I have a number of questions about the Kineticist. I apologize if these questions have been asked before; I just want them clarified in one place before I play the class in a PFS game.
1. Does a Kineticist have free access to both simple blasts for their Focus? My take on the reading is “no”, they have to select one, but reading some of the forum posts makes me question this.
1a. If the answer is no; how can the Kineticist get access to their other simple blast so they can overcome what the other blast cannot?
2. Are both simple blasts types (physical and magical) Ranged Touch Attacks?
3. A sentence in the Kinetic Blast section mentions that all Kinetic Blasts count as magical for overcoming DR. I’m assuming that this means the physical blasts are magic for the purpose of overcoming DR/Magic but have to face DR normally otherwise. Am I correct?
3a. It seems silly, but just to be sure: Do magical Kinetic Blasts ignore DR?
For 1,no, and I believe they can pick up the other simple blast by choosing the same element with Expanded Element later on.
2)Physical blasts target normal AC, energy blasts target touch.3)Correct, the physical blasts bypass DR/magic, but have to deal with other types normally. Blasts that deal energy damage are not subject to DR, as normal, but they are subject to resistance or immunity to energy.
Edit:I'm too slow to keep up with responses in this thread.
Does anyone know if an Aether Kineticist can use a move action to gather energy to reduce burn on Kenetic Blade?
The way I am understanding it as written. You have to have both hands free to gather energy to reduce the burn but because Aethers have to have an object in their hands to transfer the power to, they will never get to use this ability.
Also Soul Knife was one of my favorite classes and they made blades of force without any object to channel the energy into.
On that note why can't the Blade disappear at the start of your next turn rather than the end with a feat (that way you still have to pay the burn as the developers want you to). Because as it stands you are going to be in melee with no weapon to defend yourself with, you don't threaten (so you can't give flank) and can't make opportunity attacks.
I am thinking the opportunity attacks seems like the reason the developers want it to disappear.
Kinetic Blade can be used on an 'attack action' or a full'attack. The attack action is a specific kind of Standard Action, which is why you can't Vital Strike on a spring attack or charge. So no Kinetic Blade on Attacks of Opportunity.
kinetic blade, fist, and whip all say that they're done as part of an attack or full-round action, but kinetic fist works differently than the other two (as kinetic whip states that it works like kinetic blade but grants reach). Kinetic fist is interesting (and potentially more damaging) than the other two because a monk/kineticist will have more/better dice than a character with one of the kinetic weapon options.
So no, no doing any of the above as AoOs (since attacks of op are neither a standard or full-round action).
This and a horse mean that you can full burn every round all day and still be a very capable fighter, healer, utilitarian, and more.
i could work with burn if it worked like this. As it is now, it's too harsh for my liking.
I downloaded the playtest last night and have thoroughly enjoyed reading about the kineticist! I've got a couple of questions that could use some clarification, though. I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere in this thread. I read the first 5 pages or so, and then realized there were over 30 pages now. Wow!
To the questions:
I'm a bit confused about how the reduction in burn costs are applied. At 5th level, a kineticist gains Infusion Specialization. Let's say a particular pyrokineticist (let's call him Edgar) chooses form infusions. When Edgar uses two form infusions (say, Burning and Extended Range), how does his Infusion Specialization apply the reduction in burn cost? Are both burn costs added together and then the reduction is applied, meaning Edgar would take 1 burn to use both effects simultaneously? Or, is the Infusion Specialization figured for each form infusion individually, meaning he'd take 0 burn while using both of those two infusions simultaneously? I figure it's the latter, since he doesn't have a ton of wiggle room with the way burn seems to work.
Next, when Edgar chooses 'form' infusions at 5th level for his Infusion Specialization does that mean at level 8 he has no choice but to reduce the burn cost of his form infusions again? Or can he instead choose substance infusions at this point? The name 'specialization' leads me to believe you lock yourself into that type of infusion and can't choose the other type at later levels. But the wording in the description leads me to believe that you can choose to reduce the burn cost of either form or substance infusions each time regardless of which you chose before. Again, I feel confident that it's the latter and that I'm just reading into the title of the ability too much, but clarification always helps.
Lastly, his chance to hit against normal AC seems to be lacking. Granted, when he hits he has the real possibility of leaving a nice gaping wound in his foe's torso, but so much of his ability to hit and the damage he does is dependent on luck. I haven't tested a build yet, but it seems like he's got about a 50% chance to hit against an average single CR-appropriate monster. (He'll do better against little packs of guys who generally have lower AC, but he'll still miss pretty often, too.) Adding to that is the fact that his damage can be pretty spikey. A player who's cursed by the dice gods could easily roll a string of missed attacks, potentially followed by a very underwhelming hit. I don't exactly know if this is a problem that playtesters are noticing, but it seems like it could be very discouraging to the player. Just my $0.03.
Again, I'm really pumped about this class! Great work!
A Kineticist can only use one Form Infusion at a time (and one Substance). So he selects Infusion Specialization: Form, fires an Extended Range Fire Blast, he takes 1-1=0 Burn. But if Burning is also a Form Specialization, a Burning Extended Range Fire Blast is against the rules.
You can freely select Form at one level and Substance three levels later. You almost have to, since at the moment there's basically no value in selecting Form more than twice but a /lot/ of value in taking it twice.
AC considerations are why I'm leaning heavily on Touch blasts. Hopefully we'll get some kind of additional accuracy augmentation on final release.
Thanks for the clarification! It seems I didn't read the Kinetic Blast ability well enough. I'll agree on the touch blasts, too. They are even more spikey since they have reduced static damage, but they will have little or no problem finding their target.
Can't wait to roll one of these suckers!
A Kineticist can only use one Form Infusion at a time (and one Substance).
I just reread the rules after seeing this and found the paragraph you're talking about.
This is terrible. So any form you want to use you stuck using it at 30 ft cause you can't put extend range. I can't even mention how bad this is not being able to mix and match as you want.
I desperately want to use Many Throw and Foe Throw at the same time, but they are both Form Infusions :(
Perhaps *your* kineticist might. Not everyone's will. That's my point.
I have to say that in almost all cases running a Kineticist with low Con is a mistake. Even without factoring in Burn, the Con increases blast damage and is linked to most of the Kinetisist's saving throw DCs. You should have at least a 20 con (with gear) by level 20, and that's assuming you start with a 14.
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There are composite blast missing:
Earth and Cold dont combine into anything.
Earth and Aether dont combine into anything.
Earth and Electricity dont combine into anything.
Fire and electricity dont combine into anything.Fire and Cold dont combine but I get that.
Ahh, Found the issue. Cold and Electricity only combine with 1 other element each. Cold to Air and Electricity to water.
Antipode! Fire + cold = antipode! Crono trigger! haha
But I'm curious about anyones thoughts on this Crono trigger styled idea.
Think it would be too messed up if you allowed two kineticists to attack at once (both taking part of the total burn) to combine their kinetic blasts? ala duel techs in Crono trigger? Just name the new action duel tech or combined blasts (no copy right issues and it allows for more than just two to do it )
** spoiler omitted **...
I feel like Mark already posted a Teamwork feat for this earlier in the thread.
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Any level 20 Kineticist worth their class would have a Con of /at least/ 24. Unless you're saying that that sorcerer only has a 14 Cha.At level 20, he would have an average of 90 hp from class levels, 140 from constitution of 24, 20 from toughness, 20 from favored class (at least until favored races are shown), and an additional 80 from an always on Water Elemental form from Elemental Body VI.
That's 350 hp, and burn is not lethal damage. It's nonlethal. And since you're a devotee of Kuthon, you don't even care what that number is until it reaches your current hp.
I politely disagree, though not with the vitriol others have shown.
Perhaps *your* kineticist might. Not everyone's will. That's my point. Let's go with a 14 Cha, though I'm not sure where the 15 would have gone, con maybe? So the sorcerer has more functional hit points than the kineticist by the time he hit 20th? ****
A Sorcerer with a 14 CHA can only cast up to 4th level spells, so he actually won't be doing jack-diddly damage-wise compared to the Kineticist at 20th level. And poor system mastery =/= a poor class. A Kineticist starting with a 14 CON should still be applying level up bonuses and bonuses for WBL to have at least a 24 CON (and the Sorcerer is presumably going to have a comparable casting stat).
The Kineticist does appear to have some issues, but it's hard to actually address those with weirdly unrealistic hypothetical scenarios.
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Perhaps *your* kineticist might. Not everyone's will. That's my point.I have to say that in almost all cases running a Kineticist with low Con is a mistake. Even without factoring in Burn, the Con increases blast damage and is linked to most of the Kinetisist's saving throw DCs. You should have at least a 20 con (with gear) by level 20, and that's assuming you start with a 14.
Given that CON is the kineticist's casting stat, a score in the 30's is more likely by level 20.
While deliberately neglecting a class stat is possible, nobody is going to have sympathy for the barbarian that dumps strength for charisma.
With a 20 point buy, I had little difficulty building a character with an effective 26 DEX and 20 CON at 10th level. I originally stated her out for a 24 CON, but shifted her focus to dexterity for increased accuracy.
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OK, whew. I just finished reading everything. Way to go guys! Some great stuff here. It's nice to see how each of you come to the puzzle of class-building from a different direction. Reading each perspective, even ones that seem contradictory, gives me a glimpse into how the class works in one particular playtester's game, and so slowly, I'm beginning to see more of the true final class revealed by the composite of those glimpses like when throwing powder at an invisible target.
Mark,
Glad to have you back. Now having read everything... do you think there are problems with the kineticist's power level in realtion to other classes? I see more and more negative opinions/reviews/playtests.
Mark,
Glad to have you back. Now having read everything... do you think there are problems with the kineticist's power level in realtion to other classes? I see more and more negative opinions/reviews/playtests.
The key is not to think of them as "negative", per se. Critique and playtests are defined in terms of the delta, the change. Each player will always have suggestions to move the class where they want it to be for their character or game. In fact, having all these posts is a sign of popularity, that people actually really like the kineticist and want to provide feedback to make it the best it can be. If you look back at previous years, the classes that people truly didn't like just didn't get as many posts.
I will say having almost no Feats that synergize with the class leaves me slots open for nice Feats like Fast Learner to shore up the bad skill points.
Silver linings?
The key is not to think of them as "negative", per se. Critique and playtests are defined in terms of the delta, the change. Each player will always have suggestions to move the class where they want it to be for their character or game. In fact, having all these posts is a sign of popularity, that people actually really like the kineticist and want to provide feedback to make it the best it can be. If you look back at previous years, the classes that people truly didn't like just didn't get as many posts.Mark,
Glad to have you back. Now having read everything... do you think there are problems with the kineticist's power level in realtion to other classes? I see more and more negative opinions/reviews/playtests.
Yeah, I feel like people want to love this class. I think the current build is super conservative (actually, I've noticed that trait in a number of the playtest classes) which doesn't surprise me at all given the way people feel about unlimited class features. I really have to ask though, is there a great deal of benefit in attacking something unlimited times? Pretty sure those swords and arrows and fists do the same, and yet no one worries about those same a features being unlimited because you can only kill something if its still alive. Killing the local fauna as you travel doesn't really have any impact either. So what am I missing?
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My primary points somehow got threadjacked...so I'll try to re-emphasize the points :)
1) The arcane could do at 1st what the kineticist had to wait for 10th.
2) Regardless of theorycraft, optimization, or system mastery I feel there is no way for the pure kineticist to match this (utility, versatility, and of course outright DPR.) Please if you have a build that works post so I can adjust (or re-roll) my playtest character.
If you actually have 20th level builds...go ahead and run them in similar challenges as put forth in the optimization threads...but take into account that it's the kin utility that will win the encounter, not DPR. Because this isn't a DPR class. But if you have a DPR build, post that too. I certainly could use one to help rebuild my character.
** spoiler omitted **
In my playtesting so far the kineticist (which I love!) has been struggling to keep up both in and outside of combat situations. I'm sure playtesting experiences are different but that's what I've (and the other kineticists in the groups I've played with) encountered so far. What has been your experience? I've seen a good deal of theorycrafting (I'm guilty of that too!) but the playtest feedback posts have been pretty spartan. Though I've posted my results so far. And what theorycraft I did engage in was based on raw numbers. Not optimized because if we did that...then wouldn't it be fair to be on equal ground? If that is the case how would our sorc/wiz 20 lose to the 20th level...
I can't speak to anyone else's characters, and I haven't actually done a full 20th level build of the character, but if I were to level my 5th level playtest aerokineticist to 20th he'd have about Dex 32 and Con 30, which would give him 333 hp. Even burning through 120 of those to max out his FTB, he'd still have more than 200 hit points.
Hey Mark Glad to see you back, And hope you and your kith and kin are doing well. :)
After reading alot of the critiques on the Burn mechanic, Have you changed, not changed, or have started editing the Burn mechanic into something you find more effective?
I can't speak to anyone else's characters, and I haven't actually done a full 20th level build of the character, but if I were to level my 5th level playtest aerokineticist to 20th he'd have about Dex 32 and Con 30, which would give him 333 hp. Even burning through 120 of those to max out his FTB, he'd still have more than 200 hit points.My primary points somehow got threadjacked...so I'll try to re-emphasize the points :)
1) The arcane could do at 1st what the kineticist had to wait for 10th.
2) Regardless of theorycraft, optimization, or system mastery I feel there is no way for the pure kineticist to match this (utility, versatility, and of course outright DPR.) Please if you have a build that works post so I can adjust (or re-roll) my playtest character.
If you actually have 20th level builds...go ahead and run them in similar challenges as put forth in the optimization threads...but take into account that it's the kin utility that will win the encounter, not DPR. Because this isn't a DPR class. But if you have a DPR build, post that too. I certainly could use one to help rebuild my character.
** spoiler omitted **
In my playtesting so far the kineticist (which I love!) has been struggling to keep up both in and outside of combat situations. I'm sure playtesting experiences are different but that's what I've (and the other kineticists in the groups I've played with) encountered so far. What has been your experience? I've seen a good deal of theorycrafting (I'm guilty of that too!) but the playtest feedback posts have been pretty spartan. Though I've posted my results so far. And what theorycraft I did engage in was based on raw numbers. Not optimized because if we did that...then wouldn't it be fair to be on equal ground? If that is the case how would our sorc/wiz 20 lose to the 20th level...
So for the purposes of actual play your character has the hit points of someone with twelve fewer points of constitution. I think that matters. Con is not giving you much else(your saves are well beyond where they need to be with half the investment).
Substance Infusions include Burning Infusion, Chilling Infusion, Entangling Infusion, Pure Flame Infusion, Magnetic Infusion, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Pushing Infusion, and Rare Metal Infusion. I do note that many of these infusions seem to require combination blasts to function.
First is the near total lack of Substance infusions...
You'll note that my entire comment was based on the TELEKINETICIST (Aether), for which none of those Substance Infusions apply beyond "Pushing Infusion" as I mentioned. Combination blasts specifically do not make Aether suddenly qualify for them, unless you're referring to the Teamwork feat, in which case, we'll see.
Each infusion lists the specific blasts they can be applied to, and Telekinesis' one blast is incapable of any but Pushing.
On the flip-side, I'm not sure what I'd suggest for a substance infusion for Aether, so my comment isn't really constructive.
Maybe "Condensed Aether" -- "Your blast is so focused, it no longer requires an item to throw"? Or maybe one that will actually let you use the thrown item's properties? (I'm thinking a magic dagger with returning maybe in a bandolier of some sort?) TK using a thrown item's properties could be an interesting offset for lack of other Essence, AND give the party a use for all those random weapons they won't use... Heh.
(Edited mostly for spelling. Ugh.)
Substance Infusions include Burning Infusion, Chilling Infusion, Entangling Infusion, Pure Flame Infusion, Magnetic Infusion, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Pushing Infusion, and Rare Metal Infusion. I do note that many of these infusions seem to require combination blasts to function.
First is the near total lack of Substance infusions...
You'll note that my entire comment was based on the TELEKINETICIST (Aether), for whiche none of those Substance Infusions aplly beyond "Pushing Infusion" as I mentioned. Combination blasts specifically do not make Aether suddenly qualify for them, unless you're referring to the Teamwork feat, in which case, we'll see.
Each infusion lists the specific blasts they can be applied to, and Telekinesis' one blast is incapable of any but Pushing.
On the flipside, I'm not sure what I'd suggest for a substance infusion for Aether, so my comment isn't really constructive.
Maybe "Condensed Aether" -- "Your blast is so focused, it no longer requires an item to throw"? Or maybe one that'll actually let you use the thrown item's properties? (I'm thinking a magic dagger with returning maybe in a bandolier of some sort?)
I have more infusions of both substance and infusion for several elements up my sleeve!
If I was an aether user I would probably try to crush internal organs instead of chucking stuff. Or pick up one guy and using him as an improvised weapon.
I am very interested in what you have up your sleeve for this class, Mark.
Absolutely loving pretty much all of it so far. Even my few gripes aren't even gripes, more curiosities.
The one thing that I don't like - is having to wait so long for the book! Heh.
I'm thinking if the end result doesn't have a "Shape (Element)" option, though, I'll need to house rule something to that effect. Geo/Terra-forming steps in a mountain, parting a pool of water to find an object, clearing a safe spot in a storm, extinguishing or amplifying a natural fire...
But I can't think of anything a Telekinetic would get out of this that isn't already covered by Telekinetic Haul. (Which I love aside from the logic-loop of a 1k lb object only hitting one target for standard damage)
It's weird. This is a game I've been running nearly 2 years, but I'm hoping they actually finish it Saturday so I can have them play test these. I can make all the NPCs in the world, but it just won't be the same!
Must see them in ACTION!
Telekinetic's shaping ability should be *all* elements, but to a much weaker degree than what the actual elemental kineticist can do.
For example, if the general shaping of an element allows for something like one 5 ft. square per level, allow the telekinetic to shape any element but at 1/4th his level. So he'll be able to part water, move earth, smother flames, control the air etc. but only as an elemental kineticist of 1/4th his level. Perhaps maybe half his level though.
Oh here's something that just doesn't make sense:
Magnetic Infusion says it grants a -4 to Reflex saves against metal objects, using Blade Barrier as an example.
Blade Barrier has Force blades.
Frankly, the only good thing I have to say about this class is that it has an interesting concept. Unfortunately, as it is written right now, most of the variants and their class abilities simply don't work. I'd be willing to say that every kineticist attack went against touch AC, or simply reflex for half, because otherwise you'll end up being crushed by that 3/4 BAB. We've seen that attacking versus touch hasn't made the Gunslinger overpowered, and nothing says death by massive damage like 4d12+16. Giving the kineticist an ability to actually connect, even at reduced damage would go a long way towards fixing the class.
Then there's the Burn damage. Quite possibly the absolute worst class feature ever. Let's punch myself in the face just to sustain my already underwhelming combat ability for an extra turn or two. Not having any way to heal it makes it utterly crippling. Even just making it a pool of Burn before the damage comes up would solve a lot of the problems.
This class is malfunctioning pretty hard, and from what I've been reading here, I'm not even sure that people are paying attention.
Gunslingers attacking touch AC is overpowered. You are, quite literally, the first person I've ever seen who says otherwise.
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The Kineticist can hit ~80 - 85% of the time versus normal AC, but only if optimized for accuracy.
Even with high accuracy, the kineticist is still dealing low damage compared to most classes unless going nova and taking a great deal of burn. I would be okay with the lower damage if the class had more utility, both in terms of class abilities and skills.