Initiate of Flame

Kroothawk's page

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And how did a small company like ND lose several MILLION dollars in 2-3 years without producing almost anything? Was it drugs?

And why should anyone invest money into a business that loses several million dollars without producing anything. He would get more by giving 50,000 $ to Greebo.

I think there is no solution with ND as a company, when the owners obviously can't deal with money. Maybe they can be hired as sculptors or something, where they just have to collect their paycheck AFTER delivering a product. As long as it doesn't require handeling business matters.

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There might be another solution:
Kickstarter itself has a "Trust and Safety Team" that is starting to suspend extemely bad kickstarters, here an example:



This message from Kickstarter's Trust and Safety Team. We're writing to let you know that a project you recently backed, Papillion (Suspended), has been suspended. We also want to assure you that your $1.00 pledge has been canceled. To protect our community, we may suspend projects when they demonstrate one or more of the following:

- Outstanding fulfillment issues related to a previously successful crowdfunding campaign
- Running multiple, simultaneous projects
- Failure or unwillingness to clearly communicate with backers

As a result, all backers will be refunded. No further action is required on your part.

We take the integrity of the Kickstarter system very seriously. We only suspend projects when we find strong evidence that they are misrepresenting themselves or otherwise violating the letter or spirit of Kickstarter's rules. As a policy, we do not offer comment on project suspensions beyond what is stated in this message.

We know this isn't ideal. But we do sincerely hope to see you again soon, backing one or more of the amazing projects that do cross the finish line, without a hitch, each and every day.

Here's to next time,
Kickstarter Trust and Safety

Let me see: check, check, check. Hoping that Mexico will pay for it someday is not enough.

That said, thank you Erik for finally after several years posting in this thread and taking this seriously. And yes, you made me lose about 200$ with your vouching for ND. Still, the Paizo/ND relationship reminds me of couples, where the alcoholic husband promisses not to ever drink again.

Customer Service has the power to communicate with customers more than once every 2 years. To spend 10 minutes per year to make a post with content. Not just "hold the line" and "nothing to say" for 2 years. And also to communicate to Erik Mona that he should either confirm or take back the 2 year old statement that everything is fine with ND. His silence has done too much damage to Paizo's reputation already. And many customers/influencers are in the process to turn their backs on Paizo and its products.

How am I supposed to spread enthusiasm for Starfinder and 2nd edition Pathfinder in my store and town when Erik's word lured me and hundreds of customers into this shady kickstarter and he doesn't care enough to say a single word in 2 years.

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Finally customer service found time to deal with this topic, even if it's only to delete posts by customers.

BTW Archon is renamed Prodos, who had to hide their true name, after they sold AvP Miniature Game 2nd edition in retail before delivering AvP 1st edition to kickstarter backers. Noone would back a Prodos kickstarter. Seems the trick worked and under the cover name they made 2 kickstarters for the LOAD boardgame and have recovered a bit: scription

But then again: Who still remembers, how CMON founder David Doust burned customer money with a suspicous bancruptcy of his former New Wave Miniature Company.

Silas Stadatilas wrote:
As GAMA ends this Friday, how long do you feel it is reasonable to wait for a post before I ask again?

When something is really important to Eric Mona, like when Paizo customer's got betrayed or Paizo`s good reputation is at stake, he invests 5 minutes every 2 years to make a post ... or every 3 years, we will see.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Summersnow wrote:

This was not exactly an unforeseen occurrence.

This is not the first time they used kickstarter (which is supposed to fund a project) as a general investment in their overall company and failed to compete a project because of it. Not heeding the people raising red flags about the company and assuring the fans that everything would be fine is one of the larger points of contention here.


This thread started 27th September 2017.
Same day, someone posted a strong warning that he wouldn't back this because ND had already 2 unfulfilled kickstarters.
Next day Eric Mona said Paizo is aware of that but still has confidence.
All in this thread on page 1. Hard to miss.
Kickstarter ended 18th October 2017.

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Summersnow wrote:

I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.

Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.


Next question?

If you want a list of companies that, like ND, just grab a million dollars and then do nothing, that list is looooong.

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Also: ND is not the manufacturer, Archon is. ND seems to only have made the deal and the sculpts. And claiming that there are no sculptors in the world capable of doing SciFi miniatures after existing artwork is ridiculous.

You can go on claiming that the world has only 3 companies capable of doing scifi miniatures (and including ND in that list of "large" companies).

Everyone else knows this is so wrong that it is not even worth discussing.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
How about Ninja Division ;)
Stop deflecting. ND was a yes to those questions at the time. Paizo was wrong about it. Hopefully they can recover something out of it all.

Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures?

ND said yes, but everyone in the business including customers knew: No, not for a while.

What is their turnaround time?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so maybe never. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.

What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?
Several undelivered kickstarters pending, so no opening at all. ND denied that, but everyone in the business including customers knew that.

The beginning of this thread is proof that everyone in the business except Paizo CEO was aware of ND's situation. Even I was aware of ND being untrustworthy and only backed ther kickstarter because of Paizo's guarantee.

TL;DR: ND was a no to those questions at the time, and everyone knew and warned.

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TOZ wrote:
Are they able to do sci-fantasy miniatures? What is their turnaround time? What was their product schedule like and did they have openings?

How about Ninja Division ;)

As said, even I could collect 1 Mio dollar and then deliver nothing.

Paizo vouched with their reputation for this kickstarter, the only reason I took part. Now they have to face the consequences for that.

And I wouldn't count Paizo's "Hi still can't say anything but stay calm" as "communication".

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Just to be clear:
Until today, the official kickstarter page tures?lang=de
lists Paizo as the main responsible agent of this project, as evidenced in the "About Us" section. So as long as Paizo is content with that presentation (and having profited by it through licence payments), I am content with calling them responsible.

And if the only miniature companies in the world are Reaper, WizKids and Ninja Division, who of those 3 makes all the Games Workshop miniatures? Or Privateer's? Or Infinity's? Or Malifaux's? Or Kromlech's? Or Greebo's? Or...
Heck, for 1.3 Mio dollars even I could produce ... nothing at all because it all went into my salary.

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Some of my questions:
1.) How much money of the 450.000+ $ raised did they actually use for this kickstarter fullfillment? None? Some?
2.) Where did the money actually go?
3.) Will ND ever again communicate with kickstarter backers?
4.) What are the chances that they fullfill the kickstarter obligations?
5.) How does Paizo see its responsibility/liability in the kickstarter, that officially was made mainly by them (see current "About Us" section of kickstarter page)?
6.) Does Eric Mona still stand to his post here:

We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the timeframe they have promised.

Just to compare: A successfull kickstarter for a 16+ miniature Bloodbowl team usually gets arouns 20.000 $. So ND got the money equivalent for 23 Bloodbowl teams, not including the money from the Game On Tabletop fundraiser (BTW how much was that?):

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Sara Marie wrote:
Our understanding is that the manufacturing of these groups were not all done at the same factory and they were on different production and distribution cycles, and that minis we received for retail, were not from the same production process as the minis intended for kickstarter fulfillment, which is why these ones are on sale on our site while some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards.

1.) So you have no proof that any of the kickstarter money collected in your name went into the kickstarter?

2.) Don't you think that "some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards" is an inappropriate understatement, when the majority have not received anything and any fullfillment is at best unconfirmed and even then far from complete?

I assume nobody here has a problem with delays in delivery, but we don't like scams. And if indeed no (or less than 10%) money collected was used for fullfilling the kickstarter, even liberal interpretation of kickstarter ToS might see no "intention to fullfill the kickstarter obligations". Paizo can ask ND how many of the 2294 backers received anything or everything.

Just found this relevant thread on "Beasts of War": money-for-super-dungeon-explore-legends/

Some highlights: ND made 5 kickstarters and has yet to complete one of them. ND got sued for not fullfilling a 2015 kickstarter (6000 backers, 1.29 Mio $), so there are ways. They had to admit that they are out of money since 2017 and are trying to sell the company. So they were long out of money before starting this kickstarter. No wonder they were so eager to do this kickstarter. Intersting to know if Paizo has been aware of this situation.

Another relevant thread: a-division-issue
Highlight: Archon Studio/Prodos stopped manufacturing for ND in November because of non-payments. Same Prodos that didn't fullfil AvP kickstarter, so a shady company themselves. Maybe someone finds newer Archon statements.

I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollar and then don't deliver anything, can be hold liable and sued for that. The kickstarter page lists ND and Paizo as the responsible companies till today. We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them. That's what the Better Business Bureau suggests. Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.

Burro-crat wrote:
I understand this may be the best way for the Kickstarter to get funded, ...

The kickstarter IS funded with almost half a million dollars, ND just stole the money to finance other things, while pretending that the money went to Paizo.

technarken wrote:
I don't think ND is competent enough to even find a lawyer on their own.

... or pay him ;)

Also: Some people filed a complain at the Better Business Bureau (whatever that is exactly). According to a comment on kickstarter, they answered the following:


This message is in regard to your complaint submitted on 12/31/2018 against Ninja Division Publishing LLC. Your complaint was assigned ID xxxxxxx.

BBB is a non-profit, non-governmental organization which promotes business self-regulation. Although BBB encourages a company to respond to a complaint we bring to its attention, we can not require it to do so.

BBB contacted the above referenced company on multiple occasions regarding your complaint. To date, we have not received a reply; therefore, BBB is obligated to close your complaint as a "no response," which will be reported to the public for the next three years.

If the company responded to you directly due to BBB intervention, we ask that you notify us immediately so we may record an accurate disposition of your case. In the event your complaint remains unaddressed, we suggest you consider writing to the State Attorney General's Office or the Department of Consumer Protection, We also suggest you consider pursuing legal means.

BBB regrets that we were unable to assist you further and wishes you the best in your future efforts in resolving this matter.

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Also bad:

Check the "About Us" part of the kickstarter page:
Paizo is (still) listed as responsible for the kickstarter, as the first company listed, filling 75% of the "About Us" section, with ND coming stealthily behind. So whoever created the page, wanted everyone to believe that this is mainly a Paizo project with the help of ND. That's the reason why I backed it inspite of ND's reputation. tures?lang=de

@GM Rednal: Can we agree that ND produced less miniatures than already paid for by backers (457.539 $ no less, plus late pledges plus gameontabletop pledges). And most of them to companies that paid after backers paid?

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Even worse:
At this very moment, the Paizo shop is selling ND Starfinder miniatures (in stock), that were financed by us the kickstarter backers while we don't get anything. Not even a discount on the miniatures we already paid for. So Paizo is basically making money with other people's property. And for several months, they are aware that the people who paid for these miniatures didn't get them. Maybe they should reconsider selling the miniatures ND already sold to us.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Apparently both other mini studios were busy or had competing product lines.

ooo found it

I am quite certain there are more than just 3 miniature companies in the industry, but thanks for the link: It explains Paizo's view on this 3-4 months ago.

It doesn't explain though, why Paizo knows the kickstarter they vouched for is screwed up for 4 months and then left it at that, not even speaking to ND about progress. Only this thread has given them the idea that talking to ND might be in order.

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So Ninja Division is a company with a widely known bad reputation and a history of almost no kickstarter fullfillment.

Then I don't understand why Paizo chose them and even vouched for them? Was first choice Ponzi Ltd. not answering emails? Was Google blocked for work?

As said, I wouldn't have backed this with 200 $ if not for the reputation of Paizo vouching for this kickstarter.

Guess the only hope is that ND makes more fraudulent ponzi-scheme-kickstarters to finance previous ones. Works for Mantic for years.

So the result of talking to Ninja Division is ... that you plan to talk again? And that you'd like them to talk to their backers again? That's ... something I guess.

If Ninja Division destroys the reputation of Paizo, please consider such harsh measures like ... an email or a telephone call?

Thanks for starting to show interest in the kickstarter, you vouched for with your good name. I wouldn't have backed it with about 200$, if not for your guarantee, knowing the history of Ninja Division. So there will be a meeting sometime in the future, where you talk. That's ... well ... something I guess.