General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Eiseth Leroung wrote:
This may have been answered already but how do feats such as point blank shot and rapid shot etc function with the blasts, or do they not function at all?

yep it has been answered(answer below).

Mark Seifter wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
Of that list, only Deadly Aim would work.


DomonKashu wrote:
Tels wrote:
DomonKashu wrote:

Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.

I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.

What about an automatic Expanded Element, with the option to take a Wild Talent instead?

Like, Expanded Element at 6, 12, and 18, but you can choose to, instead, take an additional Wild Talent of your choice.

Taking expanded element or a wild talent would be what we have now anyway.

However, getting it earlier is a good idea, I suggested level 6 instead of 7 a couple pages ago.
Still holding out hope we get more early choices as it stands other than water they have to take universal powers just to fill out their choices for levels 1-4.

That's not what I meant.

Remove Expanded Element from the list of Wild Talents entirely, and turn it into a class feature. However, people who don't want Expanded Element, can choose to not take the extra element, and instead select a bonus Wild Talent, or possibly a feat.

By turning it into a class feature, you make it possible for everyone to, at least, get the souped up version of their elemental blast (like the Blue Flame Blast). Then, if they decide they don't want another element, they can just choose a bonus Wild Talent instead.


Okay, reverse engineering Spell levels again... what if every time you would reach a new level of spells emulation, you get Expanded Element. You can pick to get better in your own and unlock a finer degree of utility mastery in your primary element, or select a new element and add first spell level utility abilities from that. Now we've got a situation where each element is, in effect, a microclass. Do I multi element Pyro at the cost of stunting my Geo abilities? Do I take expanded element Geo all 9 times to be the best earth mover I can be?
Damage with all elements scale with level, but your finer control points and which simple blasts you have access to is based on a choice every few levels.

This allows for a versatile damage type blaster, or a static damage type blaster who's versatility is in options for how to operate, not how to type-match. Or anywhere in between.

Composite Blasts would require mastery level 3, so you can get up to 3 elements to level three and have their own double blast, and mix and match the other two.

Form infusions could work on all blasts, but require x mastery of a given element to unlock them.
Substance still work only on the elements that currently apply to them.
So I get, say, fire mastery 6 and learn explosion form. I can use it with my hydro blast, but I can't add burn to water, or entangle to fire. I can then get water mastery 3 and use spray form with my fire blast.

This also makes separating Cryo and Electro from water and air a bit easier. I can now focus on one side or the other, add lighting to my fire bender for an Azula, and so forth.

Dark Archive

alternis sol wrote:
Eiseth Leroung wrote:
This may have been answered already but how do feats such as point blank shot and rapid shot etc function with the blasts, or do they not function at all?

yep it has been answered(answer below).

Mark Seifter wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
Of that list, only Deadly Aim would work.

In which case does precise shot work? If not are you then forced to suffer the penalty for using the blasts into combat?


Precise shot "you can shoot or throw ranged weapons..."
Blasts are Spell Like Abilities. Not weapons. The feat does not apply, RAW.
I believe eventually blasts will be worded to include a "functions as a spell for the purposes of" or "functions as a weapon for the purposes of" to make feats compatible. Or whole new feats will be written just for them. Which feels unnecessarily bloaty to me.

Though, a feat selection that applies specifically to SLA could make a few bloodlines, racial powers, and similar powers become relevant. Might not be a horrible move to make a feat section that can cause your inherent 2/day fire breath to be a defining character trait.


Actually it does, because there are spells which create rays, acid arrows, and splashes which also let you apply Point Blank Shot. These are considered to be weapons, you can even take "Weapon Focus (Rays)". Basically just because you have a spell like ability, does not mean the effect it generates is not considered a weapon.

Also the part qouted says only deadly aim would work. The rest are listed ways of increasing number of attacks, excepting snap shot which is not possible because the blast requires a standard action which is not one you can do as part of an AoO.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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David Neilson wrote:
Actually it does, because there are spells which create rays, acid arrows, and splashes which also let you apply Point Blank Shot. These are considered to be weapons, you can even take "Weapon Focus (Rays)". Basically just because you have a spell like ability, does not mean the effect it generates is not considered a weapon.

Rays have a specific FAQ allowing them to be treated as weapons. This is not an all inclusive FAQ and would not apply to the kineticist's blasts, which are not rays (unless they change something somewhere).


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I tried to read through the whole thread to make sure i wasnt repeating other peoples ideas but i just dont have the time these days to catch up on 1400 posts...

1) Add a talent akin to rapid bombs, take some burn to make a number of blasts equal to BAB + rapid shot/haste etc.

2) Somewhere between level 7-12 a talent to take a decent burn hit to let you add multiple talents to a blast without paying their individual burn costs?

3) A delayed burn ability to put off feeling the burn for a number of rounds equal to your con mod or half your con mod? Another way to nova hard and KO yourself at the end of the fight... if you got them. Actually i'd like it if burn didnt kick in until after the ability that caused it went off, it would add a cool gambling blast choice if you need to end the fight this turn.

4) A talent to apply style feats to blasts? mostly for kinetic fist users i guess but i definitely think there needs to be a monk or sacred fist style of archetype for the class.

5) This would make burn more complicated but track burn total and nonlethal from burn seperately, the nonlethal can be healed but the accumulated burn points can only be reset on a night's rest.

Apologies for redundant ideas or if some of these have already been explained away. As a disclaimer, i havent been able to read the whole thread and havent had a chance to play one in a game yet... but i think i will be throwing some enemy kineticists at the group in the next game.


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As written I have a geokineticist that makes full and potent use of the Snake style. I looked through a few others that worked well for them. So far, stunning/elemental fist styles are the only ones that don't work well. I'm sure there will be a monk archetype for this which makes blasts work as elemental fist of the given element.

Scarab Sages

alternis sol wrote:
which is beyond perception range of everything so they are flatfooted to me and can't retaliate if they survive.

If you are beyond their perception, they are beyond your perception.

Grand Lodge

Artanthos wrote:
alternis sol wrote:
which is beyond perception range of everything so they are flatfooted to me and can't retaliate if they survive.
If you are beyond their perception, they are beyond your perception.

Only if you have exactly equal perception modifiers and/or sight options. Or worse options, I suppose.


I would only ask then, when do you make an attack roll that does not involve a weapon? Also do you then not include acid splash as getting a bonus from point blank shot, since it too lacks an FAQ that defines it as a weapon?

From another point of view, since you are treating the blast as an attack it will take in combat penalties and cover penalties. Which even if you use the range touch attacks is fairly bad. However for the ones that are normal attacks will be really rough for a 3/4 BAB class.


Artanthos wrote:
alternis sol wrote:
which is beyond perception range of everything so they are flatfooted to me and can't retaliate if they survive.
If you are beyond their perception, they are beyond your perception.

there are 2 solutions to this

1) have a telescope (not sure what this cost/ what bonuses it gives) but it should let you deal with the distance issue

2) have a wand of clairvoyance or caster that specializes in divination
to give you directions (basically you'd be a sniper unit, kineticist = sniper, divination specialist = spotter) if i'm using this method the last 2 party members would be a skald (because kineticist like skalds) and a healer


Mark has stated that Arcane Strike works with blast if you can qualify for it, and weapon focus also works. I don't think it's so easy to say that Precise Shot doesn't apply. The things that don't work are those that rely on attack actions, such as rapid shot, since the blast is a standard action.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

David Neilson wrote:

I would only ask then, when do you make an attack roll that does not involve a weapon? Also do you then not include acid splash as getting a bonus from point blank shot, since it too lacks an FAQ that defines it as a weapon?

From another point of view, since you are treating the blast as an attack it will take in combat penalties and cover penalties. Which even if you use the range touch attacks is fairly bad. However for the ones that are normal attacks will be really rough for a 3/4 BAB class.

Yeah, I always understood ray of frost to be better than acid splash specifically because rays get to count as weapons.

And yes, the blast should suffer all the normal penalties for attacking enemies engaged in melee combat and/or with cover at range (at least that's my understanding).

Scarab Sages

Jeff Merola wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

@Zwordsman - blade/whip/fist all say associated blast any. So to my knowledge you can use a composite blast with them.

you are correct on the lack of substance in a force blaster. You are also correct on the 1 form per blast limiter. Otherwise? Whip + Extended range. My god look at all those attacks of opportunity you just took by existing in my room.

Actually picking a whip as your weapon with elemental whip already gives a 15' reach and the ability to attack adjacent targets.

At 16th level greater kinetic form grants 15' reach, doubled to 30' if using a reach weapon. Kinetic blade means all squares are threatened.

As a point of curiosity: what is the reach of a huge creature using a whip? If you follow the size progression for normal attacks and reach attacks it should be 45', but I don't believe whips on large/huge creatures are specifically addressed by RAW.

Actually, you only get 10' with Kinetic Whip, as it gives you the reach of a "reach weapon appropriate to your size" NOT the reach of the weapon you form with it.

You are using two phrases that mean the same thing and implying they have different meanings. A whip is a reach weapon. When using a whip of the appropriate size, a medium creature has a 15' reach.

Kinetic Whip wrote:
This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.

The specific reach weapon used is not explicitly stated, which leaves the whip as a valid weapon choice.


I can't see any reason why attack rolls for the blast shouldn't take penalties for cover or firing into melee, which should mean that precice shot works. If not, that's a rough penalty to overcome on top of the accuracy issues they already have.

Scarab Sages

Point Blank, Precise Shot, Kirin Strike, Studied Target, Bardic Inspiration, Weapon Focus and anything else that would apply to ranged weapons applies to Kinetic Blast.


I love the class, tough I can see the weakness compared to alchemists.

An issue with the wording of Move Earth. It doesn't say if the earth you move has to stay in contact with other earth, and if not, how long it stays floating. Its going to make the text more cumbersome, but some idea of how much support the earth needs is a must. Can you ride a cube of earth as a very slow fly spell through continuous attention? Can you ride a cube of earth as an elevator up a wall, and does this depend on whether the wall is worked stone or not? If you raise a five foot cube straight up, does the earth underneath "come along" to make a pillar, or have you just created a small earthfall? The earth moves quickly enough that someone could fail to jump off; can it be used to move someone over and edge, and if so will it (and the rider) fall? Can it be used as a ram? A 5 ft cube of stone is approximately 16 tons, moving suddenly enough that someone might fail to jump off. I would overrun any Huge or smaller creature and smash most buildings.

This is an amazing power, but it needs quite a bit of clarification. Probably the answer to all these questions is a no, but that needs to be mentioned. Defining a power in physical terms is not the same as defining in in game terms.

The Exchange

I was making my Water Kineticist to play in our local PFS game this week, and then into a new Iron Gods path starting next month. Just had a question and a comment. I may have missed the answer in an earlier post, wow the thread just keeps getting bigger every time I come back :)

1) Kinectic cover. How long is it suppose to last/duration? 1 round or longer? Since its a standard action I assume it should be at least a full round, but how long should it stay there?

2) Blast as spell like ability. I see the various posts here where this is spelled out. Thanks btw for being so active in the thread and responding so much :) I went back through the pdf a few times and I couldn't find it listed anywhere in the class description or blast rules. The closest I could find is in Wild Talents it says, "Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities." This may need to be more clearly defined in the kinetic blast rules.

Grand Lodge

Artanthos wrote:


You are using two phrases that mean the same thing and implying they have different meanings. A whip is a reach weapon. When using a whip of the appropriate size, a medium creature has a 15' reach.

Kinetic Whip wrote:
This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.
The specific reach weapon used is not explicitly stated, which leaves the whip as a valid weapon choice.

No, a whip is a very specific type of reach weapon that functions differently from normal reach weapons and has specific rules text that says it works differently. You don't get any other properties of the weapons you form beyond handedness, why would you get the extra reach from the whip?


Misnik wrote:

I was making my Water Kineticist to play in our local PFS game this week, and then into a new Iron Gods path starting next month. Just had a question and a comment. I may have missed the answer in an earlier post, wow the thread just keeps getting bigger every time I come back :)

1) Kinectic cover. How long is it suppose to last/duration? 1 round or longer? Since its a standard action I assume it should be at least a full round, but how long should it stay there?

2) Blast as spell like ability. I see the various posts here where this is spelled out. Thanks btw for being so active in the thread and responding so much :) I went back through the pdf a few times and I couldn't find it listed anywhere in the class description or blast rules. The closest I could find is in Wild Talents it says, "Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities." This may need to be more clearly defined in the kinetic blast rules.

It actually does say it in the class description.

Kineticist wrote:

Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element’s simple blast wild talents. The kineticist

can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kinetic blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

Ex = Extraordinary

Su = Supernatural
Sp = Spell-like

Scarab Sages

Jeff Merola wrote:
Artanthos wrote:


You are using two phrases that mean the same thing and implying they have different meanings. A whip is a reach weapon. When using a whip of the appropriate size, a medium creature has a 15' reach.

Kinetic Whip wrote:
This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.
The specific reach weapon used is not explicitly stated, which leaves the whip as a valid weapon choice.
No, a whip is a very specific type of reach weapon that functions differently from normal reach weapons and has specific rules text that says it works differently. You don't get any other properties of the weapons you form beyond handedness, why would you get the extra reach from the whip?

If no other properties are inherited, you gain no benefit from weapon finesse. Whips are the only reach weapon with the finesse property.

Without Weapon Finesse, the kinecticist is going to have difficulty hitting with melee touch attacks.

Grand Lodge

It doesn't say "make a light or one handed reach weapon" it says "same as kinetic blade, but it also has reach." There's a difference.

Scarab Sages

Jeff Merola wrote:
It doesn't say "make a light or one handed reach weapon" it says "same as kinetic blade, but it also has reach." There's a difference.

Kinetic Blade allows the user to specify the weapon.

Kinetic Blade wrote:

You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure

energy or elemental matter

The only property not inherited from the weapon chosen is the damage profile.

Kinetic Blade wrote:

make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals

your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type

All other properties of the weapon are retained. Weapon Finesse is an option only because you are free to choose light weapons and one-handed weapons with the finesse property. The ability to use Weapon Finesse is not inherent in the SLA, but is a result of weapon choice.

Kinetic Whip, on the other hand says:

Kinetic Whip wrote:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.

Specific weapon selection is removed as an option. We can treat this as a literal whip, or as a generic weapon with no special properties other than reach. In the latter case; no Weapon Finesse.

Grand Lodge

Artanthos wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
It doesn't say "make a light or one handed reach weapon" it says "same as kinetic blade, but it also has reach." There's a difference.

Kinetic Blade allows the user to specify the weapon.

Kinetic Blade wrote:

You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure

energy or elemental matter
The only property not inherited from the weapon chosen is the damage profile.

The choice of weapon is almost entirely for coolness, beyond the handedness qualities.

Artanthos wrote:

Kinetic Whip, on the other hand says:

Kinetic Whip wrote:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.
Specific weapon selection is removed as an option. We can treat this as a literal whip, or as a generic weapon with no special properties other than reach. In the latter case; no Weapon Finesse.

It also says the following:

Quote:
This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.

Since it doesn't remove the ability to choose handedness, you can still make a light weapon with it, thus finessable.


It's pretty obvious that the intention is for Kinetic Whip to give a double reach. All of this quoting of rules is only good for getting the rules clarified for when the book goes live.

Scarab Sages

Kinetic whip does remove the choice of weapon selection:

Kinetic Whip wrote:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.

And to quote the post you linked

Mark Seifter wrote:
It can definitely be used to trip or sunder, and if you make it light, you can finesse with it but not wield it in two hands. It doesn't grant any proficiencies, so the shape is mostly for cool factor. That said, this is a neat idea! I am strongly considering something special in there that lets you alter your kinetic blade to add weapon special qualities to it (like maybe adding a curving hook to add the disarm quality)

The weapon is finessable if you choose a light weapon. The weapon can be used two-handed if you choose a two handed weapon (and benefit from power attack if attacking normal AC). Choosing a simple weapon is recommended, as proficiency is not granted.

Since Kinetic weapon specifies the form, you loose the ability to choose weapon type. Proficiency and special properties are, apparently, not granted, though that is not currently specified in RAW.

Grand Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
It's pretty obvious that the intention is for Kinetic Whip to give a double reach. All of this quoting of rules is only good for getting the rules clarified for when the book goes live.

Pretty sure that's one of the points of the playtest.

And if giving the whip's reach is what is intended, it should probably specify that instead of just saying "a reach weapon appropriate for your size" as the whip is a very atypical reach weapon. I'd actually argue that despite its name, it's not intended to do that, as it doesn't suffer from any of the problems the normal whip does (nonlethal, doesn't threaten, provokes as a ranged weapon, can't hurt foes with certain amounts of armor) that you normally have to take a feat chain to fix.

Artanthos wrote:

Kinetic whip does remove the choice of weapon selection:

Kinetic Whip wrote:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.

To quote a popular saying on the Rules forum "fluff text is not rules text." The rules of the ability are "This functions as Kinetic Blade, plus reach."

Artanthos wrote:
The weapon is finessable if you choose a light weapon. The weapon can be used two-handed if you choose a two handed weapon (and benefit from power attack if attacking normal AC. Choosing a simple weapon if recommended, as proficiency is not granted.

You can't form a two-handed weapon, actually (though you can certainly pick a one-handed form and two-hand it).


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I almost hope kinetic whip stays a non-specific weapon with reach, if only so we don't see this class end up SoulKnife 2.no...

This class shouldn't need to use whip at all, like it presently does. Making whip that much better would make it that much more staple. Making the ability to create a mental weapon that grows with you a staple of a class in which the ability to do so is only a few talents out of many choices would be a major mistake.

When this class overhauls to a better blast, Whip and Blade need to be proportionally less important, a matter of flavor rather than need.

I feel that a damage amount in your standard blast that can hold its own without a fast-bomb talent or whip is a strong start, then limit the added damage of whip and the hoped for fast bombs talent by a proportion that makes going melee a slightly higher average damage (you are risking your neck in the front line after all) but not by enough to make back line kineticists feel useless. Same for fast bomb style, it should be a series of light taps that works better for crowd control than the single big shot.


Jeff Merola wrote:


Artanthos wrote:

Kinetic whip does remove the choice of weapon selection:

Kinetic Whip wrote:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.
To quote a popular saying on the Rules forum "fluff text is not rules text." The rules of the ability are "This functions as Kinetic Blade, plus reach."

was going to say this but you beat me to it, thank you.

Jeff Merola wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
The weapon is finessable if you choose a light weapon. The weapon can be used two-handed if you choose a two handed weapon (and benefit from power attack if attacking normal AC. Choosing a simple weapon if recommended, as proficiency is not granted.
You can't form a two-handed weapon, actually (though you can certainly pick a one-handed form and two-hand it).

can you post where you got the proficiency is not granted.

regardless something funny you can probably do with kinetic whip is say I form a dagger in my hand, cosmetically this looks like a 10 ft. long greatsword that I'm wielding with one hand, I point it at the (input enemy) and say surrender.

Scarab Sages

Jeff Merola wrote:
Pretty sure that's one of the points of the playtest.

And exactly the point I'm trying to make. If a rule can be reasonably mis-interpreted, better to make the argument before the rules are finalized.

Quote:
And if giving the whip's reach is what is intended, it should probably specify that instead of just saying "a reach weapon appropriate for your size" as the whip is a very atypical reach weapon. I'd actually argue that despite its name, it's not intended to do that, as it doesn't suffer from any of the problems the normal whip does (nonlethal, doesn't threaten, provokes as a ranged weapon, can't hurt foes with certain amounts of armor) that you normally have to take a feat chain to fix.

I agree.

Quote:
To quote a popular saying on the Rules forum "fluff text is not rules text." The rules of the ability are "This functions as Kinetic Blade, plus reach."

Unfortunately, this is also applied mid-sentence to eliminate just the parts a particular poster disagrees with. Statements that anywhere else would have been labeled fluff have been used as a hammer against unpopular archetypes. (Synthesist eidolon = translucent, as interpreted by people who don't understand the implications of the world in real world usage or that is it just as much fluff ans the Kinetic Whip's description.)

There is nothing explicitly calling out the specified form as fluff. That makes for an argument that it is RAW. Best to get an official resolution in playtest.

Quote:
You can't form a two-handed weapon, actually (though you can certainly pick a one-handed form and two-hand it).

I mis-worded. The intent was to demonstrate creating a one-handed weapon and two-handing it while using Power Attack.

Scarab Sages

alternis sol wrote:
can you post where you got the proficiency is not granted.

It was in the text I quoted from Mark a few posts up.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, at this point we just need to wait for Mark to get back and rule on the matter.


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well if we consider the entire kinetic whip text a the rules for the ability than we get a direct conflicts between you form a long tendril of energy and this functions as kinetic blade with reach. on one hand we would definitely have a whip but nothing else, on the other can create a light one handed weapon that looks 10 ft. greatsword.

so yes if we view the entire text as the rules for the ability then it needs clarified, which probably won't happen until mark gets back.

on that note mark if you are reading this take all the time you need with your family, because family is more important than what boils down to a game no matter how much we enjoy the game.

okay missed that the first time, I think that still means I can create a dagger that looks like a 10 ft. greatsword for cool factor tho.
also I think marks intention was to stop people from using kinetic blade to qualify for things like dervish dance by creating a scimitar.


I would think that the tendril is not being wielded by hand, but instead by kinesis. The hand is needed to aim the attacks, but as it adds no strength damage, it seems that it can't be "2 hand wielded". However, I can imagine tough,a kineticist using another hand to improve control/focus in way that the tendril could be treated as a 2 handed weapon for power attack and other feats.


another random thought for the two TK blast options.

1) Does the standard damage we have (xd6+1+con per 2lvs 1,3,5,7 etc). Hits standard AC. This uses items to throw, but does damage type based on the item. If no items supplied by the player then general items around (dust, spit, whatever really just so it's not pointless. Damage type i guess by choice at that point?). But it uses the item's properties. I.e. adamantine sword bypasses adamantine DR. You can do P with the tip, Slash by flinging it sideways, i guess maybe bashing by shooting it pommel first or side of it? similarly you could launch a alchemical weapon (generally speaking I guess due to the shapes they'd do Bashing probably) but it would typically set off the alchemical item (doing it's standard effect no bonus to it)
Basically xd6+1+con B P S depending on how thrown, probably set off various properties. That would make more sense given Tk blasting it. no SR

the touch one is just gonna be your general blast. Force is probably a bit much to have unlimited all day. Unless the damage was super low-at which point we'd probably rarely actually use it probably.. Low lv force stuff right now is like... Magic missle, arcanist's thing, wizard's thing and I think there was a sorcerer thing that did similar?
Then again.. it would only be scaling like a spell. So maybe it wouldn't be over powered? Though they secured a composit blast that does force like that. so I don't think they want it like that. The other alternative I guess would be sonic or untyped damage. Not much better than force from Pathfinder's power scale. Though there are some things that do untyped energy damage.

So maybe just have it do B P S, but hit touch. But doesn't fling any items. It's simply a TK attack. All the best tropes do actually have each damage type present. Sylor from heros used slashing, Push uses bashing, ive seen some piercing ones like X.
xd6+1/2con PBS touch AC SR applies,

They aren't much different sadly but I think the item usage is distinctive enough to warrent touch vs normal AC

Edit: Also for kinetic Whip. I have been imagining Psylock or Gin fro mbleach, or Travis Touchdown.

The weapon is normal sized but whenever you attack (or take an aoo) it extends out as you need.

qualifing for dervish dancer is kinda pointless though.. it replaces str with dex for damage.. but the kinetic blade/whip doesn't get str t odamage in the first place.

I do vote it stays quasi nothing just stay in the weapon category (cause..weapon finesse) and the reach thing is just a burst attack before it goes back to normal size. Like in the above example


Just a reminder that the items you throw with your tk blast take just as much damage from the impact as the creature struck by it. So you might not want to throw those magic items after all.


Where is that stated? That's weird, because if the stuff thrown takes damage, acid flasks and alchemist fires should break, which has been stated as not happening.


Telekinetic Blast (Sp): You throw whatever unattended object happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weight 5 lbs. per kineticist level you possess or less. If you hit, the target and the thrown object each suffer an amount of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage equal to 1d6+1 + your Constitution modifier.

Beginning of last sentence. And it just says magical items or unusual items. Acid flash and alchemist fire are not magical of unusual, they are mondain items, so they would work in my opinion.


But Mark has said they don't. I wonder how he'll rule on this?


If you hit, the target and the thrown object each
suffer an amount of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing
damage equal to 1d6+1 + your Constitution modifier.

From TK blast.

I do find it pretty darn strange frankly. that it damages what your throwing while it offers no advantages.

Plus well.. doing math to figure out if you busted some random object is a pain....

I hope they either allow vital strike or make wyld talents that replicate it. Preferably substance and not form infusion. So few substance ones and I don't think an ythat helps aetherist


I think this rule that the object is ignored when determining damage will be changed. It just doesn't make sense. If a brick of silver is thrown at a werewolf it will damage him. If an adamantine block is thrown at a wall, it will crack, if you throw acid it will corrode. If the object is not important to the damage, then get rid of it, make a simple crushing force blast (bludgeoning damage). Witch btw, I think should exist anyway.

On a unrelated side note: what if the terra/geokineticist could attack with his blasts using strength? Something similar to the old brutal throw. I think it would be thematically appropriate.


Heladriell wrote:
On a unrelated side note: what if the terra/geokineticist could attack with his blasts using strength? Something similar to the old brutal throw. I think it would be thematically appropriate.

if you mean strength to hit that would make geokineticist the go to kineticist switch hitter, which may not be a bad thing or it could invalidate the other elements. on a side note doing this would make geokineticist like skalds more than they already do.


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I agree with a lot of the statements for better BAB I'm not sure whether it would be a sudo-full BAB like the Monk/Brawler or proper Full BAB. The problem is that the class is completely based on being able to hit with the wild blast and if he can't hit with it due to his 3/4 BAB then it defeats her purpose.


Yup. Either full bab. Pseudo full bab when using kinetic blast (idk about blade not qualfied for that discussion I am), or alterations to burn so you can use Feel The Burn without massive pain.
That and possibly either increase in damage, or allowing via special wording to work with stuff like Vital strike might handle (if your one of the ones who think there needs to be more damage for the One-shot a round ranged blast)
Would handle all or most of the offense issues. I prefer the pseudo bab or burn solutoins rather than straight up full bab.

Then hopefully some clearer utility abilities with regards to using elements/abilities.

Those two aspects solved then really would be a nawesome class.


I think the problem with burn is that, if I read it right, the amount you can take is constant...you never get more burn except by increasing your constitution score.

I read it as 3+Con Bonus maximum per day.


On burn. I have the feel that burn is about twice as costly as it ought to be. How about each burn point inflicting one point of Constitution damage that cannot be recovered normally, but is recovered automatically next day? Sure, this is worse in some ways (lessened abilities, reduced hp, chance of death), but you get to burn twice as much before you go down. Another problem with attribute damage is that the mechanism for it is rather complex.

As an alternative, make burn "damage" not scale with level. Say it is a static d10 regardless of level. Then a higher-level kineticist can burn more. Alot more.

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I'm wondering if there's a way that telekineticists could benefit from their high Con scores for the purposes of Light Touch. Maybe treating your Strength to lift objects as equal to your Constitution modifier + your kineticist level? If we go by max load as the cap, that would mean the average CON 18, 1st-level telekineticist could manipulate objects up to 50 lbs. (good, but certainly not game-breaking, I don't think), while a 20th-level TKer with, let's say CON 26 (from ability score increases and items) can manipulate up to 1,200 lbs (but remember: 20th-level). A 10th-level telekineticist with CON 22 is rocking up to 230 lbs.

This seems in line for what we might collectively conceive as appropriate for the different characeter levels. The consensus, I imagine, is somewhere between Carrie and Jean Grey, Omega-grade strength.

EDIT: Obviously, as it stands, Telekinetic Haul is already more powerful, but it shouldn't be essential. Seems like a wild talent tax.


Consider the mass an Earth Kineticist can move when moving 5' cubes of stone...

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