Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Wild, untamed lands hold a wealth of mystery and danger, providing the perfect backdrop for heroic adventure. Whether adventurers are climbing mountains in search of a dragon's lair, carving their way through the jungle, or seeking a long-lost holy city covered by desert sands, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness gives them the tools to survive the wilds. A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes. Overviews of druidic sects and rituals, as well as new archetypes, character options, spells, and more, round out the latest contribution to the Pathfinder RPG rules!

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness is an invaluable hardcover companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness includes:

  • The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!
  • Archetypes for alchemists, barbarians, bards, druids, hunters, investigators, kineticists, paladins, rangers, rogues, slayers, witches, and more!
  • Feats and magic items for characters of all sorts granting mastery over the perils of nature and enabling them to harvest natural power by cultivating magical plants.
  • Dozens of spells to channel, protect, or thwart the powers of natural environs.
  • New and expanded rules to push your animal companions, familiars, and mounts to wild new heights.
  • A section on the First World with advice, spells, and other features to integrate the fey realm into your campaign.
  • Systems for exploring new lands and challenging characters with natural hazards and strange terrain both mundane and feytouched.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-986-8

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Rulebook Subscription.

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Another Great Hardback Update Collection!

5/5

Ultimate Wilderness is a much better book than some reviewers might lead you to believe. You get the new shifter class - which has had some basic errata since release - along with great archetypes for most of the other classes to help them fit into a wilderness-based campaign.

It's a great book to help players prepping to play something like Kingmaker or Ironfang Invasion. You get new spells, feats and a new exploration mode.

The book itself maintains the high quality of work that most Paizo products exhibit. The art in this book is some of my favorite in any of the hardback collections. There are a few updated spells that needed errata, such as snowball.

As a fan, I really like that several of the archetypes convert the flavor of many Game of Thrones characters into Pathfinder mechanics. What more could you ask for?


Lots of ptential, but none of it really sticks

2/5

I was extremely excited for this publication, so it's rather depressing how disappointing the books contents turned out to be.

The shifter class was an interesting idea, but when put down on paper is just druidic wild shape with hunter focus, in the form of aspects. It, unfortunately, never surpasses the druid in the wild shape department, and is, in fact, rather limited, and the temporary nature of all the aspects means that the shifter isn't terribly impressive in that regard either. The archetypes, both for the shifter and other classes, are interesting, but several suffer from massive drawbacks, for little to no gain. Like taking on druidic weapon/armor proficiencies and restrictions, including losing abilities for wearing metal, but don't gain any significant power to mkae up for it.

The new rules expansions are, for the most part, only thrown off by some conflicting skill applications (survival to harvest poison, but heal to take internal organ trophies?) but these are easy to ignore, or fix by homebrew. So these chapters are the most stable and useful of the lot.

One of the most exciting discoveries was the Cultivate Magic Plants feat, allowing you to grow plants that copy spell effects, but the price tag attached to them, especially when attached to something with the considerable disadvantages of being an immobile magical item, makes it entirely useless next to the crafting cost of regular magical items, especially if you have a GM that's willing to allow players to use the rules on creating new magical items. Just for an example, a goodberry bush can fully feed 2 people per day forever... for 4000 GP to craft. While you could make an item to infinitely cast goodberry for 2000 gp if you have to wear it, or better yet create food and water (for about 30000).

In conclusion, the book has a lot of cool stuff in it, but only for GMs. Players won't be able to make good use of many of the archetypes and feats as they revolve too much around staying in a single environment or working with nonsensical restrictions. While many of the feats are just too focused (or expensive) to be useful except to an NPC. GMs, grab it, it's got good stuff, but players will (and should) probably stick to what they've already got.


Everything I wanted from Ultimate Wilderness

4/5

Great race write ups, a fun new class (that doesn't require a ton of source books to play) and tons of information and systems to run a wilderness adventure or spice up the wilderness sections of any game. Definitely happy to add this one to my bookshelf.


Reprinted material, lack of clarity

1/5

First off, I'm a huge fan of Pathfinder. But I'm not a fan of "Ultimate Wilderness." There are a number of issues with the content in the book, mostly the clarity of language. A lot of the rules seem unclear and not straightforward. The shifter is the biggest example of this.
To be honest I was looking forward to the shifter, being far more robust than it actually is. And I understand that this is my issue with what I expected from them, but what built up my anticipation of the shifter was the quality of past classes released by Paizo: summoner, alchemist, witch, bloodrager, investigator, brawler, spiritualist, medium (even if it isn't harrowed), magus, ninja, hunter and so on and so forth.
Past that, I'm not a big fan of the reprinted material because I buy the smaller books. If I'm buying the smaller books why would I want to buy them again with a hardcover?
That being said, I'm still a big Pathfinder fan, but I'd like for future releases to take a different developmental cycle than what "Ultimate Wilderness" received. This book seems like it lacked editing and playtesting.


4/5


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...wouldn't be the first time someone released 'finished product' as a form of 'group-sourced Beta-testing'.

...probably wouldn't be the last, either, if that were the case.

I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.

Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.


Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(

It's dex hit, str damage, add 1/2 shifter level to damage. shaventalz posted a link if you need it.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.

I don't have the same faith, but I am REALLY hoping the team eventually publicly acknowledges that changes need to be made... both in the Shifter class and some of its archetypes, and perhaps with the way they're playtesting. That will do a lot to restore my sense that Paizo is trying to uphold a high standard of quality with their hardcover books.

For me, Pathfinder is founded on two things that no other RPG has: Awesome Adventure Paths integrated into a rich world, and a huge breadth of character options. I'm loving the AP's and I think they're actually getting better over time. If the character classes / feats / archetypes is starting to drop, that's gonna hurt.

I'm willing to overlook a certain percentage of crappy Feats and archetypes, but when the classes themselves seem rushed and uninspired, I actually feel a bit worried. I also get a lot more critical of what else the book has to offer.

Optimally, every single Feat and Archetype should be compelling and usable. There is no reason to have a certain percentage of Archetypes that is unusable (Oozemorph).

I will eventually write a review, but I'm posting here to voice the importance of a little more transparency from Paizo on class and archetype development - now, and in the future. I'm only saying this because I want to give contructive feedback, and I'm genuinely concerned that the current strategy is going to lead to more problems in the future.

I don't want to feel like a playtester on a $45 (CDN) book.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Coffee Demon wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
I'm going to go back to having a little bit of faith and hoping that the team is aware of the issues as we've been bringing them forwards and are listening to the concerns, perhaps with wholesale revisions to classes/archetypes/problematic issues to address them.

I don't have the same faith, but I am REALLY hoping the team eventually publicly acknowledges that changes need to be made... both in the Shifter class and some of its archetypes, and perhaps with the way they're playtesting. That will do a lot to restore my sense that Paizo is trying to uphold a high standard of quality with their hardcover books.

For me, Pathfinder is founded on two things that no other RPG has: Awesome Adventure Paths integrated into a rich world, and a huge breadth of character options. I'm loving the AP's and I think they're actually getting better over time. If the character classes / feats / archetypes is starting to drop, that's gonna hurt.

I'm willing to overlook a certain percentage of crappy Feats and archetypes, but when the classes themselves seem rushed and uninspired, I actually feel a bit worried. I also get a lot more critical of what else the book has to offer.

Optimally, every single Feat and Archetype should be compelling and usable. There is no reason to have a certain percentage of Archetypes that is unusable (Oozemorph).

I will eventually write a review, but I'm posting here to voice the importance of a little more transparency from Paizo on class and archetype development - now, and in the future. I'm only saying this because I want to give contructive feedback, and I'm genuinely concerned that the current strategy is going to lead to more problems in the future.

I don't want to feel like a playtester on a $45 (CDN) book.

This book, like any other, is not only for players.

Nor it does not contain just the class and feats/archetypes chapters.

If you're so anxious about your 45 Canadian Dollars *and* presumably you have a strong opinion about Paizo's quality record, why won't you settle for PDFs and/or wait until the book is out in the wild for a while? Seems like a self-defeating behaviour here.

Grand Lodge

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Hoping we can get some clarification on the Greater Tyrants Totem fairly soon considering the damage of its swallow while ability is unknown as of now.

If anyone wants to help FAQ it here is the thread link.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shaventalz wrote:
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(
The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Thank you!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(
It's dex hit, str damage, add 1/2 shifter level to damage. shaventalz posted a link if you need it.

Thanks!


shaventalz wrote:
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(
The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.

Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...

Contributor

BenS wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(
The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.
Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...

That's how all of the FAQs are categorized on the site. The Core Rulebook is an exception, but why that's the case I don't know.


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I know it's an obvious error and something we already knew about.

But I gotta say with how much criticism has been thrown toward the Shifter it's not really a good look that the first change Paizo makes is nerfing it.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They had that one ready to go before the product was released.

I dare say the other questions people have frequently asked/issues they’ve raised only really came onto the PDT’s radar in the last couple of weeks (and who knows how long it takes to line everything and everyone up to address them?)


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Steve Geddes wrote:

They had that one ready to go before the product was released.

I dare say the other questions people have frequently asked/issues they’ve raised only really came onto the PDT’s radar in the last couple of weeks (and who knows how long it takes to line everything and everyone up to address them?)

so about a month or two we have playable variant of sfifter class in srd and our downloads pages. as i said in my review class is good but needs FAQ treat to handle the mess it is in then few book supports and we can look for the next class in ultimate festivals book


Alexander Augunas wrote:
BenS wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Feros wrote:
Throne wrote:

The FAQ for shifter's edge is up.

No fixes to the class though, so pretty moot.
Could someone link please? Been searching and I can't find it! :(
The FAQ page for Ultimate Wilderness is over here.
Wow, why so buried in the website? I thought--wrongly it appears--that FAQs for a hardcover book were a tab next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion, when you're looking at the main page for said hardcover...
That's how all of the FAQs are categorized on the site. The Core Rulebook is an exception, but why that's the case I don't know.

Alex, if you look at random hardcovers--beyond the CRB--you'll see what I'm talking about w/ the clear FAQ tab right next to Product Reviews & Product Discussion. I just clicked on the main pages for the 1st Bestiary and Advanced Class Guide, as a random sample, and there they were. I can infer from Feros' comment he was expecting to find that FAQ tab in the exact place I was...


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I didn't see a FAQ & Updates tab for the Advanced Class Guide. Most hardbacks have them, but a few don't.


David knott 242 wrote:

I didn't see a FAQ & Updates tab for the Advanced Class Guide. Most hardbacks have them, but a few don't.

Oops; I meant the APG, not the ACG. But I'm glad you acknowledged my point; that most of the HC's have the FAQ tab right there on the main page...I don't understand why that wouldn't be the default for all of them.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It could be related to when there's been a reprint. Perhaps that's what triggers adding the FAQ/Update tab.


Steve Geddes wrote:
It could be related to when there's been a reprint. Perhaps that's what triggers adding the FAQ/Update tab.

ACG got a second printing, though. If it was strictly printing-based, it should have an FAQ tab.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Sure. I mean they're also behind so perhaps it's intended to be printing-triggered but is merely printing-related.

It just seemed to me (from a somewhat cursory glance) that it may have been related as earlier books seemed to have a tab and later ones didn't.

Another possibility is that they're gradually rolling out the feature in order of publication.


Has anyone compared the preexisting Winter Witch (the archetype only; not the PrC) w/ the Season Witch?

I admit I have an imperfect understanding of the latter, but I'm curious as to how the wintry aspects of the Season Witch compare to the Winter Witch.


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Owls that can't fly, bears that can't hug (no grab), elemental damage for the elemental shifter that's unlisted. The were-touched has a capstone it can't use. Does anyone else feel like they accidentally printed the rough draft of the shifter instead of the finished product?

Shadow Lodge

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Not that they'll ever admit it >.>


BenS wrote:

Has anyone compared the preexisting Winter Witch (the archetype only; not the PrC) w/ the Season Witch?

I admit I have an imperfect understanding of the latter, but I'm curious as to how the wintry aspects of the Season Witch compare to the Winter Witch.

Since they both restrict your patron choice, they aren't compatible by RAW, I'd think? (grumble grumble grumble)

That being said, the Winter Witch is more restrictive with spells - requiring you to give up all [fire] spells whatsoever for a +1 DC to your [cold] spells, whereas the Season Witch (Winter) gives you a +1 DC to your [cold] spells, no ifs or buts.


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I have a question about Shifter's Edge. What was involved with the decision to treat this as a feat rather than making it a feature of the class? Even the recent version of this seems to be a must-have feat. One last thing, was there a reason you went with half the class as a bonus as opposed to keeping the damage the same as the class level, but making the damage bonus a precision bonus, much like the Swashbuckler?

Thanks


A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.


Shifter iconic stats anywhere?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.

Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.


Patrick McGrath wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.
Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

Using the vigilante because i think thats what it ended up as

Lethal Grace (Ex): The vigilante combines strength and speed into incredibly deadly attacks. He gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and if he already has the Weapon Finesse feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Finesse. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls. This bonus damage is not reduced or increased if the vigilante is wielding a weapon two-handed or in an off-hand.

A strength shifter isn't going to use their dex to hit and and an agility shifter is going to have an agile amulet of mighty fisticuffs so they won't use strength to damage.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Patrick McGrath wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
A straight strength or dex build wouldn't use shifters edge. Its really only for a good mix of both.
Unless I am missing something, it is perfectly designed for a Dex build, assuming you don't dump STR too hard. By eighth level, it is already as good as having both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

Using the vigilante because i think thats what it ended up as

Lethal Grace (Ex): The vigilante combines strength and speed into incredibly deadly attacks. He gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and if he already has the Weapon Finesse feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Finesse. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls. This bonus damage is not reduced or increased if the vigilante is wielding a weapon two-handed or in an off-hand.

A strength shifter isn't going to use their dex to hit and and an agility shifter is going to have an agile amulet of mighty fisticuffs so they won't use strength to damage.

Yea, it is most useful for those rare characters who don't dump either Str or Dex. If you manage to keep both high then in *theory* you could out damage someone who just uses an agile amulet of mighty fists. The thing is that it is very hard to do this without dumping your other stats.

Dark Archive

[golblum mode]One could, hmmm... perhaps... hmmm... say that hmmm... nature seeks ermmm... balance yes... hrmmmm hmmmm ermmm...[/goldblum mode]


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Just saw the FAQ on the Shifter damage. As if the Shifter wasn't weak enough already. Ugh.


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Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Coffee Demon wrote:

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.

I'm also wondering if that's not prudent at this point....

I have always just purchased pretty much everything coming out...and historically have not regretted it.

But lately, between all the re-printed mechanics, and now the Shifter disappointment....I'm thinking I should be a bit more discerning....


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
nighttree wrote:
Coffee Demon wrote:

Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There's an awful lot of apparent omissions and required clarifications. The Flightless Owl Aspect is my latest "WTF" unpleasant surprise here.

I friggin' hate buying a book and feeling like I'm playtesting it. I've said that here before, but I'm saying it again because I can't shake the feeling.

And yes, sadly I will wait to pick up the next hardcover because I want to see if we've entered an unfortunate era of less-playtested PF hardcover books.

I'm also wondering if that's not prudent at this point....

I have always just purchased pretty much everything coming out...and historically have not regretted it.

But lately, between all the re-printed mechanics, and now the Shifter disappointment....I'm thinking I should be a bit more discerning....

Yes, and I hate to do that because I play the crap out of this RPG and I want to support it. But this book makes me wary and (I'll be honest) a bit afraid for the future of the game.

I realize it's just one book, but I frikkin' LOVE every other hardcover book I've bought, which is all of them except (oddly enough) the Book of the Damned and Ultimate Villains. Those two didn't have as much of what I wanted, so there's more 'lack of support' that I don't like to do.

I still think a lot has to do with the heavy investment into Starfinder. No matter what Paizo says, I think the attention has been split and perhaps the quality has come down. I hope Planar Adventures turns things around - but I don't know if that will be a great indicator, because it's at least 50% plane fluff, which doesn't require playtesting.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
medtec28 wrote:
I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

I also fear that response, because it would mean that Paizo as a business can't respond, react and adapt to consumer feedback.

As the customer, it's not our job to go gentle on feedback in case we make the business defensive.


medtec28 wrote:
I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Coffee Demon wrote:
Can someone send me a link to the "FAQ's in queue to be answered" page for this book?

There isn't one publicly available.

Shadow Lodge

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nighttree wrote:
.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

From what I can tell we lose "SLAs count as spells for everything" because someone didn't want people getting early entry to the Evangelist prestige class they made...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
nighttree wrote:
.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.
From what I can tell we lose "SLAs count as spells for everything" because someone didn't want people getting early entry to the Evangelist prestige class they made...

Pretty sure it was all the Aasimar Mystic Theurges in PFS.

Shadow Lodge

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Anything to keep a viable build down.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nah.

It's more along the lines of 'if a thing is too good and *everyone* seems to be taking it, it's too good'.

Which, to me right now, pretty much sums up Shifter. About the only good thing it seems to have in it's favor is dipping?


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nighttree wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
medtec28 wrote:
nighttree wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

The Advanced Class Guide had an open playtest, and was the most error filled product to date, with a suite of problems for many classes, which had to get patched after release.

Open Playtests do not necessarily automatically produce quality content.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
nighttree wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
I'm starting to fear the response to the negativity this class seems to have provoked. I'm afraid that they may react in response to our complaints by doubling down instead of changing their stance. I almost expect the response to be that this is the shifter that we were always intended to have.

.....I can't imagine that at all. That paints them as petty and unconcerned with their customer base, and I know from past experience they are none of those things.

Accidents happen....failure is perfectly acceptable as long as something is learned from it.

To be fair, they have also historically held open play tests, and put out quality product. The past few hardcovers have gone the video game route of "get it out and patch it later." And now, they seem to think that they don't need open play tests.

The Advanced Class Guide had an open playtest, and was the most error filled product to date, with a suite of problems for many classes, which had to get patched after release.

Open Playtests do not necessarily automatically produce quality content.

I agree, that was the beginning of the "Rush it out and patch it later" trend that seems to be the new Paizo.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There were other flaws with one particular text which bear not repeating here -- if a discussion about them were to continue, a new thread or the product itself may be the best place for it.

Starting a new thread about playtests may be the best way to address that concern, as well.

I was looking at Shifter again tonight, and came to the realization that they actually need to 'Feat Dump' at least two or three Feats into Mutated Shape to get a full five natural attacks per round if the form has few attacks...


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
I was looking at Shifter again tonight, and came to the realization that they actually need to 'Feat Dump' at least two or three Feats into Mutated Shape to get a full five natural attacks per round if the form has few attacks...

Base shifter can get 5 without a feat. Weretouched can easily have 6 primary natural attacks, again without feats. This is, of course, if you pick the correct form and NEVER leave it for any kind of utility.

Secondly, the feat doesn't have a special section saying it can be taken more than once...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But it also doesn't have any special section saying it CAN'T be taken more than once, either.

*is trying to figure out if that was deliberate or design flaw*

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


But it also doesn't have any special section saying it CAN'T be taken more than once, either.

*is trying to figure out if that was deliberate or design flaw*

All feats can only be taken once unless they specifically say otherwise.

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