Iron Dragon

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I am saddened by the lack of answers after 9 days, and myself have the same inquiry.

I've been reading and re-reading this for nearly two hours...

This is the conclusion I've reached (and if anyone has proof to the contrary, please provide!)

Action: Standard (all wild talents are unless specified otherwise, and this isn't)

Range: Determined by the effect generated. Example: "An area with a radius of CR × 10 feet becomes utterly dark, as if from a deeper darkness spell." which leads me to think it's argument 2, as it says "an area" - implying the area can be decided. There are two arguments to be made;
--- 1) It's centered on the user, but the user can (or must) omit themselves, as they are effectively the source.
--- 2) The center can be placed in accordance with your max blast range, as many other wild talents with range can be improved by range wild talents.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, your max blast range makes the most sense. It clearly should not be "any area that you can see" - as that defies all other abilities, and doesn't even list a range boost talent as a requirement. I'm standing by: "Created up to as far away as you could target with your blast" sorta range

The duration is either instantaneous, or specified by the effect.
As it's generated by you, on demand as an Aether Kinetic, it forces the event rather than creating a zone.

Further, the list presented is generic. Even calls itself a sample.
If you and your GM feel there are things better fitting Aether, can adjust.

That's my two coppers, and the result of hours. Heh

Righty right right.

The part that made me think it works, us that you add the enhancement bonus to the attack roll, and the other things are enhancement equivalent, hence the "If you'd add one, why not the other?"

(Shame too - the idea of a having an acid spell drop a die of fire for a burn, or d6 cold on a ray of enfeeblement are thematically great, and don't seem to break anything)

Parallel thought...
Would you instead add the full enhancement equivalent? Because, you know, equivalent? Like if it was +3 Flaming Burst, would you add +5 to your hit roll because Flaming Burst is invalid?

I'm surprised my searches haven't seemed to yield (in the first several Google pages) amnanswer to a thought I had - and the ability entry doesn't really cover it.

Slinger lets you fire the gun OR cast a spell THROUGH the gun. Pretty straight forward.

Spell gains weapon's enhance to hit. Cool.
Spell gets weapon's enhance to Save DC. Cool.

Mage Bullets let's you burn a spell to boost that enhancement, or add special qualities.

This is where my question enters.

If you give the gun a special property, say, Shock... Would the spell cast/fired _through_ the gun gain that +1d6 Electric?

The firearm boosts your crit multiplier (if one gun), and uses it's +hit for this to-hit. Stands to reason the spell would gain it too, right?

At least, I believe the spell would IF the spell cast through it requires an attack roll, considering a ranged weapon imparts its bonus on anything fired out of it.

I don't think it would apply to burning hands or fireball (no attack roll), but Scorching Ray perhaps?

I find it odd that the text does not specifically cover this as an absolute yes or no. I as a long-time GM have been bouncing this idea in my head all day. I feel it's reasonable and plausible, but it bugs me to not have an official yes or no.


Forgot Glitterdust - but yeah.
You'd think there would be several more choices.

As the title says... Is this power actually useless?

I love the class, but once I re-read this entry, I face-palmed.

Based on invested mental focus, it increases your effective caster level for Conjuration Spells measure in rounds-per-level, for the purposes of duration only.

At a glance, that sounds great!
What's that? Mage Armor can be 2 hours at 1st level? Sweet!
Wait. ROUNDS per level spells only... OK, so which ones are there?

There... aren't any?

Correction. By level 10, there's ONE: Major Creation.
Even then, that's only for rare metal items.

Literally everything else I'm seeing before measure in 1-minute, 10-minute, 1-hour, or 2-hour increments.

What am I missing here? I have to be missing something here.

G.Arcantos wrote:

We decided to go with Bolt Ace + weapon master. Kineticist was a pretty strong contender but my friend isn't *that* good with rules and that class is dense! Same principle applied to most spellcasters too.

Thanks everyone for the help and the great ideas!

Totally understandable! My current game, we have a person that has been playing for 5 or so years now, and he's running a Geokinetic... but... he's still stumbling through playing it and needing to recheck things. This is largely because he's usually not bothering to learn anything about it when we're not sitting at the table - but he's a father of two, so I completely understand his limited ability (though I do poke him for not using the off-week as we're every-other).

Either way - glad you found something that works!

Ahh, Samsaran... The race almost every caster player I know wants to be.

Huh. SRD tricked me, I guess. That, and my own eyes.
Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting: 09/2008
Pathfinder Core Rulebook: 08/2009
Thought it came out a month after, not a year prior. Whoops!

Faith Magic would be interesting for an EK of the same theory. I'm not sure where the Magaambyan Archetype is from, but I did check the PrC, though it seems to only give the GOOD domain itself - though still neat.

So unfortunately, it will need to be GM fiat - though I'm certain my group(s) would be OK with it. I'll probably stay completely Warpriest and seek permission due to omission. Looking to be a NG Warpriest of Erastil, Community & Good blessings, Archery/Vital Strike with Combat Advice and limited heal/buff at distance with Greater Status. A very "we are each other's strength" type.


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QuidEst wrote:
Kineticist. To use weapons, go with aether for the element- you can launch those toothpicks hard enough to break through doors eventually, or just launch nearby boulders. Once you hit level seven (moreso level 11), you'll be doing less damage than other elements, but until then, it's good.

Oh man - go Geokinetic, and max out Disguise! Get enough burn, and you can pretend to be an Ioun Stone on another player!

I know, I know, it's ludicrous - but I just had to share that image.

That being said... Yeah, I think Kineticist might be a great option either way, as the damage doesn't rely on size, and could give you an interesting mix of things. Telekinetic would give lots of amusing options, though Geo would provide a variety of damage types and defenses. Though personally, I'd go with with either Air or Void. A super small gravity manipulator sounds like a lot of fun - but I'd have to resist naming them Singularity, or Sing to their friends.

Good day, Pathfinders!

I've got a few ideas rolling around my head, but I'm having trouble gluing them together, so-to-say.
My knowledge of Pathfinder things is by no means shallow, but I know there are plenty here far greater than my own, so I turn to the collective.

Rather than detail the would-be character, let me layout my goal.

Trying to access Sacred Weapon & Domain Spells - in a non-3P way.

Ideally, I'd love to stay Full20 on the Warpriest, so if anyone knows of a way to access Domain Spells as one, that would be great! Their blessings are nice, but Greater Status can only be obtained via the Community domain (as far as I know), and that spell is PERFECT for the concept. I know that most GM would be willing to let you take it anyway, considering how isolated it is, but I'm trying to find a BTB way.

I know that Fighters can get Sacred Weapon damage scaling through alternate Weapon Training options, but that wouldn't kick in until 9th, and even with an Eldritch Knight-eque option for Divine Caster, access to the magic would take a long time.

That got me thinking of other options/combinations that may fit the character well, so as a bonus inquiry: Anyone have a summary of classes/archetypes that can take a Domain?

I'm guessing feat-wise...
1) Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike -- As you'll be relying on actual unarmed strikes to land your damage.
2) Toughness -- Twofold: First, helps if you need to eat burn. Second, you'll be up-front, so HP is good.
3) Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast -- Will benefit Kinetic Whip (if you choose to take it) and/or standard blasts, when you need them.
4) Two Weapon Fighting -- If you bump Dex a point for it. This will get you more out of Kinetic Fist. (Otherwise, Iron Will?)

As a 7th level character, your blast would be 4d6.
That means Kinetic Fist would only add 1d6 to your unarmed attack (1 per 3 dice it normally deals, minimum 1d6).

I like the flavor of this talent, but feel it's more painful to use than Kinetic Blade. (losing 2/3 your blast damage).
This makes me think there's probably some Archetype ordered that gives you Flurry of Blows -- Can't think why else it would do this.

As for equipment... Amulet of Mighty Fists or Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes?
With TWF -- Amulet.(16k) Either +2 for your unarmed, or +1 and Shocking (for an extra d6 electric).
W/O TWF -- Body Wrap. (12k) As above (either +2 or +1 & Shocking)

That's my at-a-glance suggestion. If anything else comes to mind, I'll let you know.

Belt of Physical Might +2 (STR/CON) (10k - Total 22k-26k) -- More HP, more hit/damage.

Cloak of Resistance +2 (4k -- total 26k-30k)

Chain Shirt +2 (4k -- Total 30k-34k -- +1 if Amulet of Mighty Fists)

Ring of Protection +1 (2k -- Would be 32k with Wrap, less with +1 Mighty Fists).

Assuming the wrap, you'd have AC 19 (18 with Amulet) before possible defensive buffs.
HP would be OK -- Ability to land your Unarmed Strikes would have better odds.

That's my at-a-glance suggestion. If anything else comes to mind, I'll let you know.
(EDIT: You get your Talents as indicated on the level chart. They're staggered odd like that, instead of set pattern, due to ability acquisition if I understand Mark right, so 1/2/4/6/7/8/10/12/14/15/16/18/20)

OK, so this might seem weird to some people, but quite often a character concept will hit me while I'm listening to music.
Sometimes the words have something to do with it (though not often) and sometimes it's just my mind playing a mini-movie with the concept.
Either way, I've had some fantastic character concepts via this method, both for those I've played and NPCs.

Today's offender? -- "The Pretender" by Infected Mushroom (a Foo Fighters cover), off their 2012 album Army of Mushrooms. (check it on YouTube if curious)
They've got a weird name, but are my newest music addiction, and I think they're fantastic - but that's not the point.

Just doing other stuff, this song rolls onto my playlist. ...and into my mind, rolls a BA Magma Kineticist. Very tanky. Very up-close-and-personal.
The kind of person that, when the party decides to try and run, insists on staying behind to delay the foe for their safety. "I'll make them pay for every gods-forsaken step they take."

OK brain - Challenge Accepted! But how to do it?
(Please Note: When I think like this, optimization isn't really the goal - more making the concept at least slightly viable)

So considering the character, let's assume stats 14/14/16/10/10/10 (20pt buy) BEFORE racial anything.

Human seems like the understandably standard choice. Stats 14/14/18/10/10/10.
Hobgoblin... Could be both Stat advantageous, and provide interesting story flavor. Stats 14/16/18/10/10/10.

Figure 8th Level for the full initial effect.

Feats/Talents Etc by Level:
1st) Weapon Focus: Blast, Element (Earth), Talent: Kinetic Blade
2nd) Talent: Extended Range
3rd) Toughness
4th) CON +1, Talent: Kinetic Cover
5th) Point Blank Shot, Infusion Spec: Form, Metakinesis: Empower
6th) Talent: Impale
7th) Extra Talent: Entangle, Talent: Expanded Element (Fire)
8th) CON +1, Infusion Spec: Substance, Talent: Expanded Defense (Fire)(with intent to get Ride the Blast for crazy gap close)

Humoring a Hobgoblin named "Shard" with, with Intimidate alternate racial, and average WBL...
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16k), Menacing AOMF (4k - Thanks Mark!), Chain Shirt +3 (9k), Ring of Protection +1 (2k), Cloak of Resistance +1 (2k) = 33k and the exact WBL total.

Shard, the Hobgoblin Geothermal Kineticist:
HP: 107 (8 from 1st level, 35 Lv 2-8, 8 Toughness, 48 Con, 8 favored class)
STR: 16 -- DEX: 18 -- CON: 22 -- INT: 10 -- WIS: 10 -- CHA: 10
FORT: +13 -- REF: +11 -- WILL: +3 (ouch - might want Iron Will and/or a trait bonus)

Blast/Blade Breakdown:
Earth Blast: Up to 120ft (0 Burn), +11[+13] (4d6+10[+12])
Earth Blade: Melee only (0 Burn), +10/+5[+12/+7] (4d6+10[+12]) with an extra +4 hit if flanking.
Fire Blast: Up to 120ft (0 Burn), +11[+13] vs. Touch (4d6+3[+5])
Fire Blade: Melee only (0 Burn), +10/+5[+12/+7] (4d6+3[+5]) with an extra +4 hit if flanking.
Magma Blast: Up to 120ft (2 Burn), +11[+13] (8d6+14[+16])
Magma Blade (How cool is that?!): Melee Only (2 Burn), +10/+5[+12/+7] (8d6+14[+16]) with an extra +4 hit if flanking.
([]s are with Feel the Burn +2. None of these account for Point Blank.)

Impale: +12[+14] to hit a 30ft line for 4d6+10[12]. Costs 1 burn (0 with Gather)

Earth Blast can entangle for 0 burn with a gather, Magma can entangle for 2 burn with a gather.
Magma Blade can single attack for 1 burn with Gather.
Earth/Fire blade can get +50% damage on both attacks for 1 burn, or on one attack for no burn with gather.

A (melee type) with 18 STR up to 20 with a belt, a +2 Greatsword, and both Weapon Focus feats as well as weapon spec, would have +18/+13 to hit for 2d6+12 or +15/+10 to hit for 2d6+21 with Power Attack.

Considering the semi-morphic nature of the Kineticist's options, I feel like these are acceptable differences.

Fighter Max, Power Attack: +15/+10 for 23-33 (1 hit) or 46-66 (2 hits)
Kinetic with Earth Blast: +10 for 14-34 or 22-52 with Empower, no burn.
Kinetic with Fire Blast: +10 vs. Touch for 7-27 or 9-39 with Empower, no burn.
Kinetic with Magma Blast: +10 for 26-66 (1 burn) or 34-94 with Empower(2 burn).

Doesn't sound super impressive, but does sound good enough, and when you take into account the defenses...

While it would be pretty awesome to have hybrid elemental forms (such as magma), and/or the ability to treat the "form" as basically an boosted sense of Feel the Burn's visual rather than turning into an elemental (such as with Bracers of Falcon's Aim), I'm digging the Earth/Fire defense together.

Far as I can tell, there's nothing saying you can't have both defenses up at once - they just take their respective actions, so two turns.
Round 1) Move up, blast as appropriate, trigger Earth Defense for DR 4/Adamantine.
Round 2) Close gap (can you trigger Kinetic Blade on a charge?), Blast/Swing as appropriate, trigger Fire Defense for 1d8 backlash.

Thematically, you'd look like you were rocking Magma Armor.

I don't think this character is optimal at all... but damn do I love the feel!

This is the part where I ask for feedback on the thought.
I'd prefer to avoid negative stats - so with that in mind, any thoughts on how to make it more effective without taking too much (if any) away?
For a while, I was toying with the idea of of a few levels in a martial class for some bonus armor and combat tricks.

What would you change? What would you add?
Would you consider dipping a full BAB class, and if so, what and why?

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Regarding OP's "Everything Burns" (all potential Pyros want something like this!);
I like this, but I was thinking more along the lines of the old Searing Spell Metamagic feat.

Specifically, I was thinking of a means that would not (under normal circumstances) be able to pair with Pure Flame.
Bypassing Res/Immunity AND SR seems like it would be too juicy.

What I spun was:
Element: Fire; Type: Substance Infusion; Level: 6; Burn: 3
Prerequisite: Kineticist level 10th
Associated Blasts: Fire, Blue Flame, Magma, Plasma, Steam (other +Fire as revealed)

Drawing from the very origin of flame, your blasts take on a metaphysical quality, becoming far more intense than nature would allow. Seeming more maroon or even violet in color, these blasts flicker with an eerie light that illustrates well their unnatural state.
This blast ignores Fire Resistance. Creatures with the the Cold subtype take double damage (+100% rather than +50%). Even creatures with Fire Immunity still take half damage (1/4 on a successful save if allowed).

Also, while I'm here, I'll throw out couple that I really just want for flavor...

"Aether Juggling"
Element: Aether; Type: Substance Infusion; Level: 3; Burn: 1
Prerequisite: Kinetic Blade, Kineticist level 5th
Associated Blasts: Telekinetic

With finer manipulation of aether, you are able to strike more precisely. When using your Telekinetic Blast to throw a magical weapon, your blast benefits from any enhancement bonuses the weapon may have, as well as special qualities it may possess. You do not gain the weapon's base damage, nor it's threat range or critical hit multiplier. If this weapon has the Returning property, and was held before being used for this blast, it returns to you as normal for a Returning weapon.

"Aether Dancing"
Element: Aether; Type: Substance Infusion; Level: 5; Burn: 2
Prerequisite: Kineticist level 8th, Aether Juggling, Kinetic Blade
Associated Blasts: Telekinetic

By using a weapon as the focus for your Telekinetic Blast, the weapon can be further "animated" to fight in your stead at a distance. This Substance infusion allows you to use the full attack action with a blast infused weapon, at a maximum range equal to that of your blast (including any Form infusions that increase range). This blast acts in all other ways like Aether Juggling, except non-proficiency penalties apply when a weapon is used in this manner.

(I'm sure any of these could use some re-wording, but you get the ideas)

My last post in this thread was fearful of the outcome and somewhat emotion driven.
One GM previously banned the Warlock class because it was effectively infinite - years later, summoner's 50/50 ban - especially the Synthesist archetype (100% ban from the games of the one guy I feel could do the concept story justice) - killing one of the more interesting concepts I've had, because people abused the crud out of it. My past GM discretion as odd as it is, I was/am having some mild PTSD regarding these two things possibly repeating themselves in a Kineticist.

I am (probably) just going to sit back and see where it goes after this post, to avoid more of my previous.

As a final hurrah, my compiled suggestions/thoughts:

1) They should get Weapon Focus: Blast for free at first. Not a single respectable Kinetic will pass on this, so why make them burn a feat for it?

2) The ability for each Kineticist to effectively shape their element entirely (as in First Sculptor but with greater capacity for misc. flavor) feels like a must.

3) Would be nice if Aether users could get a Substance Infusion that let them use the thrown item's properties for damage at least (if not hit) and misc effects, boosted by the kinetic force - probably not threat range though, because throwing Scimitar would become brutal. Could make for some interesting use of the "Returning" property, add a lot of flavor, and give them a little something it feels like they're lacking in comparison.

4) Aether - Kinetic Haul: Hits one target for standard blast damage despite weight/size of object thrown... It just doesn't sit right with me. This conflicting data makes me twitch.

Mark Seifter - I have total faith in you that this will become the class you (and many others) want it to be. I'm bowing out for now.
I salute you, and look forward whatever revision (if any) there may be to the PT docs (and if there aren't any I'll eagerly await the book).

There are two conclusions I have reached so far via this class and this thread (beside liking it):
1) The class could use 4+Int skill points, and a boost on to-hit with blast - though how is uncertain.
2) When people get upset that the burn mechanic exists, I feel like a good portion of them don't actually like the class as a concept, and instead are looking for something they can crack open like an egg - because burn presents a good means to prevent that. Is burn a good thing? No, and it's not supposed to be - but it is an interesting and unique way to handle something like this. Unique is good. If the burn mechanic makes you hate this class, then clearly this class isn't for you. There are plenty of other options that can be bent to whatever GM-twitch-inducing purpose you want. =P

This is just my opinion based interpretation. I just hope people can be reasonable, and let the limitation exist. It must.
I don't need another class getting banned from games, PFS or otherwise (I'm looking at Summoner - particularly Synthesist).

AlanDG2 wrote:
Did you give the Kineticist equal access to items?

I'm guessing even if they didn't, it gives a lot more misc. item room.

For example, the (Combat Type of Choice) invests in a +7 equivalent weapon. Great for them.
You, on the other hand, could get a belt for +6 Con/Dex with 8k to spare from the same amount.

Taenia wrote:

So if kinetic blade isn't the weapon what weapon focus do you take? Do you take weapon focus kinetic blast and it works with all variations? Do you take itwith specific blasts?

I assume that feats that apply to weapons like focus, spec or improved crit would not apply to a kinetic blade in the form of that weapon.

Well, my statement hasn't been corrected by anyone yet, so I'm guessing my assessment was right:

Kinetic Blade + Kinetic Whip are just shaped blasts (Form infusion). Per the description, they take the form, but regardless of what weapon they emulate (or enhance in the case of TKs), the representative item is meaningless beyond flavor: "You form a weapon using your kinesis ... of pure energy or elemental matter ... The weapon deals the same damage as your Kinetic Blast's damage, and interacts with AC and Spell Resistance as normal for a blast of its type."

The Kinetic Blade or Whip - as pushed by text and driven by the fact that you're using a FORM infusion - IS your blast.
You do not have an actual weapon. You have a blast. That you're using like a weapon.

Weapon Focus: Whip wouldn't apply, because while it acts like a whip, it is actually your kinetic blast you are condensing and shaping for an alternative use. Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast would apply to anything where-in you're using your Kinetic Blast's stats (Interacting with AC/DR/SR), regardless of form - the sole exception of which is Kinetic Fist, because it specifically relies on your Unarmed Strikes / Natural Weapons, much like the Flaming or Shocking weapon properties, but stronger (Kinetic Fist also specifically says it ignores SR and receives none of your blast damage modifiers such as Con).

Taenia wrote:

How does the Allying weapon property interact with Kinetic Blade?

Can you use Kinetic Cover for horizontal planes or just vertical, or push one over? Can you stack the wall on top of another?

If the kinetic blade is a monk weapon can you flurry with it?

When putting on shroud of water can i encase myself in a block of ice and shatter it coming out in ice armor?

How and what can a kineticist retrain?

Kinetic Blade isn't an actual weapon, so it can't be enchanted to have any weapon mods (if that's what you meant by Allying?).

(EDIT: Looked it up. Good question! I'm guessing no, because it isn't an actual weapon, but it IS solid for a while... Very good question!)

Kinda wondered too if it must be affixed to something, or if you could create like, a sheet above you.

Kinetic blade resembles an applicable weapon, but is not said weapon, and uses none of its mechanics. Not even with Aether. You use your blast damage, it's always 20/x2 (unless you have Imp Crit for your blast), and none of your weapon properties apply. I know this has been tagged at least a few times in the thread.

Unless you somehow found a way to make "Kinetic Blast" a Monk weapon - not simply LOOK like a monk weapon - then I'm going to go with no. I'm guessing this idea is why they created Kinetic fist.

As for retraining - never used it in any of my games (never had a need).
No idea, and I don't think it was covered previously, so good question!

Cao Phen wrote:

With the ability to use Weapon Focus for the Kinetic Blast, Blade, or Whip. do you have to select a Weapon Focus for each, or does Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast) covers all three?

For the Kinetic Blade creating a weapon, do you get the Weapon's Critical Threat Range/Multiplier, or is it just simply 20/x2 due to using the Kinetic Blast damage?

My understanding (per all the previous), is that a Kinetic Blast is a Kinetic Blast, and all Blade/Whip do, is shape or solidify it (hence the temporary nature). By this, weapon focus would I think apply to Blast/Blade/Whip, but I'm not 100% on Fist.

As for getting the created weapon's threat, as above, I can say with certainty: No.
It resembles such a weapon, but is still actually your blast made manifest.
Though (again as above), if you took Improved Crit: Kinetic Blast, it should in theory work for Blast/Blade/Whip.

graystone wrote:

I like it with the assumption that it's added to the blasts cost and can be reduced. For example, I gather energy then toss a normal blast with bonus to hit = no burn taken. I'd also make the second one a normal adition instead of an immediate action. I'd want to add that to a normal blast so I could reduce that 1 burn cost with gathering energy.

I'm also thinking about an effect like the Flagellant. Instead of all that nonlethal damage bringing you closer to a KO, it takes you closer to a detrimental effect. I'd rather not see 'taxing' as laying down on the ground but taking penalties.

Huh. Apparently in my edit for wording, I pulled that part.

The reason I used the whole "by increasing the burn cost of a kinetic blast" was to make it so the move action could eat that point.

If you made the second one a "normal" action...? Like a standard action? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
The second one was meant to be defensive, reactive, to your native element, showing an affinity for dealing with it. Wouldn't make sense as a standard action.
Reactive costs you burn. Anticipating such an attack, you can effectively ready your move action to cut the burn by 1.

I think allowing them to boost their to-hit and cut a defense cost in the same round would be entirely too good.

Cao Phen wrote:
How would the Feat, Endure Pain, would work with Burn?

Already answered, but I was thinking, maybe I'm wrong on how I interpret the non-lethal?

How I read the non-lethal from burn, it's tracked like damage, but isn't actual damage. You just sort of receive a buffer. More a sense of drain, rather than a smash to the face.

On a side, I kinda like Flagellant being an evil-inclined feat structure. Can help build a better Kineticist villain... Heh heh heh.

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Heladriell wrote:

I too like the idea of burn, but not the actual mechanics.

-Burning one's own life cannot be the first resource of the class. It should exist but with a safe zone first. Self inflicted damage every day just to do your regular job sucks.
-At the end of "that battle" when every other option is down and things aren't going well, that's the moment to use burn. At exceptionally challenging battles, when everything seem lost. Then it should have some major effect, with greatly enhanced attack, defense and capacity. The cost should come later, as the strain takes it's toll.
-I can think of separating the mechanics: a normal reserve for limited powers, something like 3+Con or 1/2 level+Con for each day. Then the burn, a state of over-channeling where the kineticist could ignore the point costs of power, having enhanced power, speed and defense, by taking burn damage each round. Something like rage from the barbarian, but that can actually kill the user. That would feel awesome.
-Every other class can do it's job without self inflicted damage, the kineticist should have the same benefit. Extra stuff can be there with a cost, but not it's regular activities. Remember that the characters are made to resemble people, and it can't make sense to create whole masochistic class.

I want to agree with everything you're saying, but I keep rubber-banding with the stuff Mark's been dropping.

Per Heladriell's:
1) With ways to reduce burn starting at 1st level (Move Action), unless poor decisions are made, you probably won't burn much unless by choice. I see burn as basically opening yourself as a conduit to whatever element, which is taxing (non-lethal) but has rewards (FtB). I want to defend it more, but at later levels you really need that +Hit from FtB to land things... I'm really torn here.

2) The concept of taking the effect after battle isn't really that much different, unless you only get in one fight a day, because that burn effects carry into every other encounter that day. The notion of at least your first fight "catching up to you after the adrenaline has faded" is pretty cool, like the more you pull from the element the more it pulls back, but it would feel more like a thematic change rather than a mechanic change.

3) I don't think I'd like this class nearly as much if they operated on a points-per-day system, though possible lethal intensity of Rage DOES seem awesome... Maybe this sort of Over-Channeling could be tied into an Archetype, where they can go so far their life is actually at risk? Also, separating mechanics might eat more precious page space.

4) I think you lost me here. Considering you can use a move to eat a point of burn right from level 1, I don't feel like you're force-fed burn for regular activities. The class isn't masochistic - it's draining. How many examples can you think of where a hero with a cool power decides to over-charge at a tax to themselves for a dramatic effect? I can think of a lot myself. I think the "Every other class" is what really lost me though - while the whole bender feel is a huge lure, I like most that it isn't like every other class. I'd prefer to keep it that way so it feels more like a branch of its own rather than the bark on another.

Somewhat hypocritically to my comment on #4, here's a thought.
What if the Kineticist had a couple baseline things they could spend burn toward, similar to a Monk's Ki, built into the Burn mechanic?

By increasing the burn cost of a Kinetic Blast by 1, you gain a bonus to hit equal to 1/2 your Kineticist level (Min +1).

When you would receive damage from an energy type you can generate with a blast, as an immediate action, you may accept 1 burn to gain Resistance to that energy equal to 3x your Kineticist level for 1 round.
You may instead provide this benefit to an ally within 30ft, though doing so inflicts 2 burn instead. By readying a move action in anticipation of such an attack, you may reduce this burn cost by 1 (minimum 0).

The +Hit option would scale them nicely without being overpowering, making them reliable along all 20 levels.
By using the Kinetic Blast wording, this would be completely inapplicable to Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, as to not break them, when they're thematically more for lower AC/Threat targets anyways.
Figure they'd have about +36 to hit once at Level 20 (+15 BAB, +10 for Burn Boost, +8 from Dex, +3 from Burn), which would be on-par with most Archer types.
You'd have a strong single hit, but Archers would still win in bulk (especially with Clustered Shots), and mages would still win the Area/Other game. This would feel like a comfortable in-between.
My only concern would be if my wish for an Aether Substance that allows you to use the thrown object's stats comes true... Then you'd stack on the +5 from a weapon, and break +40 to hit. (though still only 1 hit)

For the Resistance option - Would fit the flavor. Pyros could create a small rift in a fireball, Aeros could slightly bend a lightning bolt, etc.
This would also give Focused TKs something unique for their lack of a Kinetic Form option, in that they could gain very situational but awesome Force Resistance when they get access to their force blast.

The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel for +Hit/Resistance built into the Burn mechanic!

Artanthos wrote:
A useful spreadsheet I found.

That is SO useful to me as a GM, tailoring encounters based on party effectiveness! Thanks!

(I'm used to players rolling some crazy party composites)

Anyway, back to the Kineticist...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of people saying they need to eat "burn per encounter"...

If I'm reading this right, burn persists until the end of day, meaning if you've stored 6 burn from the previous fight (+2 hit / +2 damage), that is available straight from the start of your second encounter, right? I see nothing to contrast that.

So much hate on the attack value, but I totally understand the balance between the two.

Physical: (Lv/2+1)d6+1 + Con Mod damage. Say 3d6+9 at 5th, with +7 to hit (both with 3 burn), that ignores spell res but is subject to DR.
Total = 12-27 vs. AC and DR

Energy: (Lv/2+1)d6 + 1/2 Con mod damage. Same formula, +7 to hit touch, for 3d6+2.
Total = 5-20 vs. Touch and SR

That sounds reasonable to me. (both assume 3 burn for a +1/+1, a Con mod of +5 and Dex of +3)

If you could do something like Eldritch Knight with a Kinetic, that would be neat.
Confirm a crit with a blast, get a secondary quicken for no burn. Sounds good!
This could be an interesting compromise for those who want more BAB at the cost of wild talents. Expecting both is a bit much.
Blast goes up, but talents don't, and opens up a few fighter feats (Weapon Spec for starters).
I wonder if this wouldn't break the hell out of Kinetic Blade though.

The notion of boosting burn damage sounds reasonable at a glance.
Say... +2 per 3 burn, or for simpler math, +1 per 2 burn instead of 3.

Another suggestion I would make -- Give Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast as a bonus at class level 1.
Considering it will be on just about every feat list, why make them burn a feat for it? Feels like a forced play otherwise.

If available, could you take "Ability Focus: Kinetic Blast"?

Probably a lot of breaking potential, but what if you counted as a Fighter for combat feats, however those feats would only affect you Kinetic Blast?

I am very interested in what you have up your sleeve for this class, Mark.
Absolutely loving pretty much all of it so far. Even my few gripes aren't even gripes, more curiosities.

The one thing that I don't like - is having to wait so long for the book! Heh.

I'm thinking if the end result doesn't have a "Shape (Element)" option, though, I'll need to house rule something to that effect. Geo/Terra-forming steps in a mountain, parting a pool of water to find an object, clearing a safe spot in a storm, extinguishing or amplifying a natural fire...

But I can't think of anything a Telekinetic would get out of this that isn't already covered by Telekinetic Haul. (Which I love aside from the logic-loop of a 1k lb object only hitting one target for standard damage)

It's weird. This is a game I've been running nearly 2 years, but I'm hoping they actually finish it Saturday so I can have them play test these. I can make all the NPCs in the world, but it just won't be the same!

Must see them in ACTION!

AlanDG2 wrote:
Rageling wrote:

First is the near total lack of Substance infusions...

Substance Infusions include Burning Infusion, Chilling Infusion, Entangling Infusion, Pure Flame Infusion, Magnetic Infusion, Pressurized Blast Infusion, Pushing Infusion, and Rare Metal Infusion. I do note that many of these infusions seem to require combination blasts to function.

You'll note that my entire comment was based on the TELEKINETICIST (Aether), for which none of those Substance Infusions apply beyond "Pushing Infusion" as I mentioned. Combination blasts specifically do not make Aether suddenly qualify for them, unless you're referring to the Teamwork feat, in which case, we'll see.

Each infusion lists the specific blasts they can be applied to, and Telekinesis' one blast is incapable of any but Pushing.

On the flip-side, I'm not sure what I'd suggest for a substance infusion for Aether, so my comment isn't really constructive.

Maybe "Condensed Aether" -- "Your blast is so focused, it no longer requires an item to throw"? Or maybe one that will actually let you use the thrown item's properties? (I'm thinking a magic dagger with returning maybe in a bandolier of some sort?) TK using a thrown item's properties could be an interesting offset for lack of other Essence, AND give the party a use for all those random weapons they won't use... Heh.

(Edited mostly for spelling. Ugh.)

Some thoughts I had this morning. (Shortly after waking up? Yeah... It's that kind of Friday)

Per several others on the idea of utility, I started to consider what sort of things each element could do. My first thought went back Telekinetics with Telekinetic Finesse, then sideways to Geo/Terra: Would be neat if someone with the metal blast could essentially get Trapfinding vs. metal objects, with a bonus equal to their dice of damage, but might be too awkward. Then I started to think - Why can't a Geo/Terra dig a pit trap?

So then the bending concept. It would certainly be wonderful if each group could get a Wild Talent for "Shape (Element)" around mid levels. Particularly to mind comes things like Moses parting water (Hydro), someone creating a safe-zone in tornado or a clear zone in fog (Aero), smothering or redirecting or augmenting existing flames (Pyro), or creating stone steps up the side of an otherwise flat cliff face sorta like Toph did (Geo/Terra). This leaves me without an idea for Telekinetics, though, which I feel bad about considering they already lack an Elemental Form equivalent.

Maybe if TKs had some way to supercharge and existing force effect, teamwork style? Like... Add their (total - not roll) to someone else's Telekinesis Bullrush check? Or stack their dice onto a mage's Magic Missile?

Just a couple early thoughts.

I've been trying to wrap my thoughts around this for a bit, as I scroll through these 34 or so pages. At a core level, I love it - but my brain keeps throwing out ideas that seem just out of reach.

The skill point thing has been beaten into the tile like Loki, though I agree (they don't need more than 4+/Lv though).
Were there a Light/Shadow type to work with Stealth, that would be awesome, but hey - like you said, page count. Glad enough we're even getting this class!

I think the three things that bug me most, all involve the Telekinetic.

First is the near total lack of Substance infusions. Regarding Form, you have Foe Throw, Many Throw, Snaking, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Kinetic Whip, Extended Range and Extreme Range - all but two of which are open to everyone. That's OK though. I like the options. The only Substance infusion I can seem to find for Aether, is "Pushing Infusion" which - as mentioned previously - seems awfully underwhelming with it's 5ft cap.

Second, Telekinetic Finesse and Telekinetic Haul. I love them both! Well, more like love-hate. Fine manipulation is awesome, but would be more-so if the example of Disable Device were actually class. The ability to move an object 100lbs/Lv certainly has plenty of uses beyond combat, and can do awesome things for party mobility and location access if you play it creatively... but being able to throw a 1000lb object at someone for no increase to damage? That gives me a weird twitch. In theory, you could use it to elevate such an object and drop it on them for far more than your 5d6+11. On top of that, consider the area it would be hitting. How do you only hit one target if they're standing right next to their cousin Bob?

Third, ironically, is the Composite options - specifically damage minded. So you get Aetheric Boost and Force Blast if you double-up on Aether to stick to the guns of your flavor. Force is great and all (for all the right reasons), but potentially eating burn to produce the equivalent output of Fire's freebie? That seems like a taunt. At 9th, you could do either (5d6+5 + Con Mod) on a regular ranged attack, or (5d6 + 1/2 Con Mod) for 1 burn as a ranged touch attack while another element rolls them off for free - or twice as much for 1 burn (such as Blue Flame). I say ironically for this section, because it's weird to me that damage is the least of my three concerns. I assure you I'm not hating on fire - That's my typical go-to!

Someone had mentioned previously the idea of an infusion that allowed you to split up your dice into multiple attack rolls. This has my vote. Sounds like a great idea for Aether especially. Like diffusing the power of a single blast to propel multiple objects with less force, eventually building into the heavier force of Many Throw. Good way to justify some range trying to hit multiple targets.

I have a long-running campaign drawing to a close (probably this Saturday), so I'm looking to have this on hand and hopefully try a play test of my own. The idea of a villain Telekinetic that carries a sack of his victim's teeth for projectiles... Well, it sounds delightfully disturbing! I do like the fact that the weight of the objects they use appear to be irrelevant, as it's the Telekinetic Force that's really doing the damage. Gives lots of options.

Regarding Telekinetic Haul. I don't know. Maybe let it give the option to hit an area for a Reflex save if the object is sufficiently large enough? Maybe increase the damage by +# per die when opting for the reflex option? I love what it does, and it absolutely should be there, but the notion that a 900lb boulder, with all the force needed to launch it, would do an equal amount of damage to (and hit as much area as) the otherwise to-be-discarded portion of a bottle I just downed the potion from? That just feels off.

(Edited for poor word choices)

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Ooooo~ Been a LONG time since I've done this.
Then again, last time I did, I used the Book of Vile - and was descriptive.
I'll leave that behind for this suggestion though. Some players squirmed... Memorable.

I absolutely backup music. Dark, creepy ambient played loud enough to hear, but quiet enough to be missed during play can have a chill-inducing effect. When I used it last, SomnambulentCorpseRadio was still on the air, and two of the four players actually begged me to turn it off because coupled with events/descriptions, it was "creeping me the **** out!" Just a casual search for an alternative for you, seems to be similar from what I've listened to these last ten minutes, if you can navigate to the stream (not hard but it appears to be in German).

Try and leave some disturbing illogical as absolute fact when describing events.:

If they pick it up subconsciously, it'll leave them uneasy without an explanation. If they do pick it up, you could consider Will saves vs. Shaken. (grin) One of my favorites:
"The room is finely carved and decorated, though it hasn't seen activity in ages. The windows are grown over with cobwebs, casting strange shadows over a tile floor of interlocking octagons, with fine oaken tables and once-rich red and gold drapery, long since faded. A table splintered from some sort of weapon strike is the only clue of what may have last happened here."

Three rooms later, the Fighter looked at me with confusion.
"Wait... Octagons can't interlock... right?"
"Huh. That's right, isn't it? How about a Will save?"

Made the players almost afraid to notice things. Heh.

Creepy Carnies, of course!:

Another idea I used, was an older man in a town where people - mostly children - were dropping dead without apparent cause. The old man would whittle wooden toys for the children, to help take their minds off the darker days they endured. A kind old man with honest intentions.

Except they actually had a crazy good bluff check, and were hiding soul-trapping gems inside the toys (or other items if given to adults), with the implant seams sealed with mending magic, and auras hidden with other spells. He would then send his shadow minions to reclaim the gems containing souls, which he would then use for his own nefarious purposes and/or barter with outsiders.

Two men, one woman, and five children died while they chased their own hallucinatory leads - and after the fourth of these deaths, they were nearly panicking. Eight bodies after their arrival, one of them made the connection of the carved items in every home, a detail described in every scene without emphasis, and they confronted the old sorcerer and his elderly "wife" - an Erinyes in disguise.

Plot-Twist so hard, it breaks someone's neck - literally!:

Don't pull a punch if one of the characters dies... Or even consider actually killing one off on purpose. Keep an index card handy in your papers with all of the details for a ghost and/or other undead template, and after their character dies... hand them the card, which at the top says something like: "Unfortunately, for some reason, you soul cannot find rest... Welcome to your (undead type) existence." If another player thinks that player's state is somehow beneficial, and seeks their own death to obtain it? Just shrug and say you're sorry, they pass on just fine, and can roll for the baddies when something else is encountered~

This is particularly good when if players become complacent. Lets them keep acting, but dangles the notion of never finding peace over their head, which can be a deeply disturbing notion for many people.

Alternatively, create another character on your own with comparable ability of the party, and keep it aside. A local who wants to help or some-such. Then if a player dies - accidentally or on purpose - hand them the new sheet and explain;
"They're a local who wanted to help. You're them now, and I'd be more careful if I were you. I don't have another NPC I can hand out..."

That might spook them into extra caution as well, without really taking the wind out of their sails entirely.

Get creative with MAGIC!:

It's a one-shot, right? Well, spell research allows for the creation of new magic, that you won't necessarily need to keep around for future games. What about a spell that animates a living person's skin, leaving them a passenger in a puppet, like dominate but with a much shorter duration and no extra save for cause-defying actions? Maybe they could still talk through clenched teeth. After all, it's just the skin, not the muscle.

What about a zone, spell or natural like a wild magic field, that causes old wounds to rupture and pores to bleed? Something minor, like 1 point of bleed damage a round you remain within it, but there's something in the area they NEED. Magic healing doesn't stop it - healed wounds rupture again next round. Don't be afraid to describe it in a way that helps them realize how disturbing it is. If you've played the dead-PC card from above already, this scenario can be extra worrying.

Animate Object + Circus Tent + Angry Animals = Clostrophobic's personal hell.

Glass statue with key inside stomach area, bleeds when broken = Fun with Polymorph Any Object.

Change facts and stories for effect.:

Just because you learn something is true, doesn't mean it always will be.

Maybe some event happens that is very disturbing, and at first everyone is aware of it... but people begin to forget about it... until the PCs are the only ones who can remember anything about it.

Move things. Change the environment. Most can be logically explained pre or post by illusion magic, but the trick is to present it in a way that logical actions aren't the first to mind.

"I swear there was a door here... Wait... There isn't ANY door to this shack! Where did it go? How do you get in? (sound of knocking against a door and someone pleading for help, as if the door was on the underside of the building and somebody had been buried with it) G-guys? I'm not the only one hearing this, right?"
(based on how your players are taking things in... he might be...

Aim the commoners right at them.:

Major villains should be callous and methodical. Assuming the party is collectively with good intentions - say they show up to help. The locals are very please by this, and totally support them - until clues implying their involvement start showing up in their belongings... or falling out of their pouches/pockets...

Commoners aren't know for their rationality and intelligence. Maybe they'd turn on the party, who still wants to help resolve this, but doesn't want to hurt commoners. Moral conflict of interests.

Or if you're convincing enough... Lay it out in such a fashion that one or all of them start to think: "Wait - did... did we do this? I'm being deadly serious right now. Could we have done this?!"

If you like them, you're more than free to use'em, as they've run their course through my local group~ But I would be interested to know how yours reacted!

Hope this helps - it's a lot of text.

PS) Still listening to the station, and I still think it'll work well.

I have three main ideas to suggest, but the more I think about them the more I realize they might be rough on a 15 point-buy... But then again, if DEX would be lower anyways, heavy armor could compensate.

So the suggestions...

Fighter -- possibly Armor Master archetype:

Suggested Stats before mods at 1st level:
STR: 15 -- DEX: 13 -- CON: 15 -- INT: 10 -- WIS: 8 -- CHA: 10
After traits
STR: 17 -- DEX: 11 -- CON: 15 -- INT: 10 -- WIS 10 -- CHA: 10

Fighter gets a lot of grief, but it could work out good here.
Armor Master trades out Bravery, Weapon Training and Weapon Mastery but amps your defense in return. At 2nd level it allows you to use some or all of your shield bonus for Touch AC, and 5th level you have DR 3/- in heavy armor (which becomes 12/- at 19th ... and can specifically stack with Adamantine Heavy for 6/- or 15/- respectively). You get Light Fortification at 9th level, Moderate Fortification at 13th level, and total immunity to Crits/Sneak Attack at 20th along with sunder-impervious armor. Then you get a feat each and every level on top of this, thanks to odds and class bonus.

If you wanted more offensive capabilities, you could go entirely without an archetype and use feat to tailor your results, but I'm trying to minimize incoming damage for you, considering the group's general lack of a healer. Then again, this is Final Fantasy style, so healing potions might be crazy abundant! Heh.

On chance healing potions aren't common as water, I have 2 others;

Paladin -- Sacred Shield & Warrior of the Holy Light:

Suggested Stats before mods at 1st level:
STR: 14 -- DEX: 10 -- CON: 15 -- INT: 10 -- WIS: 8 -- CHA: 14
After traits
STR: 16 -- DEX: 8 -- CON: 15 -- INT: 10 -- WIS 10 -- CHA: 14

Paladin morality can be tough to deal with, but the Final Fantasy series has certainly had strongly justice-minded character in its history, well beyond the actual original Paladin - good 'ol Cecil. I suggest those two Archetypes, as they mesh together and can make for a great defensive setup. Paladin gains additional survivability in Lay on Hands, and in a pinch could use it to heal their party in or after encounters, with bonus uses from the archetypes, as well as possibly feats.

I'm actually running a paladin right now with these archetypes, and damn if I can't keep my allies alive. Bastion of Good is crazy good for saving allies, and I built into the "In Harm's Way" feat (which might not be as good with a DEX penalty, but is still very useful for this - sorta like the Cover ability from FF's history).

My other suggestion is 100% on availability and GM discretion:
If you have access to Play Test docs - and your GM is OK with its use...

Warpriest -- (comments based on Advanced Class Guild v0.2 test docs):

Stats are a hard here, as STR/CON/WIS/CHA are all relevant for this purpose.
I mention it here, despite limited access, because in a group of three it can handle well the role of meat-shield AND healer with respectable results. This does rely on a willingness of a GM to let it fly, and access to the docs for reference.

Why would it be good? Full Simple/Martial proficiency, full armor proficiency (minus tower shields), two high saves (Fort/Will), free Weapon Focus, full attack bonus with deity/cause's chosen weapon (and any other weapon you have Focus for - with damage that increases as you do), spells (up to 6th level like a Magus), a Cleric's abort to cure/inflict, and a blessing power (see below)... and that's all just at first level. At second, you start getting the real show stopper - a lay-on-hands-like ability (Fervor) you can spend uses of to cast, as a swift action, nearly any of your spells on yourself (buff/cure/etc), usable 1/2 level + Cha mod times a day.

Blessings are 3 +1/2 level a day uses. The healing one's minor (Lv.1) allows you to swift-cast cure spells on yourself without burning a use of Fervor. The major (Lv.10) gives a touched creature fast healing 3 for 1min. The protection blessing can augment your saves and armor bonuses (minor), or grand allies within 30ft deflection bonuses and energy res - including sonic (major).

Then there's the ability to augment your weapons AND armor like a Magus does, and a bonus combat feat every 3 levels, and it isn't alignment restricted to Lawful Good... It's like this class exists exclusively for your current situation, stat division difficulties aside.

If this isn't an option, I apologize for the ramble, but I felt it could fill your need nicely. It's bound to change a little in its final release (August I think?), which might require a touch-up when it does if you did use it.

Those are the best I can think of.
One stone-solid and mostly simple tank type, and two versatile.

I hope at least some of this was helpful.

EDIT: Added spoiler tags to cap my text flood.

@ArmoredMonk13: OK, maybe it's just work this week, but my brain's getting frazzled going through that thread. There is tons of yes/no/maybe as far in as I am, no there really seems to be no clarifying in sight. Monk of the Open Hand gets the closest without multiclassing. Crusader's Flurry is an interesting lead-in with a level of cleric, but I'm not sure about it. Side note, I find both Ki Focus and Ki Intensifying weapons to be very confusing... they work with your stuff, but don't give you proficiency with them. Really weird.

@Lumiere Dawnbringer: I fear that level of openness might be the proverbial "can of worms". The feats/boosts could be OK - would take some review. The feat books for that cheap would be crazy accessible. Archetype abilities? I think that right there would be taking an opener to the aforementioned can. But still, the above is reasonable return, if not over-all empowering.

@Abraham Spalding: You didn't find that such ready access to other feats and such at such an accessible price, made things a little... Too easy? My worry about lessening the costs is this - if you offer players access to it, you must consider villains have access to it, and in many cases their lack of morals will lead to a higher bank account for resources. I have to pause and think that low in cost.

@Matrix Dragon: No, actually, but I'm looking into them right now. They certainly LOOK in the right direction.
(EDIT IN) "Nemesis" is like "Toughness" on crack, if you like the challenge, and don't need it as a prerequisite.

@NinthMuskateer: Such as giving them each a character goal to pursue, like an item of legend, a forgotten tome, etc?
That could certainly work, though tailoring a specific thing for each player might be tricky.

(totally a side note)
Just had a crazy idea, and doubt it'll work, but... Is there any way to treat a Katana as a Monk Weapon...?

Well, there's his 6th level bonus, now isn't there? :)

Running into brick walls - yay!
It'll be OK though. I think it'll be interesting either way. They're ready to accept the hit.

As it stands, this is what they're looking for (on the assumption they hit 20):
Magical Tail (1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17), Craft Magical Arms & Armor (5th), has no idea what to take for 6th bonus (would be Weapon Specialization but Focus is another feat they'd have to spend), Improved Critical: Katana (11th bonus), Critical Focus (17th Bonus), Staggering Critical (19th).

They love the Crit feats, and obviously Weapon Specialization (and greater) are a draw, but the tails, man, the tails.

Personally, I'd consider the hit for Unarmed Strike, so I could take the 3 Crane Style feats as bonus. =P

Hmm... I hate to ask this, considering the headaches it caused before...
But does Pathfinder have anything similar to the "Flaws" of D&D 3.5?

Sorta a reverse-feat taken at 1st level, with a penalty, that flavored out the character in return for a feat.
Pathfinder has the Drawback option for traits. Figured one might exist for feats that I just missed, but doubt it.

More clarification, they are opting for much the route I would... Think they're taking my idea entirely~ Heh.

They'll probably bank on the feats regardless of the drawback, to stick with the notion.
They're partially looking for the SLAs so they can take "Craft Magical Arms and Armor" and make their own multiple Katana.
(Hence the question of a penalty feat that'll get another Tail in exchange for the craft feat)

Unless some other option steps forward, or some compromise is met, they're ready to eat the cost with a flinch.
(Really hoping there's an equivalent to the Flaw system though)

The Star Bell is a pretty good idea though, if not what we're looking for.
A really good idea - in fact - for pulling from mythology off the cuff~
My mind keeps bouncing back and forth between the original mythology notion, and the Champions of Kamigawa Kitsune.

Zhayne, I ditto you - Matrix Dragon's suggestion is pretty awesome!

In this case, however, the class in question is most likely Samurai (Sword Saint).
I think I might feel extra generous, because it's an idea I have personally wanted to run for some time (living vicariously?).
In a sense of my personal character notion, I really just want them for flavor, which could be granted via story with no actual benefit other than visual effect and "Whoa... I didn't know our people still did that" value. Though I kinda like the notion of having dominate person...

(brigands kick in the door of an inn where you're sitting, eating)
"Give us all your valuables, or we'll kill you all!"
(shifts eye over thinking bloodshed will ruin everyone's appetite, focuses, Dominate as an SLA, resumes eating)
"...right after we give all OUR money to the poor, and help harvest the crops!"
(boss storms out - minions are confused)
"Uhm... boss."
(Kitsune in human disguise chases down his stew with some ale, and an imperceptible smirk, finishes his dinner then waits outside for their return)

@Mudfoot: Well, it wouldn't be a DM call. It's more like the players is torn between "effective" feats, and feats that suit the notion of the character. It's an idea I'm considering with him, but am not positive about yet. Shouldn't be too hard to track really. I mean, as the DM I'd have to tally how much he's "earned" via this method, but that's really not so bad. Especially planning since 1st.

Back in 3.0/3.5 I had a GM that allowed "Feat Books" - much like you have Stat boosting tomes or Metamagic Rods (in sense of access). They were 25,000gp each, going up by 25k for each feat before it in a tree. (So 25k for Power Attack, another 50k for Cleave, another 75k for Great Cleave - wicked expensive long term, but interesting).

@Douglas: Well, unfortunately there will be people who TRY to abuse the heck out of a system like this, but in a sense, it allows a good compromise against form and function. I mean, most people have in their mind a notion of what they want the character to be like - the iconic hero they hope to become - but when feats regulated whether or not you can get that... It's kinda rough.

On one hand, there really should be a cost. You can't give something for free without looking like a jolly fat-man in red. On the other, when you're taking someone like a Barbarian, the only feats you get are level - and to invest 4 of them into a racial tree for Wings or some-such, can seriously stunt your effectiveness. Then again, back to the cautious hand, a Barbarian that can fly, rage and dive is pretty damn menacing... It's tricky.

In the case of the Kitsune aiming for 9-tails status, I feel like there should be some other way than investing 8/10 feats. No matter what class you are, that's a heavy toll on what you're capable of, and compared to the return is questionable.

I wish there was an official guideline for something like this.

Well, LazarX, that would be one of a few circumstances where it would be really good.
But that's a very specific situation, and it's sad the feel of the feat would be held back by specifics.
By the time you get the abilities, opponents often have ways to deal with them.

What I'm proposing for the player is a behind-the-scenes "loot tax" - where they'd essentially forfeit about 10-to-20% of their income, until the feats were "paid off" as if crafting a rod or staff or some-such with a per-day use limit. They'd be "paying" for the item in full, just in a non-standard way. Sorta like how a Wizard "researches" his spells for leveling behind-the-scenes as part of the class. It's technically always happening, just not really talked about.

This would allow them to stay focused on what the party needs/wants more.
I think it would be a decent way to mitigate flavor and function without breaking anything.

Just explaining my personal thoughts on it.

I did post this looking to get pros and cons, and opinions, and I do appreciate both~

So, here's a situation. A player loves the feel of the "Magical Tails" feats for Kitsune.
Playing into the whole "Mythical Enlightened Fox Spirit" idea, just a lot of feel and flavor.
The problem is, however, that it's painful to take the feats.

The cost (8/10 feats over 20 levels) is steep for, at best, Dominate Person 2/day. Not even Monster.
I can feel the player's pain... They're neat, but feats are usually to mechanically fine-tune your class.

So I ask this to other GMs:

Would you allow the player, as a Kitsune, to earn the feats as they level, through role playing and/or character development?
Considering the feats really don't add much power, beyond at best a magical item or two, I'm not sure I mind.
Would give the GM some interesting flavor control over their story too, and allow them to focus more on their party role.

So. Would you allow them to keep their feats, and earn Magical Tail up to 8 times via story?
If so, would you charge some unspoken tax, perhaps from their loot shares, as if to compensate for a magic item of some sort?

I'm inclined to say yes, but I'm interested in the opinion of others on this one.
The feats are neat, but they really seem like a painful investment.

I've been looking at the Strix race with a passing interest - that keeps coming back.
I want to play one some day, but I'm not sure how or why. Hasn't come to me yet.

The investigator that goes sick-house on uncooperative suspects could be interesting.
Might need to brief your party on your... Methods. Heh

Do agree on the fitting Legendary Monks idea, and certainly sounds neat.

See, of all the classes you CAN use for a smattering of Multiclass, I feel Alchemist really takes the cake.

You might take some Fighter for feats, or Rogue for Sneak Attack or Skills or Evasion...
But all of those are taken exclusively for mechanical reasons. Very little flavor to it, though no less effective.

Alchemist on the other hand... Really, it just oozes with flavor in most combinations I can think of.
Almost every class could have a reason to study alchemy, except perhaps Barbarian, if for no other reason than restricted lab access. Even then, raging with bombs?

In fact, I'm really surprised Paizo hasn't created a Mystic-Theurge-Esque PrC that lets you progress Wizard with Bombs and Infusions.
You'd lose bonus feats, discoveries, and other Mutagens, but hey. Still awesome.

Would fit even better with a Witch. Really, I'd consider almost ANY arcanist that rose parallel to Alchemist! Even summoner, if eidolon didn't suffer point loss. =P

New Contribution:
Samurai Cleric - No deity - Preaches their cause.
Tries to convince others to follow the honorable way of life.

My only question: Would it be Samurai lead 3/1, Cleric lead 3/1, or even up 1/1?
Either would fit the notion really.

Again, another nice piece of flavor! Really love that mini too. O.o;;
Would be a must-buy if you ran that character idea.

Houndmaster: "Who let the dogs out? Me. ME. ME!"
Hah. Question - would they also be a halfling, gnome or other creature that could ride the dogs? :)
So Huntmaster Cavalier and... Master Summoner? Weak Eidolon, but it could serve as your mount-wolf/dog/whatever~

I remember when I saw the Beastrider Cavalier variant, I got really excited... then I realized that Displacer Beasts were WotC Copyright, and they didn't exist in Pathfinder, and became very sad. ;-; That woulda been sooooooo awesome.

HAH! Like his first mate, serving from the beyond?

I have a LOT of love for the options Summoner can provide.
I hope to run one as a Planar Diplomat, collecting favors.
His Eidolon would effectively be his Secretary/Bodyguard.

Well, you can have a strong personal moral code without being lawful.
The two CNs sound like they just want their official License to Kill. =P

Interesting notions though, if not that far off.
Makes me a little of the old Warpriest and Champion of Gwynharwyf prestige classes.

What is it specifically about Arcane Archer that draws them in?
Have they made the character yet? Are they set on a race?

The notion is neat, though if I may suggest an alternative for consideration:
Race w. Outsider type for all martial proficiencies (lots of options thanks to ARG), Spellslinger --> Eldritch Knight.

You wouldn't end up with the exact same exact feel or abilities...
But you'd maintain your casting, get a boosted attack bonus, a few bonus combat feats (Specialization, Point Blank Master, Improved Crit?), and the ability to double-cast effectively when you crit, eventually.

"Don't take away my Ale. You wouldn't like me when I'm sober..."

Oh man, I do have to say I like that mental image!

Now, generally, I try to avoid multi-classing in most cases.
But for me, Alchemist has been a very tempting mistress indeed.

Trading 4-7 levels, a main of Gunslinger and Ninja are the two biggest offenders for me.
Gunslinger: "There's a lot of them... How about THIS? (volley of bombs)"
Ninja: "It appears I have been discovered. Sucks to be you! (BOOM)"

Despite my general inclination towards mono-classing in pathfinder, every once in a while a splash of one class draws my imagination and runs with it.
The flavor makes me grin so much, I can't help but consider it further.

I ask you, fellow Pathfinders:
If you were going to flavor a class with a few levels of another, which one, with what, and why?
Alternatively, I'll accept Prestige Class targets that don't typically match up. (Such as Witch into Eldritch Knight - also on my list)

Please Note:
This is not an optimization question - this should be more organic, and less number-crunchy.
I'm wondering, from a purely style point of view, what SOUNDS fun to you!
(Whether or not it actually is fun, in practice, is a whole different topic)

Never really had the opportunity to enter into PFS games.
Probably better for everyone that way... I'm not earning a lot of points lately it seems.
Not sure an Aasimar fits the image in my brain-meat, but it's worth considering.

I'm one of the three main GMs in my dozen and a half gaming friends.
On one hand, it's good they love my games. On the other hand, the disliked one gets to play in games... LOL

I haven't the slightest problem with a strength-over-dexterity Rogue.
I feel over-optimization poisons games, and completely support things on flavor grounds. :)

The Stalker's Mask is just plain creepy. Bits of face from other critters? (shudders)
For a shady type though, that is a pretty awesome flavor piece though.
I sure as hell wouldn't mess with someone who has a mask of faces.

I'm liking the Sword of Subtlety if I opt for melee. Short swords are easy to work with too.
Would be extra nice if one could augment the +# later, and/or add bane.

Originally I was going with the notion of a Fetchling Ninja...
But the same character idea would go really well with a Sniper setup too.

Decisions decisions.
I have way too many character ideas, and not enough games to play in.

(takes a deep breath - finds a little zen)
The post is titled: "The Main Problem with Fighters"
The use of that term paints the scenario perfectly, with the title.
The problem isn't the class, so much as how someone's choosing to view it.
Bigger totals may be better, but if you're going to gripe about "class balance and dps output", MMOs should be the field of choice.

There's this whole new wave of players who expect games with classes to be more smash-button-win, and it's depressing.
MMORPGs were born from games like D&D, yet have inadvertently poisoned the mindset required to enjoy them as they are.

The point of an RPG - Role Playing Game for those who have forgotten - is generally the story.
Classes and abilities and combat give you the means to drive it forward, but unless you're playing a battle-focal campaign, should not direct it.

Let's assume I'm being a jerk, and that the game in question IS battle focused.
If you sincerely believe that one class is bad, then ignore that and pick one better for your purpose.

Expecting perfect class balance in a game intended to be story-driven is a logical knot.
Even if the classes were 100% perfectly balanced without a single flaw, someone would disagree.

How much energy is wasted trying to change something tons of people are happy with, when you alone (or in small groups) disagree?
Wouldn't that energy be better spent finding something that actually does fit your preferences?
Or even finding a way to make it work for you?

There's talk about giving fighters a way to heal themselves.

MMO logic really has little to no place in Pathfinder and similar RPGs, again, except for 4th Edition, which is intentionally built to be like that.

It's easy to see it as someone who has-done/is-doing both.
A fight in a PC Game: Tank soaks hits, DPS nuke down, healer keeps tank up.

That level of flawless execution invalidates the sense of challenge, and turns the game into nothing short of a meat grinder.

Unbalanced parties, the threat of mortality, the limitations of each character, the challenge of if-and-when a fight should be engaged...
Those are the things meant to create a rich and plentiful gaming environment.
Without those, really, what's the point?

I'm sorry if you disagree with my frustration. I'm sure most people in the thread this far will.
But when I hear someone demanding a pen-and-paper RPG should match terms and standards that exist because of MMOs?
I immediately flash-back to an IT term that never ceases to work: PEBKAC

I'll leave this thread now, and cease bothering you all of the 1800+ posts with my "the problem isn't the class" belief.
If you want to throw hate my way for attempting to point out the actual class problem, feel free to PM me, and I'll act the fool there rather than returning here.
(braces for the hate)

When I read the OP say: "Fighters either need a boost to their dps so they are the king of their specialization or..."
My stomach immediately went sour. Immeadiately.

What I say to my players: "DPS is an MMO term. If you're looking for that, find someone to run a 4th Edition game for you.
If you can't learn to break that mental association, you are not welcome in my games. End of discussion."

(takes a few antacid - seriously)

Hmm... So then, the goggles would be the only thing that actually add damage to Sneak Attack dice?
It seems really lame that there isn't a melee equivalent, even if it's only +1 per die.

A sniper type character might be fun - but I'm also considering melee.
The Blackcloth could play off Sneak Attack directly if you choose the bleed talent, so that's great actually!
The Sword of Subtlety is also another good one - Is it only a sword, or is it a modifier that can be applied to any weapon?

What benefit does the Stalker's Mask give?
(I'm at work and without my Ult Equipment book)

2 people marked this as a favorite.

This post is too heavy for me to follow... So I'll just leave this here and walk away~

I find that even if a player "really deserves it", I never need to punish them. They'll do it for me, and then blame me for it.

The best example is the juggernaut mentality: They get to an encounter that was never meant to be a fight, charge in, die, and complain that I put them up against something unreasonable and throw a fit.
Usually, if you try to explain to the same person that it wasn't meant to be combat encounter, or that monsters aren't born to bleed XP, they'll argue "That's stupid!" or "But I'm a (class)!"

Am I the only one, as a GM, that wonders where self preservation has gone in the minds of players?
I'm guessing MMO type games are the leading culprit, though really anything with a respawn/reload option is at fault.

Players forget that fighting isn't the only option - or that they can retreat if needed, depending on the foe.

So many people value their total scores and combat ability over character depth, that it actually depresses me sometimes.
I've never been a book reader, but D&D (then Pathfinder) is what gave me my love for a deep story, and the ability to see one through.

These are the types of people who often "deserve punishment".
They are also the type of people who, given a world filled with creatures of varying power, will eventually punish themselves.

Any class - and I do mean any - can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

I don't feel I'd have a harder time explaining one over another for a new player.

Think about it in terms of who does what, in a simplified fashion:

Combat characters will need an explanation of Attacks of Opportunity, all the Combat Maneuvers, flanking, cover, etc.

Skill-types will need an explanation of which abilities do which things, which of those auto succeed or fail on a 20 or a 1 respectively, and a score of environmental details.

Casters will need a primer on how to prepare (or choose) what they have, an explanation of save DCs, what the schools (or your class) are known for - and encouragement to be creative.

Every class can be as complicated or as simple as you wish it to be.
A wizard can go straight evocation. Boom boom boom. Simple.
A rogue can focus on disabling through sneak attack, rather than obscene damage, which requires a lot of tactical thought.
A fighter can focus on combat maneuvers, or tricks, and skills that aren't expected of them.

Every one of these people can go into class Archetypes, which can further simplify or complicate things.

It's all preference.

As a GM, I openly accept bribes. In the form of books I don't yet have.
I reward said bribes with a positive mood, and more variety in the game~

I jokingly: "Accept bribes of Bombay Sapphire and Glenlivet 13+"
Though this has never come up, I highly doubt I'd offer more than a +5 on a single roll.
Then again... If you were to use a system like action points... To earn another... Heh.

I'm not looking for build, class or stat suggestions, though I appreciate the thought.
Likewise I don't "optimize" my goal - I start with the character idea, then pick the details, not the other way around.
(I'm one of those annoying "story-comes-first" types - sorry)

I'm specifically looking for a list of items that directly work with Sneak Attack.
I'm versed in the game enough that I know all the tricks needed to snipe successfully~

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