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Customer Service numbers went from five to two for a week or so, just as they headed into their busiest season alongside the release of PF2. I'm sure that had an impact on moderator participation. Thankfully, they're now back to four.
However, it seems to me that the people who want answers from Paizo probably mean from exec, not CS.
I suspect we received everything we're currently going to get a month or so back (basically paizo said they'd heard some encouraging news but weren't able to share what it was).
I cant imagine anything changing from "encouraging news" to actual results for a good six months.
Things are continuing to progress, and my confidence that Ninja Division will have positive and specific news to share with you in the near future is high.
Well thanks, Vic. I must admit I’ve given up any hope of actually seeing anything more from this project. I’ll be gobsmacked if they’re able to get back on track (based purely on the financial projections they released a while back).
Maybe a glimmer of hope. Although sadly my group just decided to move on from Starfinder, I’m hoping they may reconsider, down the track.
Chief Technical Officer
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No offence, but how many times are you going to reword the same phrase. At this point it seems like alot of hot air and bs...
Do I wish I could say more? Absolutely. But I can't. Once they are able to tell you what's going on, I think it will become fairly obvious why I can't. Until then, I have two choices—I can come in here and be non-specific about the progress I'm seeing, or I can say nothing. Given that you come in here every couple of days to criticize ND for taking the latter course, I'm assuming that you don't really want me to choose that option. And I know that there are people reading this thread who know that I wouldn't say there's been progress when there hasn't, so I guess the direct answer to your question is that I'll continue to tell you that things are progressing in a non-specific way until we are able to be specific, which I think will happen soon.
Note that I'm not saying your criticism is unfair. I really wish Ninja Division were more communicative with you all. But I also know that the only thing they can say is what I can say, which we all know isn't satisfying, and if they were to say that, they would get exactly the same kind of flak that I get when I come here and say it—only a lot more of it. So I understand why they choose to turtle up.
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So I understand why they choose to turtle up.
I understand the rest of your post (and personally, I appreciate the occasional crumbs of information, even if it's just a repeat of "still ongoing....").
However, I don't understand this bit at all. It's a relatively common trait among failed kickstarter creators (so there must be a reason people do it) but it seems so totally and obviously counter-productive to me. Presumably, the thought is "We'll wait until we have good news. Then they'll all see why we've been quiet!" which is just naive, in my view. They're not going to get any credit for pulling it off now and that's largely because of their radio silence up until this point.
I appreciate I'm probably not telling you anything you haven't heard before, but it's so frustrating to be treated the way they are treating their backers and it can't help but bleed over into my relationship with Paizo.
The fact they haven't learned such a basic lesson in "how to run a kickstarter" makes me sincerely doubt they've learned anything about "how to run a business".
If they started shipping next week, I'd be stunned and never buy anything from them again. If they started releasing what information they could and making what statements they could then I'd be much more likely to trust them when those plans come to fruition.
I don't know - probably no point posting this here, but if you happen to speak to them, would you mind metaphorically grabbing them by the shoulders for me and asking "What on Earth are you people doing?"
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I regularly think about the Ultimate Psionics kickstarter (which went significantly overdue). The creators continued with fortnightly updates, even if there was barely anything to say.
In contrast to this one, I basically stopped paying attention or even thinking about it. I wasn't worried because they put the effort into letting us know they were still working on it, despite obviously having run into significant, unforeseen problems.
Ultimately, I'd like all crowdfunded projects to go without a hitch, but I think anyone looking to run one should have a plan for "what we will do when it all goes to hell in a handbasket". The slick rollout of backer-goals, add-ons, preview blogs, etcetera etcetera is far less important to me than the after-funding communication. Sadly, it seems that the latter gets nowhere near the forethought that the hyping receives.
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Chief Technical Officer
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So I understand why they choose to turtle up.I understand the rest of your post (and personally, I appreciate the occasional crumbs of information, even if it's just a repeat of "still ongoing....").
However, I don't understand this bit at all.
I meant that I understand it as human nature, not as good business. If you know that when you walk into a certain room, you're going to get slapped in the face, it can be hard to work up the courage to go in that room.
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I guess I just think of it as they'll get slapped harder, depending on how long they wait. At this point, there's no getting around the negative response, so they may as well face the music and give themselves longer to demonstrate publicly that they've made changes.
I suppose I've never been there though, so maybe it can seem like "turtling up" is the prudent choice to make, even when it isn't going to actually deliver the best long-term outcome.
I do appreciate the fact this thread exists, anyhow. I trust what you and Erik report far more than what I'm going to hear on the kickstarter page and I think the CS team have been very successful in judiciously applying/bending the forum rules as required to find the appropriate level of moderation.
I meant that I understand it as human nature, not as good business. If you know that when you walk into a certain room, you're going to get slapped in the face, it can be hard to work up the courage to go in that room.So I understand why they choose to turtle up.I understand the rest of your post (and personally, I appreciate the occasional crumbs of information, even if it's just a repeat of "still ongoing....").
However, I don't understand this bit at all.
Its takes Courage and the will to do what right.
It takes Integrity to tell the truth.
It takes respect, for the people whom were willing to trust in you and put there hard earned money into your project.
It takes Honor to accept the responsibility for mistakes and an effort to fix them.
I've not seen any of this from Ninja Division, and very little of it from Paizo.
Even if the project does someday fulfill the actions of both parties will make it very hard for some people to want to give trust to either company, as well it should because you've both broken that trust and behaved dismissively, disrespectfully and uncommunicative during the entire process.
What the two of you did is criminal and I despise the fact that you both know that no matter what you do, how many times you lie, how long you drag this out and how much money you defrauded people of there will never be any criminal repercussions because the law is designed to protect criminals that pull scams like this and cheat people of there money and screw the victims.
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Honestly, I don't even want the miniatures anymore. Even if you said they'd be shipping tomorrow, I'd be nonplussed.
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If you know that when you walk into a certain room, you're going to get slapped in the face, it can be hard to work up the courage to go in that room.Courage.....its spineless is what that is...
I know what courage looks like...20 year active military now retired..
courage is getting up at 3am from a dead sleep to go do something totally risky to go save someone from the jaws of death. so telling us that they don't have the spine to get up in front of the people who backed them to give an update is just BS.and oh if i was criticizing ND you would know it. all i am doing is putting information up front and center for all to see how crappy of a job they are doing in BASIC COMMUNICATION on what is going on.
so here are your stats....
Last OFFICIAL UPDATE April 15 - 94 days ago
Last OFFICIAL POST - 72 Days ago
Ghost, while all true, the way this comes off is a general anger which someone may feel attacked when giving information. Paizo, especially Vic/Sara Marie, are pretty great at understanding our frustration. But people are people and my not always express their thoughts in a way that we/I will process them the way they intended.
Hoping much like you have here. Again, I 100% agree with every sentiment you have up there, and our Paizo peeps probably get it too.
The spine comment is an observation from one person saying that ND isn't handling it the way they would like. Bravery and Cowardice (same coin different sides) comes in all shapes and sizes.
From page 1 of this thread ND customers have come here warning just what type of business practices ND has. From day 1 of the kickstarter people like myself posted on the kickstarter exactly what ND would do.
I still backed. Because I knew there was a chance at the mini's and that was the path Paizo had chosen.
I warned others, and knew what I was getting into. If people didn't heed the warning based on Paizo's reassurances then that is on them, and Eric has posted up his thoughts and reasons in this tread.
Honestly feel like Paizo is doing everything they can for the situation, doesn't feel like it is alot, and I am still frustrated. But the CS peeps that support us are just doing their jobs at this point, and as communicative as they are on the Paizo side surprises me with how I've seen failing projects handled in the past.
ND was a sinking boat, disappointed Paizo went with them. But people wanted miniatures as quickly as possible and that was what Paizo deemed the best avenue at the time.
ND is claiming they are working on the problem, Paizo is saying they are seeing progress. At this point, even with ND communication failures, that is still more than I expected this far along...
tl;dr
Paizo is holding up their end on communicating what they can. I don't want to bite the hand that keeps coming back with information because of how pissed off I am at ND for failing to do so.
Agree with every one of your points though, just wish we could direct them at the people who deserve it and know they heard them.
Customer Service & Community Manager
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We do not have any updates to provide publicly at this time. Glenn is doing a great job of keeping me in the loop for anything internal that comes up, and the first possible moment we are able to provide any further information regarding the kickstarter, we will.
Here's hoping this turns out well.
But Paizo....
You do understand that ND/Sodapop who screwed over your customers are now teamed up with Archon, who 'bought' Prodos (owned by the same owner, basically just transfered assets) and screwed over many people on kickstarter as well?
Just saying.... I don't advise you guys saying you have faith in Archon/Prodos.
link for the KS update
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/updates
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Customer Service & Community Manager
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I know the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter stuff has been going on far longer than anyone anticipated, and it has certainly had some bumps along the way. Thank you for those of you who are still checking with the hope that a resolution will be found.
It’s been hard not to say anything specific for the last couple months as we’ve been working to facilitate a deal that would provide a full resolution for Kickstarter backers. Now that all companies involved have signed the contracts, we’re finally able to share the details.
Paizo has been working with Ninja Division and another company called Archon Studio. Archon Studio has extensive experience producing miniatures and has completed several successful crowdfunding campaigns. Archon Studio is going to be taking over the Starfinder Masterclass miniatures licence from Ninja Division. As part of the license, Archon Studio will be sending out miniatures for the backer rewards.
A few important notes:
• The miniatures will be plastic rather than resin.
• Archon Studio will be starting from scratch when it comes to backer shipments—backers who have already received resin minis from Ninja Division will receive those minis again from Archon Studio, this time in plastic.
• Archon Studio will be releasing 4 or 5 Kickstarter minis to retail each month along with 1 brand-new mini. Approximately every 6 months, they’ll ship the previous 6 months’ Kickstarter releases to backers for free. If you order any Starfinder Masterclass minis from them in between those shipments, they’ll include any backer rewards that are ready, for no additional charge.
• Questions about backer reward fulfillment, updates, and details of how shipping will work will be posted to the Kickstarter page.
You can read more about these in this blog post or in the Kickstarter update here.
This thread was staying open so that we could maintain a channel for updates and discussion. Now that we have an update, we’re going to close this thread so that this last post can point people to where they can go for more details and to ask questions. You are welcome to take discussion to the messageboard thread for the blog entry.