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Quote of what's been said before on PAO

Zollqir wrote:

#349 mega

PAO is the most misunderstood spell in the game (and with good reason. It's not well written). Here is what it can actually do:

It functions as the spell Greater Polymorph (which itself functions as either: animal or magical beast as Beast Shape IV, elemental as Elemental Body III, humanoid as Alter Self, plant as Plant Shape II, dragon as Form of the Dragon I; Note that this means PAO cannot do aberrations, constructs, fey, monstrous humanoid, oozes, outsiders other than elementals, undead, or vermin), with the following exceptions:

1)The duration works differently, as shown in the tables (potentially being permanent)
2)It can turn creatures into objects, using the rules listed in the spell
3)It can turn objects into creatures (while it says it can do this, the mechanics for doing so are not fully explained, due to how polymorph changed between 3.5 and PF. For instance, what is the objects HD? BAB? base saves? etc.)
4)Finally, PAO can be used to mimic one of the following spells instead of the above uses: baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud

Note that when polymorphing into a creature, you do not gain that creature's stats or special abilities. Instead, you gain bonuses to your own ability scores as appropriate for the polymorph spell (Beast Shape IV for animals, etc.), and any special abilities that polymorph spell lists, as well as all natural weapons.


chainlynx42 wrote:

I'm presently thinking about a Synthesist/Oracle/Mystic Theurge build. The concept being to use the Mystic Thuerge class to gain roughly double the number of available spells and then use Combine Spells to cast as many uses of Evolution Surge (Lesser and Greater too). The initial concept being to take the Limbs evolution as much as possible, take a 1 level dip for cheetah's sprint and try to hit 6750 land speed (mach 1) or higher.

However, while exploring more practical applications of this build, I was wondering if it were possible to just take the Extra Feat Evolution and take an absurd number of feats and take whole feat trees when you need them.

Downsides to this method: it takes a lot of turns to cast all of those spells, and you have to use your eidolon's BAB, which will be bad.

Anyway, the actual question is whether a Fused Eidolon can take the Extra Feat evolution? Any commentary on the build is welcome too.

Considering the extra feat evolution is only available to eidolons of summoners with the Twinned Summoner Archetype, I'd say that puts a dent in your plan.


My two cents:

Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Emphasis mine.

The sneak attack damage is part of the damage of Harm, therefore it's subject to the same 1 hp minimum overall.


Somatic (S)

A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Material (M)

A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Focus (F)

A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

If we look at it purely RAW, nothing says that you need a free hand to manipulate Focus and Material components.


All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Cleromancy wrote:
Cleromancy involves casting bones and interpreting the results. Those able to arrive at the proper interpretation are granted knowledge of coming events. Roll 1d4 per caster level. Group the dice by like results, and choose one of the groups. For the duration of cleromancy, you can apply a luck bonus equal to the result of the selected dice to any d20 roll. You can apply this bonus to a number of rolls equal to the number of dice in the group. If cleromancy expires before you are able to allocate the total number of allotted bonuses, the remaining bonuses are lost.

All variable effects are the maximum, so the dice would all be 4.


Actually reading the feat (I shouldn't have assumed it was the sinlge line quoted in the original message), I agree with Cevah and Derklord.

Once per day, you can cast any spell as if it were one of your prepared spells or spells known. This action expends either a spell slot or a prepared spell of the same spell level. Casting a spell this way always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round.

1) It does allow you to cast any spell.

2) It doesn't matter whether it's an opposition spell, it only has a cost of 1 slot.

3) It's the caster's casting type.


Cevah wrote:

The Secret of Magical Discipline feat does not add a spell so the FAQ above has no relevance. Rather it states you can cast a spell using an existing slot of the correct level. This lets you cast *any* spell, no matter whose list. If you don't have a sufficient slot, you cannot cast it. If you don't have the casting stat, you cannot cast it.

/cevah

You missed this line.

Quote:
The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

As long as you don't use a class's spell slot to cast the spell I agree with you, otherwise it's gotta be on your class's spell list.


Relevant FAQ

FAQ wrote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

1) No.

2) Opposing spells still occupy 2 spell slots.

3) Type always depends on the caster not the list (unless an ability states otherwise).


Pressuring Strikes (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk of the mantis gains the sneak attack ability. This ability functions as the rogue ability of the same name, except it can be used only during a flurry of blows. The initial sneak attack damage is +1d6, and the damage increases by 1d6 every 4 levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces the monk’s 2nd-, 6th-, 10th-, 14th-, and 18th-level bonus feats.

You still have to meet the requirements for sneak attack (enemy is flat-footed, you're flanking, etc.), but you only get the sneak attack dice on a flurry of blows.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
D20 may have felt they were legally barred from referencing the base form / subtype requirement there (though I can't think why) or they may have just dropped it on the floor. When the Archives of Nethys conflict with d20pfsrd, always believe the former---especially since a few months back Paizo actually declared them the official online rules source.

Nah, I've found issues on both sites, and in this case both were wrong.

Always check the source material.


Minigiant wrote:

See this is why it is confusing because D20 has it as an Eidolon Evolution

"Extra Feat (Ex)

Source: PZO9480

The eidolon gains an extra feat. It must meet the prerequisites of the feat."

And doesn't need the twin Eidolon form

Yeah, I looked up the source material, it's available for both chained and unchained summoner eidolons, but it requires that the summoner has the Twinned Summoner Archetype which restricts the base form to either biped (chained eidolon), or twinned eidolon subtype (unchained eidolon).

It's definitely not intended for a figment familiar to be able to take it. It could be available RAW though.


FYI

The eidolon gains an extra feat. It must meet the prerequisites of the feat. Requirements: Twinned eidolon.

That is an unchained eidolon evolution.

Figment wrote:
Manifest Dreams (Su): At 3rd level, a figment is shaped by its master’s dreams. Each time the master awakens from a full night’s rest, he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions that don’t have a base form requirement. At 7th level, he can apply 2 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions; at 13th level, he can apply 3 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions.

Figment gives access to Eidolon evolutions, not Unchained Eidolon Evolutions. Even if it does, it requires a twinned eidolon base form, which means the figment cannot take it.


You can take them on any familiar. If you want to combine archetypes or use them on an improved familiar, make sure improved familiar and the archetype don't replace the same feature like normal archetypes.


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vhok wrote:
This is the rules forums you can’t just make up new races “outsider(orc)”??? If he counts as an orc he is also humanoid. That’s how it works

No it isn't, he counts as having the orc subtype, not as having the Humanoid type. Those are 2 different things.

Similarly, a human who takes Racial Heritage (Elf) does not count as a half-elf for selecting things.


Touch spells are not selectable by Weapon Focus and the like, Rays are. Look up relevant threads and post in them if you wish to discuss that.


Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly.

If it falls under those conditions, it's reflected.


Because the editor had the notion that force damage wasn't energy damage, but instead physical damage. They're wrong of course.


Firebug wrote:
Shift your grip on that Battle Poi so it no longer deals fire damage...

Same for my Mystic Bolts.


blahpers wrote:
Edit: Just noticed that it isn't even limited to melee weapons. I love the idea of "shifting my grip" on a musket so that it deals slashing damage. *facepalm*

I mean for ranged weapons with ammo, the damage type is determined by the ammo not the weapon, which is why we have blunt arrows and not blunt bows.


You are correct, the prerequisite refers to the ability to cast Psychic Magic, not spells from the Psychic Class Spell List (thanks paizo for making it confusing). As such, a Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer would meet that prerequisite.


Mesmerists are psychic casters, and as such use the rules for psychic magic.

Instead of verbal and somatic components, all psychic spells have components related to the caster’s inner being. The two psychic components are called emotion components and thought components. If a spell’s components line lists a somatic component, that spell instead requires an emotion component when cast by psychic spellcasters, and if it has a verbal component, it instead requires a thought component when cast by psychic spellcasters. Psychic spells cast by non-psychic arcane and divine casters use any listed somatic and verbal components as normal.


Xelaaredn wrote:

The unarmed strike, while yes it does take into account size increases, does not take into account effective size increases of a weapon. If you were playing a large brawler, yes, your damage would go up a step.

They do not stack, the effective size of the improvised weapon is increased, but is then overridden by the hinyasi ability that makes it equal the amount of the brawler's unarmed strike.

All three shikigami style feats bring it up three steps (assume 1d6>1d8>2d6>3d6) but you then "deal[s] damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon." So it goes right back down to whatever your current brawler damage with unarmed strikes is.

If you want to use the feat line, play a regular brawler, improvisation training doesn't care what size or effective size the weapon is that it is changing the damage of. Much like the warpriest's sacred weapon.

Only real problem here is that hinyasi doesn't have anything saying that it only uses your unarmed strike damage in place of the improvised weapon's damage if it is lower than your unarmed strike damage. Which sadly, makes shikigami style worthless for a hinyasi without a kind DM.

I see your point and disagree, but I wanna hear your explanation of how the following scenarios work, as that may change my mind.

Scenario:
A Hinyasi Brawler 8/Varisian Free-Style Fighter 3 with 22 Strength (+6 mod), power attack (-3/+6), Shikigami Manipulation, Dragon Ferocity, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) and all the necessary feats for those feats. The relevant items they have are a Caster Level 20 scroll of Read Magic (only 250gp, and we'll say the base damage is 1d4 as an improvised weapon) they're using as an improvised weapon and a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists.

If the above character has entered both the Dragon and Shikigami Styles, what is their damage with the scroll (xdy + z)? Explain why.

If the above character has Strong Jaw cast on them, what is their damage then?


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Well, I have two different answers now. Great.

No they had the right of it, I didn't see the standard action line in spikes.


If it's a natural attack (manticore spikes), they can be used during a full attack (though spikes would provoke AoOs from any creatures that threaten the manticore).

If it's an ability that says it's a standard action to use (mogaru firebolts) or an SU, or SLA, it is its own action.

Edit: Diego has the right answer.


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Darrag Oathsbane wrote:

Now to throw a wrench into the works.

I'm currently running a campaign where the PC's play as monstrous races. One of said PC's is playing a shadow. Having the ability to unlimited cohorts feels like it would cause problems rather quickly, so im looking or ideas to balance it.

For starters, I could require the Shadow to follow the same rules as a necromancer and have the spawn roll to break free at will. That or put a limit on the number of shadows the PC can keep in sway.

I do not want to remove the ability entirely, as the point of the game is to have fun, but I need to balance it.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

1. Don't let players be a shadow.

2. This deserves its own thread in the advice forum, not rules forum.


Quote:

hp 5 (1d8+1)

...

Str 9, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 9 (13 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +2 (+10 when jumping), Perception +8, Stealth +10, Survival +1

Perception: +1 (ranks) +1 (wis mod) +3 (class skill) +3 (Skill focus) = +8

Acrobatics: +2 (Dex mod) = +2
Stealth: +8 (tiny) +2 (dex mod) = +10
Survival: +1 (Wis mod) = +1


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
you could have a Mauler Familiar Imp

You can't have a mauler familiar Imp. Imp is an improved familiar which removes speaks with animals of its own kind. Mauler also replaces speak with animals of its own kind.


This sounds like it belongs in the PFS forums.


What it means, is that when you roll the damage for vital strike, all the bonuses to damage you would multiply on a critical hit (e.g. weapon specialization, enhancement bonus), is multiplied by the number of weapon damage dice you roll.

-----

Example:
If you're using a bastard sword in two-hands with -1/+2 power attack and a Strength score of 18 for a normal attack you would deal 1d10+(2+4)*1.5 or 1d10+9 damage.

With regular vital strike you would instead deal 2d10+9 damage.

With mythic vital strike you instead deal 2d10+(9)*2 or 2d10+18 damage.

With mythic vital strike and improved vital strike you would dead 3d10+(9)*3 or 3d10+27 damage.

If you were to crit while using mythic vital strike and improved vital strike you would deal (3d10+27)*2 damage.

-----

Essentially your critical modifier has nothing to do with Mythic Vital Strike, you simply multiply the bonus damage by the number of weapon damage dice you roll, if that bonus damage would be multiplied on a crit (e.g. sneak attack extra damage is the same regardless of how many weapon damage dice you roll).


Flagged as double post, respond in the main thread if you wish to reply to the topic.


baggageboy wrote:
I think looking through the lense of weapon versatility is a great. If a weapon is a type of weapon based so my on how you are dealing damage with it the weapon versatility allows any one handed or light weapon to do dex to damage when dealing slashing damage with slashing grace. That's a ruling that wwould have all sorts of people up in arms. So it is much more reasonable to say that a weapon is defined by isn't normal usage, not my the way you chose to deal damage with it in the moment.

Sure, I guess spending 4 feats instead spending 10.5k gp is too strong. It really is an unreasonable interpretation. [/sarcasm]

Not to mention the fact that you can't even select a weapon you make deal slashing damage with weapon versatility for slashing grace. Similarly, you can't select longsword for rogue finesse training even though you have an effortless lace longsword.

I do admit my example earlier was in error, as a dagger would count as a slashing weapon for taking slashing grace and slashing grace only cares whether you're wielding the chosen weapon (you could be using weapon versatility to deal bludgeoning damage and it'd still work with that weapon). However, if you didn't have slashing grace and were using it as a slashing weapon it wouldn't qualify for swashbuckler finesse.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
It depends on how the ability is worded. Swashbucklers Finesse states you gain the benefits of weapon finesse with a light or one handed piercing melee weapon. In this case they are talking about the weapon type. A dagger is a light piercing melee weapon so when using it the swashbuckler gains the benefit of weapon finesse even when using it to do slashing damage. Some abilities state you need to be doing a certain type of damage. If that is the case then Derklord is correct that it does not count as both.

Incorrect.

Quote:
Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal

If you're using it to deal slashing damage it doesn't count as a piercing weapon for things like swashbuckler finesse. If you use it to deal piercing damage it doesn't count as a slashing weapon for things like slashing grace.


I'd allow, but I'd also adjust the CR of encounters to account for the increase in power.


Temperans wrote:
side note: monster feats are just like regular feats. I don't get why some GMs house rule that monster feats can't be gained by PCs.

Because of this blurb in horror adventures:

Horror Adventures Page 78 wrote:
Monster feats were introduced in Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, though without a separate tag (all feats in Bestiary are monster feats except Craft Construct). Most of these feats apply specifically to monsters and might grant abilities that could be disruptive in the hands of PCs, although with the GM’s permission PCs can take one of these feats if they meet the prerequisites.

It explicitly takes GM permission to take them.


1) Works for all activatable magic items.

2) Scrolls and activating blindly only.

3) If your caster level is lower than necessary it can happen, so it can apply on both (depending on how low you roll your UMD check to emulate caster level).

4) Yes.


Diego Rossi wrote:

BTW:

Archives of Nethys wrote:
Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost.
So the answer to your original question is: They can't.
Title wrote:
Can bracers of armor add anything not flat cost?


LordKailas wrote:
ok, lets focus just on the FAQ. It says you have to use the abilities separately. So, you can't use them together, meaning you can't use them at the same time. So, by a strict interpretation of the FAQ you would have to pick one ability or the other to use during qualifying circumstances since you can't use them together.

Using them separately means that they are applied separately. The FAQ does not say you cannot use them at the same time, just that they must be used separately.

How would you run the quoted question?

Quote:

So, again, do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.


LordKailas wrote:
Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) are different abilities. If I power attack while using the teamwork feat precise strike I get to add the damage from both. The two feats are different abilities that fail to interact with each other in any meaningful way. Your comparison is no different. Because I get to add damage from both this falls into the category of different abilities that stack. Power attack also stacks with enhancement bonuses to damage. It also stacks with the damage bonus due to strength.

What part of the FAQ saying to treat them as separate abilities do you not understand? Having two sources of sneak attack is no different than having a source of precise strike, and a source of sneak attack. You apply all relevant abilities in situations where they apply.

Quote:
Different abilities stack unless otherwise specified. Abilities of the same name do not stack unless otherwise specified.

Incorrect, let's look at that FAQ again.

FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Name has nothing to do with their stacking, it's them being similar abilities.

So, again, do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.


LordKailas wrote:
Conversely, if two different abilities do not stack it means you do not get to add them together and/or apply both of them. If two abilities are in effect at the same time and they do not stack then they overlap.

Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) do not say they stack, nor do they stack for determining each other's effects. Do they both apply on a flanking attack where precise strike was used?

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 1

I have channel energy 2d6 3/day from class A and channel energy 1d6 3/day from class B.

If the two abilities stack, then this means I get channel energy 3d6 3/day.

If the two abilities do not stack then it means I have channel energy 2d6 3/day and channel energy 1d6 3/day. I can't use my 1d6 uses of channel energy to trigger my 2d6 channel energy ability or vise versa.

Correct, you have 2 different abilities that grant uses of different channels, and since each ability takes a standard action to use you cannot apply both at the same time.

Similarly but different, a monk and an Ioran paladin would grant two different ki pools. However, since only some monk abilities are specific to that ki pool you could spend ki from either pool for the other ones.

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 2

I have resist energy 30 Fire and I have Protection from Energy 120 Fire. I get hit for 50 points of fire damage.

If the two abilities stack, this means that I would reduce the 50 damage by 30 and then subtract the remaining 20 from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 100 points.

If the two abilities don't stack (which btw, they don't), then it means that i simply subtract the 50 points from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 70 points.

As you can see since they did not stack my resist energy of 30 did not benefit me in any way.

This is highly irrelevant, they interact how they do solely due to the lines in the spells.

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 3

If I have 1d6 sneak attack from Class A and 1d6 sneak attack from class B and I attack an enemy I'm flanking who is susceptible to sneak attack with an attack that deals 1d4+3 dmg.

If the abilities stack then I do 1d4+3+2d6 damage. If I roll a 2 on the d4, a 4 on the first d6 and a 3 on the second d6, then I do a total of 2+3+4+3 =12 dmg

If the abilities do not stack, they overlap. I roll each sneak attack die separately, the highest of the two get used and the other is ignored. so I would do 2+3+4 = 9 dmg.

This is incorrect, they are separate abilities and are treated as such, just as you would treat the extra damage from jabbing style and sneak attack on your second hit with an unarmed strike while flanking and using jabbing style. As such, an unarmed fighter 1/rogue 1 would deal an extra 2d6 damage in such a situation.

Quote:
To claim that I deal 12 dmg is to claim that they stack.

No, it's to claim that two separate abilities are applied separately when applicable, even if they qualify under the same circumstances.

Quote:
When two non-stacking abilities are applicable in the same moment then one of the two abilities must be ignored. To do otherwise is to stack them even if the two abilities work differently (as seen by example 2). An ability can not both stack and not stack. If two abilities stack they stack by every definition of stack. If two abilities do not stack then they do not stack by every definition of stack.

Then do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.

Likewise, does a ranger 1/shifter 2 get +1 or +2 when using survival to follow tracks?


This caster’s shield always has one arcane scroll and knows the same arcane spells as the wielder. When the spell on the scroll is cast, another scroll of a spell the wielder knows randomly manifests to replace it. The shield has no arcane spell failure. The shield can also read magic. It will often debate with its wielder for the most devastating course of action, but does what the wielder commands.

This +1 light wooden shield has a leather strip on the back on which a spellcaster can scribe a single spell as on a scroll. A spell so scribed requires half the normal cost in raw materials. The strip cannot accommodate spells of higher than 3rd level. The strip is reusable.

A random caster’s shield has a 50% chance of having a single medium scroll spell on it. The spell is divine (01–80 on d%) or arcane (81–100). A caster’s shield has a 5% arcane spell failure chance. The price of the shield is modified by the value of the scroll spell if one is currently scribed.

It's a +1 Light Wooden Shield.


Matthew Downie wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Having two sources of 1d6 Sneak Attack does not give you 2d6 Sneak Attack, it gives you 1d6 sneak attack twice.
What are you saying 1d6 twice means? If my base damage is 1d4+3, but I am flanking and have two sources of 1d6 Sneak damage, how do I calculate my damage?

1d4+3+1d6+1d6

It's two separate abilities, similarly a ranger 1/shifter 2 gets +2 on survival checks made to follow tracks.


The spell is still burning hands, it is not Cold Burning Hands. The bloodline alters the energy type, since you no longer have the bloodline you do not deal cold damage with it.


Xelethor wrote:
So you would lose the biped's free evolutions (to gain the quadrupeds) and you would actually change the biped's "Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11" stat array to the quadruped's "Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11" stat array each time it changed form?

Yes, as it's only the size change that doesn't modify the ability scores, not the change of base form.


Here's the feat.

Your eidolon is capable of serving you as a combat-trained mount. If the eidolon’s base form is not quadruped or serpentine, it also gains the ability to transmute its physical body into a form suitable for you to ride. This functions as the change shape ability, except the eidolon’s base form changes to either quadruped or serpentine and its size changes to be one size category larger than its summoner’s base size. Unlike other changes to size, this ability doesn’t increase the eidolon’s ability scores, reach, or weapon damage beyond that of its true form. (However, if the eidolon’s size is reduced by this ability, its reach and weapon damage are adjusted accordingly.)

If the eidolon’s base form is not quadruped or serpentine when it gains this feat, it chooses which base form (quadruped or serpentine) to assume when using this ability. The eidolon cannot choose a base form that is not available to its subtype with this ability. If both base forms are available to the eidolon’s subtype, it can change which base form it assumes when using this ability whenever it gains a new Hit Die. The eidolon can select evolutions that have either base form as a requirement, but any evolutions that require one of the base forms (but not the other) provide no benefit while the eidolon is assuming the shape of its other base form.

When you use the change shape from biped you use the statistics of your new base form. Any evolutions that only apply while in biped form are lost while you are in your other form. The size change does not modify the ability scores, reach, or weapon damage of the eidolon unless they would be reduced.


swoosh wrote:
They don't stack, but they don't need to stack. They're two separate abilities that both trigger off the same effect and happen independently of each other. You hit an enemy and assuming you meet all other conditions, you apply sneak attack and precise strike damage.

Correct, now let's look at that FAQ again.

FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Per the FAQ they are considered to be two separate abilities. This means that when the conditions are met for sneak attack you add two instances of +1d6 damage to the attack, since they're two separate abilities that are triggering off the same effect and are independent of each other.


LordKailas wrote:

What makes you say they don't stack?

Swashbuckler doesn't get sneak attack. The fact that it's an ability that also deals precision damage doesn't make it sneak attack.

I might be missing something but they appear to stack.

They don't say they stack, if they do stack, explain why they stack.


LordKailas wrote:
I disagree, unless you can direct me to rules that define how non-stacking damage is supposed to be handled.

I disagree, unless you can point me to rules that state that extra damage from different sources doesn't stack.

Question to clarify your stance.

If a swashbuckler with rogue levels were to meet the conditions of sneak attack and use precise strike, would the damage from both be applied to the final damage of the attack?

Note that rogue and swash don't stack with each other for the purposes of sneak attack or precise strike.


LordKailas wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
LordKailas wrote:

As I said, this is exactly how bleed damage works.

Bleed wrote:
Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
And bleed has a specific clause for this.
correct, bleed effects have a special clause that they don't stack. It then goes on to describe how non-stacking damage should be handled.

No, it then goes on to explain what happens when multiple bleed effects are on something. It has no relevance to this thread.


LordKailas wrote:

As I said, this is exactly how bleed damage works.

Bleed wrote:
Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

And bleed has a specific clause for this. Nowhere does it state that only the largest sneak attack applies, therefore they all apply.


baggageboy wrote:
Whatever the RAW is it's been understood to stack for years by the vast majority of players and that's how it should be played.

And then the vast majority of players find out they've been wrong all these years through an FAQ!

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