll have a supporter for life here.

Sean Montgomery


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean Montgomery 43 wrote:
I have finally received a small box of a few of the minis from Ninja Division and hopefully will get more.

When did you receive this?


Sean Montgomery wrote:
we cant blame Paizo for Ninja Division not delivering what and when they said they would.

I don't think it's fair to cast other posters for being mad at a delay. The overwhelming evidence is that people area out of the money completely.


I guess I’m just stupid to back any Kickstarter. I’ve only done 5-6, but only TWO of those have panned out. I guess I’ve finally learned my lesson, but I’m still PO’ed about it.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I’ve backed 200 kickstarters and only 4-5 have failed. I’m no smarter than you, just lucky to have gained experience with a minimum of loss.


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I also have a fairly good success rate, though almost all are late to some degree, many to the point I have lost any interest in the product by the time it arrives over a year late.

But the failures have for the most part been truly expensive and more often then not seem to be the result of sheer incompetence on the part of the creators.

The bigger concern to me is that while the 1st few failures were creators new to Kickstarter, I'm seeing more established companies failing because they have fundamental issues with there company and how they execute work resulting in losses on most of there kickstarters that they keep kicking down the road hoping the next kickstarter makes them money and they can get back on top, only to eventually implode leaving the last group of backers totally screwed.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Summersnow wrote:

I also have a fairly good success rate, though almost all are late to some degree, many to the point I have lost any interest in the product by the time it arrives over a year late.

But the failures have for the most part been truly expensive and more often then not seem to be the result of sheer incompetence on the part of the creators.

The bigger concern to me is that while the 1st few failures were creators new to Kickstarter, I'm seeing more established companies failing because they have fundamental issues with there company and how they execute work resulting in losses on most of there kickstarters that they keep kicking down the road hoping the next kickstarter makes them money and they can get back on top, only to eventually implode leaving the last group of backers totally screwed.

This is my big gripe with ND.

Granted we don't have much solid information, but from what we do know it seems pretty clear that they knew things were dire when they launched this kickstarter. That means, they should have budgetted this one better and they should have quarantined the funds and isolated the losses in one project to that specific project.

I've backed kickstarters that have failed for various reasons, but I've never before felt like the creator should have known they were in trouble when they launched. It seems to me that ND should have known - that's why it's upsetting.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've backed twenty Kickstarter projects and all have been delivered as promised. Some were late, but that's not abnormal.

One is still outstanding as the campaign recently ended but I am 100% confident he will deliver as he has done many of these in the past and all of those were successful.

I've also backed three that were unsuccessful in meeting their funding target or were canceled by the creator, but I consider those a wash as I didn't spend any money on them.


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Steve Geddes wrote:


I've backed kickstarters that have failed for various reasons, but I've never before felt like the creator should have known they were in trouble when they launched. It seems to me that ND should have known - that's why it's upsetting.

This, exactly.


Nobody si asking if the wizkids sculpts are the same produced by ND...

So, ¿@Sara Marie, @Eric Mona, they are not the same sculpts, rigth?


I still can't be sure the sculpts exist considering the number of lies ND already has in play here

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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ChiramMFM wrote:

Nobody si asking if the wizkids sculpts are the same produced by ND...

So, ¿@Sara Marie, @Eric Mona, they are not the same sculpts, rigth?

I don't have any insight into the design or sculpting process for miniatures, so unfortunately I can't answer this, I will see if this is something I can ping our licensing manager about. With some of the upcoming events and deadlines looming on the May & June horizons, I'm not sure what the timeframe on finding out more details and/or being able to discuss them would be. I'm very much out of my element for this type of question, but I will try to investigate more.


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Sara Marie wrote:
ChiramMFM wrote:

Nobody si asking if the wizkids sculpts are the same produced by ND...

So, ¿@Sara Marie, @Eric Mona, they are not the same sculpts, rigth?

I don't have any insight into the design or sculpting process for miniatures, so unfortunately I can't answer this, I will see if this is something I can ping our licensing manager about. With some of the upcoming events and deadlines looming on the May & June horizons, I'm not sure what the timeframe on finding out more details and/or being able to discuss them would be. I'm very much out of my element for this type of question, but I will try to investigate more.

With all due respect, it seems as if there is always a deadline or an event coming up that prevents being able to inform us of what we're asking. I feel like that's not a valid excuse anymore as there will always be an upcoming project. If the higher ups can't spend 10 minutes coming here to answer 1 or 2 questions, even if it's "unfortunately we can't discuss that at this time"; that to me, is just as bad a Ninja Divisions "radio silence"


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Ninjaphoenix wrote:
If the higher ups can't spend 10 minutes coming here to answer 1 or 2 questions, even if it's "unfortunately we can't discuss that at this time"; that to me, is just as bad a Ninja Divisions "radio silence"

As this thread has repeatedly shown, that won't abate anything. It will just make people angrier.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't know. It seemed to me that things calmed down for a while when Erik posted his latest comments.

I do think it's worth hearing answers to questions from people who are in a position to know. Customer service have been great about keeping an eye on this thread, but ultimately this isn't really in their wheelhouse, since there's nothing they can actually do for us.

Negotiations/Progress might be slow, nebulous and tedious and the answer may often be "I can't answer that right now" but I don't think we've really seen what will happen if the higher ups step in regularly to address them. I have all my biases/preconceptions, of course, but it felt to me like Erik got a reasonable reception.

For my part, I'll be backing the Paizo kickstarter that launches next week. I probably would have anyway, but Erik stepping in here has definitely increased my comfort in doing so. So commenting here once has paid at least a little bit of a dividend.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't know. It seemed to me that things calmed down for a while when Erik posted his latest comments.

I was specifically referring to the "even if it's 'unfortunately we can't discuss that at this time'" request.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Maybe. To me Erik saying he cant reveal something is different from Sara saying she can't.


technarken wrote:
I still can't be sure the sculpts exist considering the number of lies ND already has in play here

Well as posted on the kickstarter by the ND user id, they claim paizo owns the sculpt models....so time will tell if they will just move the file over to wizkids and just hit print


Ghost725 wrote:
technarken wrote:
I still can't be sure the sculpts exist considering the number of lies ND already has in play here
Well as posted on the kickstarter by the ND user id, they claim paizo owns the sculpt models....so time will tell if they will just move the file over to wizkids and just hit print

That would be horribly upsetting and cause a lot of backlash with the pitchfork mob

Unless somehow a deal was worked out to get wizkids to deliver our minis, but ND doesn’t have the money for that

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Ninjaphoenix wrote:
With all due respect, it seems as if there is always a deadline or an event coming up that prevents being able to inform us of what we're asking. I feel like that's not a valid excuse anymore as there will always be an upcoming project. If the higher ups can't spend 10 minutes coming here to answer 1 or 2 questions, even if it's "unfortunately we can't discuss that at this time"; that to me, is just as bad a Ninja Divisions "radio silence"

I appreciate this feedback. To hopefully, provide a bit of perspective: I'm finding it a hard balance being upfront and realistic about what a response timeline might look like without sounding like a broken record. If it seems like there's always a deadline looming though, it's because there is. I prefer offering explanations rather than excuses, and it gets difficult when the explanations involve details that are not public.

The complexity of dealing with issues that involve another company makes it complicated to just pop in an answer questions. Additionally, this is a contentious subject, and there are a lot of emotional and financial components to it. Things that feel like they should be simple, easy to answer, are rarely simple or easy, and they are never quick 10 minutes check in's and rarely does it involve only one person's time. When I am careful or cautious about answering something, its because I take the backers and this issue seriously and I'm doing my best to ensure responses are not flippant, rushed, or harmful to the pursuit of a resolution.


Ok well this should be an easy question Someone from the paizo staff or through a CSR can answer.

1. Will the models made by Ninja Division which are owned by paizo as per the ninja division rep stated, be used by wiz kids to make the new line of minis?

2. If this will be a totally new line of minis from wiz kids...will it include star ships as part of the blind bag loot table?


As a general note, if Wiz Kids hasn't yet announced what's going to be in the sets, they may not want anyone to publicly say what they're actually going to contain. ...For one thing, they may not have totally finalized what the line will contain yet, so they may not even have an answer to give.


So, by chance, would the licensing fee Paizo was paid cover/have covered getting the minis out of Archon's storage and into ~shudder~ Ninja Division's hands to possibly ship out to backers?

Yeah, Paizo would then not have made money on this deal, at least directly, but maybe we'd all reset to zero in a way...


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I don't think Paizo's cut of this would cover ND's debt to Archon. Besides, doing that would be a horrible decision for Paizo to make, considering ND would likely just fumble the ball again by running out of bubble wrap or packing peanuts. Paizo would then be left with ND in debt to them, with no way for them to pay it off, and the minis would still be out of backer hands.

Paizo would have to actually believe ND to be competent and have the spare capital to risk. Considering the current situation they're in financially, I don't blame them for the inaction there.


Ghost725 wrote:

1. Will the models made by Ninja Division which are owned by paizo as per the ninja division rep stated, be used by wiz kids to make the new line of minis?

2. If this will be a totally new line of minis from wiz kids...will it include star ships as part of the blind bag loot table?

Paizo did state that starships are going to be included in the WizKids line. I would assume that they would be randomized like the rest of the miniatures in the booster. No indication was given to think otherwise.

I would also guess that it is extremely unlikely that Ninja Division is sharing models with WizKids. But if the models are based off the same artwork, some will probably look very similar.

But Paizo may have a better answer.


I mean, what proof do we have that anything but the prepaints even have ND Sculpts?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Um, what proof do we have that the WizKids models will have anything to do with this issue at all?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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I talked with Glenn and Mark about the sculpt question:

Paizo worked with WizKids to determine the initial Starfinder Battles setlist so that it provides enough basic, core figures to run a Starfinder game. (That setlist does includes starships). We went through a similar process with Ninja Division at the start of their Masterclass miniatures project for the same reason, and much of the same reference art was sent to both companies. There's only so much art available for Starfinder, after all.
That said, WizKids and Ninja Division use different manufacturing processes, so it's not as simple as "just hit print" between the two. Either company would need to do significant work to use resources designed for/developed by the other.

I hope that helps give some context.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
technarken wrote:
I mean, what proof do we have that anything but the prepaints even have ND Sculpts?

I've received half a dozen ND unpainted minis. From memory three were the same or similar to the prepainted variety, but three were not.


Steve Geddes wrote:
technarken wrote:
I mean, what proof do we have that anything but the prepaints even have ND Sculpts?
I've received half a dozen ND unpainted minis. From memory three were the same or similar to the prepainted variety, but three were not.

"Half a dozen" vs. the total number of mini's that were supposed to shipped, only 3 of which were different than the prepaints is still essentially "nothing but the prepaints were done"


Sara Marie wrote:
Either company would need to do significant work to use resources designed for/developed by the other.

Yep, that's true, but providing wizkids with all 3d renders that ND has, and Paizo owns, would increase significally the time to release that products. A bit of adaptation need to be done to fit the new casting process, but it is faster than create new ones.

Thank you for the quick response.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Summersnow wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
technarken wrote:
I mean, what proof do we have that anything but the prepaints even have ND Sculpts?
I've received half a dozen ND unpainted minis. From memory three were the same or similar to the prepainted variety, but three were not.
"Half a dozen" vs. the total number of mini's that were supposed to shipped, only 3 of which were different than the prepaints is still essentially "nothing but the prepaints were done"

Oh sure. I'm not giving them any special accolades.

It's just data - archon delivered SOME sculpts to Ninja Division other than the prepainted ones.

That might be interesting to people, it doesnt mean I think they've achieved anything particularly significant - it just means they did do some sculpting.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

What I meant was: Why are you guys assuming that Wiz Kids would use the ND sculpts?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
thecursor wrote:
What I meant was: Why are you guys assuming that Wiz Kids would use the ND sculpts?

I’m sure they won’t.


thecursor wrote:
What I meant was: Why are you guys assuming that Wiz Kids would use the ND sculpts?

Well, it was a question. Sara Marie says that they provide the same art at both companies, so it was not 3d files.

We know that Paizo owns the 3d files, so it was not crazy that Paizo send Wiz Kids a copy of this to speed up the work. This is legally posible, no legal restrictions of any kind.

Im glad they dont do that.

Sorry if I was misunderstood.


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Well in light of the toxic garbage from the ninja division owners posting in response to people asking questions. I would like to say thank you to the CSR here for doing an amazing job in maintaining professionalism when dealing with us as a community. I feel for paizo for having to be in business with people like this who treat their customer base with insults and condescending attitude.


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Starfinder Superscriber

Ninja Division is offering a big digital bundle of their games for print-and-play. Humble Bundle.

You can actually buy these digital products and receive them instantly! This is a brave New business strategy for ND.

Hope they use some of their earnings to get our minis out there.


That is... actually pretty smart. Minimal cost, potential for good returns... I hope this goes well. I hear a lot of the games themselves are actually fairly decent products, and Kickstarter has moved some pretty big numbers in the past. Here's hoping!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Sean Montgomery 43 wrote:
I still have to give Paizo credit as a company for the issue with the binding on so many of the core Starfinder books. They took responsibility and replaced them, a move I doubt most companies would be willing to make. A move that I bet caused them to take a hit on the profits from said book. That was huge in my eyes and showed how much they care about the quality of their your products and their relationships with us, the customers.

In the category of “credit where credit is due,” while we did our best to make things right on that for our customers (including our retailers and distributors), the printer also did their best to make things right with us. So while the binding problem certainly hurt our launch, the direct financial cost to us was thankfully not severe.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Back to the topic at hand...

While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.


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Vic Wertz wrote:

Back to the topic at hand...

While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.

Might I ask WHO the update came from and WHAT efforts you took to ensure it wasn't completely inaccurate, you know like the sales pitch they gave you to get you to let them run this kickstarter?

Ninja Division has a pretty bad track record, starting with Robotech tactics over 6 years ago.

So I would hope you are doing due diligence on backers behalf and not simply believing anything that comes out of there mouth without at least 2 independently verifiable sources?

I'd just like to know if this is a real, honest, good news report, or another one of the hollow, stall tactic promises we got on the Robotech tactics project from ND's partner there.

Given the timing, right when you launch a new crowd funding project which negative publicity could kill, I hope you'll forgive my suspicions.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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When I say I'm unable to be more specific, I mean that in a legally bound sense.


Unfortunate, but not surprising. Thank you for telling us what you could.

Paizo Employee

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Summersnow wrote:


Given the timing, right when you launch a new crowd funding project which negative publicity could kill, I hope you'll forgive my suspicions.

That project was at like 400% funding when Vic posted, so your suspicions in this instance are not based on facts. There was absolutely zero chance of any negative publicity killing the Kingmaker project because it had already funded several times over.

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