I know, I know. But Inquisitors work very well with demons, too and as I said, they've been wanting to do another 1-20 campaign since we started with the APs. So, we'll see what their choice will be, I'm open to both. :)
Creative Director
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(including the first of six demon lords that will be presented during the campaign!)Will this be the flavor from the SD AP plus stat blocks using Mythic Rules?
Ruyan.
Our current "go-to" spot for flavor for the demon lords is no longer Second Darkness, but the expanded info on them in Book of the Damned II: Lords of Chaos. The demon lord entries in Wrath of the Righteous's bestiary will be stat blocks plus some expanded info specifically about the demon lords. And in some volumes... you'll be getting even more than that on at least three demon lords.
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I should probably clarify that I didn't necessarily mean the Witchhunter Inquisitor archetype, but rather that their character focus will be on hunting witches. ^^I see, then it an probably work in both campaigns but you will find a lack of witches in the wraith campaign where in winter, you will face a witch right in the first adventure and have a witch as the BBEG.
There's certainly going to be fewer witches in Wrath of the Righteous than in Reign of Winter... but there WILL be witches in Wrath of the Righteous... including one very very powerful witch (who isn't a winter witch or Baba Yaga)...
This upcoming AP is in my humble opinion, the most compelling AP yet. This AP has the feel of the 'Diablo' PC game to it, and reminds me of a few old Steve Jackson & Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy novels I had from adolescence. Paizo couldn't have picked a better AP, and I'll gladly buy every single episode. Bravo.
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This upcoming AP is in my humble opinion, the most compelling AP yet. This AP has the feel of the 'Diablo' PC game to it, and reminds me of a few old Steve Jackson & Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy novels I had from adolescence. Paizo couldn't have picked a better AP, and I'll gladly buy every single episode. Bravo.
Agreed. Demons are always a recipe for a compelling story. >:D
There's certainly going to be fewer witches in Wrath of the Righteous than in Reign of Winter... but there WILL be witches in Wrath of the Righteous... including one very very powerful witch (who isn't a winter witch or Baba Yaga)...I should probably clarify that I didn't necessarily mean the Witchhunter Inquisitor archetype, but rather that their character focus will be on hunting witches. ^^I see, then it an probably work in both campaigns but you will find a lack of witches in the wraith campaign where in winter, you will face a witch right in the first adventure and have a witch as the BBEG.
Areelu Vorlesh?
There's certainly going to be fewer witches in Wrath of the Righteous than in Reign of Winter... but there WILL be witches in Wrath of the Righteous... including one very very powerful witch (who isn't a winter witch or Baba Yaga)...I should probably clarify that I didn't necessarily mean the Witchhunter Inquisitor archetype, but rather that their character focus will be on hunting witches. ^^I see, then it an probably work in both campaigns but you will find a lack of witches in the wraith campaign where in winter, you will face a witch right in the first adventure and have a witch as the BBEG.
*cough*Iggwilv*cough*
Ahem. Sorry. Bad cold.
Back when Reign of Winter was announced, and my wife and I were rooting for a Worldwound AP, we decided to brainstorm out how we'd write it... and it was eerily similar to the plot of this first adventures.
WHO DO I SUE!?!
...OR BUY A BEER?!
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I'm really torn. On one hand, this sounds like the AP I have been waiting for since Carion Crown. On the other, it's tied to Mythic, which I was/am not thrilled with. I understand that Paizo would like to present an AP to work with the new gimick, but any chance you guys/gals might reconsider tying it in so much with this one? Maybe have the sidebars offering ways to run this one as Mythic rather than have the be the base assumption?
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That's kind of my issue, honestly. Two of the biggest requests I see presented for Paizo to right is a heavily good-guy campaign, knights and crusaders going all out against evil, and an epic AP. Tagging on Mythic with one is kind of like saying that they can't do an honest good-guy AP without making it superhero or throwing in special rules to make it possible or fun. Now, I'm not saying that Paizo is saying that or putting words in their mouth, just it kind of feels that way.
It's less that I really don't like the Mythic rules, (I don't but that's not the point I'm trying to make), as much as it's really missing the point of making the AP that we wanted, (if I can speak for other people).
Perhaps I'm underestimating the difficulty of modding this for 'unmythic' rules. But this seems to be the first AP that supports going all the way up to 20th level? Or maybe even the first Paizo module for that matter. Maybe down the road I can use its final chapter as an epic 'coda' for one of my campaigns! :D
Or maybe I can homebrew a mix of this with Rappan Athuk. ;)
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I think it's more that they didn't want to address a major world issue like the Worldwound without going epic.
I can see your point that a full on good guy AP shouldn't have to be epic.
Well, Mythic is not really Epic, which I think would be a bit of a different story, in my opinion.
My understanding is that the end boss is Deskari, and there is no way a normal AP in 6 installments could ever get characters high enough to not be squashed by him. Even if they got the characters up to 20 without mythic enhancement, they would still probably not survive long against a full Demon Lord and his retinue (which might very well consist of multiple Balors, ect).
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That's kind of my issue, honestly. Two of the biggest requests I see presented for Paizo to right is a heavily good-guy campaign, knights and crusaders going all out against evil, and an epic AP. Tagging on Mythic with one is kind of like saying that they can't do an honest good-guy AP without making it superhero or throwing in special rules to make it possible or fun. Now, I'm not saying that Paizo is saying that or putting words in their mouth, just it kind of feels that way.
It's less that I really don't like the Mythic rules, (I don't but that's not the point I'm trying to make), as much as it's really missing the point of making the AP that we wanted, (if I can speak for other people).
To echo what others have said, it's not that they feel they can't do a "good guy" AP without Mythic, rather, they feel they can't do a "fight the Demon Lord" AP without Mythic. Which makes 100% complete sense.
This is a "good guy AP" but it isn't THE "good guy" AP. It's the Worlwound AP. Sure, they could have done a Worldwound AP without Demon Lords but that would have been very disappointing. The other alternative, doing Demon Lords but having them be low enough in CR for non-Mythic characters to fight would be just silly and even more disappointing.
And at this point, there's really no chance of them reconsidering anyway since the AP is only six months away and everything is locked down for writing and production.
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That's kind of my issue, honestly. Two of the biggest requests I see presented for Paizo to right is a heavily good-guy campaign, knights and crusaders going all out against evil, and an epic AP. Tagging on Mythic with one is kind of like saying that they can't do an honest good-guy AP without making it superhero or throwing in special rules to make it possible or fun. Now, I'm not saying that Paizo is saying that or putting words in their mouth, just it kind of feels that way.
It's less that I really don't like the Mythic rules, (I don't but that's not the point I'm trying to make), as much as it's really missing the point of making the AP that we wanted, (if I can speak for other people).
You actually really can't speak for all of us... some of us like the idea of Mythic and I agree with the sentiment that fighting a Demon lord without some form of "Epic" or "Mythic" would be really disappointing and not fighting a Demon Lord for the world wound AP would also be a huge disappointment!
I also think you're confusing what a Good-Guy AP is... the only really none good-guy APs I can think of are Skull and Shackles, maybe Serpent Skull which has the whole faction thing going on. Pretty much every other AP wants you to be a Good Guy in some sense though they can work with the Less-Then-Good party as well....
In fact! World Wound is just as much open to that possibility as well considering there are many a Low Templar in Mendev. Sure, fighting the Demons of Mendev lends itself to Paladins but so does fighting the Devils of Cheliax and Westcrown or fighting the Undead forces of the Whispering Way. And these other Paths aren't Mythic.
This upcoming AP is in my humble opinion, the most compelling AP yet. This AP has the feel of the 'Diablo' PC game to it, and reminds me of a few old Steve Jackson & Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy novels I had from adolescence. Paizo couldn't have picked a better AP, and I'll gladly buy every single episode. Bravo.
I read those Fighting Fantasy books obsessively. FF was the first RPG I actually played, before even AD&D. /memories
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It's also the first AP adventure written by a woman, which is HUGE. WOO HOO!!!!
At AP #73, may I just say: It's about freakin' time!!!!!!!
I love you guys, but I really can't believe it took this long to let a woman into the AP-writing stable. We women game writers aren't THAT rare.
To Amber: Congratulations!!!!!! Represent. I'm looking forward to this one. :)
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Oh, I've been noticing the lack of female representation. I've commented on it before. Glad to see some change in that regard.
I wanted to buy this the moment I saw the mocked up cover. Then I realized they had hardwired Mythic into it. Guess I will have to pass on this one. I hope that the next AP is not tied so hard to the Mythic rules.
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I wanted to buy this the moment I saw the mocked up cover. Then I realized they had hardwired Mythic into it. Guess I will have to pass on this one. I hope that the next AP is not tied so hard to the Mythic rules.
It won't be. But I still hope you at least check out #73 if you see it in a store or something...
... since there's never been a Mythic Adventure Path before... you won't know for sure you don't like it until you see what we do with it.
... since there's never been a Mythic Adventure Path before... you won't know for sure you don't like it until you see what we do with it.
At any rate, I imagine there's plenty of Golarion lore to loot from The Worldwound Incursion, regardless of one's feelings about mythic play.
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My body is so ready for this.
100% looking forward to this AP.
... since there's never been a Mythic Adventure Path before... you won't know for sure you don't like it until you see what we do with it.
I had hope that the Mythic rules would be like a spice I could sprinkle in once in a while. I was not looking for Mythic to become a "norm" for the characters or the game. But that was my take on Mythic. I realize this.
I respect what you are saying and I realize many people are wanting to play it with the Mythic rules tied into it. And trust me when I say I want the best for Paizo. I enjoy most of your products very much.
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I had hope that the Mythic rules would be like a spice I could sprinkle in once in a while. I was not looking for Mythic to become a "norm" for the characters or the game. But that was my take on Mythic. I realize this.
Mythic IS like a spice you can sprinkle in once in a while, whenever it fits the game you're running. James has said repeatedly that Mythic play won't be standard for the game going forward. We won't see every single adventure path after Wrath of the Righteous carry the Mythic label. It's a major 2013 release for the Pathfinder RPG, sure, and there'll be a Mythic adventure path, but the Pathfinder RPG will still be the same. Mythic's just that spice you can add to your game when the story calls for it.
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Mythic's just that spice you can add to your game when the story calls for it.
And this story definitely calls for it.
Plus, for anyone who's worried about mythic rules in your AP, believe me when I say it isn't the same as simply injecting epic level play into the game. Mythic is different. It's like giving lower CR monsters an injection of power that's better than simply layering on the advanced, giant, or fiendish simple templates...or even the half-fiend template. That adds to the design aspects for an adventure, because there's so much more you can do with mythic rules just for monster enhancement, much less the NPCs.
Additionally, with these more potent adversaries (from powered up creatures and NPCs to actual demon lords), the PCs will need their own mythic abilities to match those threats with a higher plane of heroics. This AP is the right time to include those elements in a story. And the mythic rules are the right mechanics to define it in game terms. You know Paizo brings an unmatched attention to quality and gameplay in everything they produce. This AP, and the mythic rules which support it, will be no different. Don't discard it until you've had a chance to actually examine it...or you'll be kicking yourself later.
My two cents,
--Neil
P.S. It's great to see Amber leading this one off!
So inorder to play an adventure path that will in total retail somewhere in the the vicinity of $115 plus shipping I have to now buy an additional book that costs 40 bucks? After all I have already invested? These are great products, and I love supporting a game that has meant so much to me in my life as well as this wonderful little company that has shepherded it so well, but this is starting to feel a little like a money grab to me, at a time when discretionary spending is difficult for me and many others. Plus for some reason, demons are less intrinsically inspiring to me then some of their other concepts, like pirates and ice witches who plane walk in a chicken shack. But maybe that is just me. I am glad that I have a little time to consider if I want to move forward in this investment, and if I choose to step away, it will be with a heavy heart because I generally like the way this company works and thinks. We shall see.
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So inorder to play an adventure path that will in total retail somewhere in the the vicinity of $115 plus shipping I have to now buy an additional book that costs 40 bucks? After all I have already invested? These are great products, and I love supporting a game that has meant so much to me in my life as well as this wonderful little company that has shepherded it so well, but this is starting to feel a little like a money grab to me, at a time when discretionary spending is difficult for me and many others. Plus for some reason, demons are less intrinsically inspiring to me then some of their other concepts, like pirates and ice witches who plane walk in a chicken shack. But maybe that is just me. I am glad that I have a little time to consider if I want to move forward in this investment, and if I choose to step away, it will be with a heavy heart because I generally like the way this company works and thinks. We shall see.
The Mythic Rules will be available on the PRD and d20PSRD for the very low price of FREE! A few weeks after the book hits the shelves but all the same. The rules for Mythic will be available even if you don't purchase the rulebook.... Should you still help support Paizo by making the purchase? I believe so because I think Mythic rules are an intriguing rules set that I could make great use of at my table. You might be uncertain about that and that is legitimate but considering the rules do show up for free on their OWN web site, accusing them of money-grabbing seems a bit harsh.
So inorder to play an adventure path that will in total retail somewhere in the the vicinity of $115 plus shipping I have to now buy an additional book that costs 40 bucks? After all I have already invested? These are great products, and I love supporting a game that has meant so much to me in my life as well as this wonderful little company that has shepherded it so well, but this is starting to feel a little like a money grab to me, at a time when discretionary spending is difficult for me and many others. Plus for some reason, demons are less intrinsically inspiring to me then some of their other concepts, like pirates and ice witches who plane walk in a chicken shack. But maybe that is just me. I am glad that I have a little time to consider if I want to move forward in this investment, and if I choose to step away, it will be with a heavy heart because I generally like the way this company works and thinks. We shall see.
I would hardly call it a money grab. That's like saying it's a money grab that Ultimate Magic/Combat had options for the ARG classes. Or that adventure paths use monsters from all 3 bestiaries.
All of this will be available for free on the PRD. That's about as far from money grabbing as you can get. And even if you're the kind of person that just has to get the hardcover for every rules supplement that's released, you can always just turn to one of Paizo's excellent 11 other adventure paths which don't require any mythic stuff at all.
You both are correct; 'money grab' was too harsh, and much too cynical a way to view a company that has always put the customer/player first. I retract it. Maybe I should chalk up my misgivings to the fact that demons freak me out.
Gotta say, I like the theme of taking the fight to evil in this one. I'm a little sad it won't be against devils, but I feel that taking on demon lords would be more feasible story-wise than archdevils. Mostly since you can take out a demon lord and other lords won't have any loyalty compulsion to avenge them. Lamashtu won't care at all. However, if you did that to one of the archdevils, you'd have to deal with Asmodeus and the full force of the diabolic machine that is Hell.
A question. Will we be seeing other fiends making cameos in this adventure? Maybe some devils or daemons or even kytons making some appearances?
Sweet, it looks like this AP is going to be one big rampage against the Demon Lords.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu
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Gotta say, I like the theme of taking the fight to evil in this one. I'm a little sad it won't be against devils, but I feel that taking on demon lords would be more feasible story-wise than archdevils. Mostly since you can take out a demon lord and other lords won't have any loyalty compulsion to avenge them. Lamashtu won't care at all. However, if you did that to one of the archdevils, you'd have to deal with Asmodeus and the full force of the diabolic machine that is Hell.
A question. Will we be seeing other fiends making cameos in this adventure? Maybe some devils or daemons or even kytons making some appearances?
This isn't quite true. Demons have allies, and the can be avenged. Do too much against the Abyss and the Abyss and its minions will rise up as one against you... For example, Desna almost caused this when she snuck into the Abyss to kill the demon lord Aolar after she lost one of her favorite priests to her.
In any case, yes, other types of fiends will be appearing in this adventure path... some more than others, some not at all.
I'm a bit concerned that the mythic rules aspect will excerbate the rocket tag nature of the game at the higher levels. Oh, well. At least for this module that shouldn't be a problem yet.
There seems to be a spot here for the LE crowd (Asmodeus and the Hellknights can find cause to get involved) but how about NE? The thought of being able to create a Mythic Undead Lord of Urgathoa to send against the forces of the Abyss is just so tempting, but how would it stand up from a RP standpoint?
Urgathoa seems like a goddess that just wouldn't care about the worldwound...her worshippers are more about hedonism and gluttony (and of course Undead) than the actual state of the world.
Yes, but she'd like for there to be a world to be Gluttonous and Hedonistic in right? And no more living people means no more (or food for certain) Undead.
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Mirrel, you can have undead outsiders so there might be cause for Urgathoa to off Zura, the Vampire Queen, and take that place if she could or maybe strike up an alliance. But I don't really think Urgathoa would go out of her way or really care as she has Eox and plenty of other worlds she can act on.
Yes, but she'd like for there to be a world to be Gluttonous and Hedonistic in right? And no more living people means no more (or food for certain) Undead.
The multiverse contains thousands upon thousands of worlds. The loss of a single world probably won't matter a great deal to Urgathoa. However, her mortal worshipers might be more inclined to fight for the world they live in, as would most mortals. Urgathoa might not care, but they still need a playground to play in.
Also, battlefields are a great place to recruit for the Faith, as well as a food source for the Ghouls!
I'm going to get lynched there, aren't I?
I'm not sure I understand what the "hook" is for this AP. We had the Pirate AP, the "return to Varisia" AP, the dark fairy-tale AP, and now...the giant demon war AP? Is there something I'm missing here?