Pathfinder Player Companion: Melee Tactics Toolbox (PFRPG)

Well... looks like I'm one step closer to making a Doc Ock build thanks to those Arms of the Marilith.

Why is there no PDF version when it says there is suppose to be one?

Because it's the 24th not the 25th.

Dang it. Oh well I'll get it on the 25th then.

Will this be available after midnight on the 24th? If so, then midnight for what time zone?

PDFs are usually released around close of business the day of release. So somewhere around 4-5PM Pacific tomorrow night.

PDFs are usually released around close of business the day of release. So somewhere around 4-5PM Pacific tomorrow night.

Thanks. For some reason I thought I some of my previous purchases had midnight releases.

PDFs are released at 12:00 AM the day of the release on Pacific Coast Time.

they always have they always will.

so if will be available in about one and a half hours.

Huh, never noticed that. I've only been paying attention to PFS scenario releases.

Yep. It became available at midnight.

The Vestments of War wondrous item reads:

"If worn by a creature capable of casting divination spells who worships a specific deity..."

I think that's supposed to be "divine spells" not "divination".

I just picked this up and I am disappointed in it. There is not one feat for fighters, barbarians or bloodragers that are 2-handed weapon fighters.

Its chock full of feats that require a 13+ intelligence. Intelligence and charisma are dump stats for most martials who are not dual class casters.

Would it have been very hard to add combat feats for 2-handed fighters?

You add two pages of feats for monks who are not really martials but their own unique class and should have been covered in their own book of monk goodness for those who like monks.

The Bloodrager arch type is already covered by the brawler or monk.

Why should you have to have combat expertise to pull your opponents shield aside so you comrade can get a strike vs. his unshielded AC.
it is a great feat with the exception of the gross feat tax of combat expertise.

How about a feat like
Torn Asunder: requires BAB +5; Improved Sunder; Strength 16+
You target you opponents shield with a mighty sundering attack. You make a standard attack vs. your opponents AC if you hit you deal double
damage vs. your opponents shield.

All excess damage is passed on to the opponent.

Why doesn't the alchemical items in the book have Craft DCs?

Because we missed it. Treat them all as Craft DC 25.

I would say that Phalanx Fighter is in a way a THF feat simply due to most reach weapons being two handed. Also what more does a THF need really, they are like sharks they were born perfect and have never had to evolve.

The feats are terrible, they are so corner-case that hurts.

I really like Amiri's warfare on page 14.

The feats are terrible, they are so corner-case that hurts.

Really? Artful Dodge certainly can happen a lot if you use tactics designed to cause it to do so, and it stacks with Dodge, and (as importantly) it becomes a gateway for low-Int fighters to get Mobility and Spring Attack.

Circling Mongoose is pricey for people who will care, but they'll use it all the time.

Heroic Leader IS corner case... but it fixes a major problem for people in that corner.

Those are just the first three feats in the book. And many of the feats work together for specific builds (Steadfast Slayer is going to come up a LOT for 2-handed weapon users who have Artful Dodge).

Obviously corner case is subjective, but it's worth noting that if you don't want a feat you can just not take it, but if you want a specific build often corner case feats are the only things that can make it work.

And, of course, we've DONE Power Attack and most other generic all-situation feats.

Metal Sonic wrote:

The feats are terrible, they are so corner-case that hurts.

And, of course, we've DONE Power Attack and most other generic all-situation feats.

I would also point out that if you're a reach weapon user, Phalanx Formation is hardly situational. The "I have to attack from behind my ally" scenario happens ALL the time in small, enclosed areas. Furthermore, if you combine that feat with Gang Up it actually creates a NEW tactic rather than limits an existing one. I know that my sacred slayer is going to be picking Phalanx Formation up for sure.

So far I really like the book especially the new weapons and feat. I just wish there was an easier way to exotic weapon proficiency than burning a feat, but that has nothing to do with this book.

I did have a question about the Kraken style feet chain. Is there any reason to take Kraken throttle? Its not a prerequisite for Wrack and if you later take Wrack all it gives you is the suffocate option, which is pretty cool thematically, but isn't all that useful on its own.

Any idea how soon this product will be available for Pathfinder Society Organized gameplay?

(Steadfast Slayer is going to come up a LOT for 2-handed weapon users who have Artful Dodge)

Steadfast Slayer, along with Risky Striker and Power Attack, is going to make my halfling paladin concept for Giantslayer really, really scary. I can't wait. (Small earthbreaker FTW!) :D

So I just picked up the melee toolbox and here are my thoughts on it.

There are some more versatile options, good art woork, some new weapons and armor, a few new spells, and a pretty sweet diagram of weapons.

So I read through the book and all though I love getting more options big or small I just felt the book was hugely on the small side for me. There was nothing whiz bang about it imho.

And it made me feel some of the text in the book alluded, that martial classes are just there to let wizards kill things.
"Dedicated spellcasters and archers can appreciate the excitement of engaging an enemy and understand the virtues of a well-planned assault, but they often need someone else to force the foe into close combat to prevent such threats from reaching them." That's great if we playing a themed class of sit there and take damage class why everybody else kills it concept.

Also a lot of things in the book are based around the "teamwork" feats which imho is broken already and we usually disallow all together in our groups games. (More of a personal problem I know)

I was hoping for this book to be "the book" to bring martial classes maybe not on par with spell casters, but a bit more balanced. Cause past lvl 10 Skills and Combat Maneuvers don't mean a whole lot.

Sure there are certain builds to min/max damage or some crazy combo that's amazing for martial classes, but I don't want to go that route every time I play just to keep up. I just feel that martial classes need a boon of some kind.

The Unchained book is coming out next month and that may bring some stuff, but just seems like some other classes are getting the nerf bat and some more options that may or may not be impressive. Have to wait and see on that I could be totally off base.

What I am basically trying to say is can Martial Classes get a Companion or Handbook that makes them on par or close to with the Spell Casters?

I understand the mentality that casters should just get everything cause oooo magic. Just seems like a holdover from D&D 3rd edition.

Thank you for reading Ladies and Gentlemen.

Does the growth weapon quality stack with enlarge person? When you make your weapon grow one size bigger?

Yes it does, according to the FAQ that just came out:

Size Changes

That sum's up my opinion of the book nicely Pexx.

I'm gonna have to agree, so far the book is kind of on the "meh" side. It kind of seemed to aim for the circumstantial over generally useful, and it really looks like a lot of the gear is far overpriced.

Not useless, but pretty far below what I'd expected. It seems focused most on lightly armored guys, Monks, and Arcane Spellcasters, and seems to have forgotten about, well martial and melee characters.

I'm gonna have to agree, so far the book is kind of on the "meh" side. It kind of seemed to aim for the circumstantial over generally useful, and it really looks like a lot of the gear is far overpriced.

Not useless, but pretty far below what I'd expected. It seems focused most on lightly armored guys, Monks, and Arcane Spellcasters, and seems to have forgotten about, well martial and melee characters.

You forgot your signature "Once again, nothing noteworthy for Clerics" line!

It has something for Clerics. I was actually more disappointed in the lack of things like weapon fighting styles, feats for sword and board warriors, options for heavy armored warriors, and just more broadly applying options all around.

Obviously we need a melee tactics of the inners sea toolbox to fill that gap.

I would love to see more defensive options focused around the wearing of heavy armor.

Ok, here is a question. Is the Mammoth Hide in this book supposed to replace the old version from Inner Sea Combat? Seems kind of silly to have 2 armors named exactly the same thing with almost the exact functionality. I think somebody missed that when editing.

"Understand its uses" and "Know how to use it at a professional" level aren't the same thing.

Indeed, since a character making a grapple check without both hands free takes a -4 penalty to their CMB check, and non proficiency penalty with a weapon is is -4, and a crook is a reach weapon, there are lots of circumstances where you are better off using a crook (from out of your target's reach) to make a grapple EVEN if you are not proficient, since your odds are just as good as if you tried it with a sword in one hand.

But like pata, whips, nets, falcatas, khopesh, sword breaker daggers, bo staffs and harpoons, it's awkward to fight with unless you have special training, and it doesn't work close enough to other weapons for expertise with them to offset that awkwardness.

Before I go too much farther I will have to say thank you for responding quickly. It's always nice to see designers engage the audience over content and answer questions and regardless how this rant might sound I am really happy to be actually hearing back from a designer in a timely manner about stuff. That's dope please keep it up. Now onto the rest.

Even with all that said the work seems to wholly disagree. The crook by the fluff distinctly calls it out as a shepherds tool and is designed to do EXACTLY what it is presented to do at start. As it stands by sticking it in that proficiency category it makes this setup where your shepherds are just wandering around idiotically trying to defend their flock until they are lucky enough to get a 2nd feat which feels backwards if they are actively aiming to defend their sheep. I mean why would shepherds design a tool specifically to help them in their primary profession that is somehow too complicated for even their most novice members to use?

But okay lets say that isn't going to be the thing to convince you what about cost and build set? The item as it stands is basically a simple weapon on all it's build with it's low cost, low dmg, low crit, and moderate abilities. It doesn't really have much umph even compared to a moderate simple weapon like a morningstar or longspear. And even with it's unique abilities they aren't mechanically that exotic even compared to other simple weapons. I mean take for example the battle aspergillium, the boar spear, the kumade, or even the morningstar (if you include it's dual damage type) all simple weapons with specific exotic abilities about on par with the special abilities of the Crook and not seen anywhere else in the weapon tables.

Now as for other exotic weapons what feels even more odd is that it doesn't treat as having some sort of partial proficiency like a bastard sword or harpoon where it could be treated as a simple weapon but proficiency gets you the trip or reach grapple abilities.

So I'm kind of sitting here at a loss for why this doesn't fit into the simple weapon category. It's touted as a commoner weapon, it's got stats and price like a commoner weapon, it's abilities are nice but nothing outside the range of what we've seen in the simple weapons category since core (trip, reach, and weird special abilities are all in the simple weapon roster), it's even a good candidate for something like a harpoons/bastard swords partial proficiency and yet here it sits on exotic where its relegated to being this item that will likely rarely see play with the very characters that feel the most interested in it like commoners, experts, adepts, druids, witches (shepherd witch sounds amazing), rangers, hunters, shamans, oracles, and clerics unless they double down and really take the feat for it. So am I missing something, is their like some insane thing in the power curve that just makes throwing it on the simple list just too risky?

I mean hell how is a Crook a more complicated item to understand as a weapon than the ankus, a training tool specifically designed to handle elephants and in a setting like pathfinder something like T-Rexs, Basilisks, rhinos, and huge animal?

It makes me sad that this spell is not on the Bloodrager spell list.

Ok, here is a question. Is the Mammoth Hide in this book supposed to replace the old version from Inner Sea Combat? Seems kind of silly to have 2 armors named exactly the same thing with almost the exact functionality. I think somebody missed that when editing.

Well since the ISC version is banned from PFS and this new version isn't, maybe its a bone to us chargers out there in TV land?

I mean why would shepherds design a tool specifically to help them in their primary profession that is somehow too complicated for even their most novice members to use?

I think there is a world of difference between using a crook to herd relatively docile sheep and trying to use it in combat against an armed opponent.

** spoiler omitted **

It makes me sad that this spell is not on the Bloodrager spell list.

Hence why I despise unique spell lists instead of just letting magic school access be simpler. Like what exactly constitutes whether a spell belongs or doesn't belong on the Bloodrager list? (or any other list for that matter)

Valantrix1 wrote:

Ok, here is a question. Is the Mammoth Hide in this book supposed to replace the old version from Inner Sea Combat? Seems kind of silly to have 2 armors named exactly the same thing with almost the exact functionality. I think somebody missed that when editing.

Well since the ISC version is banned from PFS and this new version isn't, maybe its a bone to us chargers out there in TV land?

Hmm... could be. I actually like this version a bit better anyways.

Ahoi!!

I would like to know:
-Which of the 10 new melee spells can be cast by Bards?
-What are the new Bard Masterpieces?
-Are there any new Rage Powers for Barbarians?

PLZ and ThankYou! :D

** spoiler omitted **

It makes me sad that this spell is not on the Bloodrager spell list.

If I recall, Paizo's stance on the Bloodrager was that they would not be adding new spells to it's list much.

Deadkitten wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

It makes me sad that this spell is not on the Bloodrager spell list.

If I recall, Paizo's stance on the Bloodrager was that they would not be adding new spells to it's list much.

I can understand that stance. It just makes me a little disappointed cause this spell is perfect for them.

I actually left that off the bloodrager list intentionally, after careful consideration. While it would be an excellent game mechanical boost for bloodragers, a spell of additional caution doesn't feel like something that develops from reservoirs of buried rage or power that seethes in veins during with power, as the bloodrage class is described.
The one advantage of custom spell lists is maintaining strong class flavor, which was my guiding principle here.

I actually left that off the bloodrager list intentionally, after careful consideration. While it would be an excellent game mechanical boost for bloodragers, a spell of additional caution doesn't feel like something that develops from reservoirs of buried rage or power that seethes in veins during with power, as the bloodrage class is described.

The one advantage of custom spell lists is maintaining strong class flavor, which was my guiding principle here.

I was dismayed at the decision to keep that spell from bloodragers, but this explanation makes so much sense. Thanks for taking the time to share the thoughts behind this decision.

Question: Are the Writhing Armor's Whip and Defensive abilities at will/automatic-conditional, or is there missing text (or text I'm missing) limiting it to times per day?

Why is a spell that draws from the wisdom of spirits not on the Ranger list?

Since there's a process for official FAQs that goes with highest priority first, and as far as I can tell only a few folks have hit a FAQ request on this even, this is not an official FAQ. It is a declaration of intent of one of book's the two developers.

The feat Kraken Throttle should be read to cutting off air from the target, and thus activating the "Suffocation" rules on 445. Yes, as written one could claim that since it uses the word "suffocate" it actually refers the very last step of that process "In the third round, she suffocates." No, that's not what is intended. Since most people agree it doesn't mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you kill anyone," I'm hope it's not a surprise that it was never intended to mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you KO anyone, and kill them 1 round later."

The main utility of the feat is that it adds 2 hp to the damage dealt by Kraken Style. This is the same size boost as Weapon Specialization, and enough to make the feat useful in the builds it's designed for even without the ability to choke someone to death over a couple of minutes. The choking aspect is secondary (and Chokehold is a better choice if that's what you want to focus on.)

Why is a spell that draws from the wisdom of spirits not on the Ranger list?

Because the spirits aren't particularly nature-based, so it's not a strong match for the ranger's magical theme.

I want to say here that I was delighted to see the planson aka goedendag finally make it into an official Paizo book, and was downright stunned to see the kumade. Been reading a lot of books on the samurai & Sengoku Jidai, and now I'm imagining a samurai or cavalier character with a squire cohort trained in using the kumade, pulling enemies down so their master can more easily lop their heads off.

And are there any feats that make it easier to grapple with a weapon like the kumade as compared to unarmed grappling?

Weapon Focus. :)