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Nonetheless, I must admit that this entire debacle is the reason I will wait until the product is released before I buy the Kingmaker stuff.
Back to the topic at hand...
While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.
If you had to guess, would you say within a month? Within a quarter?
At their present rate, likely within a decade
Licensing Manager
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If you had to guess, would you say within a month? Within a quarter?Back to the topic at hand...
While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.
We're really unable to say, both for legal reasons as Vic already mentioned, and because it's an unpredictable process.
When we say that we're doing everything we can to support Ninja Division and encourage them to fulfill their obligations to their Kickstarter backers, we do actually mean it. We just can't talk about it.
Thank you.
We're really unable to say, both for legal reasons as Vic already mentioned, and because it's an unpredictable process.
When we say that we're doing everything we can to support Ninja Division and encourage them to fulfill their obligations to their Kickstarter backers, we do actually mean it. We just can't talk about it.
Yes, thank you.
"ND's recent post stated that the initial aim was reduce debt with US based Manufacturers."
Right now they are selling digital products to raise money to repay manufacturers for previous masterclass miniatures so those companies will print more masterclass figures and then those sales will help them work on their kickstarter obligations or I could just draw the ponzi scheme like this..
digital products -> masterclass -> starfinder -> rail raiders -> WOTF miniatures -> SDE
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This is making me worried about my Kingmaker all in backing. The company making kingmaker is Paizo right? As long as its Paizo and Legendary games offering the kingdom building rules and tools I am ok with it. Just making sure its not a 3rd party taking in the full responsibility for it like the mini's with this.
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Also, the Kingmaker thing is a book, which Paizo and Legendary Games are very good at making, while this is a miniatures project, which Ninja Division is very bad at making.
I was under the impression Ninja Division doesn't actually make miniatures.
Ninja Divisions runs Kickstarters, all the way back to Robotech tactics, then rely on other people to actually make the miniatures, etc.
Form what I've seen of there history, again back to Robotech tactics is Ninja Division is really good at running a kickstarter and finding a patsy to give them an IP to ruin (Robotech, starfinder...) and lying through there teeth to get the patsy to agree but really bad at
#1 - Correctly estimating the cost of the product, manufacture & shipping.
#2 - Finding someone who is willing to manufacture the pieces at a loss because of #1.
#3 - Telling the backers the truth, because of #1 & #2
#4 - Post Campaign communication with backers, because of #3.
#5 - Taking responsibility for there actions and making things right with backers.
Well, we're coming up on another month of absolute radio silence from our 'friends' at ND.
Sooooo, any news?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Sooooo, any news?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Rickrolls? Really?
Doesn't make it any less infuriating, but accuracy is important. They burned our money with Paizo's help and stalled out 1 year ago, not 2. Paizo is not involved (to my knowledge at least) with their other Ponzis
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We are now more than two years out from the estimated delivery date for this Kickstarter.
No, we're not. It hasn't even been two years since the Kickstarter launched, let alone since the projected delivery date. The project is just over one year late.
Nice clause for future business dealings might be something to the effect of "If you go radio silent too long with your customers about a project we're involved in, any NDA between us is voided"
Nice clause for future business dealings might be something to the effect of "If you go radio silent too long with your customers about a project we're involved in, any NDA between us is voided"
Paizo probably want to protect certain information.
Leaving the context of THIS project aside (I’d definitely like a transparent, warts-and-all, explanation of what went wrong here). It’s pretty clear why they wouldn’t have a clause like that - the licensee goes dark, the NDA is voided, the licensee is then free to release any info Paizo have shared about subscription numbers, future projects, past sales, etcetera...
Plus the inclusion of clauses like that is unlikely to win many licensees in the first place and they are an essential part of paizo’s business model.
As I say - transparency would definitely be better than reassurances at this stage - Ninja Division burnt through the reassurances stage months ago when we now know they had no ability to actually do what they repeatedly said they were doing. NDAs are a fact of life though (and are often two-way) no matter what happens here, they’re not going to go away. Transparency is only going to happen to the extent that all of Paizo, ND and any related parties agree.
All I can tell you is that I have seen further progress this week. I get that you don't want to be told "give it time," but that is the only answer I can offer.
So are you going on record as stating you and ND have an NDA? its a simple yes/no question really..
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Perhaps he cannot disclose that as per some prior agreement...
It's pretty rare for NDAs to include prohibition on confirming their existence, isn't it?
I don't know. It seems obvious to me that part of going into business with someone else is an agreement to keep communication/planning/shared information/etcetera confidential. It would be weird to me for a license arrangement to not include that.
Personally, I think the chance of one party spilling the beans is negligible. What I'd like Paizo to do is to sit down with Ninja Division and work on a joint "here's what happened and here's what we're doing about it" statement. I'm not holding my breath though.
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I keep coming back to this thread hoping for some progress.
I stopped my subscriptions due to Ninja Divisions stunt and don't participate, organize or GM Starfinder games anymore.
I thought the scenarios where fantastic and was so invested in the story. But now I have only anger when I hear of Paizo. I really hope that'll change someday, so I keep coming back here to this thread.
That's pretty much where I'm at too. Five Star GM, ran/played in most of the APs, now I can't wait for the last of the AP games I'm in to end so I can wash my hands of the company. Sad... I used to buy all this stuff.
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I'm just assuming the game plan from paizo is to stall, stall, stall some more and then JAZZ-HANDS look at the awesome new minis from Wizkids in stores now! and sweep this entire project under the rug.
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If the new Wizkids minis show up before there is a resolution for this, I don't know that I can put any more trust in Paizo.
So Wizkids isn't allowed to produce minis until another company does? They're [Wizkids] are coming out next year, that's not a large time frame.
I asked on 4/22, and also would like some simple yes/no answers which I don't think violate NDA's.
1. Is there a timeline in place for how long the current situation will remain before Paizo pursues an alternative course of action on this? ie, if ND still lacks funding by date x/y/z, will Paizo *try* to do something else for this situation? If we had some sort of end date in sight, even if we don't know what the result will be, I think that would be immensely helpful.
2. Is there the possibility that Paizo even *can*, in some capacity, pursue an alternative course of action? I realize ND is its own company, and NDA are in place, but is there even anything Paizo *can* do, if it wants to? I think many backers feel like Paizo has more strength to express in this situation than they presently are, but I'm not so sure that's the case.
Knowing ND, the NDA probably does prohibit Paizo from answering those questions.
2. Is there the possibility that Paizo even *can*, in some capacity, pursue an alternative course of action?
Yes.
In fact Paizo has already done so.
See the posts & press release on Starfinder battles from Wizkids.
Unfortunately that course involves people who've already been burned paying more money to another company to get minis for this game.
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For what it's worth, the ND crew are active on their other Kickstarter pages. Granted, they're just there to chide angry backers on their negativity toward being ripped off, but still...
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If the new Wizkids minis show up before there is a resolution for this, I don't know that I can put any more trust in Paizo.So Wizkids isn't allowed to produce minis until another company does? They're [Wizkids] are coming out next year, that's not a large time frame.
Yes, wizkids can make Starfinder minis.
BUT
When people tell you not to trust Ninja Divisions and suggest repeatedly using wizkids instead during the kickstarter which paizo convinced doubtful people that they had there back and got them to pledge, only to find out it was really a fraudulent kickstarter as all evidence indicates ND knew they would not, could not finish the project on time, if at all, and were in serious financial issues, which led them to throw money for the kickstarter elsewhere (a violation of Kickstarters TOS, thereby fraudulent) its pretty classless, distasteful and incredibly insulting to come back AFTER you help screw the backers and tell them your going to put out the product many wanted, but only if there willing to spend more money while essentially telling everyone the same lies palladium told everyone when ND threw them under the bus.
i.e. "I am still unable go into specifics (and still can't estimate when we will be able to do so), but we have seen a lot of progress in the last two weeks."
I think the third time that lines been used in the last month, 2 month, or longer? And yet no evidence of progress, comments, feedback or even some sign of the slightest bit of attention and commitment by ND on this KS exists.
I stand by my previous comment. This is nothign more then a distraction and stall until "Jazz Hands: Wizkids minis are in stores now"
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When people tell you not to trust Ninja Divisions and suggest repeatedly using wizkids insteadAs was pointed out, WizKids was Paizo's first choice, and they unfortunately turned them down. This was brought up early in the KS.
its pretty classless, distasteful and incredibly insulting to come back AFTER you help screw the backers and tell them your going to put out the product many wanted, but only if there willing to spend more moneySo to go off my original question you responded to, you don't think there should be any Starfinder mini at all until ND puts them out? People want Starfinder minis, not everyone who does went in on the Kickstarter.
I stand by my previous comment. This is nothign more then a distraction and stall until "Jazz Hands: Wizkids minis are in stores now"A distraction and stall... for what exactly? Are you going to stop bringing this up once they're released? Are you afraid you and everyone else posting in here is going to get banned when they are?
To me if paizo had any confidence in ninja division they wouldn’t be arranging for someone else to also publish the line.They have confidence as they've stated in ND producing the minis that were pledged for. I do not foresee Paizo continuing to work with ND afterwards.
All that said people keep referring to an ‘nda’ but even if there is one in place there is nothing stopping the release of information provided both parties consent.
They may very well be, especially since this is a company to company NDA and not a person to person one. None of us have any idea what is all in said NDAs.
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I don’t think we know why wizkids turned them down originally. Sure it could be they simply did not have capacity at the time.
I’m afraid I can’t find the quote, but I think I remember a Paizo person somewhere or other confirming it was lack of bandwidth at the time.
The timeline is a bit shaky in my head, but I think they were just starting to really increase their D&D minis output plus they were launching their then new unpainted line.
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From what I kept hearing at the time:
Paizo went to Wizkids and Reaper first and got handed the door. Lacking any model producer who also wasn't a competitor on some level, they wound up with granting a license to Ninja Division.
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I get the impression that they reasonably concluded that Ninja Division could produce the minis they needed before Wizkids or Reaper could. It would take 20/20 hindsight to realize that that would not be the case, as it required Ninja Division to underperform even by their low standards and for Wizkids to eventually find an opening for a new line of minis. I don't think Paizo would have been able to justify waiting from then until now for Wizkids to have that opening in their schedule.