There might be another solution:
Let me see: check, check, check. Hoping that Mexico will pay for it someday is not enough.
That said, thank you Erik for finally after several years posting in this thread and taking this seriously. And yes, you made me lose about 200$ with your vouching for ND. Still, the Paizo/ND relationship reminds me of couples, where the alcoholic husband promisses not to ever drink again.
Customer Service has the power to communicate with customers more than once every 2 years. To spend 10 minutes per year to make a post with content. Not just "hold the line" and "nothing to say" for 2 years. And also to communicate to Erik Mona that he should either confirm or take back the 2 year old statement that everything is fine with ND. His silence has done too much damage to Paizo's reputation already. And many customers/influencers are in the process to turn their backs on Paizo and its products.
How am I supposed to spread enthusiasm for Starfinder and 2nd edition Pathfinder in my store and town when Erik's word lured me and hundreds of customers into this shady kickstarter and he doesn't care enough to say a single word in 2 years.
BTW Archon is renamed Prodos, who had to hide their true name, after they sold AvP Miniature Game 2nd edition in retail before delivering AvP 1st edition to kickstarter backers. Noone would back a Prodos kickstarter. Seems the trick worked and under the cover name they made 2 kickstarters for the LOAD boardgame and have recovered a bit:
But then again: Who still remembers, how CMON founder David Doust burned customer money with a suspicous bancruptcy of his former New Wave Miniature Company.
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
As GAMA ends this Friday, how long do you feel it is reasonable to wait for a post before I ask again?
When something is really important to Eric Mona, like when Paizo customer's got betrayed or Paizo`s good reputation is at stake, he invests 5 minutes every 2 years to make a post ... or every 3 years, we will see.
This thread started 27th September 2017.
If you want a list of companies that, like ND, just grab a million dollars and then do nothing, that list is looooong.
Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?ND said yes, but everyone in the business including customers knew: No, not for a while.
What is their turnaround time?
What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?
The beginning of this thread is proof that everyone in the business except Paizo CEO was aware of ND's situation. Even I was aware of ND being untrustworthy and only backed ther kickstarter because of Paizo's guarantee.
TL;DR: ND was a no to those questions at the time, and everyone knew and warned.
Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures? What is their turnaround time? What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?
How about Ninja Division ;)As said, even I could collect 1 Mio dollar and then deliver nothing.
Paizo vouched with their reputation for this kickstarter, the only reason I took part. Now they have to face the consequences for that.
And I wouldn't count Paizo's "Hi still can't say anything but stay calm" as "communication".
Just to be clear:
And if the only miniature companies in the world are Reaper, WizKids and Ninja Division, who of those 3 makes all the Games Workshop miniatures? Or Privateer's? Or Infinity's? Or Malifaux's? Or Kromlech's? Or Greebo's? Or...
Some of my questions:
We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the timeframe they have promised.
Just to compare: A successfull kickstarter for a 16+ miniature Bloodbowl team usually gets arouns 20.000 $. So ND got the money equivalent for 23 Bloodbowl teams, not including the money from the Game On Tabletop fundraiser (BTW how much was that?):https://www.gameontabletop.com/crowdfunding-91.html
Sara Marie wrote:
Our understanding is that the manufacturing of these groups were not all done at the same factory and they were on different production and distribution cycles, and that minis we received for retail, were not from the same production process as the minis intended for kickstarter fulfillment, which is why these ones are on sale on our site while some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards.
1.) So you have no proof that any of the kickstarter money collected in your name went into the kickstarter?2.) Don't you think that "some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards" is an inappropriate understatement, when the majority have not received anything and any fullfillment is at best unconfirmed and even then far from complete?
I assume nobody here has a problem with delays in delivery, but we don't like scams. And if indeed no (or less than 10%) money collected was used for fullfilling the kickstarter, even liberal interpretation of kickstarter ToS might see no "intention to fullfill the kickstarter obligations". Paizo can ask ND how many of the 2294 backers received anything or everything.
Some highlights: ND made 5 kickstarters and has yet to complete one of them. ND got sued for not fullfilling a 2015 kickstarter (6000 backers, 1.29 Mio $), so there are ways. They had to admit that they are out of money since 2017 and are trying to sell the company. So they were long out of money before starting this kickstarter. No wonder they were so eager to do this kickstarter. Intersting to know if Paizo has been aware of this situation.
I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollar and then don't deliver anything, can be hold liable and sued for that. The kickstarter page lists ND and Paizo as the responsible companies till today. We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them. That's what the Better Business Bureau suggests. Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.
I understand this may be the best way for the Kickstarter to get funded, ...
The kickstarter IS funded with almost half a million dollars, ND just stole the money to finance other things, while pretending that the money went to Paizo.
I don't think ND is competent enough to even find a lawyer on their own.
... or pay him ;)
Also: Some people filed a complain at the Better Business Bureau (whatever that is exactly). According to a comment on kickstarter, they answered the following:
Check the "About Us" part of the kickstarter page:
@GM Rednal: Can we agree that ND produced less miniatures than already paid for by backers (457.539 $ no less, plus late pledges plus gameontabletop pledges). And most of them to companies that paid after backers paid?
I am quite certain there are more than just 3 miniature companies in the industry, but thanks for the link: It explains Paizo's view on this 3-4 months ago.
It doesn't explain though, why Paizo knows the kickstarter they vouched for is screwed up for 4 months and then left it at that, not even speaking to ND about progress. Only this thread has given them the idea that talking to ND might be in order.
So Ninja Division is a company with a widely known bad reputation and a history of almost no kickstarter fullfillment.
Then I don't understand why Paizo chose them and even vouched for them? Was first choice Ponzi Ltd. not answering emails? Was Google blocked for work?
As said, I wouldn't have backed this with 200 $ if not for the reputation of Paizo vouching for this kickstarter.
Thanks for starting to show interest in the kickstarter, you vouched for with your good name. I wouldn't have backed it with about 200$, if not for your guarantee, knowing the history of Ninja Division. So there will be a meeting sometime in the future, where you talk. That's ... well ... something I guess.