Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

...wouldn't be the first time someone released 'finished product' as a form of 'group-sourced Beta-testing'.

...probably wouldn't be the last, either, if that were the case.

I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

It's dex hit, str damage, add 1/2 shifter level to damage. shaventalz posted a link if you need it.

I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.

I don't have the same faith, but I am REALLY hoping the team eventually publicly acknowledges that changes need to be made... both in the Shifter class and some of its archetypes, and perhaps with the way they're playtesting. That will do a lot to restore my sense that Paizo is trying to uphold a high standard of quality with their hardcover books.

For me, Pathfinder is founded on two things that no other RPG has: Awesome Adventure Paths integrated into a rich world, and a huge breadth of character options. I'm loving the AP's and I think they're actually getting better over time. If the character classes / feats / archetypes is starting to drop, that's gonna hurt.

I'm willing to overlook a certain percentage of crappy Feats and archetypes, but when the classes themselves seem rushed and uninspired, I actually feel a bit worried. I also get a lot more critical of what else the book has to offer.

Optimally, every single Feat and Archetype should be compelling and usable. There is no reason to have a certain percentage of Archetypes that is unusable (Oozemorph).

I will eventually write a review, but I'm posting here to voice the importance of a little more transparency from Paizo on class and archetype development - now, and in the future. I'm only saying this because I want to give contructive feedback, and I'm genuinely concerned that the current strategy is going to lead to more problems in the future.

I don't want to feel like a playtester on a $45 (CDN) book.

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.

I don't have the same faith, but I am REALLY hoping the team eventually publicly acknowledges that changes need to be made... both in the Shifter class and some of its archetypes, and perhaps with the way they're playtesting. That will do a lot to restore my sense that Paizo is trying to uphold a high standard of quality with their hardcover books.

For me, Pathfinder is founded on two things that no other RPG has: Awesome Adventure Paths integrated into a rich world, and a huge breadth of character options. I'm loving the AP's and I think they're actually getting better over time. If the character classes / feats / archetypes is starting to drop, that's gonna hurt.

I'm willing to overlook a certain percentage of crappy Feats and archetypes, but when the classes themselves seem rushed and uninspired, I actually feel a bit worried. I also get a lot more critical of what else the book has to offer.

Optimally, every single Feat and Archetype should be compelling and usable. There is no reason to have a certain percentage of Archetypes that is unusable (Oozemorph).

I will eventually write a review, but I'm posting here to voice the importance of a little more transparency from Paizo on class and archetype development - now, and in the future. I'm only saying this because I want to give contructive feedback, and I'm genuinely concerned that the current strategy is going to lead to more problems in the future.

I don't want to feel like a playtester on a $45 (CDN) book.

This book, like any other, is not only for players.

Nor it does not contain just the class and feats/archetypes chapters.

If you're so anxious about your 45 Canadian Dollars *and* presumably you have a strong opinion about Paizo's quality record, why won't you settle for PDFs and/or wait until the book is out in the wild for a while? Seems like a self-defeating behaviour here.

Hoping we can get some clarification on the Greater Tyrants Totem fairly soon considering the damage of its swallow while ability is unknown as of now.

If anyone wants to help FAQ it here is the thread link.

Feros wrote:

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Thank you!

Feros wrote:

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

It's dex hit, str damage, add 1/2 shifter level to damage. shaventalz posted a link if you need it.

Thanks!

Feros wrote:

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...

shaventalz wrote:

Feros wrote:

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...

That's how all of the FAQs are categorized on the site. The Core Rulebook is an exception, but why that's the case I don't know.

I know it's an obvious error and something we already knew about.

But I gotta say with how much criticism has been thrown toward the Shifter it's not really a good look that the first change Paizo makes is nerfing it.

They had that one ready to go before the product was released.

I dare say the other questions people have frequently asked/issues they’ve raised only really came onto the PDT’s radar in the last couple of weeks (and who knows how long it takes to line everything and everyone up to address them?)

They had that one ready to go before the product was released.

I dare say the other questions people have frequently asked/issues they’ve raised only really came onto the PDT’s radar in the last couple of weeks (and who knows how long it takes to line everything and everyone up to address them?)

so about a month or two we have playable variant of sfifter class in srd and our downloads pages. as i said in my review class is good but needs FAQ treat to handle the mess it is in then few book supports and we can look for the next class in ultimate festivals book

BenS wrote:

shaventalz wrote:

Feros wrote:

Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...

That's how all of the FAQs are categorized on the site. The Core Rulebook is an exception, but why that's the case I don't know.

Alex, if you look at random hardcovers--beyond the CRB--you'll see what I'm talking about w/ the clear FAQ tab right next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion. I just clicked on the main pages for the 1st Bestiary and Advanced Class Guide, as a random sample, and there they were. I can infer from Feros' comment he was expecting to find that FAQ tab in the exact place I was...

I didn't see a FAQ & Updates tab for the Advanced Class Guide. Most hardbacks have them, but a few don't.

I didn't see a FAQ & Updates tab for the Advanced Class Guide. Most hardbacks have them, but a few don't.

Oops; I meant the APG, not the ACG. But I'm glad you acknowledged my point; that most of the HC's have the FAQ tab right there on the main page...I don't understand why that wouldn't be the default for all of them.

It could be related to when there's been a reprint. Perhaps that's what triggers adding the FAQ/Update tab.

It could be related to when there's been a reprint. Perhaps that's what triggers adding the FAQ/Update tab.

ACG got a second printing, though. If it was strictly printing-based, it should have an FAQ tab.

Sure. I mean they're also behind so perhaps it's intended to be printing-triggered but is merely printing-related.

It just seemed to me (from a somewhat cursory glance) that it may have been related as earlier books seemed to have a tab and later ones didn't.

Another possibility is that they're gradually rolling out the feature in order of publication.

Has anyone compared the preexisting Winter Witch (the archetype only; not the PrC) w/ the Season Witch?

I admit I have an imperfect understanding of the latter, but I'm curious as to how the wintry aspects of the Season Witch compare to the Winter Witch.

Owls that can't fly, bears that can't hug (no grab), elemental damage for the elemental shifter that's unlisted. The were-touched has a capstone it can't use. Does anyone else feel like they accidentally printed the rough draft of the shifter instead of the finished product?

Not that they'll ever admit it >.>

Has anyone compared the preexisting Winter Witch (the archetype only; not the PrC) w/ the Season Witch?

I admit I have an imperfect understanding of the latter, but I'm curious as to how the wintry aspects of the Season Witch compare to the Winter Witch.

Since they both restrict your patron choice, they aren't compatible by RAW, I'd think? (grumble grumble grumble)

That being said, the Winter Witch is more restrictive with spells - requiring you to give up all [fire] spells whatsoever for a +1 DC to your [cold] spells, whereas the Season Witch (Winter) gives you a +1 DC to your [cold] spells, no ifs or buts.

I have a question about Shifter's Edge. What was involved with the decision to treat this as a feat rather than making it a feature of the class? Even the recent version of this seems to be a must-have feat. One last thing, was there a reason you went with half the class as a bonus as opposed to keeping the damage the same as the class level, but making the damage bonus a precision bonus, much like the Swashbuckler?

Thanks

A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.

Shifter iconic stats anywhere?

A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.

Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.

Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

Using the vigilante because i think thats what it ended up as

Lethal Grace (Ex): The vigilante combines strength and speed into incredibly deadly attacks. He gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and if he already has the Weapon Finesse feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Finesse. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls. This bonus damage is not reduced or increased if the vigilante is wielding a weapon two-handed or in an off-hand.

A strength shifter isn't going to use their dex to hit and and an agility shifter is going to have an agile amulet of mighty fisticuffs so they won't use strength to damage.

Patrick McGrath wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.

Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

Using the vigilante because i think thats what it ended up as

Lethal Grace (Ex): The vigilante combines strength and speed into incredibly deadly attacks. He gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and if he already has the Weapon Finesse feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Finesse. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls. This bonus damage is not reduced or increased if the vigilante is wielding a weapon two-handed or in an off-hand.

A strength shifter isn't going to use their dex to hit and and an agility shifter is going to have an agile amulet of mighty fisticuffs so they won't use strength to damage.

Yea, it is most useful for those rare characters who don't dump either Str or Dex. If you manage to keep both high then in *theory* you could out damage someone who just uses an agile amulet of mighty fists. The thing is that it is very hard to do this without dumping your other stats.

[golblum mode]One could, hmmm... perhaps... hmmm... say that hmmm... nature seeks ermmm... balance yes... hrmmmm hmmmm ermmm...[/goldblum mode]

Just saw the FAQ on the Shifter damage. As if the Shifter wasn't weak enough already. Ugh.

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.

I'm also wondering if that's not prudent at this point....

But lately, between all the re-printed mechanics, and now the Shifter disappointment....I'm thinking I should be a bit more discerning....

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

Coffee Demon wrote:

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.

I'm also wondering if that's not prudent at this point....

I have always just purchased pretty much everything coming out...and historically have not regretted it.

But lately, between all the re-printed mechanics, and now the Shifter disappointment....I'm thinking I should be a bit more discerning....

Yes, and I hate to do that because I play the crap out of this RPG and I want to support it. But this book makes me wary and (I'll be honest) a bit afraid for the future of the game.

I realize it's just one book, but I frikkin' LOVE every other hardcover book I've bought, which is all of them except (oddly enough) the Book of the Damned and Ultimate Villains. Those two didn't have as much of what I wanted, so there's more 'lack of support' that I don't like to do.

I still think a lot has to do with the heavy investment into Starfinder. No matter what Paizo says, I think the attention has been split and perhaps the quality has come down. I hope Planar Adventures turns things around - but I don't know if that will be a great indicator, because it's at least 50% plane fluff, which doesn't require playtesting.

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

I also fear that response, because it would mean that Paizo as a business can't respond, react and adapt to consumer feedback.

As the customer, it's not our job to go gentle on feedback in case we make the business defensive.

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There isn't one publicly available.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

From what I can tell we lose "SLAs count as spells for everything" because someone didn't want people getting early entry to the Evangelist prestige class they made...

nighttree wrote:

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

From what I can tell we lose "SLAs count as spells for everything" because someone didn't want people getting early entry to the Evangelist prestige class they made...

Pretty sure it was all the Aasimar Mystic Theurges in PFS.

Anything to keep a viable build down.

Nah.

It's more along the lines of 'if a thing is too good and *everyone* seems to be taking it, it's too good'.

Which, to me right now, pretty much sums up Shifter. About the only good thing it seems to have in it's favor is dipping?

medtec28 wrote:

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

nighttree wrote:

medtec28 wrote:

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

The Advanced Class Guide had an open playtest, and was the most error filled product to date, with a suite of problems for many classes, which had to get patched after release.

Open Playtests do not necessarily automatically produce quality content.

medtec28 wrote:

nighttree wrote:

medtec28 wrote:

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

The Advanced Class Guide had an open playtest, and was the most error filled product to date, with a suite of problems for many classes, which had to get patched after release.

Open Playtests do not necessarily automatically produce quality content.

I agree, that was the beginning of the "Rush it out and patch it later" trend that seems to be the new Paizo.

There were other flaws with one particular text which bear not repeating here -- if a discussion about them were to continue, a new thread or the product itself may be the best place for it.

Starting a new thread about playtests may be the best way to address that concern, as well.

I was looking at Shifter again tonight, and came to the realization that they actually need to 'Feat Dump' at least two or three Feats into Mutated Shape to get a full five natural attacks per round if the form has few attacks...

I was looking at Shifter again tonight, and came to the realization that they actually need to 'Feat Dump' at least two or three Feats into Mutated Shape to get a full five natural attacks per round if the form has few attacks...

Base shifter can get 5 without a feat. Weretouched can easily have 6 primary natural attacks, again without feats. This is, of course, if you pick the correct form and NEVER leave it for any kind of utility.

Secondly, the feat doesn't have a special section saying it can be taken more than once...

But it also doesn't have any special section saying it CAN'T be taken more than once, either.

*is trying to figure out if that was deliberate or design flaw*

But it also doesn't have any special section saying it CAN'T be taken more than once, either.

*is trying to figure out if that was deliberate or design flaw*

All feats can only be taken once unless they specifically say otherwise.