Cleric Class Preview

Monday, April 23, 2018

Clerics are the first spellcasters to get a preview, so you might want to look at the blog about spells before you proceed! We have a lot to say about this class, so let's cut to the chase!

Cleric Features

Clerics' key ability score is Wisdom. This means that they get an ability boost to Wisdom at 1st level, increasing their Wisdom score by 2. They also use this key ability to determine the DC of their spells. Like other things in the Playtest, spells are also affected by your proficiency. Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

At 1st level, clerics get several class features, including their deity and domain, anathema, channel energy, and of course, divine spellcasting (which we'll talk more about in a bit). Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!) Your choice of domain gives you a unique domain power. Powers are a special type of spell that come only from your class, and are cast with Spell Points—think of things from Pathfinder First Edition like domain powers or a wizard's school powers. Powers are stronger than cantrips, but not as strong as your best spells. A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast. She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

A cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements. Though we give some examples of anathemic acts for the various gods and goddesses—like how it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better—we wanted to leave this broad enough that the GM and player can make the final say in how these work in their games. Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

As you go up in level, you'll increase your proficiency rank with divine spells to expert at 12th level, master at 16th level, and legendary at 19th level.

Divine Spellcasting

Of course, the cleric's main feature is her divine spellcasting! At 1st level, you can cast two 1st-level spells each day, which you prepare from the selections on the divine spell list. Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day). At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells. You'll always be able to cast two or three spells of your highest level and three spells of every lower level, plus your cantrips and powers. Like your other spells, your 9th-level spells cap out at three spells, so at 19th level you become legendary in spellcasting instead. So what about your 10th-level spells? We'll talk about those in a future blog!

We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score. Your Wisdom still matters greatly for your spell DC and other things important to clerics, but giving it slightly less weight makes it more practical now for you to play a cleric of Gorum who focuses on Strength and uses spells that don't involve your spell DC or that have decent effects even if your enemy succeeds at its save.

Now, it's not quite true to say those are all the spells you get. Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! Moreover, these spells are heightened to the highest level of spell you cast, so as soon as you hit 3rd level, all those heal or harm spells become 2nd-level spells. This replaces the Pathfinder First Edition cleric's spontaneous healing, which required her to sacrifice her prepared spells to make room for a heal spell. Now, you can use your channel energy to cast these extra heal spells, and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots (in fact, this can be a good use of some of your lower-level slots as you go up in level). Your choice of deity determines which spell you can cast with channel energy. Pharasma lets you cast heal, Rovagug makes you cast harm, and someone like Abadar or Lamashtu lets you choose your path at 1st level.

Cleric Feats

As we've mentioned before, we always wanted Pathfinder Second Edition to provide all classes with a sizeable number of options for customization. The cleric was one of the classes that had the most to gain, since a cleric got a bunch of class features at 1st level, then crickets for the rest of her career. The cleric's new class feats give her all sorts of new flexibility, so let's look at some of those!

At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!

At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains. At 8th level, if you channel positive energy, you could take the Channeled Succor feat so you can cast remove curse, remove disease, remove paralysis, or restoration with your channeled energy spells instead of just heal.

Let's take a look at a category of feats clerics have plenty of: metamagic! You can activate a metamagic feat when you cast a spell. This increases the number of actions required to cast the spell and modifies the spell in some way. At 1st level, for example, you could select Reach Spell to let you add a Somatic Casting action to a spell and increase its range by 30 feet (or to make a touch spell into a ranged touch spell with a 30-foot range). This is a metamagic feat lots of spellcasters can take, but the cleric gets some others that are more specific to her as well. Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature. Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round. And if you use a lot of metamagic, the 20th-level cleric feat Metamagic Channeler is a great choice—it lets you apply a metamagic feat to a harm or heal spell without adding an action to its casting!

So what are your favorite parts of the new cleric? Any builds you're itching to try out? How about concepts you made in Pathfinder First Edition you'd like to take another shot at?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Clerics Kyra Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Mark Seifter wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
I like most of this. I was surprised to see that Channel Energy and Spell Points are not connected. I was expecting them to draw from the same pool. My knee-jerk reaction is "don't like!" because I thought the whole point of Spell Points was to get away from having to track several different resource pools. I'll wait to see how things play out at the table though.
Spell Points are used for abilities unique to their pool and to the class. The spells from channel are essentially more prepared spells per day.
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

Indeed, we're eliminating the tyranny of forced (or pressured at least) conversion of the stuff you wanted into heals by giving you a bunch of free heals.

Thanks. I'm always trying to understand the whys.

Will need to see future class reveals to see if Spell Points feels like a simplification/useful unification or not. (And multi-classing based unveils later that are hinted at by this post's combining multiple pools tidbit.)


Xenocrat wrote:
Quote:
We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score.
In much the way an embezzler makes a company’s finances more straightforward by emptying out their pension investment accounts. I respect the audacity of this phrasing even as I have to be amazed at the underlying contempt for your audience.

Or simply in the way that a system with fewer variables is inherently more straightforward. No one even said better. Just more straightforward... Which is factual.


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Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"


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Questions and concerns:

Will there be a Versatile Channeler feat that let's neutral Clerics channel both Heal and Harm? A cleric of Pharasma in my game is a versatile channeler. This implies that Pharasman Clerics can only heal now? Isn't Pharasma the goddess of natural life and death?

As others have stated, why not have channel spells use spell points? I get that this could lead to a bunch of healing, but you could balance this by limiting the amount of spell points people get.

Turn Undead seems to be WORSE now. It takes a feat AND they have to critically fail a save to be turned? Rebuke Undead is a level 4 feat, but at least it only requires a failed save. Granted, I never used these before (because they were bad and situational) but now they COST player resources to obtain AND they are WORSE.

Prepared casters are still a thing.... Can it at least be like 5e, where you prepare a short list and cast spontaneously from that list?

Metamagic feats add casting actions now... So I guess that means quickened is gone? Since most spells are 2 actions, this means you will have to take up your WHOLE TURN to cast a single metamagic'd spell. Previously, we could move, take a swift action, AND cast a metamagic'd spell.

The Metamagic Channeler feat is the WORST CAPSTONE EVER, even if you get to pick it. We have to wait until level 20 to have Metamagic back the way we had it in PF1, and it only works on channeled energy.

It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats. Not a fan.

As far as stuff I like, the anathema is a cool idea. I like that Clerics can fall for doing things against their deity's desires.

Less spells is okay, as we have rarely had casters run out of spells outside of high levels and the new spell system means that we have a bit more freedom with how we cast spells.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.

Why? This seems another thing to put into the "We're doing shorter Adventure days going forward" especially if Clerics now go Nova on their Spells and just use the new and improved(citation needed) to heal. And with all the healing options that seem to be in the game, a Cleric doesn't need to Channel to heal so I can see far more Harm channels coming.

So Cleric blows all their buffs/damage/control spells and Channels and wants to stop after what 3 rooms? Dungeon Crawl indeed.

On the subject of Channel Energy..., can you at least make it clear what Channel Heal/Harm effects? I keep seeing discussion when I goggle about what Channel does to Outsiders without any feats.

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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Tangent101 wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"

One guy at TSR decided not to buy a thesaurus and our hobby has been plagued by poor word choice for TRADITION ever since.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements

This has me wondering if deities each have their own interpretation on how their alignment is or if P2E is moving towards the "loyalty" system of alignment that was introduced in pathfinder unchained


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

'they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC'

Is that a typo? That means spell save TNs are going to be around 40-ish at level 20? That seams really high...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.
Why?

...do you expect me to have the answer? You'll be sorely disappointed.

Liberty's Edge

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Tangent101 wrote:

They're not free heals. They're Channel Positive Energy. It's what Clerics already had.

You took away several spells per spell level and said "look, you can heal using this mechanic (that Clerics already had), isn't it nifty?"

Oh, and you nerfed it by taking away the ranged aspect. So you can focus a channel positive energy or use one that is effectively two levels lower in power.

Uh...what? Heal, as listed in the spell blog is so many miles better as a power than Channel Energy in PF1 it's not even funny. And can in fact be used at range. Or in an area.

An 11th level PF Cleric can channel for 6d6 averaging 21 to either heal or to harm undead. An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6, averaging 28.5 to both heal allies (and only allies) and harm undead. Or she can use it for 11d8+6 healing via either touch or at range. And can do the touch version three times in a round if she wants (for 33d8+18 healing, or 166.5 healing in a round)...though that is resource intensive, admittedly.

Grand Lodge

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Just wanted to say I am hyped that Clerics have to actually follow some tenets of their Deity. No more clerics of Iomaedae lying whenever it's convenient. this also gives me hope that Paladin will continue to be the good guys.

I know it will be controversial, but I'm thrilled with this design choice.


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Basically all I see is that Clerics have been nerfed for spellcasting and their capability to heal. Before you could have fairly low-Charisma Clerics that were able to keep a party healed up. Now? Now they need a high Charisma for extra "Heal" spells, and sure they can focus them on one person but originally? Originally they had spells AND Channel Positive Energy! They could sacrifice spells while using Channels to heal up the group afterward!

Clerics just massively got nerfed. I do not see what benefits they are getting.


Mark Seifter wrote:
When discussing the spell slots, the spells for high ability score aren't just gone with no replacement; you also get more of your best spells automatically (2 of your best spells at odd levels, 3 at even without counting channel/domains, as opposed to PF1's 1 at odd 2 at even without counting channel/domains). While at very low levels, a heavily optimized character (starting at 20 casting stat and aggressively pushing headband) might be getting 2 bonus spells or her highest level from ability scores, that tends to be impossible to keep up by about level 5.

Bonus spells? Does that mean the Cleric has to learn spells just like the Wizard or am I misinterpreting something?

Liberty's Edge

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Xenocrat wrote:
Quote:
We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score.
In much the way an embezzler makes a company’s finances more straightforward by emptying out their pension investment accounts. I respect the audacity of this phrasing even as I have to be amazed at the underlying contempt for your audience.

You have fewer raw spells, but you've got your free powers that are going to range from slightly below to equal to your highest level spells, usable a total of at least 3+Wis+Cha times per day. I think you'll be fine. This is a great step toward equalizing martials and mages.

Designer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Uh...what? Heal, as listed in the spell blog is so many miles better as a power than Channel Energy in PF1 it's not even funny. And can in fact be used at range. Or in an area.

An 11th level PF Cleric can channel for 6d6 averaging 21 to either heal or to harm undead. An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6, averaging 28.5 to both heal allies (and only allies) and harm undead. Or she can use it for 11d8+6 healing via either touch or at range. And can do the touch version three times in a round if she wants (for 33d8+18 healing, or 166.5 healing in a round)...though that is resource intensive, admittedly.

Heh, if you wind up needing 166.5 healing in a round, you should tell that barbarian to be a bit more careful next time! But I have seen a lot of double-cast heal + scimitar turns with a heal-tank Kyra going up against a really tough foe.

Second Seekers (Roheas)

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JRutterbush wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Quote:
We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score.
In much the way an embezzler makes a company’s finances more straightforward by emptying out their pension investment accounts. I respect the audacity of this phrasing even as I have to be amazed at the underlying contempt for your audience.
You have fewer raw spells, but you've got your free powers that are going to range from slightly below to equal to your highest level spells, usable a total of at least 3+Wis+Cha times per day. I think you'll be fine. This is a great step toward equalizing martials and mages.

I'm not sure I see how?

That's still a lot of stuff that can be tossed out vs the fighters "I move twice and I hit twice" as his most impressive thing.

Paizo Employee Designer

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NielsenE wrote:
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

This is essentially correct. We want the clerics to be able to cast things other than healing spells, which is what we found typically happened with spontaneous healing. We instead shifted to having multiple of your best heal spell instead. Now the pressure is instead on picking your spells at the start of the day, with the flexibility that you can prepare heal spells if you feel you need to. The pressure on preparing heal spells is still significant at low levels, but by the time you get higher-level spells, there's less and less reason to prepare weaker heal spells because utility spells are relatively much more powerful when compared to your channel heals.

Second Seekers (Roheas)

Mark Seifter wrote:


Heh, if you wind up needing 166.5 healing in a round, you should tell that barbarian to be a bit more careful next time! But I have seen a lot of double-cast heal + scimitar turns with a heal-tank Kyra going up against a really tough foe.

Do spells not provoke attacks anymore?


I have mentioned this in another thread, but why is a feat tax associated to 10th level spells? why break the progression of "At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells."
I'm very disappointed with that decision and I hope guys at Paizo are willing to reconsider.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.
Why?
...do you expect me to have the answer? You'll be sorely disappointed.

You yourself?

Nah. Not really. It was more a rhetorical question and something I'm now not looking forward to when the other Spell casters are going to come out.

I know Magic is supposed to be game breaking but a smaller casting pool will make players want to stop sooner. Even if we can stay healed up(debatable), if you start running out of resources the group is probably going to want to stop. So I question how limiting Spells is going to help keep people adventuring and not set up camp. More so when other classes have around the same number of usage(Paladin and Bards for example).

Contributor

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Joe M. wrote:

"Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! "

Simplified to Spell Points only to immediately complicate it again with 3+CHA abilities? I'm curious why.

Lots of great detail here, though! plenty to dig through

I'm not part of the design team, obviously, but in the blog they stated two things that are worth remembering:

1) By design, abilities that use spell points are designed to be better than cantrips, but worse then your highest-level spells.

2) Channel energy's healing spells automatically upgrade to the highest-possible spell level.

Ergo, if channel energy drew from the same pool of point usage as your standard domain powers, you would almost always be tempted to save your points for the more powerful option (using them to cast a spell). By keeping the pools separate, they can keep cleric domain powers in the sweet spot they're aiming for without trying to tempt you away from powerful healing or damage spells.

Designer

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42nfl19 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
When discussing the spell slots, the spells for high ability score aren't just gone with no replacement; you also get more of your best spells automatically (2 of your best spells at odd levels, 3 at even without counting channel/domains, as opposed to PF1's 1 at odd 2 at even without counting channel/domains). While at very low levels, a heavily optimized character (starting at 20 casting stat and aggressively pushing headband) might be getting 2 bonus spells or her highest level from ability scores, that tends to be impossible to keep up by about level 5.
Bonus spells? Does that mean the Cleric has to learn spells just like the Wizard or am I misinterpreting something?

Sorry, the reference to bonus spells was for a PF1 character.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lots of nice stuff here.

Especially happy to see the addition of Anathema. It's always seemed weird that Paladins had to abide by a strict code, but Clerics could pretty much do whatever.

Also nice in providing a motivation to pick different deities for different kinds of characters, instead of just looking to see which deity gave you the best domain powers.

Paizo Employee Designer

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fujisempai wrote:
This has me wondering if deities each have their own interpretation on how their alignment is or if P2E is moving towards the "loyalty" system of alignment that was introduced in pathfinder unchained

You'll find out more about deities and how they work with cleric alignment soon!

Liberty's Edge

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Tangent101 wrote:
Basically all I see is that Clerics have been nerfed for spellcasting and their capability to heal. Before you could have fairly low-Charisma Clerics that were able to keep a party healed up. Now? Now they need a high Charisma for extra "Heal" spells, and sure they can focus them on one person but originally? Originally they had spells AND Channel Positive Energy! They could sacrifice spells while using Channels to heal up the group afterward!

They can still prep them. Yeah, high Cha is now better for Clerics...but that's because what you get out of it is better.

Tangent101 wrote:
Clerics just massively got nerfed. I do not see what benefits they are getting.

We don't know nearly enough about the system to say this, actually. I mean, as compared to PF1 their Save DCs went up fairly precipitously. DC 40+ at 20th level with no investment beyond Wisdom is very nice indeed. Taken in isolation that would actually make them look overpowered.

Now, because we know everyone adds their level on all Saves it's a little less so (though a 20th level person with an Expert Save and 18 stat would still need to roll a 15 to hit DC 40), but if we didn't have that info? Ridiculous looking.

In the same way, because we don't know how most cantrips and the like actually work, or enemies, or a host of other things, saying something is 'nerfed' is pretty premature.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

They're not free heals. They're Channel Positive Energy. It's what Clerics already had.

You took away several spells per spell level and said "look, you can heal using this mechanic (that Clerics already had), isn't it nifty?"

Oh, and you nerfed it by taking away the ranged aspect. So you can focus a channel positive energy or use one that is effectively two levels lower in power.

Uh...what? Heal, as listed in the spell blog is so many miles better as a power than Channel Energy in PF1 it's not even funny. And can in fact be used at range. Or in an area.

An 11th level PF Cleric can channel for 6d6 averaging 21 to either heal or to harm undead. An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6, averaging 28.5 to both heal allies (and only allies) and harm undead. Or she can use it for 11d8+6 healing via either touch or at range. And can do the touch version three times in a round if she wants (for 33d8+18 healing, or 166.5 healing in a round)...though that is resource intensive, admittedly.

Because before they had two options for healing - they could burn a spell to do Cure Wounds, or they could Channel Positive Energy to heal up the entire group. If they were in the middle of combat and had Selective Channel they could even do Channel Positive Energy and block out important enemies while healing up the entire group.

And in all likelihood by 12th level they'd have six 1st level spells, five 2nd, five 3rd, four 4th, four 5th, and two 6th level spells, not including Domain spells. They'd also have on average 4 Channel Positive Energy charges doing 6d6 healing IN ADDITION TO their existing spell list.

Now? Now the same Cleric has three 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells. Let's say they boosted Charisma a little more because now they need to: they now have six Heal Spams. The Cleric just lost out on Channel Energy, are dedicating it to Healing, while losing out on eight spells that could have provided easily as much healing if not more.

Essentially you're going to see everyone using Healing Rituals from now on to heal people up because they can't rely on their Cleric anymore.


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Oof. That hit to low-level spells per day hurts, making it much harder to cast your low-level spells for casual, fun things. (In PF1, casting Unseen Servant, making wine, eventually providing food, that sort of thing.) It's more something I'm concerned for on my arcane casters, but I'm presuming similar setup. My friend and I will be checking that out in playtest. Hmm. Feat for extra low-level spells in exploration mode?

That said! I'm happy to see Lamashtu able to heal. That was something that bugged me. Looking forward to finding out more about domains. Glad to see Cleric getting options now.

My initial impression of the 20th level ability was that it was a pretty sad capstone, saving you an action for just two spells. But, thinking about it, it seems like the real reason it exists is to apply normally single-target metamagic to the three-action AoE casting. Control all the undead around you, give all your allies a damage/attack/movement buff while healing them, etc.


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Another thing that I'm seeing not liking is the reduction in spells per day capped to three, I have always though that four made a good number to cap them with the average of four encounters per day in mind.

I will suggest to change " Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells" to
Every time you gain an even level, you get two more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells

Would that break the balance that are you trying to achieve?

Silver Crusade

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Blog wrote:
Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!)

I like a lot of what I see in this blog, but ~especially~ this bit. A lot of this blog talks healing. which, fine. But I'm more interested in everything else that different styles of cleric will be able to do.


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I've heard every class got nerfed so far... I guess that means no class got nerfed?

In all seriousness, yes, you get fewer spells, but at the same time, you're getting a class feat every other level, which translates to more resources. Heck, for all we know, one of those feats could be extra spells..., which could translate to the same number of spells if you want to put all of your feats into that.

I'd prefer to be able to customize my cleric beyond the spells they memorize, so I appreciate the options of feats instead of 1 more spell per level.


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Joe M. wrote:

"Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! "

Simplified to Spell Points only to immediately complicate it again with 3+CHA abilities? I'm curious why.

Lots of great detail here, though! plenty to dig through

I'm not part of the design team, obviously, but in the blog they stated two things that are worth remembering:

1) By design, abilities that use spell points are designed to be better than cantrips, but worse then your highest-level spells.

2) Channel energy's healing spells automatically upgrade to the highest-possible spell level.

Ergo, if channel energy drew from the same pool of point usage as your standard domain powers, you would almost always be tempted to save your points for the more powerful option (using them to cast a spell). By keeping the pools separate, they can keep cleric domain powers in the sweet spot they're aiming for without trying to tempt you away from powerful healing or damage spells.

Then rebalance the amount of healing gained from Channel Energy, or strengthen Domain Powers, or have Heal Spells cast with Spell Points cost 2 points each? There are other solutions that make more sense and don't nerf a class into the ground.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Heh, if you wind up needing 166.5 healing in a round, you should tell that barbarian to be a bit more careful next time!

Not gonna lie, this has been my life in a PbP game for the last several days. Friggin barbarians charging in and getting shredded to pieces.

Liberty's Edge

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thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.

Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.


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Thoughts:
1. Would like to see some sample domain powers as I feel they'd help us better grasp how the new Cleric works.
2. More confused than ever on how Spell Points work.
3. Can a character cast a Spell by spending the actions over the course of more than one round?
4. I suppose Lamashtu's connection to motherhood is sufficient justification for her granting 'Heal' if the distinction is no longer tied to Channel Energy and thus Alignment.
5. Kyra looks largely unchanged.


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Tangent101 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


Indeed, we're eliminating the tyranny of forced (or pressured at least) conversion of the stuff you wanted into heals by giving you a bunch of free heals.

They're not free heals. They're Channel Positive Energy. It's what Clerics already had.

You took away several spells per spell level and said "look, you can heal using this mechanic (that Clerics already had), isn't it nifty?"

Oh, and you nerfed it by taking away the ranged aspect. So you can focus a channel positive energy or use one that is effectively two levels lower in power.

Ummm... how do you read the healing as nerfed? The Heal spell line is stronger than the old Cure spell line. And you can still use the longer casting time version of Heal when you are Channeling it, so the ranged aspect isn't gone.

This implementation gives you more flexibility - you can move, attack and heal, or cast a quick spell and do a ranged heal, or focus into the area heal.

Remember that in addition to the spells per day there are also cantrips, which can be used forever, and scale to keep up with your level. They're not as strong as your main spells, but they're still pretty decent, and I'm pretty sure there's going to be a variety of effects including utility, not just blasty stuff. You put the stuff that actually matters in your spell slots, and can lean into cantrips for mopping up mooks and taking care of basic utility.


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tivadar27 wrote:

I've heard every class got nerfed so far... I guess that means no class got nerfed?

In all seriousness, yes, you get fewer spells, but at the same time, you're getting a class feat every other level, which translates to more resources. Heck, for all we know, one of those feats could be extra spells...

I'd prefer to be able to customize my cleric beyond the spells they memorize, so I appreciate the options of feats instead of 1 more spell per level.

Unless the feats also have "X number per day", the lower number of spells means you'll burn through them faster and thus rest sooner. That's the problem.

We also have to wait on just what the Feats actually do. How many feats are actually worth taking? Even for the thematic/flavor of the character?

Liberty's Edge

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Crodge wrote:

'they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC'

Is that a typo? That means spell save TNs are going to be around 40-ish at level 20? That seams really high...

Saving throws will also be 1d20 plus your level plus your relevant ability score, with anywhere from -2 to +3 depending on your Proficiency level with them. They're bringing the numbers more in line, so your ability score choices and level are more important for defending against attacks than raw class choice, and you won't have situations where the difference between a Fighter and Rogue's Reflex saves is something like 20 points or whatever (which is especially important given how critical successes and failures work now).


And finally, I also think that Channel Energy should use Spell points, of course the would imply increasing the number of Spell points available.


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JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.

You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6...

You add your level to your casting ability modifier (as pointed out in the Glass Cannon Podcast), so that's actually 5d8+17.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Lots to like, Logan!

I'm especially interested in Turn Undead as a reasonable option for undead-hunting clerics. It works against hordes with a three action heal, and also against single-target baddies with the two-action version. With a Wis-based DC, you actually have a chance one will critically fail.

Silver Crusade

FedoraFerret wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Heh, if you wind up needing 166.5 healing in a round, you should tell that barbarian to be a bit more careful next time!
Not gonna lie, this has been my life in a PbP game for the last several days. Friggin barbarians charging in and getting shredded to pieces.

Yeah, that Oracle of Life I used to play could do ~so many cool things~ ... but just ended up desperately healing the martials to keep them full-attacking. Efficient teamwork, but kinda boring when an AP's major boss battle was like 4 rounds and each round I just healed.

But that's off topic I guess.

Liberty's Edge

eddv wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Quote:
We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score.
In much the way an embezzler makes a company’s finances more straightforward by emptying out their pension investment accounts. I respect the audacity of this phrasing even as I have to be amazed at the underlying contempt for your audience.
You have fewer raw spells, but you've got your free powers that are going to range from slightly below to equal to your highest level spells, usable a total of at least 3+Wis+Cha times per day. I think you'll be fine. This is a great step toward equalizing martials and mages.

I'm not sure I see how?

That's still a lot of stuff that can be tossed out vs the fighters "I move twice and I hit twice" as his most impressive thing.

I said it's a step, not the full solution. I'm waiting for the final product to see how that turns out.


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Glad to see that anathema is being codified. The rest of the blog I have mixed feelings on. More wait and see for me.

Scarab Sages

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At my table, channel was never used to heal. Because it underperformed every time someone tried it. The only character we ever had that used it regularly was a 3pp Channeler. I'm so glad to see that you can use it for something more productive.

I'd expect some cleric feats to give alternative uses for channel energy like the paladin in 1e had, similar to the status cleaning version in the blog post.

Designer

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JRutterbush wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6...
You add your level to your casting ability modifier (as pointed out in the Glass Cannon Podcast), so that's actually 5d8+17.

An ability modifier doesn't include a level in it, though Glass Cannon were level 1, so it likely didn't throw things off very much either way if they did that.


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MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.

No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.

Dark Archive

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Do domains still give spells and an extra spell slot? Nothing in the article leads me to believe that they do, but the feel I'm getting from the article is that clerics are going to have decently fewer spells per day in PF2.
And I'm tentatively in camp "Channel energy doesn't really fix the issue" since it mostly mimics how clerics used channel energy in the past.


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archmagi1 wrote:
I'd expect some cleric feats to give alternative uses for channel energy like the paladin in 1e had, similar to the status cleaning version in the blog post.

I'd actually like to see this too, or Archetypes. A player is running Blossoming Light archetype so I have a front row seat to a Channel build.

What I don't want is needing feats to do things or ones that confuse the heck out of me. Does Channel heal Elementals if you don't have the Channel Elemental feat? Outsiders? Other odd rules creep up over time.

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