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74 posts. Alias of stephane abs.


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I'll be honest and say that I'm eyeing a lot of Path of War from the perspective of a melee build (weapon and/or unarmed) as opposed to ranged. In that light, indeed a lot of the maneuvers are useable at range, like an arcane archer on steroids.

To return to my Flux comments; Is there some design goal/principle preventing you from allowing long ranges or wide areas? If not, perhaps Lance of Power could allow animus to upgrade range in addition to damage (for example use 1 animus to increase to range X, then an extra 2 animus for +4d6 damage). This way you don't need a lot of different versions of the same power as each power is highly customisable (uniquely to the mystic). Similar things could be done to other maneuvers.

For Master of the Elements, since duplicate stances are a no go, would it be possible to move the stance to a lower level with a decreased effect (Elemental Body I) then allow it to gradually scale (perhaps even to Elemental Body IV at Initiator Level 17)

I'll try to make an account on GitP and join the discussion there.

I read up on the latest verson of flux and the mystic and... damn.... totally worth the wait. Although as a whole the class seems a bit unpolished the core idea is rock solid. I do admit that with all the little moving parts it'll require some more read throughs to get a complete understanding of the workings of this class. Nonetheless, these are my remarks so far:

- The class as a whole seems a tad underpowered compared to other PoW classes or pathfinder classes as a whole. The randomness of withheld maneuvers begs for either maneuvers performed by the mystic to be stronger or for the mystic to have something else to do in addition to maneuvers. The first is only partially accomplished. Only Elemental Flux can be boosted and then not always in quite a meaninful way. Perhaps the bossting of maneuvers could be 'baked into' the mystic instead of Flux? This way you are not forced to take flux to use your class feature. On the latter, I fear the glyphs are of questionable value in combat, but I'll have to read them a few more times before I get a clearer picture.

- I like the Anima archetype and, like many over on GitP, I too would like this ability merged again with the base class (perhaps at the cost of something else). This could solve the underpowered comment I made earlier (although playtesting would be required of course). The archetype could stay with an even greater focus on or a greater version of anima (it really feels like some kind of wild mage or something which is awesome). However, if the archetype is to stay in one form or the other, I would refrain from switching to charisma as the main stat. By switching it up you force the entire character in another role (mainly face) for no reason, with much less support for that kind of character. It would, for example, hurt things like multiclassing with monk.

- On Flux; I really like the latest version! I do however miss some of the more fun abilities (or they come at very high levels). For example: more ranged attacks (Energy strike and Torrent are nice but where are the others? For example one that allows you to make all attacks at range), more area attacks (Lance of Power and the Ring are great but where are the beefier version of Lance or lesser version of Ring? While the upgraded torrent is nice, some fireball-esque power would be great too!), Master of the Elements is supercool, but where is the lesser version for people who don't play so high level?

Uhoh this went on longer than I expected. I will conclude that I thus far greatly appreciate the Mystic. Good job!

Thanks for the information! Will check the Riven Hourglass beta.

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Thanks for the conjecture Insain Dragoon :)

The reason why I'm wondering about ranged elemental attacks is because it would make for a more mystical themed alternative to the more traditional solar wind. Instead of attacks with bows, you could have pure elemental bolt style attacks (like a street fighter hadoken) or even elemental damage enhanced fists at range (a bit like the "blood crow" spell which screams martial maneuver to me).

All this in addition to the more traditional melee attacks (like a shoryken from street fighter). In effect you could have a small set of maneuvers for melee strikes and a small set for ranged/AOE strikes in addition to the rest (counters, boosts, party buffs,...)

Some kind of elemental beam or lance attack (and other AOE's) is just me wanting a kamehameha :p

Since elemental flux is seriously one of the most anticipated things from POW expanded, are there already some spoilers to entertain the masses? :p

- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on ranged elemental attacks?
- Will there be a focus (or will there be a subset of maneuvers that focuses) on AOE attacks? (explosions, beams,...)
- Will there be a possibility to do force damage with some maneuvers?
- Will there be synergy some with unarmed attacks, as well as weapon attacks? (discipline weapons, increased effects,...)
- Will the actual mystic be more like a more mystical monk (eat my flamy fists in melee and have my firebolts/firebeams at range) or more like a maneuver wizard (I'll pound you from afar with elemental attacks/bolts/beams/storms and I hope you won't get to me)? Or something else entirely?

Nooo Kaio Ken, I need to have it :p

Call it 'Burninating all night long' or something...

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An archetype that gets flurry of blows, unarmed damage progression and some kind of mental stat to AC. Perhaps with a ki pool that can be used to pay for burn costs.

Too bad the name kinetic fist is already taken. Would sound good next to sacred fist.

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As closed as a typical pathfinder locked wooden door!

Mmmm... I don't get that logic. When I play any kind of gish character I have to deal with any combination of up to 10 buffing spells that affect my sheet.... I don't see how RAGE of all things makes a class too "fiddly and complicated"....

I like the concept of burn. I like the fact it poses a risk when using it. I like that you burn your body to become stronger. I REALLY don't like its implementation and actual ingame effect.

When ingame all you will ever see is a kineticist growing huge in the morning and doing move action + blast the entire day, saving a few burn points for boss fights, something is wrong with the burn mechanics. It feels WRONG to use your powers like that.

Burn should be something you DON'T use in the morning after breakfast. It should be a mechanic you save for during combat. After all, your character is probably not a masochist, he saves his selfdamaging power for when he needs it; and it should be something that is encouraged to be used in combat instead of out of combat. However, when you use burn in combat like it is now, the kineticist class as a whole just falls flat.

however, I don't really have a solution to fix this...

EDIT: To better explain my point. MECHANICALLY you are rewarded for using your powers in the most UN-THEMATICAL way.

Mark, can you lift a tiny bit of the veil (at the end of the playtest)? When you say limited array of substances for the playtest, do you mean more like 25% of what is planned or more like 80% of what is planned? And what about wild talents as a whole? Just how many design space is allocated to the kineticist? Do we get pages upon pages of never seen before wild talents or is the current list more or less the number we're going to see?

Thanks in advance for your reply :)

Arthanthos, I'm not really sure what your goal is but damage is about the least of my worries here.

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I haven't fully read the last pages of 'heated' discussions, but I'm thinking no one is disagreeing with this class having a dex focus, instead of con. What people are saying is that it SHOULDN'T be.

Also, for someone not familiar with alchemists, Rynjin's comparison was a real eye-opener. An alchemist can outdamage a kineticist without too much problem while combining some of the best buffs available to different kinds of kineticists. 4+ int on an int focused class vs 2+ int on an int dumping class is just the final nail in the coffin.

So in fact it's impossible to dismiss the effect? If I'm an elemental or activate a shield/metal body/... I'm forced in that form for the remainder of the day? Doesn't sound too hot tbh :-/ (pun intended)

Some more remarks:

- I don't see the point of kinetic fist. Can't you just form a cestus with kinetic blade and more or less do the same thing? I know the game effect is not exactly the same but it seems too much alike to be two different talents (maybe they should also be baked into wild blast).

- Say, at the start of the day I invest burn in my defence and kinetic form. I do some adventuring and afterwards the party arrives at a town. The guard warns them the townsfolk are superstitious/peace-loving/not fond of adventurers so asks to behave like normal people. I deactivate my kinetic form and shield because apparently the local villagers don't like an elemental running around in their town. However, if I read everything correctly my burn is still present and spent. Afterwards I have another combat (maybe bandits attack the town), do I have to spend burn AGAIN to activate my defence and kinetic form, gaining AGAIN nonlethal HP damage? If yes this might be a serious problem in actual play.
* Maybe allow abilities to be paused but afterwards resumed? This way when you spent burn for for example kinetic form, your kinetic form is 'unlocked' for the rest of the day but you can switch between normal and kinetic form at will. This would help immensely in situations where being 'flashy' is unwelcome.
* Or say something like: when you activate talent x, FOR THE DURATION of the effect y burn is put aside and damages you. When you deactivate the ability the burn disappears and the nonlethal damage is healed normally. This would only be for the all-day duration abilities, not the actual blasts or healing power.

- Aether feels like it is pushed too much in the telekinetic department. Maybe allow it a force damage blast. And what about a kinetic form? Maybe change the text of kinetic form to include a form for Aether? Perhaps abandon the 'as Elemental Body' part and just write custom rules for the form?

A customizable kinetic form... now that might be something...

A tail, fiery hair, grow large and furry, ..

Nah I'm just joking...

Or am I?

I'm with dragoon on this one. I don't (necessarily) want to be an elemental (although other kinds of transformation would be cool though).

And what about the Aether user? He has no kinetic form to choose from.

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mplindustries wrote:
Burn is not a class mechanic, it's a cost. The mechanic is "do this at-will but take this penalty until you get to the point when you can ignore the penalty."

But that's just terrible design. In reality it is: "do this at will at the point when you can ignore the penalty". As it is now the penalty is so steep for so little effect you will never bother with any of it until it is free. That is why, once again, I'm an advocate for scaling wild talents useable at different 'grades' and available early. Using burn should be a mechanic that allows you to do greater than level appropriate things, instead of allowing you to keep pace with everyone else...

Good idea Insain Dragoon.

and Marc, that Kaioken... make it happen! XD

To be serious.. Yes, make something like it happen. Using a move action to reduce burn by 1 sounds like it should have an upgrade for 1 full round action or more.


Glad to have you back. Now having read everything... do you think there are problems with the kineticist's power level in realtion to other classes? I see more and more negative opinions/reviews/playtests.

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To follow Paizo's example... I wouldn't put any 'fluff' in a 'coreline' book, except little pieces at the beginning of a chapter. However, for a 'setting' book...

You might be referring to 3.0 psionics? 3.5 psionics were actually balanced. Or do I have the two reversed?

I don't know about Carrie, I just saw Aether / Fire / Kinetic Fist ===> Vegeta!

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Here I present a quick review of the blast and infusion talents. Warning, it is a wall of text! I must say I’m in love with the kineticist but feel (like many others I presume) the class seems to be missing or lacking stuff.

General kineticist remarks:

Burn: I like the concept of burn but it’s really debilitating now. Perhaps decrease the effect of the damage (1/2 lvl?) and/or allow it to be healed faster (example: recover 1 burn every 10 minutes). Other suggestions are a ‘free’ burn pool but I’m more in favor of the reduced effect and increased recovery. This would keep it more ‘unique’. Maybe give extra options in combat like the ‘move action to reduce burn’. Perhaps a fullround action to ‘charge up’ even more? Perhaps there are better or cooler things but things like this would give more options in combat instead of the “this round I’m gonna… hmmmm…. blast an enemy again I guess?”.

Wild Talents: Perhaps it is better to give a separate progression of infusion talents and other talents, because right now you’re practically forced to take infusion talents to remain competitive in combat, largely avoiding the utility talents.

Kinetic blast: I’d give the kineticist both blast types available to him at 1st level. This way a character isn’t gimped by the odd DR, high AC, resistance,… encountered in the early levels and can contribute meaningfully before having access to expanded element. I’d also give each type 2 blasts (described later). General remark: is the kineticist immune to its own blast? For example later on when using explosion or cloud.
Aether: I’d give it a second blast type doing d6 – 1 force damage affected by spell resistance and requiring a touch attack (the aether kineticist should have a ‘magic missile’ option from the get go). The reduced damage prevents it from becoming overpowering compared to traditional damage types. I’d also change the force ward to recover 1 HP every round; still not enough to help much in combat but allows your char to be ready for the next one pronto (for example in a dungeon). Perhaps (alternatively) include an option to recover the barrier 25%/half/75% or completely (pending testing) as a full round action? Gives a character more options in combat. An aether kineticist under heavy attacks, surrounded by enemies trying his best round after round to maintain his barrier is a mental image I find awesome.
Air: Wild blasts are good, as is the defense. Good job!
Earth: Add a ranged touch blast dealing acid damage (the energy damage associated with Earth). Otherwise the existing blast and defence are good.
Fire: I’d give it a second blast type doing d6 + 1 bludgeoning damage targeting normal AC. This represents pockets of air superheated and exploding near the enemy, creating shockwaves. Since searing flesh is the weakest of the defenses it should also affect manufactured weapons, but perhaps not reach weapons. Punishing enemies for attacking feels like a fire thing. I really like the grapple distinction, very nice!
Water: Wild blasts are good, as is the defense. Again good job! Air and Water really seem the strongest, most fleshed out options in the playtest.

Infusion talents:
General comment: I’d make sure talents remain useful during the life of a kineticist, especially because it is difficult to get rid of useless talents or talents you no longer like (only 3 in your lifetime). This also applies for the non-infusion talents. I feel this would be best accomplished by allowing increased effects by increasing burn expenditure. In addition, some late game talents feel like it should be possible to have them earlier (like explosion coming online at lvl 16(!). I don’t care how cool that fireball is, most mages don’t even bother using theirs anymore). More on this later.
The alternative to scaling talents is a vastly larger list of non-scaling talents (like it is now). For example: a levitation talent, a flying talent, a high speed flying talent,… instead of one upgradeable “fly talent”. If this approach is used both the number of talents gained has to increase (maybe even 1 each level) and/or vastly improved training opportunities. If feel a smaller number of talents that are varied in power and customizable by accepting burn remain useful throughout your entire career and can give the kineticist some much needed utility.

Burning Infusion: Add greater burning damage for more burn. Perhaps add a clause, when using X burn, a creature dying from the blast or the fire afterwards leaves no remains (making raise dead impossible and thus requiring resurrection). This feels like a real fire thing to do.

Chain Lightning: Reduce level, prerequisites and change burn to 1; allow it to arc to only a second target. Allow extra targets for more burn. Maybe up to 3 targets for 2 burn, and current version for 3 burn.

Chilling Infusion: Seems ok for what it does but comes in late and offers no scalability whatsoever. Perhaps lower lvl, prerequisites and burn giving a more mild status effect? Then allow increased burn to give staggered. Perhaps even more burn to increase the status effect duration?

Cloud: Cool effect but comes in late. This could remain as a high level only option.

Cyclone: This talent or a reworked explosion should really be possible by fire (and possible aether). Again, maybe add scalability by lowering the burn and prereqs and reducing the area? Increase the area with more and more burn.

Entangling infusion: Has no prerequisite. If this was intended: Great! A powerful but costly early game option. More talents should be available early like this one.

Explosion: Lower prerequisites and burn, allow for a smaller explosion and range (example 5 ft radius and 30ft range for 1 burn). A pyro should be able to use this at the same level a mage begins fireballing but the actual effect will be weaker than a fireball. Increased burn gives greater (possible) range and AOE. By accepting more burn you can decide if you want a farther boom, a bigger boom or both. So at high level a pyro can spam smallish explosions at will (because specialization makes the small effect free), but big explosions will cost him HP.

Extended/Extreme range: By using scalability, this can be one talent, allowing room for more talents.

Foe Throw: And much fun was to be had by all. I love this!

Impale: Love the mental image. Perhaps this can be reworked to a universal line talent? This would give every element a ranged AOE option, but I’d keep explosion as fire only. Increased burn could extend the line.

Kinetic Blade/Kinetic Fists: Should be useable at level 1. Reduce the burn to 0 but only allowing 1d6 damage? Allow for 1 extra burn to switch to the full damage. This way a melee kineticist is possible from level 1 instead of level 5! Especially in PFS, twiddling your thumbs for 4 levels is mindnumbingly boring. I’d also make the effects work for one whole round like kinetic whip so you can make attacks of opportunity. An extra burn could give the blade the whip effect and perhaps a similar effect for fists is needed?

Kinetic Whip: See kinetic blade.

Many Throw: I like this soo much but comes online sooo late. Lowering the prereqs and burn but also targets might be a solution. Then extra burn could scale to this current version eventually. I also feel this could be a fire thing (ah la firebrand spell in DnD 3.5)

Pure Flame Infusion: Another late game addition. Perhaps let it only give a small penetration bonus at low level and low burn. Then let it scale to the full version presented in the playtest document.

Magnetic Infusion: I like the idea but the effect sounds pretty tame for 2 burn. I like the idea that it gives metal blasts a permanent accuracy bonus on one target given some specialization.

Pressurized Blast Infusion: I like the effect. The kineticist will never be able to push as well as a dedicated maneuver specialist, so why limit the distance moved? Perhaps accepting burn could give a bonus to the CMB roll?

Pushing Infusion: Merge it with Pressurized Blast Infusion. This is a redundant talent that takes up valuable space.

Rare Metal Infusion: I like the idea, but I assume some kind of Kinetic Bracer is in the works to give an enhancement bonus to your blast (or maybe allow Amulet of Mighty Fists to do the same) to increase the accuracy of the kineticist. In this regard maybe this talent needs another purpose. Maybe a focus on more exotic materials?

Sharding: A similar treatment to explosion? But keep it as a poor man’s (aka nonpyro’s) explosion.

Snaking: This could be a simple, early and cheap line area that by accepting additional burn receives the snaking benefit?

Spray: Lvl 10 for a smallish cone is way too late. Maybe allow earlier access to a 15ft cone and let it upgrade bigger and bigger. Perhaps allow burn to also upgrade to full instead of half blast damage. This should really also be a universal talent.

Torrent: aha a line effect. What I was waiting for but why no forcebeams or firestreams? This and snaking could be one upgradeable talent. Accepting burn increases the line and eventually adds snaking.

That’s it for now. Thanks for reading!

Are there any updates on the Mystic and that juicy elemental discipline?

Except you're not really amazing at burning down cities and forests....

An idea (I have more incoming but need time to write them up):

Element fire, aether (maybe others?); Type form infusion; Level 9???; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th
Associated Blasts blue flame, fire, others???
Saving Throw Reflex half
You focus your energy and create a controlled miniaturized explosion. The explosion is centered on you and the radius of the spread is 5 feet. All creatures and objects except for yourself within the explosion take your blast’s damage. The saving throw DC is Dexterity-based. By accepting 1 additional burn the radius increases to 10 feet and the center of the explosion is centered on a point 60 feet from you. For up to 2 additional burn, for a maximum total of 4, increase the radius by 5 feet and the range by 30 feet.
//Notes: Gives the kineticist his explosions earlier but at highly reduced effectiveness (which he regains later on).

Edit: The level of an infusion is used to calculate things like globe of invulnerability or am I missing something else entirely?

I think it'd be better if enhancement bonus is done as an item or with a spell (as it is normally done). The problem I foresee is when making some kind of switchhitter (blast + fists) you'd need both these new 'kinetic bracers' (like the idea above) and the very expensive amulet of mighty fists, hence my earlier proposition to make the wild blast count as an unarmed attack for effects that give an enhancement bonus; aka amulet of mighty fists increases both your unarmed strike and your wild blast, as do things like magic fang (be friendly to your ranger buddy!)

Daedalus, if you compare your math to a basic meteor swarm (found by many the weakest of the 9th lvl spells) cast by a sorcerer the amount of damage caused by a kineticist seems a bit lackluster, especially if the sorcerer takes a bloodline which boosts all his dice or all his elemental dice (and while crossblooded exists to combine the two, I'm leaving it out since we don't know what archetypes kinetisist will have). A double blast will do more damage true (especially if you tack on the AOE blast talent) but the sorcerer will do it more than 2 times without going unconscious. When he finally cast his little trick 6 or even 7 times, he'll just say 'oh well' and open up with his 8th lvl spells.

I'm fearing a kineticist will unfavorably compare to a blastermage (both sorcerer, wizard and arcanist and even a magus), having lower damage (only even or slightly above by putting yourself into a coma afterwards). All the while a 'real' mage has a much greater toolbox of utility and other effects as they are not restricted by element (or have powers miles away from wild talents).

The ability to use your powers at will is very powerful indeed, but I have yet to encounter a dedicated mage who manages to 'tap out' in the middle of a day. After all what is the use of 'weaker' at will abilities if the other guys always have their 'stronger' abilities when it matters?

I'd say let a pyrokineticist be better at dealing damage than a fire type mage; After all he is even more focused on it than even a fire elemental bloodline sorcerer.
Don't let the aerokinetist just fly (as the spell); make him fly faster than a wizard because after all that's HIS hyperfocus.
A geokineticist should be a veritable mountain of defence, not looking jealously at a wizard that is laughing at him while stacking mirror image (air), fire shield (fire), emergency force sphere (aether) and stoneskin (earth).

EDIT: This is how it FEELS when reading through the playtest and comparing kineticist builds with a variety of builds from other classes. I might be slightly panicking since this class would open up soooo much unplayable concepts for me if done right. I'll try to get actual game time in and I hope my fears are unwarranted.

Any update on the talented bestiary? Go Dark Mistress go!

I'm beginning to think that a force damage blast should be available for Aether at 1st lvl. Then you can have a more focused blast dealing more force damage (or force + another type) when you take a composite blast later.

I really really really would like my kamehame... I mean force blast :) Any updates on a line form talent? Or an expensive way to combine form talents? Line + Extreme range force blast for way too much burn... but just so cool!

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Mergy has a good point.

Something else I note when reading through the talents is that the different effects come in very late (like KINETIC FORM requiring lvl 10, GREATER KINETIC FORM requiring lvl16,...). How about we lower the prerequisites to the same lvl a wizard gets to do these things but add some burn, like so:

Element air, earth, fire, or water; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 7th
You can call forth your element and infuse it into your entire body. You gain elemental qualities of a type of elemental that matches any of the elements you possess as if by casting elemental body I. When reaching kineticist lvl 9, by accepting 2 additional points of burn, until the next time you recover burn, whenever you use kinetic form, you can instead gain the benefits of elemental body II. When using kinetic form, you never gain the earth glide, whirlwind, or vortex abilities. When you reach kineticist lvl 10, the burn cost to use kinetic form is lowered by 1.

This way you get access to your tools the same lvl as normal casters but they cost burn to prevent at will from becoming too OP.

The problem with an item like amulet of mighty fists but for wild blasts but not EXACTLY amulet of mighty fists is that a kineticist who also likes his kinetic fists has no way to both boost their wild blasts and unarmed strikes at the same time.

Perhaps an addendum to wild blasts which notes that effects that add an enhancement bonus to unarmed strike also affect wild blasts is in order? That way an amulet of mighty fists can affect both wild blasts and unarmed strikes of a kineticist. Given the cost of the item I don't think this will be problematic. This can also open up things like magic fang affecting wild blasts (which IMHO sounds like a natural fit).

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Something akin to a ranger combat style could be incredibly useful as well, and because it doesn't directly impact wild blasts should not make the kineticist too powerful.

I was also thinking about such a division but it would be a nightmare to balance.

I'm more and more beginning to think that some kind of enhanced melee ability should be baked into the class from level 1. Maybe not kinetic blade but perhaps a lesser version of kinetic fists?

Fire could indeed have a bludgeoning physical damage type wild blast, representing small concussive blows or explosions created.

No Jiggy and Williamoak, you are not alone. Void powers ahoy!

I'd also like a bit more support for kineticists who like to mix things up in melee, as well as more shaping talents (for example line effects). Perhaps also a way to combine more shaping or infusions at the same time (at the cost of burn)?

This class also feels like it should be able to go nova when things go dire, momentarily delivering a bigger nuke than even meteor swarm (at high levels) and then going into coma :p Sadly now I find a sorcerer or wizard is better at blasting (even if their damage dealing is not at will) AND have access to a way better toolbox of other spells. Maybe this can somehow be solved by screwing back the at will damage progression of the blasts and add some kind of resource system that will allow to blast at least on par with dedicated arcane casters for a few rounds?

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WARNING: Wall of text incoming!

First off, I really like the kineticist. It is easily the most liked class from this playtest (for me; and if I look at the size of the different threads it seems I'm not the only one).

After building a few characters, and comparing to some other class builds I have a few remarks (note that most of these are already posted in this thread from what I've read):

- Another vote for 'Geo' instead of 'Terra' (Which could be reserved for a wood themed elemental focus)
- Skill ranks: 2+INT for a class that will (in practice) dump int is really not much. Even more so for a class that is really really combat focused. I can only hope that the fighter will be handled in Unchained but I'd advocate for at least an increase to 4+INT/ 6+INT might also be possible but might step on other classes' toes too much.
- Energy resistance/Immunity, Damage reduction and Wild Blasts: One problem I foresee is the inability to pierce resistance/immunity for elemental damage wild blasts. On other accounts, damage reduction might be a problem. True a kinetisist can diversify his damage types a bit but only starting at lvl7 and even then it leaves a lot to be desired. My suggestions are as follows:
* All elemental foci have two wild blasts available; one elemental in nature, a second physical in nature. Elementals would have fire/electricity/cold/acid/force damage and would be ranged touch attacks. Physical blasts would be normal ranged attacks and have piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. In addition, the kineticist automatically learns both blasts. This way any type of kineticist can decide to specialise in his physical blast or his elemental one but has the other as backup in case he finds himself in combat with a resisting opponent.
* Standardize wild blast damage (physical ones d8+CON mod, elemental ones (w/o force) d6+1/2 CON mod, force d4+1/2 CON mod; all increase by 1 die every 2 lvls)
- Burn mechanic: I feel like it's too much of a detriment (for not enough gain) to actually use burn in combat. Perhaps more gains (great active effects, more passive effects) from burn can be included? Also a way to recover from burn (in a limited fashion) after a combat might give more incentive to actually use burn more regularly.

Below are some ideas on how to improve the kinetist/fix the above problems:

Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
As a full round action you can reduce your current burn by one point. The nonlethal damage resulting from this removed burn point can then be healed normally. This talent can be used a number of times each day equal to your 3 + CON modifier.

Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 4; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 7th
You automatically reduce any energy resistance of the target by 10 with your wild blast or kinetic fist or kinetic blade.

Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 6; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 11th, PIERCING ELEMENT
As piercing element but you automatically reduce energy resistance by 20. Alternatively, a creature or object targeted with energy immunity instead counts as having energy resistance 40. This resistance is not further reduced by this talent.

Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
By accepting one burn, as a swift action you can empower your kinetic abilities. For one minute your wild blast as well as any kinetic fist or kinetic blade talent receives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter this bonus is increased by one (to a maximum of +5 at lvl 15).

Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
You unleash the power of your inner soul. By accepting any number of burn (limited by your normal maximum each round) as a swift action, you temporarily gain a +2 morale bonus to constitution for each burn accepted (in effect the temporary HP gained from this CON bonus cancels the nonlethal damage inflicted by the burn). In addition, for each burn accepted you also gain a +1 to every damage die rolled for your wild blast, kinetic fists or kinetic blade. These benefits last for a number of rounds equal to the number of burn accepted. It is possible to increase your wrath over several turns, adding more and more burn, both increasing the effect in power and duration. At the end of the duration of the effect, you lose the morale bonus to constitution and suffer the full consequences of the burn accepted.

These are only a few ideas for new talents (perhaps some deserve to be built in the class itself).

*EDIT: changed a few wording issues*

This is a possible example of how this would look in practice. Note that I did not crosscheck with all other veils so the actual effects could be UP or OP. However, it could give an idea of what is possible:

Radiance of the Sun
Descriptors: Fire
Class: Vizier
Slot: Hands , Head , Wrists
Saving Throw: Reflex half
You direct your gaze at enemies, shooting two fiery beams from your eyes.
As a standard action, the wearer of this Veil can launch twin fiery beams that combine as one 30 feet line attack. Any creature in the area takes 1d6 fire damage.
Essence: For each point of Essence invested in this ability increase the fire damage dealt by 1d6. When using this ability, you can burn essence to increase the fire damage dealt by 2d6 for each essence burned. These two effects stack but the sum of invested and burned essence can never exceed the capacity of the chakra receptacle.
Chakra Bind (Hands):[ V2] Binding this Veil to your Hands slot allows you to form an orb of fire and throw it instead of firing beams from your eyes. The area changes to a 5 ft. spread with a range of 100ft and all damage dice change to d8’s. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the radius of the spread by 5 ft.
Chakra Bind (Head):[ V6] Binding this Veil to your Head slot allows you to focus your mind on the attack, allowing you to project fiery death at a great distance. The attack changes to a 50ft. line and all damage dice change to d8’s. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the line of effect by 20ft.
Chakra Bind (Wrists):[ V8] Binding this Veil to your Wrists slot unlocks the most powerful but also most dangerous effect of this veil. By guiding pure akashic energy through your body and directing it out of your arms, the attack deals force damage instead of fire damage. The attack also changes to a 50ft. line. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the line of effect by 20ft. For each point of essence burned when activating this ability increase the damage dealt by 3d6 instead of 2d6. This raw influx of akashic power takes its toll on you however: for each essence burned this way, you take 1d6 untyped damage yourself.

Note that you could also have veils that only increase their effect by burning and not by investing (such burn effects would have to be almost spell-like in power to make them worthy of using). Essence burning veils could also be very thematic for Guru and Daevic (especially for Daevic if they also have a self damaging effect).

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After reading through the playtest documents, I noticed a lack of longer ranged and/or AOE nukes for the Vizier. I know that for at will abilities these could get out of hand quickly but could such new veils be balanced by a 'burn essence on use' mechanic, perhaps reusing the Guru's essence burning mechanic?

I might have missed some discussions on this subject so forgive me if I'm asking things already asked x times :-)

IF these maps are still available..


Just starting seven spears and any help is welcome to salvage that trainwreck :p

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Axial wrote:
Does the Harbinger have a class feature which enables him to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL?


Comes with corresponding glowy eyes.

I'm not comparing specific builds. I was assuming this thread was about comparing all sorts of characters on the general topic of dex vs str? Barbarians, gishes of all forms and flavours (inquisitors, bards, dragon disciples, eldritch knights,...), monks, slayers, rangers,... One of the things talked about on and on is that dex-to-damage somehow 'endangers' the DPR of str builds. I'm seeing no evidence tbh. Not from reading the books and not from actual play (both actually playing dex and str chars and witnessing them see play).

To elaborate on my examples:
- A str monk or sacred fist can take dragon style... there is no equivalent for a dex monk.
- A barbarian's rage is more performing than an urban barbarian's.
- A sorcerer dragon disciple gish has str boosts but no (easy) access to dex boosts (and dragon disciple doesn't increase dex anyway).
- An eldritch knight gish has access to all sorts of varied str transformations but no good access to dex buffs (as most decrease your size and thus your combat performance).
- A str fighter with a greatsword has better damage output than a dex fighter with an elven curve blade due to no 1.5 times stat to damage.
- Any str user has easy access to enlarge person (gulp... that potion hit the spot); there is no equivalent for dex users. You have of course bull's strength vs cat's grace so at least there is parity there.
- For the bloodlines; once again the fact that it requires feats has no meaning. The point is there is no EQUIVALENT choice for dex users.

Those are the differences I'm talking about.

I'm aware most of the options I listed require an investment. Making investments is what the game is sort of all about. Having the option to make an investment to increase your damage output is better than having no option at all.

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In my personal experience dex-to-damage builds are somewhat more jack of all trades. They do ok in skills and ok in combat. Str-to-damage builds rock in combat but out of combat just clean their swords and do nothing (or swim in a pond or something).

But hey scorpioni, a dex character can have as high a dex as a strength character has strength, thus dealing the same damage with higher AC?

Not correct:
As displayed multiple times in this thread alone, the initial higher AC from dex characters is mostly bypassed by higher armor of str characters due to the max dex bonus of armors (sometimes as soon as lvl3 hits).

As for damage:
- Rage (urban barbarian can have the same damage upgrade but the downsides don't make it viable)
- Dragon disciple untyped boosts
- Abbyssal / Orc bloodline (either sorcerer or eldritch heritage feats; better than reading the dex books by a mile)
- Enlarge Person (THE workhorse of the low level martial)
- Monstrous Physique / Form of the dragon (up to +10(!) size bonus to str, yes please).
- No 1,5 damage bonus for THW
- Dragon style + Dragon ferocity
- ...

The list goes on...

What are the options for the dex user to increase damage in ways the str user cannot?
I know of elemental body and that's about it....

Conclusion for me: Dex-to-damage ain't broken, hell it doesn't even compare. If you want to be the king of combat, you're a Str-user.

Don't get me wrong, I love dex characters with dex to damage! But before play even begins I reconcile with the fact I'll never be the DPR machine unless I'm the only martial in the group.

I must say, if the mystic is the 'supernatural aspected' initiator as opposed to the more 'mundane' warlord, I'm greatly interested and highly anticipate the new material! :D

Insain Dragoon, thanks for the information. Is the Mystic already in playtest? You say most discplines don't require specific weapons but I assume they have an additional effect with the specific weapon? Are there any disciplines dedicated to unarmed strike (or close weapons)?

Thanks in advance!

Pondering to buy the book(s). From what I've read this seems like a worthy successor to 9swords (which I loved).

One question though. Is there a discipline (planned or already implemented) focussing on unarmed strikes and energy based attacks (or perhaps even force damage)? I'd like my hadoken, kamehameha and machinegun KI attacks now plz :)

We require more vespe.. euhm... more information.

Are there any spoilers or teases you want to share yet? :p

Take a look at the Guide archetype. It's similar to Freebooter but different :p

Orc or Abbyssal are always decent heritage bloodlines for a Str user, but maybe not for a sneaky type (especially Orc bloodline).

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Another dark mistress vote for further along the line!

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