It’s a Trap!

Friday, July 6, 2018

Hazards are some of the most common challenges in Pathfinder, apart from monsters, and the most common hazards are traps. Most of the hazards in the Pathfinder Playtest are traps, but there are also environmental hazards like mold and quicksand, or even haunts. Rather than have different rules for each type of hazard, in the playtest, hazards all have a unified format, though how you might find them and deal with them can be quite different.

Noticing a Hazard

Most hazards can be noticed using Perception, although simple or obvious magical hazards are easily noticeable via detect magic and similar magic. Some hazards are so easy to locate that you might notice them even if you aren't even searching. Other hazards might be created or hidden in a particularly devious way and require a certain proficiency rank to notice them before it's too late, even if you're searching. (The rogue's Trap Finder feat improves this even further in the case of traps, but any character with legendary Perception can find any Perception-based hazard—not just rogues!) These harder-to-locate hazards don't appear until higher levels, since it's incredibly unlikely to encounter a level 1 trap created by a legendary crafter, though that doesn't mean all high-level hazards are hard to notice. For instance, the most dangerous example hazard below, the Armageddon Orb, is trivial for almost anyone to notice.

Disabling a Hazard

The skill needed to disable a hazard varies. Traps are usually disabled via Thievery, environmental hazards via Nature or Survival, and haunts via Occultism or Religion, though there are exceptions in every category. Many hazards require a certain number of successes before they are fully disabled, and a critical success typically counts as two successes. A critical failure means you've accidentally triggered the hazard! Many physical hazards can also be destroyed by brute force. In many cases, breaking the trigger mechanism might set the trap off prematurely, which you might be able to do from a safe distance. We felt it was really important to make dealing with hazards a more narrative experience without taking lots of extra time or requiring the GM to make up details on the spot, and so every skill that can be used to disable a hazard is listed in the stat block, along with a description of the how a PC would use that skill to do so.

Simple or Complex?

Out of everything in the playtest, hazards may be the one component for which you can get the best preview right now. How? Starfinder. We had already created an early framework for hazards by the time Starfinder came around, so when I was asked to create a framework for Starfinder's traps, I adapted what we had for the Pathfinder Playtest, and the rest of the Starfinder Core Rulebook team liked what they saw. We've refined the playtest's system since then, which means that we have two main types of hazards: simple hazards that trigger, take their reaction, and are then done, and complex hazards that roll into initiative and shift the game into encounter mode until the PCs deal with them (or at least escape).

For Example…

Let's take a look at several sample hazards!

Hidden Pit Hazard 0

Mechanical, Trap

Stealth DC 16

Description A trapdoor covers a 10-foot-square pit that is 20 feet deep.

Disable Thievery DC 12 to remove the trapdoor, making the trap no longer hidden (Perception DC 0 to notice)

AC 10, TAC 7; Fort +1, Ref +1

Hardness 4 (trapdoor); Immunities critical hits, object immunities, precision damage

[[R]] Pitfall

Trigger A creature walks onto the trapdoor.

Effect The triggering creature falls in and takes falling damage (typically 10 bludgeoning damage). That creature can use the Grab Edge reaction to avoid falling.

Reset The trap still causes falling damage if anyone falls in, but the trapdoor must be reset manually for the trap to become hidden again.

Ah, the pit, the most basic of all simple traps. Anybody can find a hidden pit, even if they aren't searching for it, because the Stealth DC doesn't require a proficiency rank. If someone walks onto the trapdoor, the pit uses its reaction to open up, and the triggering creature might fall. The Disable entry explains how a character can pop the trapdoor off and make the pit obvious to all. Still might want to be careful crossing, though!

Armageddon Orb Hazard 23

Magical, Trap

Stealth DC 10 or detect magic

Description A roiling red orb, forged from a drop of Rovagug's blood, rains fire from the sky when a specified condition is met.

Disable Thievery DC 51 (legendary) to imbue thieves' tools with aspects representing Asmodeus and Sarenrae and use them to drain away the orb's power over 10 minutes, taking 5 fire damage each round during that time

[[R]] Burn It All (divine, evocation, fire)

Trigger A special condition set by the trap's creator, typically on the event of her death.

Effect Fire rains from the sky in a 100-mile radius, dealing 10d6 fire damage to creatures and objects in the area (Reflex DC 46 for half damage, or no damage on a critical success). Any creature reduced to 0 Hit Points in this way dies instantly. This is not enough damage to completely burn away a forest or level a mountain or city, but it typically kills most creatures in the area.

This one was pure, over-the-top fun to write. What would a level 23 hazard even look like? This one is really obvious but incredibly difficult to disable. The effect's damage is not even remotely a threat to high-level PCs—but if they care about any NPCs in the region, chances are they're not going to want to set this thing off!

Bloodthirsty Urge Hazard 10

Haunt

Stealth DC 29 (trained)

Description An object imbued with echoes of a vicious mind tries to kill someone who comes near.

Disable Religion DC 27 (master) to exorcise the spirit or Diplomacy DC 29 (expert) to talk it down

[[R]] Quietus (emotion, fear, illusion, mental, occult)

Trigger A creature moves within 10 feet of the haunted object.

Effect The haunt takes control of the triggering creature, forcing it to attack itself. The creature is affected by phantasmal killer (DC 25), except that instead of mental damage, the damage type is based on a weapon the creature has drawn, an object it holds, or its unarmed attack damage if it's holding nothing.

Here's an example of a haunt. As you can see, it uses the same basic framework as the other hazards, so once you learn the rules, you can use them flexibly for almost any hazard you can dream up! In this case, a PC could use Religion to exorcise the haunt, but a character could also potentially use Diplomacy to talk it down. Still, the master of Religion has the advantage with an easier DC. You could even imagine an adventure where it matters how the PCs deal with a hazard. Perhaps exorcising a haunt using Religion helps sanctify the area, while using Diplomacy might persuade the spirit to impart some hints to the PCs about what happened before it departs.

Spinning Blade Pillar Hazard 4

Complex, Mechanical, Trap

Stealth +10 (trained) or DC 24 (expert) to notice the control panel

Description A metal pole with three razor-sharp spinning blades is hidden in the floor, connected to trigger plates in up to eight floor tiles and a hidden control panel within 30 feet.

Disable Thievery DC 18 (trained) twice on the pillar, or Thievery DC 16 (expert) once on the control panel deactivates the entire trap

AC 19, TAC 15; Fort +6, Ref +10

Hardness 11 (2 dents) on the pillar, denting the panel causes the trap to stay constantly active and prevents disabling the panel; Immunities critical hits, object immunities, precision damage

[[R]] Rising Pillar (attack)

Trigger A creature steps on one of the floor tiles.

Effect The trap pops up in a grid intersection and makes a spinning blade attack against one adjacent creature (if any), then rolls initiative.

Routine (3 actions) On its initiative, the trap spends its first action making a spinning blade attack against each adjacent creature, its second action to move straight in a random direction (roll 1d4 to determine the direction), and its third action to attack each adjacent creature. This trap doesn't take a multiple attack penalty.

Speed 10 ft.

[[A]] Melee spinning blade +12, Damage 2d10+5 slashing

Reset The trap deactivates and resets after 1 minute.

This is the first complex trap ever created for the game. It was also responsible for the first death in the game, as Logan kept rolling randomly for the blade's movement, which just happened to be wherever Stephen's rogue had moved while trying to avoid it—and then it rolled right back over him after he fell unconscious. Note that the complex trap has a Stealth bonus, rather than just a DC, since it actually rolls for initiative in encounter mode (using Stealth). If your party has an expert in Thievery who can find the hidden panel (we didn't; our expert lay bleeding on the ground), this hazard is actually a breeze to disable, but even a trained character can disable it with patience, and a not-so-patient character can always smash it apart with enough big hits to deal 11 or more damage.

So what do you think? Care to hazard an opinion?

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The "Grab Edge" rection. Please, for the love of Aroden, just call it "a reaction"
Otherwise, great blog, I loved the spinning thingy and the armaggedon orb!


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So how many actions is it to attempt a skill check to disable a hazard?

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NielsenE wrote:
The Grab Edge reaction mentioned, I'm assuming it must be a fixed/default DC? since the hazard doesn't mention one?

It hasn't really been mentioned yet, but my bet is that it's based on either the athletics DC to climb or the trap's DC. That's a benefit of having saves and skills progress at very similar rates.

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
If Grab Edge is a reaction, does that mean a Paladin that used Divine Grace that round can't grab an edge?
It's not even clear if Grab Edge requires a roll. If it does proc a save though, I would certainly hope Divine Grace has text allowing you to proc it as a free action as part of another reaction that gives you a save. Or maybe that would be a feat upgrade, though I'd think it should be part of the base ability.

I'm guessing that Grab Edge is a proficiency-gated ability of the Acrobatics skill or Reflex save against a DC set in the ability. In PF1, it was a DC 20 Reflex to grab an edge if you missed a jump. The Grab Edge reaction applies that rule in a wider variety of situations.


Interesting.

What does the '+10 trained' refer too? Does it increase the 'DC24 Expert' DC or something else?


Diego Rossi wrote:
Roswynn wrote:


And, a Grab Edge reaction... now I'm starting to worry a bit. I can totally understand codifying combat options, and even Seek and a couple others which will see a lot of use... but, Mark, how long is the list of actions and reactions? I'm a bit scared right now.

I think it is something you get automatically when you get the required proficiency level in reflex saves. I would think that trained will suffice.

I think that there will be a lot of reactions, actions that you will be able to do with a minimum level of proficiency but need to be formalized somewhat.
If, as I think, they will be essentially mundane actions, I feel that they will be easy to remember.

Mmm... I hope you're right, Diego.

... Kind of funny for once being the only one not really enthusiastic about one of these blogs ;)


Ok give it up, who in Paizo is a Belgium Stan who pushed for the article on Hazard today?


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dragonhunterq wrote:

Interesting.

What does the '+10 trained' refer too? Does it increase the 'DC24 Expert' DC or something else?

That is the trap's Stealth bonus. The trap is Trained in Stealth, but can only be spotted by someone who is Expert in Perception.

Since Initiative is now tied to skills, the trap needs to roll Stealth for Initiative, so both the bonus and the passive DC are listed.


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dragonhunterq wrote:

Interesting.

What does the '+10 trained' refer too? Does it increase the 'DC24 Expert' DC or something else?

That's its stealth bonus, because it rolls for initiative as a complex active trap using it.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?


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I'm not sure I like Dents replacing HP for objects, I mean, a high level characters should be able to break objects with less hits if it is doing more damage.

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I am a bit confused trying to picture the Armageddon Orb.

It says the Orb rains fire from the sky, and that the fire covers 100 mile radius.

So are we disabling an Orb that is floating 100s of feet above the ground? Or does the Orb magically teleport from the bad guys lair up into the sky? or what?


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Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I assume the sky fills with dark mystical red clouds that rain fire.


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graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Dammit gray quit breaking the systems RAW already :P

As for bulk, maybe your characters weight determines how much bulk they have :P


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I really like this. Fixes stuff I didn't realized needed fixing.


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Also, what is the point of having Immunity to Critical hits if there is not HP?


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"Thievery" Please take that term to a shed and backstab it. Seems especially non-intuitive to newbies IMHO.

Environmental Hazards disabled via Nature or Survival...
I wonder about this, should these skills be more distinguished/exclusive?
Seems like Survival would be more appropriate being about surviving hazards of nature?
Nature could tell you info about the hazard perhaps, but I don't like this much overlap.
At this point I would ask why aren't they just merged into 1 skill?
(Nature would probably be go-to skill for magical Fey traps though, evil mushroom circle harmonics etc)

I like the multi-success/check Disable process.
(could even require checks in multiple skills? i.e. not just 'any of X skills', but all of X + Y + Z skills)
I LOVE Complex/Encounter mode Traps.

Armaggedon Orb - I don't get why this wholly magical thing would need "thieves tools" to disable.
Seems more like Religion check to "imbue Asmodeus and Sarenrae aspects" anyways, and if it's
magical seems like 'anti magic' effects would be prime method, even if DC is really high like this...?
Like... "ohh, the evil red orb... let's shove lock picks into it", doesn't seem that compelling.
If you want to classify this as "Trap" (as opposed to contingent magic generally) whatever,
but taking that to mean it now MUST use "Thievery" (uggh...) to disable really puts me off.
OK, I can see high magic effect of The God of Thievery/Traps using "Thievery" to disable, but not this.
Wouldn't it be liable to start "normal" wild fire, burning down remainder of forests which survived the 10d6?
I agree with commenter on non-obvious link from orb to '100 miles of hellfire storm',
i.e. does the orb float in sky already, does it fly up and expand to 100 miles, does it just
belch and growl and surrounding 100 miles are remotely affected by it? Simple description could do.

Spinning Blade Stealth entry is weird, giving Stealth modifier to be used for Initiative isn't obvious.
I think it's better to just list Initiative modifier for Complex Traps that use Initiative.
(since it doesn't even matter that Trap really uses it's Stealth score for Init, it just needs appropriate Init mod)
Hardness is weird, it gives # and Dents for pillar, but then says Dents to panel prevent disabling.
So what is the hardness and Dents for panel? It doesn't say even though it discusses what happens if you Dent it.
We don't know much about Dents AFAIK, but the info sounds lacking for what happens if you destroy panel.
Is a destroyed object still able to have Dents? (preventing disabling per given text) Confusing.
The pillar movement is unclear, this is intersection-to-intersection? Does it always move 10'?
No limitations on area of movement given, so it can 'chase' people for miles up stairs, over rivers?
Seems like the Trap could use Area of Effect specified.
The movement aspect surprised me, and it almost seems more like magical animated object as described.
If it's purely physical I don't understand how the spinning part can move freely while controlled by panel.
I'm not even really sure of the visualization. A blender on wheels moving around?
Is it connected to original exit point somehow? When it deactivates does it return thru original intersection?
Seems reasonable to give it Construct type (for people good at damaging Contructs etc).


willuwontu wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Dammit gray quit breaking the systems RAW already :P

As for bulk, maybe your characters weight determines how much bulk they have :P

LOL Don't mind me, I'm looking for my old 'bag of rats' so I have something to trigger pit taps... ;)


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edduardco wrote:
Also, what is the point of having Immunity to Critical hits if there is not HP?

- It might matter for dents.

- It has hardness.
- Avoiding crit effects.
- It makes more sense than not being immune to crits.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

While I'm onboard for combining hazards into a single stat block, a lot of the specifics here seem problematic or off.

1) Not at all a fan of the flavor description of how you disable a hazard. Sure, you could take the lid of the pit, but you could jam the mechanism (and to Mark's comment that it won't support weight if you walk over it, I cry foul! If the lid can't hold your weight, there's no need to make it a trap door in the first place, it's just a cover designed to break when weight is on it - plus, how much weight? Would a pixie set it off?), you could lay planks across it, etc. It all depends on the choice the disabler makes. I know I wouldn't want to take the trap door off - it limits your ability to trick an enemy to trigger it later, and probably takes longer than jamming the mechanism. Same issue with the Armageddon orb, why specify that you imbue your tools with Asmodius and Sarenrae power, when you could just as easily imbue with para elemental ice power, or re-write the tiny runes on the surface of it to make it not work? And since when can a rogue imbue their thieves tools with the power of a deity in the first place? If that's a skill, I'd think being able to imbue weapons with power would be a pretty easy trick also.
2) So you can avoid a pit fall with the grab edge reaction? How come you can't make a reflex save anymore to jump to safety? Seems like a pretty limited escape option.
3) Can you no longer blast haunts with positive energy to disable them, now you only can deal with them with religion or diplomacy (for this example at least)? Seems like a historically hard to deal with hazard is even harder now.
4) Spinning blade is pretty cool overall. Not really sure what 2 dents means, but per an earlier comment, if it's somehow replacing object hit points, that doesn't make a lot of sense. 12 damage shouldn't do the exact same as 112 damage to the spinning blade.
5) Why does the spinning blade do 2d10+5 damage? I thought all weapons did a single die of damage, unless they're magic. Is it a +1 spinning blade? If so, can that magic blade be recovered as treasure? If not, how can my PC arm themselves with 2d10 damage non-magical blades, and then enchant them further?


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edduardco wrote:
Also, what is the point of having Immunity to Critical hits if there is not HP?

Because you need a specific amount of damage to beat their Hardness and Dent them. You can't get lucky and hit a kidney with your dagger when attacking a trap door. If you're only able to swing hard enough to do 1d4+4 vs an 11 Hardness, you're not gonna be able to dent it, so let the Fighter with the Earthbreaker up to smash it to bits.

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Grumpus wrote:

I am a bit confused trying to picture the Armageddon Orb.

It says the Orb rains fire from the sky, and that the fire covers 100 mile radius.

So are we disabling an Orb that is floating 100s of feet above the ground? Or does the Orb magically teleport from the bad guys lair up into the sky? or what?

I imagine it floating menacingly above a wizard tower, Eye of Sauron style.


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graystone wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Dammit gray quit breaking the systems RAW already :P

As for bulk, maybe your characters weight determines how much bulk they have :P

LOL Don't mind me, I'm looking for my old 'bag of rats' so I have something to trigger pit taps... ;)

The bag of rats requires 1 resonance to attune and 1 to use.


Grumpus wrote:

I am a bit confused trying to picture the Armageddon Orb.

It says the Orb rains fire from the sky, and that the fire covers 100 mile radius.

So are we disabling an Orb that is floating 100s of feet above the ground? Or does the Orb magically teleport from the bad guys lair up into the sky? or what?

I'm guessing the disarming is before the orb has been triggerd

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Also that trigger condition only refers to triggering the trap door opening. It in no way mentions how much weight or bulk would actually break through the trap door. Per Mark, it would seem not a lot - and that this pit trap door is a lot flimsier than a structural trap door intended to be used to move from one floor to another, and can support the weight of a creature.


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Remy P Gilbeau wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Also, what is the point of having Immunity to Critical hits if there is not HP?
Because you need a specific amount of damage to beat their Hardness and Dent them. You can't get lucky and hit a kidney with your dagger when attacking a trap door. If you're only able to swing hard enough to do 1d4+4 vs an 11 Hardness, you're not gonna be able to dent it, so let the Fighter with the Earthbreaker up to smash it to bits.

I'm not sure critical hits only apply to organs, that is why in PF1 Constructs and Undeads are not longer immune to critical hits and precision damage. Critical hits represents a lucky hit that inflicts extra damage, so I'm not sure objects should be immune.

EDIT: In PF2 critical hits is not only a matter of luck it can also represents the difference in power of high level vs low


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Ckorik wrote:
graystone wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Dammit gray quit breaking the systems RAW already :P

As for bulk, maybe your characters weight determines how much bulk they have :P

LOL Don't mind me, I'm looking for my old 'bag of rats' so I have something to trigger pit taps... ;)
The bag of rats requires 1 resonance to attune and 1 to use.

Plus an unknown number of Rat Activation Actions

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edduardco wrote:
Remy P Gilbeau wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Also, what is the point of having Immunity to Critical hits if there is not HP?
Because you need a specific amount of damage to beat their Hardness and Dent them. You can't get lucky and hit a kidney with your dagger when attacking a trap door. If you're only able to swing hard enough to do 1d4+4 vs an 11 Hardness, you're not gonna be able to dent it, so let the Fighter with the Earthbreaker up to smash it to bits.
I'm not sure critical hits only apply to organs, that is why in PF1 Constructs and Undeads are not longer immune to critical hits and precision damage. Critical hits represents a lucky hit that inflicts extra damage, so I'm not sure objects should be immune.

Lucky hits against vulnerable parts of your target. Objects are usually homogeneous, without any weak spots you might get lucky and hit.

Scarab Sages

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

What if PCs want to jam the pit door to walk across?

The lid wasn't built to support their weight, so they would still fall, though it would probably break the lid at that point and leave it exposed like if they had removed it.

I guarantee this is going to irk a lot of players, as it is a pretty common trope to fix the door shut and walk over it, thus avoiding the trap. Telling players its impossible to do so, or that all pit traps have collapsible trap doors, is going to be irritating for sure.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Objects are usually homogeneous

They are? Oh dear, I think there might be something wrong with my perception of the world around me.

But jokes aside, I can totally see homogeneous objects being immune to crits, especially the ones that don't include any stress points in it's overall shape. Like a metal sphere, or something.

A butter churn or a tent on the other hand, are relatively complex objects that most definitely break in certain ways more easily than others.

Scarab Sages

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James Martin wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
James Martin wrote:
Do you make a Stealth check to find the hazard or a Perception check?

Perception. The listed number is the Hazard's Stealth.

This seems an awkward way to display this information. Looking at it, I would think I have to make a Stealth check, instead of making a Perception check vs that Stealth score. Sure, I'll get used to it, but if I am a new player reading that, I'd find it counterintuitive.

I agree, this is a very counterintuitive way to write that stat block. Sure, you can explain at the beginning of this section of the book what the Stealth entry stands for. But if the goal is to make this game easy for new people to pick up and play, then this does not meet that goal.

I would label that entry in the stat block as Notice Perception DC16. This would allow for design space to make hazards noticeable by other things than Perception (like Survival for snares outdoors) if it made sense to do so.

My suggestion: Call things what they are, and make it intuitive to understand at a glance without needing to necessarily read the, "how to read this stat block," section over and over just to understand how to read the stat block.


How does the “grab edge” reaction even work? Is it a reflex save to not fall? Is this available in any situation where you’d be pushed off a precipice?

All interesting stuff.

Scarab Sages

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Thebazilly wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

Interesting.

What does the '+10 trained' refer too? Does it increase the 'DC24 Expert' DC or something else?

That is the trap's Stealth bonus. The trap is Trained in Stealth, but can only be spotted by someone who is Expert in Perception.

Since Initiative is now tied to skills, the trap needs to roll Stealth for Initiative, so both the bonus and the passive DC are listed.

Wow, it makes sense now that you say it. But that is so NOT intuitive to how its written, that this is how it works. PLEASE for the love of all that's holy, make these stat block entries intuitive so its understandable at a glance.

Scarab Sages

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edduardco wrote:
I'm not sure I like Dents replacing HP for objects, I mean, a high level characters should be able to break objects with less hits if it is doing more damage.

Is that what that stands for?


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HedwickTheWorldly wrote:


For example, as a purely hypothetical, Grab Edge could be a reaction made available as a Skill Feat for someone who is an Expert in Acrobatics, or it could be a Class Feat for Rogues. It precludes you from using any of your other reaction options, though, so in some cases the 10 damage may be a better choice.

I'd bet its a common reaction that anyone can use rather than something provided by a Feat.

The reaction is pretty common in media when characters fail in various ways (don't jump far enough to jump the gorge but they manage to Grab the Edge, get pushed or slip off something but manage to save themselves by Grabbing the Edge of a platform, etc).

By codifying the rules they make it easier to emulate various scenes.

edduardco wrote:
I'm not sure I like Dents replacing HP for objects, I mean, a high level characters should be able to break objects with less hits if it is doing more damage.

I think the idea is that every X amount of damage an attack inflicts a dent. A 22 damage attack would inflict 2 dents on an 11 hardness pillar. If that pillar can only take 2 dents it would be ruined.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

What if PCs want to jam the pit door to walk across?

The lid wasn't built to support their weight, so they would still fall, though it would probably break the lid at that point and leave it exposed like if they had removed it.

That seems fine as an off the cuff ruling, but nothing in the trap description indicates that. And indeed, that the door is 'making' a reaction to open and dump them implies it can their support their weight for some amount of time.

Also not included: a minimum weight to set it off (because properly paranoid adventurers will test the limits of that sort of thing), or how to deal with it once 'disabled,' ie, opened: still a big open pit, which is still a hazard. And yeah. Not responding to non creatures seems like an oversight. For one thing, it makes 10' poles useless.

------

The spinning blade trap is somewhat puzzling. 'Denting' the panel is an obviously bad thing, as it limits options for dealing with it, so once meta-knowledge sets in, no one should even try. Alternately, the trap setter SHOULD 'Dent' it, as it makes it more difficult to deal with, with no effect on the effectiveness of the trap.

Further, the spinning trap should have limits. As written, it seems like it can travel infinitely far from its starting point with the right random rolls, at least until the the time limit is up and it instantly teleports back (and heals/repairs? 'Reset' is vague in this context). It also seems to take no damage for bashing into walls repeatedly, which seems odd for a set of spinning blades.

Like the trapdoor, it seems like rats (or even roaches) will set this off, but tossing rocks, probing with poles or other time honored trap finding methods won't.

Short version: the traps feel 100% game mechanical and disconnected from the game world/environment. Need a lot more information than what's provided.

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The haunt seems... Ok? I'm not sure how reasonable those DCs are for level 10 or how exeorcising or diplomacy happens, even mechanically (how many actions is an exorcism? What is quietus in this context?), but the entertainment value of PCs 'three stooging' themselves to death with open hand slaps over the course of many, many rounds makes this less a trap and more entertainment.


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You know, there's nothing keeping the blade pillar contained. 10 rounds of random walk could put it out of where you could reasonably expect the thing to be constructed. What happens when a blade pillar goes off an edge, or into a wall, or onto the pristine neighbor's lawn (which you were not allowed to build tracks in for the pillar)?


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Tallow wrote:
edduardco wrote:
I'm not sure I like Dents replacing HP for objects, I mean, a high level characters should be able to break objects with less hits if it is doing more damage.
Is that what that stands for?

I thinks so, but I'm not completely sure

Ultimatecalibur wrote:
I think the idea is that every X amount of damage an attack inflicts a dent. A 22 damage attack would inflict 2 dents on an 11 hardness pillar. If that pillar can only take 2 dents it would be ruined.

If that is how it works then I'm totally on board


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tallow wrote:
Wow, it makes sense now that you say it. But that is so NOT intuitive to how its written, that this is how it works. PLEASE for the love of all that's holy, make these stat block entries intuitive so its understandable at a glance.

It's the kind of thing that will feel intuitive when you're used to it. There's always a design language learning curve that people forget about once they're past it.

For instance, the Stealth DC (instead of calling it a perception DC) is similarly because passive uses of a skill are generally presented as a DC in that skill, rather than the things that can detect it. It actually could provide the flexibility for other skill uses that can flexibly dictate when they can be used to beat Stealth (like traps, or specific terrains, or whatever), but the general rule that perception can be used to overcome a stealth DC will always make sense once you're used to it.


So rocks fall, players die. i.e. The GMs way to clear the slate.

"Um, actually my barbarian took the rock catching feat..." "Still raging." "Raaaarhh"

Rocks Fall

Scarab Sages

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I have an issue with the Armageddon Orb as a trap. If its a thing just sitting there on a pedestal, sure. But if the bad guy has it in their pocket and the trigger is their death, do you even have a chance to notice it?

The things that aren't discussed on this are similar to PF1 traps that are triggered by the alarm spell. Can you disable the alarm spell? Some folks say that such traps can't be disabled if the alarm trigger is far enough away from the trap itself that you couldn't reach the trap to disable it.

In this case the brevity of the stat blocks is done in such a way that the attempt to cover many things for the GM actually brings up more questions than it answers.


Ckorik wrote:
graystone wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The lid wasn't built to support their weight

LOL Isn't this Bulk in the new game? How much Bulk sets off the trap?

EDIT: actually, the trigger is "A creature walks onto the trapdoor" so does that mean that weight of non-creatures doesn't matter? EI: the 2 ton boulder sits on it fine but an ant triggers it?

Dammit gray quit breaking the systems RAW already :P

As for bulk, maybe your characters weight determines how much bulk they have :P

LOL Don't mind me, I'm looking for my old 'bag of rats' so I have something to trigger pit taps... ;)
The bag of rats requires 1 resonance to attune and 1 to use.

And is limited to 3 rats a day. But when you attune to it, you recharge it with as many rats as boots you are wearing.


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Wandering Wastrel wrote:
Plus an unknown number of Rat Activation Actions

Wouldn't that be Operate Rat followed by Command Rat?


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Voss wrote:
Alternately, the trap setter SHOULD 'Dent' it, as it makes it more difficult to deal with, with no effect on the effectiveness of the trap.

Denting the panel would only make sense if you assumed the trap setter would never use that hallway or whatever again. Which is possible, but the idea of the override is that usually the trapper wants a way to bypass the trap when necessary.


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Wow, it makes sense now that you say it. But that is so NOT intuitive to how its written, that this is how it works. PLEASE for the love of all that's holy, make these stat block entries intuitive so its understandable at a glance.
It's the kind of thing that will feel intuitive when you're used to it. There's always a design language learning curve that people forget about once they're past it....

And that's exactly what second edition should be trying to avoid. Natural language is preferable here. We don't need things from the *trap's* perspective. Say what the rolls are to notice it.

Scarab Sages

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RicoTheBold wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Wow, it makes sense now that you say it. But that is so NOT intuitive to how its written, that this is how it works. PLEASE for the love of all that's holy, make these stat block entries intuitive so its understandable at a glance.

It's the kind of thing that will feel intuitive when you're used to it. There's always a design language learning curve that people forget about once they're past it.

For instance, the Stealth DC (instead of calling it a perception DC) is similarly because passive uses of a skill are generally presented as a DC in that skill, rather than the things that can detect it. It actually could provide the flexibility for other skill uses that can flexibly dictate when they can be used to beat Stealth (like traps, or specific terrains, or whatever), but the general rule that perception can be used to overcome a stealth DC will always make sense once you're used to it.

Sure, I get that. And as an avid gamer who's been learning new games (some far more complex than Pathfinder--Hero anyone?) I can make that adjustment easily.

But one of the goals of creating PF2, I thought, was to make it as intuitive as possible for new gamers, and if changing a word in a stat block to something more intuitive doesn't change the nature of the rule and helps with intuitively reading the stat block, then that's a design language learning curve we don't need.


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Tallow wrote:
I have an issue with the Armageddon Orb as a trap. If its a thing just sitting there on a pedestal, sure. But if the bad guy has it in their pocket and the trigger is their death, do you even have a chance to notice it?

Simple solution: Shatter any semblance of mood/atmosphere by asking the Big Bad "Is that an Armageddon Orb in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?"

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Armageddon Orb definitely needs more description - dimensions for sure.


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I really like the look of this, especially incorporating the Haunt rules into the baseline rules. Anything that reduces out the outside checking a GM has to do for traps gets a thumbs up from me.

Quandary wrote:

"Thievery" Please take that term to a shed and backstab it. Seems especially non-intuitive to newbies IMHO.

I strongly disagree. I think most people will see Thievery and think of exactly the things the skill is used for- disarming traps, opening locks and picking pockets. I find it a big upgrade over Disable Device and Sleight of Hand.


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Evilgm wrote:
Quandary wrote:

"Thievery" Please take that term to a shed and backstab it. Seems especially non-intuitive to newbies IMHO.

I strongly disagree. I think most people will see Thievery and think of exactly the things the skill is used for- disarming traps, opening locks and picking pockets. I find it a big upgrade over Disable Device and Sleight of Hand.

What universe do you live in that you find Thievery more intuitive as the skill to disable a device than the Disable Device skill?

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