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i am really hoping that two for the ancestries are just start up Aasimar an Tiefling as straight ancestries
What for? Just make a human aasimar/tiefling and you get exactly that.
Really hoping for a were creature ancestry as one is most likely Ganzi right?
Ganzi are confirmed to be a versatile heritage in this book. Luis just confirmed it last night.
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8. No Large ancestries in LOAG or LOME, but there's an ancestry feat... somewhere... that let's you become large in one of the ancestries. Very vague. Very exciting.
But in all seriousness, while that is what I'd like to see , I'm honestly not sure what other possibilities there are for heritages.
Edit: What would people think about Kaimana as the new name for minor weres? Or just Garou of course.
So as to not drown out the thread with my own guess, what other guesses do people have for the new heritage?
I considered Mortics, but I'd assume they would be more like Fleshwarps than Dhampir. If we didn't already know Fetchlings would be an ancestry, I might suggest them as a heritage. I wouldn't expect a shadow Planar scion in this book for that reason, but perhaps an Astral, Ethereal, or First World scion? Or something even more esoteric like Time or Dream?
I'm partial to the term Therian/Therion or Zoan for Skinwalkers. They come from the terms Therianthropy and Zoanthropy. Therianthropy is a broader them used to describe a Werecreature of all kinds, since Lycan specifically denotes wolves. Kaimana makes me think of Cynanthropy, which relates to weredogs; and the delusion that someone is a deal dog. Likewise, Zoanthropy is also known as "Clinical lycanthropy", delusions that one could turn into an animal. Therian and Zoan both come from Greek worlds meaning "wild animal" and "animal" respectively. Both terms have been used in various media, especially games, when referencing people with similar transformative abilities. Some examples are Velvet Crowe, who is referred to as a Therion Daemon and possesses an arm reminiscent to the werewolves in the game; as well Bloody Roar, where Zoanthropes are humans who can change into beasts.
As a side not, Garou comes from old French and essentially means "Were", which would be fitting. But, it is mostly used when referring to the Rougarou or Loup-Garou, or French wereolves. Plus, we do have the Rougarou in Pathfinder already, and I personally have a thing against repeated word use and naming conventions.
As far as other guesses for new Ancestries and Heritages; by my count we still have 3 unrevealed Ancestries (assuming Azarketi aren't being included on this list as "new", given the circumstances of their pending addition in LO: Absalom) and one Heritage.
I'm gonna say Skinwalkers have a good chance as the Heritage. I personally feel like they are the last major Versatile Heritage that we need added and are a counter to the Dhampir (similar to how Aphorites and Ganzi are being added and are relatable to Aasimar and Tiefling).
For Ancestries, I'd say Gathlain, Strix, Mortics. Mortics will be very similar to the Fleshwarps here imo, which Hertiages that specifically tie to each different kind. Since they were the route of Mortic being more a general term, and then each subspecies being tied not only to a Core Ancestry, but a specific type of Undead as well, I think that is the best bet for them. Plus, having been the last race added in PF1, I feel it is important to included them sooner rather than later so that they can shine in a way they couldn't then.
Gathlain would be another Fey Ancestry, one capable of flight. And, likewise, Strix can fly as well. And we've seen a trend of more "hostile" races being made into "misunderstood" Ancestries in PF2. So, it seems likely.
I'm also still very curious about Urobians. They get mentioned in Bestiary 1 as the Monitor decendant Planar Scion, but nothing more. I'd argue that the Urobian is a general term meant to include the likes of the Aphorite, Duskwalkers, and Ganzi. But, Duskwalkers make absolutely no use of the word anywhere in their writeup, and are technically not decendant from Psychopomps. They are the result of souls being given second life by Psychopomps. Likewise, Aphorites are created by the Axiomites as mortal proxies, and Ganzi are the result of mutations cause by the planar energies of the Malestrom. None of them are technically decendants of an Immortal race of beings. So, I'm currently of the mind set that they are going to be a new Heritage altogether with Lineages based on Monitors such as True Aeons, Proteans, maybe Inevitables, and any new neutral aligned Immortals we may see added down the road.
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Gathlains were confirmed to not be in when the book was first revealed. It was rated very very low in the survey they did, below all the returning ancestry proposed, and below most of the new ones.
We only have one unrevealed ancestry and one unrevealed versatile heritage left to know. The "third missing one" was revealed yesterday in an interview to be Ganzi, a versatile heritage, and that there was still one of each missing, one of those written by Luis.
(Urobian is mentioned in the PF2 bestiary)
Something else to consider that I don't think I've seen anyone else mention is that the last ancestry could be Nymph. Afterall, Naiads were a playable race in 1e and they could be a heritage of Nymph in 2e now.
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Strix just now confirmed by Luis in today's Dangerous Wednesday livestream!
Strix are the last missing ancestry with wings starting at level one and, while they don't fly right away, they can gain a feat at 5th level to fly.
Now we just need the last missing Versatile Heritage.
FYI, in the stream, Eleanor mentioned putting Runes on Combat Wheelchairs from The Grand Bazaar book and make flaming chainsaw wheels!
Fifth level flight is awesome. I'm so pumped for this book!
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Have kayals/fetchlings been brought up?
I believe on yesterday's stream Luis may have slipped up and said they're in (think he wanted to say changelings, which we know for a fact), but I might be misremembering.Either way, they seem likely a likely final option as a versatile heritage.
Fetchlings were announced at the same time as the book.
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Something else to consider that I don't think I've seen anyone else mention is that the last ancestry could be Nymph. Afterall, Naiads were a playable race in 1e and they could be a heritage of Nymph in 2e now.
Would be cool to see Nymph with Naiad and Dryad options
Cool, strix! I know very little about them but they seem awesome. Man so many of these teases are so cool. Bat like get? Contruct-ey fleshwarps? By far the most excited I've been for a lost omens book
I am so excited for this book.
I'm most excited for strix and sprites >//<
Between these two recent live stream interviews, something that got mentioned were a pair of weapon pages with specific mentions for Azarketi and Kobolds that I noticed. I gotta say that, while I did not expect it, I am excited at the prospect of new Kobold weapons.
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The Ancestry feat to become large could be related to Gnomes. A Spriggan heritage would be interesting and they have that ability. Could also be related to the Ifrit, as that is a common ability for it.
The Ancestry feat to become large could be related to Gnomes. A Spriggan heritage would be interesting and they have that ability. Could also be related to the Ifrit, as that is a common ability for it.
I don't think we're getting any gnome feats in this book! Maybe ifrit, yeah. Maybe fleshwarp?
The Ancestry feat to become large could be related to Gnomes. A Spriggan heritage would be interesting and they have that ability. Could also be related to the Ifrit, as that is a common ability for it.I don't think we're getting any gnome feats in this book! Maybe ifrit, yeah. Maybe fleshwarp?
Nope, no Core-ancestry-related feats or heritages. At most, there'll be mentions of how the Core ancestries will react to the non-Core ancestries in a cultural sense. But no mechanical bits for them, no.
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Between these two recent live stream interviews, something that got mentioned were a pair of weapon pages with specific mentions for Azarketi and Kobolds that I noticed. I gotta say that, while I did not expect it, I am excited at the prospect of new Kobold weapons.
Every time I hear a customer say, "They made something I did not know I needed," I'm more convinced of my coworker's genius. Before I came to work here my own home-brew group would laugh every time Paizo published something we had invented in-house and we were already doing, saying, "Paizo has the room bugged." Good stuff.
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I just remembered that the name of the sprite heritage mentioned in the interview with Luis yesterday was "Malixie", though I do not know the correct spelling. Hopefully, the Atomie and Liminal will also be heritages for the Sprite.
By my tracking, this is what we have atm:
Ancestries:
1.Android
2.Fleshwarp
3.Kayal; Fetchling
4.Kitsune
5.Sprite
6.Strix
7.???
8.???
*I'm not counting Azarketi, only because they were meant being introduced in Lo: Absalom/Free Supplement, and may not be counted as a one of the "new" Ancestries.*
Heritages:
1.Aphorite
2.Ifrit
3.Ganzi
4.Oread
5.Suli
6.Sylph
7.Undine
8.???
I believe we were originally told that we would have 14 total in this book? I assumed these would be split evenly between the Ancestries and Heritages, to give us 7 each. With the Ganzi, that would be all seven Heritages. But, if it is being suggested that there is one more, along side one additional Ancestry, then that would bring the total count to 16 new options, 8 each. Leaving us two Ancestries, one of which may be capable of flight, if previous statements are accurate.
EDIT: Have they said anything about the Wyvarans? At this point, I'm sure they would remain an offshoot of Kobold instead of a possible Heritage for them, which I originally assumed they would be.
It is not an even split. Luis told us that during the Find Your Path podcast yesterday. It'll be 8 versatile heritages and 6 full-on ancestries.
Also, Luis was kind enough to let me know on Twitter that the entry he wrote for the LO:AG book is the last unrevealed content. So whatever the last versatile heritage is, it'll be by Luis Loza!
Also also, the Strix was the hinted fly-speed ancestry. They get wings at level 1 (only helps with jumping unless the GM allows it to fly via the rules page in the book) and an ancestry feat to fly at level 5. So it'll be the ancestry with the fastest access to a fly speed in 2E so far.
Unless they have further secrets, this book comes with six ancestries (all known as of today) and eight heritages (all but one known).
I see. I haven't watched the Find the Path stream yet. Six Ancestries and either Heritages is still quite a few. I'm still putting my money on Skinwalkers as the last Heritage.
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I see. I haven't watched the Find the Path stream yet. Six Ancestries and either Heritages is still quite a few. I'm still putting my money on Skinwalkers as the last Heritage.
I'd say that this is both -unlikely- and -undesireable-. The way in which versatile heritages work would mean that you'd switch your... human or gnome heritage into a versatile heritage: Skinwalker and get low light vision (or darkvision) in exchange for that... But then you'd still need to spend your 1st level ancestry feat to get an actual skinwalker "heritage" or "type" (a lineage feat).
Firstly, this would majorly suck when compared to the fact that it could just be a new race with different heritages for different kinds of skinwalkers AND it would lead to the weird situation where you can be a "generic" skinwalker with no particular animal to tie in, and that would be... both weird and disapointing.Mechanically so far, the versatile heritages suck when compared to full ancestries and especially when compared to core ancestries. Skinwalkers were one of my favorite PFS1 races, and they deserve better than to be reduced to "whoo you got low light vision JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE".
IF (and I really hope they didn't go for versatile heritage skinwalkers), IF they went for versatile - I know it was revealed that "some versatile heritages get something other than just LowLight/DarkVision" - Then I hope they made the versatile skinwalker heritage into: "No Low Light vision for you - instead, pick an additional ancestry feat, but it must be one of the skinwalker heritage feats" to give them some actual variety and stop them from being just another "Don't pick this cause you only get better eyesight".
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To make a singular Hybrid race of people that relies on the union of a Werecreature with a non-Werecreature in such a way that their genetics would allow for all extent Ancestries to act as a base is what I'd say is unlikely. Versatile Heritages are here to stay and, while maybe undesirable to some, are meant to fill a niche of representing groups of people who are not true Ancestries. Skinwalkers are not a true Ancestry. So the idea that they would somehow be made into one simply isn't going to happen, when so many others races from PF1 have gotten this treatment. There is nothing saying that Skinwalkers would be presented in such a way as to be exactly as other Heritages have been. In fact, one of the Versatile Heritages we have gotten recently had rules that were more than simple sense enhancement.
I'd be willing to wager a Skinwalker Heritage would have an animal option baked into it. What exactly that would entail I am unsure. But, being so intrinsically tied to the identity of the race, they would NEED to choose an animal form at the time of creation, also likely gaining either a sense enhancement or a natural attack depending on their animal. Further, Lineages are very much a thing, utilized to further identify the who and what of each of the Heritages. So one could easily take a Lineage that denotes a Skinwalker as being a descendant of a Werewolf or Weretiger, and from there add additional feats that further work to make each of them different. Even if they were an Ancestry, the base options of PF1 Skinwalkers were not all that robust. Anything outside of a natural attack, senses, or bestial/animal choice is more likely to come from Feats than the Ancestry or Heritage itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ability scores being altered by a Heritage, Versatile or otherwise, is something that isn't being done in PF2. So even if it were a full Ancestry, with Heritages tied to each specific form of Werecreature, any ability adjustments would be unlikely to happen, and they would still only alter things like senses and natural attacks at most. Any abilities such as changing into ones animal or hybrid form would defiantly not be a base ability. Just as the Strix won't have the options for flight till level 4.
At the end of the day, Skinwalkers are a subspecies and offshoot of other races. I don't expect a true Ancestry of them because they aren't a true race of people in Pathfinders setting. So, a Versatile Heritage with a robust number of feats that one can take in addition to all the feats granted by the base Ancestry is where I'm certain they will go. Unless, they suddenly become a true breeding race of people that don't need either parent race to exist. I'll admit, Versatile Heritages aren't the perfect solution for ones desire to play a Dwarf who has a Werewolf crouching somewhere within their family line with all the bells and whistles that come with such things. But, it does create a space where that same Werewolf can sire offspring with Humans, Elves, Gnomes, and the like, while keeping the base capabilities of ones Ancestry and major component of their identity. It allows for far more options.
Firstly, this would majorly suck when compared to the fact that it could just be a new race with different heritages for different kinds of skinwalkers AND it would lead to the weird situation where you can be a "generic" skinwalker with no particular animal to tie in, and that would be... both weird and disapointing.
Having a generic skinwalker with no particular animal tie would be exactly as they were in PF1. Check out the race entry on AoN
You might find it weird and disappointing for that option to be brought forward, but someone else might find it weird and disappointing that their character no longer exists in PF2. So I rather hope they keep that option no matter what.
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Okay, a fair point that they used to have a "default" heritage too (although why would anyone use it from mechanical point of view when the animal specific ones were strictly better), but as a full-fledged ancestry, they could still have a "yeah we don't know what werecreature you're related to" generic heritage.
Just a comparison between true ancestries and the versatile heritages:
I think the ancestries and heritages should be balanced, yes. I'm not saying aasimars (and tieflings and skinwalkers and the rest) need to be as oppressively good as they used to be in 1e, but: Compare human and aasimar: Human: Used to get an extra skill point, and an extra feat, and one free ability boost. They now get: One extra Skill (stronger because less skills) (Even stronger because it's auto-upgraded) AND One Extra Feat (even stronger because you get either a class OR general feat) (Plus lots of other options for humans, but these are easily a straight 1-1 conversion)
Aasimar used to get: Insane amount of stuff. Like, way too much. Immune to some key spells, darkvision, daylight as a spell like ability, resistances, better ability scores, bonus to skills, extra language. Now reduced to: "lol you get low light vision" and "pick darkvision OR one of these niche lineage feats" (Angelkin is kinda OK I guess but nothing too shiny there, the options are generally speaking strictly inferior to the options provided to full races)
And that's what I fear what happens if Skinwalkers become a heritage.
What they could be as an ancestry:
Compare to Tengu: Innate Low Light Vision, Innate Natural Attack, cool heritages, couple good ancestry feats (storm's leash, weapon fam, squawk!) - a perfect template for a skinwalker ancestry
What they'll be as a heritage:
Compare to tiefling: "Low light vision. And do you want a natural attack, darkvision, or an actual animal type to go with that? You can only ever pick just one tho cause they are all level 1 locked!"
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OR: Imagine rolling a skinwalker and having to pick at level 1 between: Darkvision, a natural attack, scent, or "I'm a wolf/tiger/shark" and all of them being locked to level 1 like with tiefling... instead of being able to get all of them as you level up (or as in the tengu example, nearly all of them starting at lvl 1).
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But, being so intrinsically tied to the identity of the race, they would NEED to choose an animal form at the time of creation, also likely gaining either a sense enhancement or a natural attack depending on their animal.
I agree with you in this, and that's exactly why they -need- to be a true ancestry. There's next to 0 chance that somehow this versatile heritage would be -considerably better- than all other versatile heritages so far have been.
From the versatiles we've gotten, Paizo's course seems clear: You trade away a cool, unique, and interesting heritage options of your original race. In exchange you get something boring and borderline useless (so far, low light vision (plus a drawback for dhampir)), plus access to heavily restricted feats that don't really make up for your loss of heritage - but hey, at least your selection is now wider, even if the new options can not compete with your old options.
I'm partial to the term Therian/Therion or Zoan for Skinwalkers. They come from the terms Therianthropy and Zoanthropy. Therianthropy is a broader them used to describe a Werecreature of all kinds, since Lycan specifically denotes wolves. Kaimana makes me think of Cynanthropy, which relates to weredogs; and the delusion that someone is a deal dog. Likewise, Zoanthropy is also known as "Clinical lycanthropy", delusions that one could turn into an animal. Therian and Zoan both come from Greek worlds meaning "wild animal" and "animal" respectively. Both terms have been used in various media, especially games, when referencing people with similar transformative abilities. Some examples are Velvet Crowe, who is referred to as a Therion Daemon and possesses an arm reminiscent to the werewolves in the game; as well Bloody Roar, where Zoanthropes are humans who can change into beasts.
As a side not, Garou comes from old French and essentially means "Were", which would be fitting. But, it is mostly used when referring to the Rougarou or Loup-Garou, or French wereolves. Plus, we do have the Rougarou in Pathfinder already, and I personally have a thing against repeated word use and naming conventions
I am aware of the root of the word "garou". And Therianthrope. And indeed Lycnathrope, Zoanthrope, Cynanthrope, Kanaima (I misspelled it the first time, dyslexia), and Were-. Kanaima isn't even from the same hemisphere as Cynanthrope, let alone the same language group or meaning.
Kanaima and Garou (Rougarou specifically) are both terms used to refer to certain werecreatures in the Americas. There's others, but Chupacabra is too specific, Wendigo is as offensive as Skinwalkers, so all three would be less than ideal. Waheela I don't think is a shapechanger. Ukupanipo wouldn't work for a general term, but is a strong contender for the Shark Lineage.
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OR: Imagine rolling a skinwalker and having to pick at level 1 between: Darkvision, a natural attack, scent, or "I'm a wolf/tiger/shark" and all of them being locked to level 1 like with tiefling... instead of being able to get all of them as you level up (or as in the tengu example, nearly all of them starting at lvl 1).
EDIT:
But, being so intrinsically tied to the identity of the race, they would NEED to choose an animal form at the time of creation, also likely gaining either a sense enhancement or a natural attack depending on their animal.I agree with you in this, and that's exactly why they -need- to be a true ancestry. There's next to 0 chance that somehow this versatile heritage would be -considerably better- than all other versatile heritages so far have been.
From the versatiles we've gotten, Paizo's course seems clear: You trade away a cool, unique, and interesting heritage options of your original race. In exchange you get something boring and borderline useless (so far, low light vision (plus a drawback for dhampir)), plus access to heavily restricted feats that don't really make up for your loss of heritage - but hey, at least your selection is now wider, even if the new options can not compete with your old options.
I had to think before responding to you again. You may not be intentionally trolling, but it is pretty clear you already made up your mind and will not consider any possibility that it could work, including really obvious possibilities like Alternate Form being what the heritage gives out instead of Darkvision/Low-Light vision.
So I'm not really sure what purpose more conversation would serve.
I think Garou could work as a Versatile heritage, and I can see how to make it interesting (to me at least). If you disagree, then okay.
I'm listening to the podcast from yesterday (I still harbor a strong dislike for podcasts, by the way), and got really excited by a tidbit from Eleanor when she said the unrevealed ancestry was from Arcadia. I had a moment where I was sure she had merely misspoken and meant the heritage, as I through Strix were from that one part of Ravounel. But...Strix are indeed native to Arcadia, even if none of them live there anymore.
It sounds like Kitsune are getting a version of Elfbane that works against Divine magic. Apparently some kitsune are celestial envoys, and they are able to pull the professional courtesy card to make Divine magic less effective.
Perikin is a confirmed lineage for Aasimar.
There will be 2 pages of weapons and other items included that tie into Ancestry entries.
Also "boring" is not a word I'd ever use to describe Planar Scions. No their stuff isn't "better", that's entirely intentional.
I disagree with Tomppa for the most part, but I am hoping the geniekin get stuff other than vision boost as their baseline ability. Like Ifrit could get fire resistance, Sylphs could get Deflecting Gale, Oreads get more HP, stuff like that.
I find it encouraging that none of the Geniekin in Bestiary 2 have either darkvision or low-light vision, so those more options might be on the table.
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I'd love to play my Witchwolves again.
Also "boring" is not a word I'd ever use to describe Planar Scions. No their stuff isn't "better", that's entirely intentional.
I agree that while "versatile heritage basically just gives you access to more feats" isn't most exciting option, I think its fine mechanically.
Same way I don't think that versatile heritage feats should be strictly better than your normal feats :p I don't generally pick ancestries for mechanical benefits, I pick them to play that ancestry and it'd be silly if planar scions were "meta" choice AGAIN
Also "boring" is not a word I'd ever use to describe Planar Scions. No their stuff isn't "better", that's entirely intentional.I disagree with Tomppa for the most part, but I am hoping the geniekin get stuff other than vision boost as their baseline ability. Like Ifrit could get fire resistance, Sylphs could get Deflecting Gale, Oreads get more HP, stuff like that.
I find it encouraging that none of the Geniekin in Bestiary 2 have either darkvision or low-light vision, so those more options might be on the table.
Your post made me curious enough to deconstruct the Geniekin in the Bestiary 2. After checking their descriptions for sensory abilities and then looking at defensive abilities, HP, AC, etc., I surmise that their heritages will grant the following rather than low-light vision and/or darkvision:
Ifrit - Resistance to Fire based on level (So, Resistance to Fire 1 at level 1)
Oread - +1 AC and -5 Speed
Suli - Elemental Bulwark Reaction
Sylph - Deflecting Gale Reaction
Undine - Swim Speed 25 feet
The Oread confuses me. I wonder if they get some version of Unburdened Iron as their speed is actually 5' faster than what it should be due to their Full Plate.
Their AC, saves, speed, reactions, abilities, and HP all otherwise seem correct for a 1st level Human Fighter, and nothing else jumps out.
The rest of your list seems spot on though.
But, taking a Versatile Heritage isn't baring you from anything relating to the base Ancestry, only those things relating to particular heritages tied to that Ancestry. And, in turn, you gain access to not only the base abilities of the Versatile Heriateg, which, in most case, has been augmented vision of some sort (yes, not the most exciting thing), but also access to the plethora of Feats relating to that Heritage. Likewise, taking a Versatile Heritage doesn't suddenly exclude of dismiss the fact that you are a particular Ancestry; you can continue to take Feats tied to that Ancestry. So I'm failing to see where taking a Versatile Heritage is somehow detrimental to the base Ancestry or somehow robs you of options other than the Heritages tied to that Ancestry, which you can only take one of anyways. So it isn't like you suddenly lose a bunch of options that you could have taken later. Whether you decide to be a Skinwalker Dwarf or and Ancient-Blooded Dwarf, you can't somehow also take the Anvil Dwarf Heritage (in most cases anyways). Being a member of a Versatile Heritage only expands your potential, while making your choice of being a Human Ifrit or a Elf Dhampir more mechanically meaningful than just being flavor text essentially.
But, I digress. I stand by the idea that a Skinwalker base Heritage would likely give either Low-light vision or natural attack in some way. After looking at the PF1, which I couldn't do before, I'm actually thinking what they might gain is the ability to change into their Beastial Form, gaining a Bite or Claw attack while in it and maybe adding Low-light vision as a constant ability alongside this. Still gaining the "boring" sense enhancement, but with something more. I think Lineages will potentially cover the specifics of the who and what you are descended from. But, that could also be covered by the Heritage choice itself as a purely flavor related choice until you take later Feats that will influence it, like taking animal forms. The spell-like abilities they have will defiently be a Feat choice as well. I see Speak with animal being granted as a 1st level Feat, while all the Alternate Spell-likes would be covered by your 1st level Lineage.
The Oread confuses me. I wonder if they get some version of Unburdened Iron as their speed is actually 5' faster than what it should be due to their Full Plate.
Their AC, saves, speed, reactions, abilities, and HP all otherwise seem correct for a 1st level Human Fighter, and nothing else jumps out.
The rest of your list seems spot on though.
You know what, I totally forgot about the speed penalty to strength aspect of full plate armor. So, I double checked and you are right, it is a wonky assessment. The speed in the Bestiary accounts for the +4 STR modifier (as an 18, of course), which is over 16, and according to the core rulebook only reduces their speed by 5 instead of 10 for the full plate armor and with a human's base speed of 25 feet it makes sense that it should be a final speed of 20 feet.
In the end, Oreads should just get a +1 AC for their heritage ability.
Do we wager Fetchlings will just have Darkvision?
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I had to think before responding to you again. You may not be intentionally trolling, but it is pretty clear you already made up your mind and will not consider any possibility that it could work, including really obvious possibilities like Alternate Form being what the heritage gives out instead of Darkvision/Low-Light vision.OR: Imagine rolling a skinwalker and having to pick at level 1 between: Darkvision, a natural attack, scent, or "I'm a wolf/tiger/shark" and all of them being locked to level 1 like with tiefling... instead of being able to get all of them as you level up (or as in the tengu example, nearly all of them starting at lvl 1).
EDIT:
But, being so intrinsically tied to the identity of the race, they would NEED to choose an animal form at the time of creation, also likely gaining either a sense enhancement or a natural attack depending on their animal.I agree with you in this, and that's exactly why they -need- to be a true ancestry. There's next to 0 chance that somehow this versatile heritage would be -considerably better- than all other versatile heritages so far have been.
From the versatiles we've gotten, Paizo's course seems clear: You trade away a cool, unique, and interesting heritage options of your original race. In exchange you get something boring and borderline useless (so far, low light vision (plus a drawback for dhampir)), plus access to heavily restricted feats that don't really make up for your loss of heritage - but hey, at least your selection is now wider, even if the new options can not compete with your old options.
Also "boring" is not a word I'd ever use to describe Planar Scions. No their stuff isn't "better", that's entirely intentional.I disagree with Tomppa for the most part, but I am hoping the geniekin get stuff other than vision boost as their baseline ability. Like Ifrit could get fire resistance, Sylphs could get Deflecting Gale, Oreads get more HP, stuff like that.
I find it encouraging that none of the Geniekin in Bestiary 2 have either darkvision or low-light vision, so those more options might be on the table.
Your post made me curious enough to deconstruct the Geniekin in the Bestiary 2. After checking their descriptions for sensory abilities and then looking at defensive abilities, HP, AC, etc., I surmise that their heritages will grant the following rather than low-light vision and/or darkvision:
Ifrit - Resistance to Fire based on level (So, Resistance to Fire 1 at level 1)
Oread - +1 AC and -5 Speed
Suli - Elemental Bulwark Reaction
Sylph - Deflecting Gale Reaction
Undine - Swim Speed 25 feet
I really hope you two are correct or at least on the right tracks - both with what Skinwalkers might gain as part of their heritage and what the geniekinds might get. I know it's been said that we'll get "something other than just low light vision" from some heritages - I just find it extremely unlikely that these new heritage options would be so much more interesting, useful, and straight up better than the previous standard of Low Light vision.
It's just that I'm not very optimistic about it (or rather, I'm straight up pessimistic about it) given that the current options make versatile heritages more of a punishment or drawback, rather than a reward or a boost.
(IF we do get stuff like "+1 ac, -5ft speed" or "reaction: resistance against element" or "reaction: Ac vs ranged attack" or the like, then Paizo should really return to the current versatiles at some point and bring them up to the new (Better and More interesting) standard.)
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Again, Versatile Heritages are not improvements and they're not supposed to be.
You pick a Planar Scion cause you want to have ties to the Planes or be descended from whatever type of Immortal.
You play a Witchwolf because you want a fluffy tail. Okay that last one might be specifically me, but the point stands, it's for aesthetics, not powerups.
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Not saying it should be -strictly better- but it definitely should not be -a downgrade-. To take your tail example: Yeah, I want a tiefling because I want a tail. Too bad I have to choose between a tail (unarmed attack), darkvision, or an actual lineage feat, because they are all locked to "lvl 1 only, no retraining" - and spending Both your Heritage AND a level 1 ancestry feat to get a tail that MERELY removes "nonlethal" trait from your unarmed attacks (tail: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, unarmed, vs Fist: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, Unarmed, Nonlethal) isn't a return you'd expect on spending two major options at lvl 1 when compared to what other races can get for the same price - it's not even a sidegrade, it's just a downgrade.
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I do think it would be bad game design if versatile heritage ancestry feats were just "better than normal ancestry feats".
Though I also agree that I wouldn't have minded if the base heritage for "buying in" had cooler pros than just low light/dark vision.
But I don't really agree it being a "downgrade". Its not a "weak" bonus in that some of the ancestries already have low light or dark vision as bonus for heritages, such as elves, so clearly dark vision upgrade is comparable to other heritages power wise :p Its only "downgrade" for ancestries that already have dark vision
I do agree though that versatile heritages feel more satisfying with ancestry paragon variant rule since you can get the flavorful parts of heritage much faster than normally
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Not saying it should be -strictly better- but it definitely should not be -a downgrade-. To take your tail example: Yeah, I want a tiefling because I want a tail. Too bad I have to choose between a tail (unarmed attack), darkvision, or an actual lineage feat, because they are all locked to "lvl 1 only, no retraining" - and spending Both your Heritage AND a level 1 ancestry feat to get a tail that MERELY removes "nonlethal" trait from your unarmed attacks (tail: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, unarmed, vs Fist: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, Unarmed, Nonlethal) isn't a return you'd expect on spending two major options at lvl 1 when compared to what other races can get for the same price - it's not even a sidegrade, it's just a downgrade.
1) It isn't a downgrade if you want to use your tail as a weapon.
2) You're only spending all that because you want to use the tail as a weapon, if you don't (and I don't), just take the Tiefling Heritage.
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Not saying it should be -strictly better- but it definitely should not be -a downgrade-. To take your tail example: Yeah, I want a tiefling because I want a tail. Too bad I have to choose between a tail (unarmed attack), darkvision, or an actual lineage feat, because they are all locked to "lvl 1 only, no retraining" - and spending Both your Heritage AND a level 1 ancestry feat to get a tail that MERELY removes "nonlethal" trait from your unarmed attacks (tail: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, unarmed, vs Fist: 1d4 B, Agile, Finesse, Unarmed, Nonlethal) isn't a return you'd expect on spending two major options at lvl 1 when compared to what other races can get for the same price - it's not even a sidegrade, it's just a downgrade.1) It isn't a downgrade if you want to use your tail as a weapon.
2) You're only spending all that because you want to use the tail as a weapon, if you don't (and I don't), just take the Tiefling Heritage.
I do think you are missing that they meant "if I want to be both pitborn and have natural weapon, well I can't have both because both are level 1 options".
I don't really agree it being a downgrade since they are saying "Its downgrade because you used heritage to get just a tail that deals weapon" when I wouldn't judge all tiefling feats on basis of having to had use heritage to get them. BUT it is definitely restrictive and underwhelming and feels much better with ancestry paragon as you would get two ancestry feats at level 1 instead.
Though I'm not sure if versatile heritages giving you one extra ancestry feat at level 1 would be too powerful even if it was restricted to ancestry feats you get from the heritage itself. It would definitely spark arguments of "but you then just get plain more feats with versatile heritage!" though I think it would be more satisfying mechanically especially for folk who complain that they feel like they could have had cooler mechanics for heritage with other options
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That was a part of what they were saying, most of the complaints were on upgrading the tail as a weapon, which, again, is only if you want to use the tail as a weapon, not if you just want a tail.
And also while they're both level 1 options only the -born are Lineage Feats, Form of the Fiend (the unnarmed attack) isn't level locked.
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Ah so it is, my apologies there.
Not having that be level locked is a valid complaint in my opinion, since a lot of immortals have unnamed attacks, so having to pick between the attack or the linage that grants the attack more or less is rather off-putting.
The point about aesthetics vs mechanics still holds true though, you can have a tail, you only need Form of the Fiend if you want to use the tail as a weapon.
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Indeed, the other one of my gripes is that the restrictions feel random and arbitrary.
Fiendish Eyes (darkvision): Special You can select this feat only at 1st level, and you can't retrain into or out of this feat.
Form of the Fiend: Special You can select this feat only at 1st level, and you can't retrain into or out of this feat, nor can you change the type of attack you gained.
However:
While you *can't* learn to kick with your hooves past lvl 1, you CAN pick a feat to get your hooves +5ft movement speed (Nimble Hooves)
While you *can't* learn to smack stuff with your tail past lvl 1, you *can* get a tail feat at lvl 5 to let you say "I use my tail instead of my hand" in some situations (But honestly, I haven't been able to find an actual mechanical use for the feat).
Humans can get darkvision later. Ratfolks can get a natural attack whenever they want. It's frustrating when the level 1 restrictions don't feel like they've been made because of power concerns (tiefling unarmed attacks mostly suck, natural attacks are about useless in this edition when punching no longer provokes, and still threatens enemies) but they rather feel like they've been made for flavor reasons ("Ratfolks can get bite anytime they want because they can regrow their teet, but you can't pick a tail unarmed strike or a hoof kick later because you need to have tails or hooves from your birth" except that you can suddenly take them later if you take them for speed or "handyness" instead of a natural attack")