Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


Third-Party Starfinder Products

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David knott 242 wrote:

It would take 20/20 hindsight to realize that

Absolutely not.

As soon as ninja division was announced as the company doing this people tried to warn paizo about their business model and track record. This was not just foreseeable it was foreseen.

The first post in this thread is a warning about the company.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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stephen donohue wrote:
To me if paizo had any confidence in ninja division they wouldn’t be arranging for someone else to also publish the line. I don’t think it’s enough to distinguish them as one line is their painted line and the other is not.

I'll just point out that for years now, Pathfinder has had a prepainted plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles), a pre-primed plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles Deep Cuts), and an unpainted plastic line from Reaper (Pathfinder Bones). (Reaper also still has unpainted metal Pathfinder minis too, though they've shifted pretty hard to Bones and haven't introduced any new metals in a couple of years.) Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

Liberty's Edge

Vic Wertz wrote:
Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

Shame you guys just didn't wait instead of exposing your fan base to risk.


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J-Bone wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

Shame you guys just didn't wait instead of exposing your fan base to risk.

In that alternate universe we’d still be here, it’d just be a thread on why they didn’t go with someone else other than Wizkids to get Starfinder minis sooner.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
J-Bone wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

Shame you guys just didn't wait instead of exposing your fan base to risk.

In that alternate universe we’d still be here, it’d just be a thread on why they didn’t go with someone else other than Wizkids to get Starfinder minis sooner.

and I'd be $500 richer and playing Starfinder

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Not much of a benefit really.


J-Bone wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
J-Bone wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

Shame you guys just didn't wait instead of exposing your fan base to risk.

In that alternate universe we’d still be here, it’d just be a thread on why they didn’t go with someone else other than Wizkids to get Starfinder minis sooner.

and I'd be $500 richer and playing Starfinder

You can play Starfinder now.


I know I can, but the "I spent $400+ on miniatures for this game I still haven't got yet and likely never will" feeling ruins the whole experience. The guilt of being scammed is a powerful sensation that permeates every aspect of the Starfinder system, and it will continue to make it unplayable for me until this matter is properly resolved.


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technarken wrote:
I know I can, but the "I spent $400+ on miniatures for this game I still haven't got yet and likely never will" feeling ruins the whole experience. The guilt of being scammed is a powerful sensation that permeates every aspect of the Starfinder system, and it will continue to make it unplayable for me until this matter is properly resolved.

Will it?

(hopefully) When you finally get your minis will you play, get others to play? Or will you still refuse to do so?


Well. I am at last on the point of (maybe) selling all my SF stuff.... being OV in English it is difficult to sell in France...
And l know now that l won't come back... even if l get the minis (but let's be honest, that won't happen, stop hoping)...
But above all, all this stufff made me look anew to Sf... and I don't want to play space rats exploring the heart of a sun (what scientific nonsense... the heart of a sun...) anymore.... being a scientist l will rather play a game more science abiding... that is science fantasy and l don't know how it is superior to plain fantasy with for instance spelljammer vessels and plane travel...
For science fiction l will stick to other games l KS recently like Infinity, Valerian or maybe Tales from the loop...(which l will be buying once l sell my starfinder)...
That's a 500$ loss but it also opened my eyes...
Ps: l must look more closely to numenera also but l fear that it also suffer from the science Fantasy perspective (like SF l have impulsively bought too many numenera books)


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technarken on November 2, 2018 wrote:
The sad part is with Armory Starfinder was reaching the threshold of playability for me (I like having a lot of content), but any time I think about Starfinder now I associate it with getting ripped off, lied to, and strung along for half a year by people I gave hundreds of dollars to.

The fulfillment of this Kickstarter, whether through receiving all the miniatures from the $400 level, receiving a full refund, $200 in Paizo credit, or some similar level of recompense is all I need here. After that I have no problem hopping into the game. There are Starfinder games I'm eager to join once playing doesn't feel like a sleazebath


technarken wrote:
technarken on November 2, 2018 wrote:
The sad part is with Armory Starfinder was reaching the threshold of playability for me (I like having a lot of content), but any time I think about Starfinder now I associate it with getting ripped off, lied to, and strung along for half a year by people I gave hundreds of dollars to.
The fulfillment of this Kickstarter, whether through receiving all the miniatures from the $400 level, receiving a full refund, $200 in Paizo credit, or some similar level of recompense is all I need here. After that I have no problem hopping into the game. There are Starfinder games I'm eager to join once playing doesn't feel like a sleazebath

But what I'm asking is will that feeling go away once you've received your recompense?

Not buying any more Starfinder products I can understand, but not using the ones you already have/have access to? Not playing them isn't going to get your minis to you faster, and this feeling will most likely continue to fester.

You said there's games you're eager to join? Will they still be early and open by the time this is resolved? Or will you have missed out?


Sounds like there's a timetable where if this isn't resolved in time I will just miss out, huh?


If you refuse to play till then, then it seems so.


47 days since we last heard from Ninja Division

Liberty's Edge

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Even if I get the minis I probably won't play. This has left a stink on the game for me. Sadly a stink that's permeated all of Paizo. Good gaming to you who are able to overlook getting baited and ripped off. For me, the idea of playing just reminds me that I'm a victim in this mess.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Paizo used Ninja Division for something?! I thought they'd gone out of business with their previous failures.

I remember when they turned in the files for the Robotech Minis and it was discovered they were done in the wrong format for the manufacturer and had to be redone (and paid a second time by Palladium).

Add to that Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights and you can only wonder why anyone would do business with them.

Here's a link to a youtube video about this (it also has a link to the Idaho Statesman which has been following the whole thing for a few years).

forgot the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LzxYn2AQM


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

It would take 20/20 hindsight to realize that

Absolutely not.

As soon as ninja division was announced as the company doing this people tried to warn paizo about their business model and track record. This was not just foreseeable it was foreseen.

The first post in this thread is a warning about the company.

Thus my reference to Ninja Division's low standards.

My point is that, until very recently, Paizo had no alternative source for Starfinder minis. I took the first post in this thread as a warning not to help fund their kickstarter -- instead, I pre-ordered the minis from Paizo and didn't have to spend a single cent on them until they were ready to ship.

But seriously -- How would we have reacted if this new deal with Wizkids was the first thing we ever heard about miniatures for Starfinder?


49 days since we last heard from Ninja Division


Vic Wertz wrote:
stephen donohue wrote:
To me if paizo had any confidence in ninja division they wouldn’t be arranging for someone else to also publish the line. I don’t think it’s enough to distinguish them as one line is their painted line and the other is not.
I'll just point out that for years now, Pathfinder has had a prepainted plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles), a pre-primed plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles Deep Cuts), and an unpainted plastic line from Reaper (Pathfinder Bones). (Reaper also still has unpainted metal Pathfinder minis too, though they've shifted pretty hard to Bones and haven't introduced any new metals in a couple of years.) Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

This is true.

But would it not also be true that you could have forseen that Wizkids would eventually have enough time to do a starfinder mini line.

Given the warnings given about ND's lack of performance do you think it might have made a difference and saved people money if they had known there was a good chance that eventually there'd be a Wizkids line?

Especially if they had known it come out before the ND line?

Also, you keep mentioning progress?

How do you expect people to believe that when ND has shown no progress, refuses to engage backers, won't even clarify what happened to the minis Archon supposedly was set to destroy?

The only progress I see is ND & Paizo getting one month closer to the statute of limitations on a fraud lawsuit or ND's license running out giving them an excuse to not finish and a way out.

That's the excuse used on the Robotech kickstarter ND participated in (sabotaged) after years of lies about "progress".

What is Paizo's priority here? Protecting Backers and seeing they get the rewards or refunds they deserve or Protecting Paizo's bottom line at the expense of the backers?


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Summersnow wrote:
The only progress I see is ND & Paizo getting one month closer to the statute of limitations on a fraud lawsuit or ND's license running out giving them an excuse to not finish and a way out.

A bit of fearmongering there?

To my skim knowledge fraud statute of limitations is measured in years, usually tied to discovery (but of course many variables there). But also fraud concerns intentional attempts to scam, not simply incompetence.


While I wholeheartedly agree with the general incompetence problem, I would point out that using funds from this kickstarter to pay for debts incurred on other projects does constitute fraud.


kadance wrote:
While I wholeheartedly agree with the general incompetence problem, I would point out that using funds from this kickstarter to pay for debts incurred on other projects does constitute fraud.

Only if, again, ND had the KS solely to raise money for the other projects and had no intention to follow through in this. But since they have delivered minis to some backers, however few, that isn't the case.


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If you tell investors you're raising money for a specific goal and use part of the invested money for things not related to that goal, you are committing fraud.

The FTC started prosecuting cases like this four years ago (note that Chevalier did spend some of the money on the boardgame in question).

Your intentions when you raise the money don't enter into it, legally speaking, only what you do with the money. I think there's a chance ND intended to use the money to execute the project, but they seemingly didn't end up doing that. They seem to have spent at least some of it in ways outside the purview of the kickstarter. If so, this means they lied to their investors, which is to say, committed fraud.


kadance wrote:
If you tell investors you're raising money for a specific goal and use part of the invested money for things not related to that goal, you are committing fraud.
Underhanded yes, but I'm not sure on the legal case of fraud.
Quote:
The FTC started prosecuting cases like this four years ago (note that Chevalier did spend some of the money on the boardgame in question).
From that same article the case was brought forth due to the Creator in question cancelling the project after it was successfully funded, promising refunds, and then not refunding the backers aka took the money and ran (or tried to).
Quote:
[Your intentions when you raise the money don't enter into it, legally speaking, only what you do with the money.
It does actually, as a whole host of overfunded Kickstarters can attest to.
Quote:
I think there's a chance ND intended to use the money to execute the project, but they seemingly didn't end up doing that. They seem to have spent at least some of it in ways outside the purview of the kickstarter. If so, this means they lied to their investors, which is to say, committed fraud.

Not necessarily, especially since there's not a mandated timeframe for delivery of the kickstarted materials.


(it get's grumpy when I try to edit)

With the way crowdfundung attempts with a pay what you want rather than a direct ordering of products, which on good days leads to overfunding, there's not a direct "this has to be spent on this, that has to be spent on that" way of how the investments are spent, and thus legal cases for Fraud are nebulous unless outright deceptive practices can be proven, like in the article you linked with the Creator promising refunds and then not delivering them.

So until it could proven that ND intentionally engaged in deceptive and/or malicious practices and wasn't just incompetent a case for fraud is ehhh...

Note: I am not a lawyer and merely going off what I'm remembering from various articles concerning Kickstarter cases.


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To the Paizo folks, has there been any conversation with ND by your team in recent weeks (say last 4 for good measure) with respect to communication to backers.
I know some people believe that when there is nothing new to share, why bother communicating but my experience is this is poor customer service.
Thanks in advance.


51 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.

Coming up on 2 months of them going ghost...but it's cool they seem to have time to drop in in the other kick starter and answers posts...guess we don't count to be answered.


It seems like ND is doing some advance on other KS. It seems that Rail Raiders Infinite has been delivery (not full, i think...)

Refering SF vs Archon situation (Angry Backer question, then, ND response...):

Carlos DSuperbacker wrote:

Talking about interesting questions that won't be answered straight. Can you see the name of the contact for the projects Starfinder (Ninja Division) and Chronicle X (Archon). As we know ND owe thousands of USD to Archon ...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/archonstudio/chronicle-x-by-archon-stu dio/creator_bio

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/creator_bio

I wonder thus.

Why is the same contact on both projects ?

What happened to the miniatures that were in Archon's possession and that were gonna get destroyed if payment was not received ?

Ultimately, I would like to know what the heck is going on ?

Soda Pop MiniaturesCreadorSuperbacker wrote:

Not that you put credibility in my responses, but I am not lying to you:

Starfinder miniatures (resins) were to be manufactured by Archon - who had a great process and speed and cost to get the work done.

We have declared that we hold a debt to Archon and a few other manufacturers as our money problems came to a head. Again... nothing hidden here.

What is the hidden link here? We have production partners all over the globe. Archon has made no secret of this. But it's a manufacturing contract. And we had a lot of work moving there from Relic Knights and Starfinder - again... nothing hidden, we were trying out new processes and partners - and it looked good for a few of our plans.

Archon has a stock of miniatures that we can option to purchase when we move to pay them back for RK starter miniatures to get those into delivery *(one of our upcoming goals) Our standing with Archon is now back in line, we are working together on solutions.

Now you know what the heck is going on.

SuperDungeonExplorer KS link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explor e-legends/comments

Rail Raiders Infinite KS link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/rail-raiders-infinit e/comments

So, ND is radio silence for us, we are the last on the queue...


54 days since we last heard from Ninja Division


56 days since we last heard from Ninja Division


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

(it get's grumpy when I try to edit)

So until it could proven that ND intentionally engaged in deceptive and/or malicious practices and wasn't just incompetent a case for fraud is ehhh...

Note: I am not a lawyer and merely going off what I'm remembering from various articles concerning Kickstarter cases.

It would most likely come down to what they knew when and if money from this KS was spent elsewhere.

Kickstarter does have a TOS agreement creators and backers are bound by, a form of contract between them, which KS has no part of btw, that's how they avoid any legal complications from there failures.

While refunds for failed projects were removed long ago, though many people fail to realize that and keep quoting the old ToS that no longer applies I believe the requirement that funding be for the project and used only on the project, not other projects.

If the used money for other projects, or knew they would use money for other projects (the most likely scenario) in a "pyramid scheme" even intending to use profits from old projects to finish this one, that would put them in violation of the ToS, i.e. the contract between backers and creators and since they agreed to abide by the ToS when using the site that could be fraud.


Summersnow wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

(it get's grumpy when I try to edit)

So until it could proven that ND intentionally engaged in deceptive and/or malicious practices and wasn't just incompetent a case for fraud is ehhh...

Note: I am not a lawyer and merely going off what I'm remembering from various articles concerning Kickstarter cases.

It would most likely come down to what they knew when and if money from this KS was spent elsewhere.

Kickstarter does have a TOS agreement creators and backers are bound by, a form of contract between them, which KS has no part of btw, that's how they avoid any legal complications from there failures.

While refunds for failed projects were removed long ago, though many people fail to realize that and keep quoting the old ToS that no longer applies I believe the requirement that funding be for the project and used only on the project, not other projects.

If the used money for other projects, or knew they would use money for other projects (the most likely scenario) in a "pyramid scheme" even intending to use profits from old projects to finish this one, that would put them in violation of the ToS, i.e. the contract between backers and creators and since they agreed to abide by the ToS when using the site that could be fraud.

Good points. Also, the question of fraud is going to be governed primarily by federal and state law and not the Kickstarter TOS. In other words, the TOS can't be used as indemnity to fraud.

Ultimately, it is up to the state AGs to decide whether to pursue a fraud case. This is probably fairly small potatoes to them.


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technarken wrote:
Well, we're coming up on another month of absolute radio silence from our 'friends' at ND.

Yeah, ND's "updates" come like clockwork that can be pretty much accurately predicted at this point.

I reported them to Kickstarter for fraud, and pointed out that they have been routinely giving fake, gratuitous updates every couple of months to keep the charade going, but they rejected my claim and said that ND wasn't a fraudulent company *shrugs* take from that what you will. At this point, backing ND is pretty much complicity. I know Paizo means well and wants to help push them into finishing the project, but really ND is just looking for a cash cow to pay off this debt by incurring another one. It's like paying for a credit card with another credit card, but with a worse APR.


Sabirwolf wrote:
technarken wrote:
Well, we're coming up on another month of absolute radio silence from our 'friends' at ND.

Yeah, ND's "updates" come like clockwork that can be pretty much accurately predicted at this point.

I reported them to Kickstarter for fraud, and pointed out that they have been routinely giving fake, gratuitous updates every couple of months to keep the charade going, but they rejected my claim and said that ND wasn't a fraudulent company *shrugs* take from that what you will. At this point, backing ND is pretty much complicity. I know Paizo means well and wants to help push them into finishing the project, but really ND is just looking for a cash cow to pay off this debt by incurring another one. It's like paying for a credit card with another credit card, but with a worse APR.

Without knowing what's going on, it seems like ND's play is to leverage what intellectual property they have and sell as much stuff as possible, which I assume is to make them look profitable to an investor. The problem is that it doesn't seem like they have that much intellectual property to leverage, since they were mostly a "middle man." And they owe a lot of money, although it's not "owed" in the same sense as debt, since it was through Kickstarter.


59 days since we last heard from Ninja Division


Hey, they'll apparently be at Gen Con, and have shelled out just shy of 8k to get booth space. Hopefully they will be more talkative when they can't avoid contact with their backers?


technarken wrote:
Hey, they'll apparently be at Gen Con, and have shelled out just shy of 8k to get booth space. Hopefully they will be more talkative when they can't avoid contact with their backers?

I see this ending...poorly


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technarken wrote:
Hey, they'll apparently be at Gen Con, and have shelled out just shy of 8k to get booth space. Hopefully they will be more talkative when they can't avoid contact with their backers?

Asking security to remove you would probably be as talkative as they are willing to get.

Though they will most likely have some nice flyers and a press release about Starfinder Battles you can look at.

There's nothing magical about a con setting that would suddenly make them reverse there course of silence that's caused so much frustration with people and come clean.


61 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.....loving your partner on this deal paizo..."thumb down"


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Summersnow wrote:
Though they will most likely have some nice flyers and a press release about Starfinder Battles you can look at.

Why would Ninja Division advertise Starfinder Battles?

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I went to the ND booth last year. The booth minders were very nice and offered to sell me the pre-painted minis of the ones I was suppose to get from the Kickstarter. When I asked how come they had all of the pre-painted ones and why I couldn't get the ones I backed they said they didn't know but directed me to the "boss" who was wearing a ND polo. He acted very nervous and hemmed and hawed and finally when I started to ask him very pointed questions he actually excused himself and basically fled the booth! I am not kidding or exaggerating in the least. If I hadn't been so angry it would have been comical.

Liberty's Edge

I confronted them last year at GenCon too. They just filled me with promises and platitudes. Now I'm glad I'm skipping GenCon this year as I reckon I'd be a lot less easily placated.


64 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.


66 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.


68 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.


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Ghost725 wrote:
68 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.

ND isn't going to post here...

So if your going to do a countdown hows about you include one for a meaningful Paizo response?

Dataphiles

Ninja Division seems to be focusing on Super Dungeon Explorers and Relic Knights again.... no idea when they'll get to Starfinder stuff, but doesn't seem like we're the priority.

instead, they're focusing on..... I have no idea. the big mistake project it seems https://ninjadivision.com/blogs/news/masterclass-success


Summersnow wrote:
Ghost725 wrote:
68 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.

ND isn't going to post here...

So if your going to do a countdown hows about you include one for a meaningful Paizo response?

Well I figured paizo should know how crappy of a job thier partner is doing under the brand name of starfinder...plus we could start a betting pool and see if they break how long they went dark last time...


Ghost725 wrote:
Summersnow wrote:
Ghost725 wrote:
68 days since we last heard from Ninja Division.

ND isn't going to post here...

So if your going to do a countdown hows about you include one for a meaningful Paizo response?

Well I figured paizo should know how crappy of a job thier partner is doing under the brand name of starfinder...plus we could start a betting pool and see if they break how long they went dark last time...

It has been sometime since Paizo added anything of value to this thread. I know I posted a direct question to them over two weeks ago and though I'm not sure that I'll get a response, I'm a little surprised they've not been here at all.

Must be due to Pathfinder 2.0 and/or GenCon.
Of course it's possible that folks are on vacation.

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