Ancestries and Heritages Preview: A World of Possibility

Vulpys wrote:

I have a lore question. How can a leshy be a grimspawn?

a significant infusion of daemonic power/magic, most likely? which could come from a variety of sources after their creation, or perhaps even have been involved in the process of creating them somehow (intentionally or otherwise).

this kind of thing comes up quite often in golarion lore, and is the main answer to questions like "how do draconic bloodline sorcerers exist?" and whatnot. the exemplar iconic was not born a nephilim, for example.

I personally think it would also be fun if occasionally leshies just end up inheriting things like that from whoever created them. like an angelkin amurrun druid creates a leshy who unexpectedly has the potential to end up as an angel bloodline sorcerer, or something.

The examplar Iconic really shouldn't be taken as a reference given how many conventions of the lore it breaks. Like you know, PC characters not being destined to be gods or have the power of gods (Mythics are demigods at most).

He's not mythic though, or expressly ever stated to be a god or going to become one; he's got a piece of divinity inside himself.

And how is this contradicting lore? I can't recall anywhere that says nephilim can't be made rather than born; loads of sources point to the opposite, in fact, talking about how nephilim can appear simply by being in close proximity to a source of celestial or fiendish power.

The examplar Iconic really shouldn't be taken as a reference given how many conventions of the lore it breaks. Like you know, PC characters not being destined to be gods or have the power of gods (Mythics are demigods at most).

nothing about nahoa becoming an exemplar contradicts any of the expectations/understanding I had for/of golarion as a setting, so I'm good with not dismissing the work of writers offhand. especially when we've only seen/heard about tiny slices of it, removed from the full context.

and anyway - while he's a perfectly acceptable (and easy-to-point-to) recent example of a nephilim who wasn't born one - the lore was already very clear on this stuff. the "supernatural origins" sidebar on pg. 29 of the APG covers it in detail as applicable to all versatile heritages. and then both the assimar and tiefling heritage entries in the same book explicitly mention being touched by the celestial realms/bearing the mark of the fiendish realms, contrasted against directly descending from the relevant extraplanar beings.

...why is one a horrifying monster thing?

...why is one a horrifying monster thing?

Leshies have been around for quite some time; they're nature spirits inside plant or fungus bodies. Most of them are quite cute.

I have a lore question. How can a leshy be a grimspawn?

Besides the options others have already mentioned, what is a Leshy at their core?

Leshies are immortal spirits of nature temporarily granted a physical form. Leshies are “born” when a skilled druid or other master of primal magic conducts a ritual to create a suitable vessel, and then a spirit chooses that vessel to be their temporary home.

So going off that, say a Druid changed the ritual ever so slightly, infusing the vessel with just a touch of Abaddon, so instead of a Nature spirit hopping in, instead a Daemon did. This could be intentional (an evil and heretical Druid spreading Daemonic corruption, or even a less-villainous Druid using the Leshy ritual to seal a Daemon away in a form where it would forget its nature) or unintentional (an arrogant but unskilled young Druid trying a ritual far outside their skill level, and screwing it up in just the wrong way). Either way though, you could still wind up with a Leshy, but one with Daemonic energy infusing it. AKA a Grimspawn Leshy.

That's the fun thing about stuff like this, you can create your own stories for it, and with enough creativity anything can be made to sound lore-plausible.

Also, RE: whether or not Artificial Nephilim are a thing or not... Not necessarily the same thing but there was at one point a book (can't remember which off-hand, just that it was a thing) that mentioned experiments with fusing fire elementals and human souls resulting in artificial Naari, which is a concept that I've used for a character (planning on rebuilding her in PF2e at some point), so if it works for the Elemental planes why not the Outer Planes?

Morgen wrote:

...why is one a horrifying monster thing?

Leshies have been around for quite some time; they're nature spirits inside plant or fungus bodies. Most of them are quite cute.

Yes. I think this one is a reaction to the quite cute. I like it.

Makes me think a bit of my Ghoran Ghoul PC concept.

Those are some excellent art previews. And now we apparently got half-orc/half-elf hybrids? Also pretty interesting.

And now we apparently got half-orc/half-elf hybrids? Also pretty interesting.

Love Is Strange

NGL, these new names are gonna take some time to get used to. Especially the convoluted ones like the audiereren. Appropriately 'elf-y', yes. But still.

That being said, I'm still hyped for the new stuff~

I have a lore question. How can a leshy be a grimspawn?

I would imagine there are lots of them in areas like the world wound area or other heavily tainted areas. They are spirits of nature so if the nature is highly corrupted would be pretty easy for them to take on traits of that source as well when they inhabit a physical form.

Those are some excellent art previews. And now we apparently got half-orc/half-elf hybrids? Also pretty interesting.

The important question:

Are they called orfs or elcs?

Those are some excellent art previews. And now we apparently got half-orc/half-elf hybrids? Also pretty interesting.

Actually you can have Half-elf Orcs and Half-orc Elves.

keftiu wrote:

Morgen wrote:

...why is one a horrifying monster thing?

Leshies have been around for quite some time; they're nature spirits inside plant or fungus bodies. Most of them are quite cute.

Yes. I think this one is a reaction to the quite cute. I like it.

Makes me think a bit of my Ghoran Ghoul PC concept.

That art is from Lost Omens: Character Guide. It was one of the first images of leshies as an ancestry that we had. I dunno why people are talking like they've never seen it before.

Five minute attention span.

How on Golarion does that Dromaar's ankles support the rest of her?

How on Golarion does that Dromaar's ankles support the rest of her?

The Orc you mean ?

Same way Dragons fly, maybe.

Yeah, I think he meant Orc for sure but that is one other thing, that uh, that art does not depict an Orc, that's not even a watered-down anatomy PF2 Orc... that's a freaking Half-Orc, modern skincare routine smooth complexion, vestigial tusk-teeth, perfectly groomed straightened hair, no flattened cranium, human-sized hands, TINY human-like ears, an utter and complete lack of ferocity with a human-like body posture and build.

Is that an error or are Orcs just going to be assumed to be green-skinned slightly pointy-fingered/toothed humans from here out? Empowering players to make a diverse range of appearances for their PCs is one thing and it seems to be the point of this blog post alright but it's like they just threw out the style guide for Orcs altogether, added a tiny chin tattoo, tiny little tusks and then tinted the color for a half-elf, said "that's and Orc" and called it a day. The example Dromaar that is pictured on the blog is in every way more Orc-like than the supposed actual Orc that is illustrated... I can't help but feel like they included that art of some Half-Orc by mistake instead of getting one of an actual fully Orc Orc

Yeah, I think he meant Orc for sure but that is one other thing, that uh, that art does not depict an Orc, that's not even a watered-down anatomy PF2 Orc... that's a freaking Half-Orc, modern skincare routine smooth complexion, vestigial tusk-teeth, perfectly groomed straightened hair, no flattened cranium, human-sized hands, TINY human-like ears, an utter and complete lack of ferocity with a human-like body posture and build.

Is that an error or are Orcs just going to be assumed to be green-skinned slightly pointy-fingered/toothed humans from here out? Empowering players to make a diverse range of appearances for their PCs is one thing and it seems to be the point of this blog post alright but it's like they just threw out the style guide for Orcs altogether, added a tiny chin tattoo, tiny little tusks and then tinted the color for a half-elf, said "that's and Orc" and called it a day. The example Dromaar that is pictured on the blog is in every way more Orc-like than the supposed actual Orc that is illustrated... I can't help but feel like they included that art of some Half-Orc by mistake instead of getting one of an actual fully Orc Orc

This is not an error. This art is not new and appeared in Pathfinder Lost Omens Ancestry Guide, page 49 published in 2021. It appeared alongside 3 other full body orc images. It represents the spectrum of orc appearance, not a shift in orc art concept. You can find more orc full body art in the Advanced Player's Guide and Bestiary. No one single image should be consider to have more weight than another. Please enjoy creating the orc you wish to play.

Yeah, Orcs (like everybody else) should be able to enjoy a wide array of body shapes, skin tones, hair color, dental structure, etc.

There are some things that you probably shouldn't change (like your Gnome should not have the dimensions of Lebron James), but as long as you've made a credible case that "your character should read as their ancestry" then you're fine.

Are dromar not orcs or half-orcs? Seems I misinterpreted some of the earlier thread posts.

Are dromar not orcs or half-orcs? Seems I misinterpreted some of the earlier thread posts.

Dromaar and Half-Orc mean the same thing.

Ravingdork wrote:

Are dromar not orcs or half-orcs? Seems I misinterpreted some of the earlier thread posts.

Dromaar and Half-Orc mean the same thing.

I suspect Dromaar is the replacement for the term "Half-Orc" (which is pretty OGL, and also a bit squicky) but is a superset of literal "half orcs".

Since it also includes someone who's like 7/16 Orc or 3/8 Orc. It's just "you are conspicuously a mixture of orc and human ancestries" but the exact percentages don't matter.

One of the good things about dropping Half-Orc is that your 7/16 Orc is not a "Half-Orc".

I'm just getting tired of NOT having a substitute for the Half-Dragon template.

Okay, on this front: I'm afraid you're never, ever, ever getting that thanks to editorial tilt.

JJacobs, Erik Mona, and many other vets from the Dragon/Dungeon era got thoroughly sick of of half-dragons a long, long time ago. We are not going to see a half-dragon in print in an official Pathfinder book.

To wit:

Correct; a half-dragon with no racial HD would have a breath weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage. Not an awful lot, but this was a purposeful design choice because the flavor of a humanoid half-dragon isn't one that we at Paizo particularly like, and it's one that a LOT of our customers have expressed exasperation with. Primarily because back in the 3.5 days, half-dragon was probably THE most overused template of them all. We (Paizo and our readers) mostly got sick of them, causing the half-dragon to go on the LIST for the last 50 or so print issues of Dungeon. That meant that if someone put a half-dragon into an adventure, they had to have a GREAT reason and GREAT background for that half-dragon.

So I would absolutely not hold your breath for half-dragon anything. The absolute most we're likely to get is Luis Loza's Dragonkin PF Infinite booklet.

We actually have had at least one half-dragon in 2e so far. Nothing player-facing, but one showed up in

JiCi wrote:

I'm just getting tired of NOT having a substitute for the Half-Dragon template.

Okay, on this front: I'm afraid you're never, ever, ever getting that thanks to editorial tilt.

JJacobs, Erik Mona, and many other vets from the Dragon/Dungeon era got thoroughly sick of of half-dragons a long, long time ago. We are not going to see a half-dragon in print in an official Pathfinder book.

So I would absolutely not hold your breath for half-dragon anything.

Here's my reasoning:

(using D&D 3.5 / P1E terms)
Half-Celestial? We got the Aasimar.
Half-Fiend? We got the Tiefling.
Lycanthrope? We got the Skinwalker.
Half-Elemental? We got the Geniekins.
Vampire? We got the Dhampir.
Half-Dragon? We got... nothing... absolutely nothing... not even Paizo's answer to WotC's Dragonborn.

We got Kobolds, which became wimpy cowards instead of cunning hunters specialized in traps with a deep hatred for gnomes, all while honoring their draconic heritage. We also got the Wyvarans, but as of today, they have yet to return.

That's why I wished Kobolds became a core ancestry, to FINALLY fill that gap. If Paizo also wanted to downsize the number of dragons in Golarion, there wasn't a need to nerf kobolds this much either. Finally, Dragonkins were made into a playable alien race in Starfinder, and it doesn't feel overbearing or more powerful than others.

For goodness sake, Kobolds became more available to players since WotC's Races of the Dragon, as it was revealed that Kobolds' alignments usually match their scale color, including metallic dragons.

Paizo is not downsizing the number of dragons in Golarion. The previous named NPC dragons are not gone or retconned into something else. For the meantime they would exist as "an evil dragon that is blue" rather than "an evil blue dragon". The non-chromatic and metallic dragon groups are staying are we are getting a new group of dragons (2 each for each magic tradition) for the remaster.

Paizo is not downsizing the number of dragons in Golarion. The previous named NPC dragons are not gone or retconned into something else. For the meantime they would exist as "an evil dragon that is blue" rather than "an evil blue dragon". The non-chromatic and metallic dragon groups are staying are we are getting a new group of dragons (2 each for each magic tradition) for the remaster.

What I mean by "downsizing" is more that "Paizo doesn't use dragons this much, making them more unique and rarer".

JiCi wrote:

I'm just getting tired of NOT having a substitute for the Half-Dragon template.

Okay, on this front: I'm afraid you're never, ever, ever getting that thanks to editorial tilt.

JJacobs, Erik Mona, and many other vets from the Dragon/Dungeon era got thoroughly sick of of half-dragons a long, long time ago. We are not going to see a half-dragon in print in an official Pathfinder book.

To wit:

JJ wrote:

Correct; a half-dragon with no racial HD would have a breath weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage. Not an awful lot, but this was a purposeful design choice because the flavor of a humanoid half-dragon isn't one that we at Paizo particularly like, and it's one that a LOT of our customers have expressed exasperation with. Primarily because back in the 3.5 days, half-dragon was probably THE most overused template of them all. We (Paizo and our readers) mostly got sick of them, causing the half-dragon to go on the LIST for the last 50 or so print issues of Dungeon. That meant that if someone put a half-dragon into an adventure, they had to have a GREAT reason and GREAT background for that half-dragon.

So I would absolutely not hold your breath for half-dragon anything. The absolute most we're likely to get is Luis Loza's Dragonkin PF Infinite booklet.

There's also Roll for Combat's Battlezoo Dragon Ancestry, which allows you to play a half-dragon in addition to a full dragon.

We all know that a bunch of draconic stuff is in Player Core 2, right?

…right?

Kobolds are in Player Core 2 for the same reason Barbarian and Sorcerer are in Player Core 2; their features are too reliant on the features of full dragons to come out before the new bestiary gives the details on the new types.

I just wish they made Kobolds less of a joke and more of a "pint-sized draconic powerhouse".

"Hey! Look! A tiny red lizard!"
*belches a cone of flames*
*joker turns to ashes
"Oh, I'm sorry, who's tiny now?"

I mean the ancestry feats are certainly there to do that. i've made great use of Kobolds breath weapons on my Kobold PC's.

keftiu wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Are dromar not orcs or half-orcs? Seems I misinterpreted some of the earlier thread posts.

Dromaar and Half-Orc mean the same thing.

I suspect Dromaar is the replacement for the term "Half-Orc" (which is pretty OGL, and also a bit squicky) but is a superset of literal "half orcs".

Since it also includes someone who's like 7/16 Orc or 3/8 Orc. It's just "you are conspicuously a mixture of orc and human ancestries" but the exact percentages don't matter.

One of the good things about dropping Half-Orc is that your 7/16 Orc is not a "Half-Orc".

That certainly helps with some of my character concepts, many of which have been half-elves or half-orcs whose parents were also of the same mixed ancestry, rather than one pureblood member of each of the ancestral species.

I remember having one half-elven clan whose women mated with visiting human sailors but tried to retain the benefits of mixed ancestry, so every few generations they went on quests to find elves who could up the elven percentage enough to prevent their children from having their ancestry diluted to basically being fully human.

I just wish they made Kobolds less of a joke and more of a "pint-sized draconic powerhouse".

"Hey! Look! A tiny red lizard!"
*belches a cone of flames*
*joker turns to ashes
"Oh, I'm sorry, who's tiny now?"

Kobolds have like two silly feats. They’re not any more comical than the average Ancestry, and we’ve seen them be totally-sincere roles like diplomats and craftsmen in published content… on top of also being the Paizo union’s logo.

I see a lot of “I wish Kobolds weren’t jokes!” and very little of Kobolds being jokes, y’know?

I don't quite understand it either. Looking through the kobold feats, I found two that, IMO, I would consider "silly," Cringe and Grovel. Of those Cringe is the only level 1 feat, and you wouldn't be taking that anyway, assuming you want to breathe fire like a dragon, which is also a level 1 feat.
I guess Draconic Sycophant, Dragon's Presence, and Scamper could also be considered "silly" feats, but that is much more up to interpretation IMO.

I just wish they made Kobolds less of a joke and more of a "pint-sized draconic powerhouse".

"Hey! Look! A tiny red lizard!"
*belches a cone of flames*
*joker turns to ashes
"Oh, I'm sorry, who's tiny now?"

No Ancestry will ever be more of a powerhouse than the others in PF2.

We all know that a bunch of draconic stuff is in Player Core 2, right?

…right?

And IIRC there's also a brand-new VH supposedly representing something the playerbase has wanted for a long time. The odds are pretty solid we're finally getting dragons.

JiCi wrote:

I just wish they made Kobolds less of a joke and more of a "pint-sized draconic powerhouse".

"Hey! Look! A tiny red lizard!"
*belches a cone of flames*
*joker turns to ashes
"Oh, I'm sorry, who's tiny now?"

Kobolds have like two silly feats. They’re not any more comical than the average Ancestry, and we’ve seen them be totally-sincere roles like diplomats and craftsmen in published content… on top of also being the Paizo union’s logo.

I see a lot of “I wish Kobolds weren’t jokes!” and very little of Kobolds being jokes, y’know?

Then explain to me these:

Others Probably... Assume that you are cowardly and won’t stick around in the face of danger.

Cringe: With pitiful posturing, you cause your foe to pull back a deadly attack.

Scamper: You instinctively know how to flee danger.

Ally's Shelter: In stressful circumstances, you find strength in your allies' example.

Grovel: With obsequious words and begging gestures, you convince your foe you're less of a threat.

which all goes against THIS tidbit:

If you want a character with oversized confidence, deadly cunning, and the ancient power of dragons flowing through their veins, you should play a kobold.

What kind of "overly confident" character would fake weakness again???

I'm not talking about making kobolds OP, just NOT like Halo's grunts who run away after seeing Master Chief. They have draconic origins, but they're small. They're physically frail, but they are cunning. They are not accustomed to open spaces, but they can utilize small openings for traps.

If anything, goblins should be Pathfinder's own grunts, not the kobolds...

… if you wanna play an overly confident kobold why would you take those feats? They’re not mandatory.

Swolbold Barbarians are really cool too.

I'm not talking about making kobolds OP, just NOT like Halo's grunts who run away after seeing Master Chief. They have draconic origins, but they're small. They're physically frail, but they are cunning. They are not accustomed to open spaces, but they can utilize small openings for traps.

It's a great thing they have Feats for snares, slithering through tight spaces, adding the backstabber trait to their attacks, casting draconic magic, breath weapons, flight, natural attacks and venom, bonuses to intimidation and successful saves against fear... What Kobold character are you wanting to build that the current options don't let you?

The second PC I ever rolled for PF2 was a Kobold 'Barbarian,' especially blessed by cloud dragon ancestors with the abilities of the Draconic Instinct subclass. She grew up in the Mbe'ke city of Cloudspire, where kobolds are full citizens alongside dwarves who share a love of dragons, and she made her living as a bodyguard for traveling diplomats. Zenzele speaks many languages eloquently, can cast some draconic magic with the best of 'em, and isn't any funnier in a brawl than a dwarf would be.

For such a fan of Kobolds, you're choosing to only see the worst in them. There's more than enough support for a non-silly one as a PC.

keftiu wrote:

We all know that a bunch of draconic stuff is in Player Core 2, right?

…right?

And IIRC there's also a brand-new VH supposedly representing something the playerbase has wanted for a long time. The odds are pretty solid we're finally getting dragons.

That would be interesting, but I'm not going to hold out for it. Especially since BattleZoo has already hit the draconic options ball out of the park. :)

Brand new VH in Player Core 2 for which the player base has been clamouring at length? ...So, obviously it's slime people, right guys? Right?

… if you wanna play an overly confident kobold why would you take those feats? They’re not mandatory.

Swolbold Barbarians are really cool too.

Because some of the those feats could be beneficial gameplay-wise. These are attached to a very dumb "name" however.

JiCi wrote:

I'm not talking about making kobolds OP, just NOT like Halo's grunts who run away after seeing Master Chief. They have draconic origins, but they're small. They're physically frail, but they are cunning. They are not accustomed to open spaces, but they can utilize small openings for traps.

It's a great thing they have Feats for snares, slithering through tight spaces, adding the backstabber trait to their attacks, casting draconic magic, breath weapons, flight, natural attacks and venom, bonuses to intimidation and successful saves against fear... What Kobold character are you wanting to build that the current options don't let you?

For such a fan of Kobolds, you're choosing to only see the worst in them. There's more than enough support for a non-silly one as a PC.

I'm not saying that they don't have the actual advantageous feats. I'm just saying that they have more flawed aspects that shouldn't be part of their characters, probably more than any of the core ancestries. I've found... one feat for elves highlighting their aloofness towards others... and zero feat for halflings highlighting their "laziness". Goblins don't get feats highlighting a huge flaw either.

If anything, one more reason I would love to see kobolds as a core ancestry is that they would get more support. For instance, halflings have 14 feats at 1st level, while kobolds have 9. This goes for heritages as well. I'm still waiting for a Wyvaran heritage for kobolds... that or a feat that makes a kobold Medium.

Goblins literally have feats about bring pyromaniacs, being trash scavengers, and singing "annoying" songs. All things that i feel like show case their "flaws."

I will add two more things.

1) some people do like the characterization of Kobolds as "whimpy" under-dogs. So having feats that reflect that characterization is fine especially since they arent the only ones.

2) the feats mentioned can simply be parts of tactics, a kobold can lean into whimper without it being a genuine aspect of their character. Playing up the sterotypes so that others may underestimate them.

Goblins literally have feats about bring pyromaniacs, being trash scavengers, and singing "annoying" songs. All things that i feel like show case their "flaws."

I will add two more things.

1) some people do like the characterization of Kobolds as "whimpy" under-dogs. So having feats that reflect that characterization is fine especially since they arent the only ones.

2) the feats mentioned can simply be parts of tactics, a kobold can lean into whimper without it being a genuine aspect of their character. Playing up the sterotypes so that others may underestimate them.

And now I want to make a Small Catfolk Adopted by Kobolds who uses Cringe and Grovel reflavoured as The Eyes.

Definitely a Swashbuckler. With boots.

Goblins literally have feats about bring pyromaniacs, being trash scavengers, and singing "annoying" songs. All things that i feel like show case their "flaws."

Those aren't flaws IMO...

1) some people do like the characterization of Kobolds as "whimpy" under-dogs. So having feats that reflect that characterization is fine especially since they arent the only ones.

When were kobolds ever wimpy?

2) the feats mentioned can simply be parts of tactics, a kobold can lean into whimper without it being a genuine aspect of their character. Playing up the sterotypes so that others may underestimate them.

That's ONE interpretation though, because at its core, you fake weakness, because you can, not because you immediately trick the opponent afterward.

Those aren't flaws IMO...

So... "constantly concerned about their own physical wellbeing, and willing to take a few social hits if that's what it takes to survive" is a flaw, but "eats garbage and sings in profoundly irritating ways" isn't?

If that's the case, I think this is starting to be less about kobolds, and more about you.

When were kobolds ever wimpy?

When were they not? I've literally never encountered a Kobold in an AP that wasn't either wimpy or relying on trickery.

Goblins literally have feats about bring pyromaniacs, being trash scavengers, and singing "annoying" songs. All things that i feel like show case their "flaws."

I will add two more things.

1) some people do like the characterization of Kobolds as "whimpy" under-dogs. So having feats that reflect that characterization is fine especially since they arent the only ones.

2) the feats mentioned can simply be parts of tactics, a kobold can lean into whimper without it being a genuine aspect of their character. Playing up the sterotypes so that others may underestimate them.

Halflings also have several feats based around how ignorable they are, which feels damning to me.