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Continuing my obsession with the brawler class and it's archetypes;

Quote:


-Snake Bite Striker-
Snake Feint (Ex): At 3rd level, a snakebite striker who uses a standard action to move can combine that move with a feint. If she is able to feint as a move action (such as from having the Improved Feint feat), she can combine a move action to move with her feint. At 11th level, once per round she can declare her square and one adjacent square as the origin of her attacks until her next turn (allowing her to use one or both squares to determine whether she or allies are flanking an opponent). At 15th level, she counts an additional adjacent square for this purpose. This ability replaces maneuver training gained at 3rd and 7th levels.

Okay so the first part is kinda okay. You can move and Feint but I don't understand the second part when you have something like Improved Feint. Unless it means you can Feint then move?

But it's the level 11 ability that concerns me. There doesn't seem to be an action to do it, you just can. So does this mean you can do this without Feinting? Also, what happens if you move, does the flanking space still stay there?


I question will how PF2 handles monsters with Class levels.

Also while Pazio might not make anything else for PF1, pretty sure 3rd parties are going to stay. How many is unsure but they'll probably see some more prints while PF2 fleshes out.


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By RAW I don't know. Others have put it up there so I suppose that's what happens.

However, in my Mummy's Mask game, I had a snake just as a random enemy. It was hiding under a table outside an estate the team was exploring. The team..., not only left it alone but also gave it some food.

There was a weapon in the building that was going to be VERY useful to killing about half the enemies there so I ruled that the former owner of the weapon was a Ranger/Hunter of some kind and his animal companion was the snake. Smart enough to do a 'snapping' trick to make a sound and smart enough to lead the group to the weapon(Which has a snake decal on it).

The party took the helpful snake with them and actually became the Cleric's familiar


Elanor Benedetto Giuseppe Pietro da Milano (Or Elli)

Elli was just an Alchemist Tiefling born to a Crusading Noble family around the World-wound. She actually wasn't bullied, feared, or anything like that. Sure a few off putting moments but she had a happy upbringing. Well as well as you could near the World-wound.

She actually took off to Numeria not because her family died or she was driven out, she just did it cause as a kid she got a small wind up robot/golem toy from a traveling merchant which lit a fire under her. She was no warrior but what if she could turn the relics buried under Numeria into weapons FOR her and the crusaders? Eventually this desire became more about "Better life through tech" than warfare.

This of course led her to butt heads with the Technic League and lead her to hide out in Scrapwall. When the rest of the party found her.

Sure she's had to struggle a bit with her Demonic nature when she gets really mad but Elli didn't have dead parents, lost love, trauma, etc etc.

She was fun to play.


Okay so I know that having more than one archetype works the following way;

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature."

So if for example 2 archetype change/remove Alchemist bombs, you can't take both.

But how do this work with Skills for example?


Dasrak wrote:
blahpers wrote:


If the character concept matches the vanilla alchemist best, well, there you go.

There are too many archetypes that give up only the poison use ability, so any such vanilla Alchemist would have to value poison use very highly. That already makes the build super-niche, and at that point I'd be very inclined to take a poison-focused archetype that better enhances what would otherwise be an extremely lackluster offering. So yeah, I do see vanilla alchemist as something I just wouldn't use on a PC.

I've used it on NPC's, because they don't have to worry about bleeding money on consumables, but for PC's you need more than just poison use and poison immunity for it to be a good path for you.

My first alchemist I drew him up as a escaped chemist from an evil Empire(homebrew setting). He was a part of weapons development but fled when the Empire field tested his stuff on on combatants.

While I didn't go into the Class or the Story thinking about how he would use all his abilities, he actually could and would use all his stuff.

Poisons in combat? No, but he did threaten a Empire Soldier with a slow painful death due to the fact he could not only Poison the guy but keep him alive DURING the process to drag it out further. Needless to say we got the Info from him.


Aiden2018 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:


That aside, I know people want Ki-less Monks for..., flavor or mechanics reasons but what do you DO as a monk if you don't have your Not magic but totally magic powers?

For me is mostly about flavor. I personally like mystical monks as much as I like mortal/brawler monks. I just don't like the idea of not being able to choose the latter.

As for what you do without mystic powers? ...Well, I would hope you do what comes natural and punch bears in their stupid faces. From what I hear they are still very viable as combatants.

And yet at least from what I saw of the playtest, Monk is still very much a trained, drilled, and schooled Unarmed combatant. Put a different way, I can't flavorly make the Brawler I have now(Washed up, half drunk former tavern bouncer who fights well due to his job and the fact he's seen like 50 adventuring parties throw down in a pub and recalls their tricks) with PF2 Monk. If anything, he'd probably be closer to Fighter and even then that's still not close enough.

Monk to me always says "Path of Dedication, Training, and Self Betterment through Practice/Martial Arts". Removing Ki doesn't change that, especially when the other choices seem to be "Pick your School Stance". Monk doesn't seem to a good pick if you want a more Travern Brawler, Street Fighter, or Boxing Master.

Monks without Ki sounds like Sorcerers without Bloodlines. Or Alchemist without Bombs. Or Rogue without Sneak Attack. And everyone complains about Casters doing too much but no one wants Monk to do magic stuff with Ki.

Sure you're still viable but you're going to need some extra help to get over hurdles and from what I understand, Magic isn't as helpful as it was last edition. Well not as helpful to other people, it seems more damage focus/selfish this go around. Why buff you when Spell X can do your damage better?

I'm just confused by PF2 monk and the community.


Ed Reppert wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

As for me, I've always kinda taken the "override" theory. I mean most characters didnt' start off as Alchemist, Fighter, Wizard, Paladin etc as Kids or teens. But at the same time we didn't start off as Commoner or Expert either, we have a full 20 levels to go.

So when your power awakens(Sorcerer), you're chosen(Paladin), something pokes you(Cleric, Oracle, Summoner), or you've just found your path(Fighter, Alchemist, Brawler, etc etc), it supersedes and overrides whatever you were before.

Perhaps this is one of the flaws of a class-based system. IAC I've never liked "solutions" that don't make any logical sense. Maybe it's the engineer in me.

It is a tad..., odd when it comes to the story aspect of the game.

But the flip side would be we're 19 levels of whatever class we are + 1 level of Commoner/Villager stats.

I mean from what I understand, Ezren the iconic Wizard should be closer to Wizard 4-5 and Expert maybe 2-4 given his flashback in the comic along with other material.


Melkiador wrote:
I wonder if it'd be more interesting to ask, "What class would you never take without using an archetype?"

Alchemist. Shaman. Druid. Brawler.

Honestly I really like base Alchemist as it's the class that made the system click for me. It might be a 'grab bag' of random abilities but it always made sense to me.

You're just a chemist/pharmacist who's learned how to fight, heal, and change your own body with all kinds of mixtures + a bit of your own latent magic.

That and I've played the Atelier games a bit along with Secret of Evemore. Both games with a big focus on Alchemy.

Sadly, PF alchemist will never learn Crush.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like one thing that kind of makes brawler style flexibility less necessary in PF2 is that most combat styles no longer require a massive feat investment to be functional. Like grappling feats are no longer math enhancers that help you successfully grapple, they give you options for things you can do to someone you can grapple. A 15th level fighter with 16 dex and mastery with the longbow should be able to hit a lot of things with arrows without a single archery feat.

And yet I would prefer to decide at the start of a fight "Am I going to be grapple based or given that it can fly, should I take some Archery Feats to help me fight it".

That 15th level Fighter can hit things with a bow yes. But he still has to pick "Do I want to be a better Archer or a better Melee today" is the issue. Yes you could just use Brawler to sneak past the Feat Tax problems but being able to pick up 1-3 feats at the start of a fight was really fun and let you choose how to fight that battle. I mean I like Pummeling Style, but I'd like to only have that for DR enemies. I can do that with PF1 Flexing.

And really something that should have it's own topic. Again I just dislike that Brawler seems to be "Ki-less Monk" when it brings it's own style of play to the table.

That aside, I know people want Ki-less Monks for..., flavor or mechanics reasons but what do you DO as a monk if you don't have your Not magic but totally magic powers?

Cause it seems like asking the Spellcaster for buffs is out or at least not as useful.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
And that also makes sense in fiction: the paladin never had to learn first aid when they had such a renewable well of magic to use.
Paksennarion was a soldier before she became a paladin. She almost certainly learned first aid. Same for Bahzell Bahnakson. I would not be surprised if that were the usual way in which people become paladins. It's one class that seems like starting from scratch would be unusual. Of course, neither of those fictional worlds is Golarion.

The stories rarely match up with the Rules/Community play. I mean any story that has Ezren in it should just feature him solving the problem himself if he's past level 10 or so. Like in the comics he gets trapped in some crypt or tomb without his spellbook. You mean to tell me a Wizard didn't have a backup scroll just for that? Who doesn't carry around 10 Stone Shape scrolls or a wand?

As for me, I've always kinda taken the "override" theory. I mean most characters didnt' start off as Alchemist, Fighter, Wizard, Paladin etc as Kids or teens. But at the same time we didn't start off as Commoner or Expert either, we have a full 20 levels to go.

So when your power awakens(Sorcerer), you're chosen(Paladin), something pokes you(Cleric, Oracle, Summoner), or you've just found your path(Fighter, Alchemist, Brawler, etc etc), it supersedes and overrides whatever you were before.


Kyrone wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
graystone wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
And given that Combat Feats are gone, I don't see how you can have a Class like Brawler anymore.
Floating class feats? Maybe swap 1/day and give it a focus ability to switch the floating feat to another faster? Plus, if you multiclassed you could pull from another classes class feats.
Pretty sure the fighter have a feature that let him choose, at the start of each day, a class feat that he have for the day. At medium level (don't remember , but I think it was around 10-12)
Yup he had in the playtest, it was Combat Flexibility, it was at lvl 9 and 15.

It helps but I can't help but feel it was just a small bone/nod to what they learned with Brawler.

Meanwhile Brawler could slide into some Ranged feats for a fight and not be locked into that for the day.

I suppose 2.0 Combat Flex is good if your spellcasters are Scrying.


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nick1wasd wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
I just picture 2 Anime Monks just countering each other's Ki ability spam while the fight goes on around them.
Monk 1 countering Monk 2's "Wholeness of Body" because they know what pressure points to hit in order to block the appropriate chakras is pretty flavorful.
Very “Fist of the North Star” in feeling... now I wanna make Kenshiro as well as the JoJos... DAMN IT MAN, WHY MUST YOU GIVE ME AWESOME IDEAS?!? But yeah, using Ki to cancel Ki has some very DBZ feels to it as well, Kamehameha beam wars and all that

Because I'm very good at coming up with odd ideas for builds/characters. Like I just found out there's kinda a "Dancer Fighter" archetype for Brawler and I need to make something for that.

As for Jojo..., maybe the first 2 parts. We'll have to see how they do Summoner and see if we can do Stands again.

This is very off topic now so I'll stop.


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Edge93 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
masda_gib wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IMO, it never made sense for "you use your ki to cast dimension door" to not be a spell.

I'm more thinking about an ability that doesn't replicate a spell. Ki allowed extra movement, another attack, ect. Ki strike and such abilities [that add simple numbers] don't jump out as spellcasting: all those untagged, NOT su abilities that ki was used for.

SO for me, if a monk has to cast a spell to get a +1 to strike then a grit user would have to cast a spell to use their abilities: that's really all I'm saying.

I think PF2's definition of spell is very broad. Basicallyyou do stuff to achieve a magical effect, whatever the effect and the stuff is. Especially with occult magic covering all the simply unexplainable effects.

The monks Ki Strike (and Ki Rush too) only has a verbal action, which could be a typical "Huh!" while punching or shouting "Falcon Punch!". And both are tagged as transmutation magic.

If they count as magic, can they be countered Spelled? Does Anti Magic Field gimp Monks now?

I'm pretty sure Ki was Supernatural in PF1, so an AMF stopped their Ki before, didn't it? Or was Ki Extraordinary?

As for Counterspell, that requires having the same spell at hand. So depending on how they are classified in the final rules, either no or yes, but only if you have the Counterspell feat and the same power. Which would be kinda cool honestly.

I just picture 2 Anime Monks just countering each other's Ki ability spam while the fight goes on around them.


I had this question with Unarmed dice progression.


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graystone wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
And given that Combat Feats are gone, I don't see how you can have a Class like Brawler anymore.
Floating class feats? Maybe swap 1/day and give it a focus ability to switch the floating feat to another faster? Plus, if you multiclassed you could pull from another classes class feats.

The multiclass part sounds like it could just ripe for abuse in practice. But they'd(hopefully) figure out how to restrict it a bit. Like Brawler 9/Fighter 1 shouldn't qualify for Certain Strike as a fast example.

But this is more a Monk topic. I just dislike that Brawler is waved off as "Monk without Ki".

Is it the Flurry or the Unarmed damage that makes it so? If it's the latter, there's a lot of archetypes in PF1 that were "Monk without Ki"

Can you even do Unarmed without being a Monk or taking Monk Dedication?


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masda_gib wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
IMO, it never made sense for "you use your ki to cast dimension door" to not be a spell.

I'm more thinking about an ability that doesn't replicate a spell. Ki allowed extra movement, another attack, ect. Ki strike and such abilities [that add simple numbers] don't jump out as spellcasting: all those untagged, NOT su abilities that ki was used for.

SO for me, if a monk has to cast a spell to get a +1 to strike then a grit user would have to cast a spell to use their abilities: that's really all I'm saying.

I think PF2's definition of spell is very broad. Basicallyyou do stuff to achieve a magical effect, whatever the effect and the stuff is. Especially with occult magic covering all the simply unexplainable effects.

The monks Ki Strike (and Ki Rush too) only has a verbal action, which could be a typical "Huh!" while punching or shouting "Falcon Punch!". And both are tagged as transmutation magic.

If they count as magic, can they be countered Spelled? Does Anti Magic Field gimp Monks now?

As for the topic, I see this going 2 ways.

1) Nova. Every Fight. I disliked it in Spheres, I'll probably dislike it here. No reason to think about resources, no reason to think up a plan that isn't "Damage". Death is the best CC and just take 10 minutes to eyeball the room.

2) Nothing. Being so trained over X years to never use their cool stuff till the boss, players might actually with hold using their powers out of habit.


Aiden2018 wrote:

I never heard of the Brawler class. I'm glad they rolled it in with the monk, though. I love the idea of a Pugilist strait out of a Final Fantasy game.

I kinda figured that warrior monks who specialized in weapons would need to be Fighters. I don't mind, though. If I ever get an urge to make a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon character I can just make a Fighter and give it some monk feats later on. Kinda lame that they would need to wear armor to be optimal, though.

I'll give that Know Direction link a look. Thank you!

Unless they changed/came out with new abilities, I don't think they rolled Brawler into anything. Yeah there's always been the idea of "Unarmed combatant that isn't Ki Powered" but Brawler was more than just that.

And given that Combat Feats are gone, I don't see how you can have a Class like Brawler anymore.


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61. God Wizards.

62. God Wizards..., too lazy/busy/something good is on the crystal ball that night, so sends the PCs to deal with whatever problem is around.


zza ni wrote:
for alchemist id say Grenadier (getting precise bombs at 2nd level sign me on!) it was so basic that it was posted twice in the books. since it first showed up as a monster race archtype in the monster codex (i believe it was meant to be hobgoblin only at first). untill now both d20pfsrd and the archive of nethys keep 2 pages of this archtype. one for the monster codex one for the pfs field guide.

Personally I would say it's a perfect archetype that should really be the standard class. If it didn't do away with Brew Potion which by RAW, we can't get back. But some people don't like to craft so it's understandable.

Following this; really any Alchemist Archetype that trades out the Poison abilities is as close to "Default" as you can get. It's a neat thematic nod but in practice Poison is just too meh to really bother using.


Arachnofiend wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
It's kind of interesting how Medium of the Master is under no obligation to actually follow the unarmed strike nudging it gets - you don't lose anything the Champion Medium normally gets by ignoring it, you simply gain a few benefits by using it. You could very easily just use Master's Strike to give yourself pounce in exchange for one of the attacks being a mediocre unarmed strike and then use the rest of your full attack on falchion hits.
I mean, having the monk's unarmed strike damage isn't bad (you punch like a greataxe at level 12), and with handwraps (from the same book) enchanting your punching is no more expensive than enchanting your greataxe.

You misunderstand my meaning; unarmed certainly works for the archetype, but I find it very interesting that it doesn't need to. The fact that it doesn't lock you into being a Medium/Monk supports the argument it belongs in this thread; it's a great choice for any Medium that just wants to focus on the martial bits.

For comparison, I mentioned the Vivisectionist earlier as the standard for mutagen-focused Alchemists; I did not, however, mention the Beastmorph because despite it being an excellent choice and probably the best pair for the Vivisectionist available it locks you into a particular set of skills that isn't appropriate for every Hyde Alchemist (wings are really good, but maybe you don't want to sprout wings). The Vivisectionist doesn't enforce any flavor that isn't already there with the base Alchemist, and it's the same thing with the Medium of the Master.

The flavor is sneak attacks. Maybe I want to go all Hulk on someone and smash their face in. I don't think there's an Alchemist archetype that does that.

Vivisectionist is more Jack the Ripper or as you said, straight up Hyde. Get them flat footed and eviscerate them. But if you don't want to mess around with fishing for that sneak attack damage you're up a creek.

There's also the... odd extracts/spells it gets. Once you hit 7, you also splice in basically Dr Monroe vibes.

Again it's a good archetype, but to say it doesn't enforce any flavor just sounds weird to me. Though I could be the weird one, and people are able to ignore things that I get hang ups about. That or the added damage dice is good enough to just ignore it anyway.


If possible, try to do research on the Wizard itself.

Yes yes, every wizard becomes god at level 13 or so, and your GM has warned you to prepare and this might be deadly, a thing you say he doesn't do often if ever.

But I'm guessing the wizard didn't spring into reality during the last session, they had to have existed at some point in the world.

See what info you can get before heading off to fight them. What Schools do they study, what's their base/hideout/tower like, do they have helpers, monsters, or are they known for summoning armies?

Yes all those questions and more could be faked by the wizard to give false info to their enemies but I feel it might be easier to prepare against what the wizard is KNOWN to do or is said to have DONE than what the Wizard Class CAN do.

Cause otherwise you prepare against the whole spell list and if the GM really wants to end you, hello Timestop+Lantern Archon army.


The Sceaduinar, Sekuer this is CR7? Really? Okay yeah the PCs don't have to fight the damn thing but really?

I'm looking over the stats of this thing and it's a beast at for it's level. Sure by book it says it doesn't use Harm till it's half dead, but that's 90 damage, 45 if they make their save. That's going to flatten most people in my group if they don't save.

Add to it, that one of my damage dealers is Melee(Oh hello Anti Life Shell) and I have a really brutal fight for them, maybe a bit too much.

Thoughts?


I mean there's fun, and then there's "Not being used for half your campaign career".

I like the idea of them but having to be level 12, 16, and then 20 for the boons to kick in is a pretty steep investment. I suppose you can take Deific Obedience at 11 or 13 to get the first boon fast or pick up a really effective Obedience bonus.

Okay yeah it kinda functions as 1 feat for 4 at the end of the day but having to wait till 12 for the rest of it to start being used.

Related question about the feat though; at level 12 you get a couple spells per day. What's the DC/Modifier on those?

Anyway lemme throw something fun into the ring;

Abadar's level 20 Exalted Boon looks actually pretty fun/funny. Scales of Balance lets you retotal your party's HP once per day. Basically you get to add up everyone's HP and divide them up as you deem fit. Could be a clutch save by taking half a mage's HP and giving them to the Front line. Or even two mages if they'er safe enough. You just can't drop someone to 0 HP or put them over their max.

You could probably just hit someone with the Heal spell and do better but I'm sure there's a story about using this ability somewhere.


So how does this work? Or Can this work?

Conductive says it needs an ability that is a Touch Attack. So like Lay on Hands and Bombs.

Gun Chemist however doesn't..., 'have' a touch attack to the bullets it infuses. It just makes touch attacks with the gun, not the actual ability.

Is this legal by RAW or even RAI?


Wait were the tables sold out for PF2 or PF1 games? I'm confused but I never go to cons anyway outside of a little one that's more tablet top games in general(So some RPGs, some card and board, a LOT of War games)


1 God Wizard and 3 carry ons.


Laurgelon wrote:
I love the idea of the lizardmen, but how are you having them stay secret? There aren't exactly a lot of hidden rooms around the wormwood.

How'd the hell I missed this?

COUGH okay so this is a good while late. I ruled that the Wormwood had an extra compartment or two(Possibly to smuggle cargo). These extra small rooms are around the water line or have an opening that can easily get you out there.

The lizardmen are excellent swimmers(Or even boosted by a Shaman/Witch?) and thus can help patrol around the ship at night and sleep during the day. This... isn't a very comfy set up for them, which could lead to more interactions.

I haven't really sat down and looked at the worm wood and gone "THIS is where I would put the compartment" so your mileage may vary.

I went with Lizardmen cause there a good number of them in the Shodden Lands and that's where Harrigan was from. You can swap them out to Saughian or something.


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APL is a starting point anyway, at least to me. This is because of how some enemies are assigned CR. Like someone showed that according to the math, a type of Hag would be totally acceptable to fling at a level 3, 4 man team. Hint, that encounter would NOT go over well.

I'm of the opinion that if you go below 1, you should round it back up to 1.

The ambush sounds okay but you'll have to maybe switch some things up depending on what class he plays. A Sorcerer is going to have a very different run through than say a Fighter or Barbarian.

This is a rough idea. Do the ambush, 4 raiders vs 4 defenders; your son, cleric NPC, and 2 guards. Then split the battle. Have your son and the cleirc take on 2 on one side of the caravan, while the guards take on the other 2.

Don't even roll combat for the other side of the caravan just see how your son is handling combat. If he's breezing through it or the cleric still has plenty of spells, bring the other 2 raiders over after he's won the first fight(Just remove the guards from the board, they got killed off screen or knocked out, depending on how you want to handle death/killing for your son).

If your son's character is wounded or the cleric is low on healing, just have the guards drive off or kill their raiders. Heck if it looks bad for your son's character, have a guard win his fight and come over to help.


*Khan* wrote:
Look at the bottom of the text Chill Metal.

Okay I see the text. Though it says "Unattended"


avr wrote:
3 levels of brawler is usually 1-2 points of average damage on the unarmed strike, occasionally zero benefit. You're actually getting ahead of the game with that +3 damage. Delaying the 3 feats option on martial flexibility is the only direct cost and getting to teleport is worth that IMO.

I'll be honest, level 3 and 7 of Brawler feel REALLY dead unless you're gearing up for Maneuvers. It's a side thing I bust out at times but not the main thing.

Syries wrote:

That's a good workaround.

Looking at this, the fighter brawler archetype makes for a REALLY nice 3 level dip, especially for what you're wanting to do.

I dove into ideas of what I want to do and this seemed like a good work around. I could take a more standard pick of Master of Many Styles but I like this idea more.

Thanks guys. I'm not that big on optimizing but on the other hand if this was a pretty big waste, I wasn't gonna do it.


Syries wrote:

Mobility while allowing a character to full attack is never a bad idea. There is a reason Pounce is considered one of the best attack actions for martial characters, and dimensional dervish is Pounce++

As I said earlier, the easiest and most consistent build would be using Dirty Trick Master if your GM lets you get away with it. But the trip build would work a lot of the time too.

I actually dislike how many people seem to fish for Pounce. My own homebrew rules tend ... well not remove it but allows one to get away with making 1 swing attacks without being completely useless. Like Vital Strike being far easier to pull off but that's more rule/homebrew.

That said, I think I figured out what I'm gonna do. I just wanna throw this past people and see if it's worth it and if I'm falling too far behind with this idea.

So I level as Brawler until level 9. At level 9 I switch to Fighter-Brawler Archetype. This allows me to get 2 feats at level 9, One for Flickering Step and the Bonus Fighter feat is Dimensional Agility. At level 10, I level Fighter again to get Bonus Feat Dimensional Assault. This also gets me Bravery which could help in Carrion Crown and also a bonus to Bullrush, Drag and Reposition(though this isn't that important)

Then at 11 I level Fighter-Brawler one more time. With the standard feat I pick up Dimensional Dervish, and from the Archetype, Close Combatant; giving me +1 on attack and +3 on damage to anything in the Close weapon group. Hello Unarmed.

For a 3 level dip I can bring this idea online at level 11 and have a flat +3 damage to offset the delayed Unarmed dice growth.


*Khan* wrote:


Does your players have Burning hands or similar swarm hitting abilities?
If not, then let them find a wand of burning hands - Perhaps next to the bonefire or at the bride ghouls.

The easy fights are the frogs and the coconut crabs. Just add more frogs and crabs.

The bride ghouls can get some extra hp. Just play them defencesively (they are quite clever). So when the players close up they get full attacks. One can act as bait while the others circle around. Perhaps add a swarm if that is not enough.

The grindylow cave takes time. If the players goes in at high tide, then dont change anything. The Devilfish are nasty at High tide as its Cave is only submerged at High tide. If the players go in at low tide. Then give the Queen and the whale some cannonfodder support - perhaps the Queen can release the lacedons. The Queen has really few hitpoints. By the way chill metal is really funny when the rescuers dive down to reach Sandara. The Ice makes armor and weapons float upward :)
Remember to use the grindylows swift action trip before they attack. If the target is prone, they are easier to hit.

First my Summoner is playing Unchained. But given he took over a character I made with 3rd party Eidolon book and gave him permission to use parts of that, his power level is gonna be maybe off. That covered, let's go.

1) They don't have burning hands but the Sorcerer is pulling up AoE spells anyway since they don't have to worry about splash damage on the boat anymore.

2) They landed not in the marsh as they own the ship themselves. I throw a couple crabs on the beach they landed on with their sailors and that was a bit harrying of them(a crit's a crit regardless of damage dice)

I've also, as a replacement to the Plugg/Scourge fight, made a crab alpha. Fiendish Man Eater Crab, which raises it to roughly a CR4 monster I believe. Toss a feat or trick or something on top of it and it should be a decent threat(And the shell might be worth something).

3) Exta HP on the Ghouls could be good but given they don't have a cleric, also just deadly without the HP. Granted the boost means they can survive a hit from the Samurai.

4) The cave is gonna be the hardest part regardless of what they do. Also I didn't see anything about Chill Metal causing enough ice to float up. That could just be handwaved as DM fluff.


Cuup wrote:

Honestly, not much tweaking is needed to keep Bonewrack tough. Just don't pull any punches and they should still be peeing their pants. Those Mosquito Swarms can be lethal without the right party.

What is the party composition?

Lemme see... and they are level 4 now. We're also playing with some extra rules such as Automatic Bonus Progression and they basically have 3-4 feats each given some other house rules we use. So they are swinging at or above level even with the lack of loot I've given them. I have

Samurai Sword Saint 2/Barbarian 2
Swashbuckler 4
Sorcerer 4 (Stormborn)
Rogue 4
Summoner 4. This is my newest player and I have to see if they mean normal or Unchained.


Right so...

They got the Man's Promise and killed Plugg pretty fast. This was expected, I didn't' give Plugg living 5 days before he got axed. However, because I'm bad at experience and they've kinda twitted their thumbs for a lot of days, I've leveled them up to 4.

So they're going to Bonewrack Isle at level 4. Ideas on how to make it tougher besides just giving "Advanced" to everything?

Related, we're playing Auto Bonus Progression at Level+1. So they actually have some of the stats expected even though they are behind in funds/spending.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Right I have a swashbuckler player now so I should go tell them to redo their entire build or go mulitclass because that's the only way you can play this "class".

I'll kill them off so they can do it right and play Bloodrager.

No wait this is Pathfinder Community. I'll tell them to roll up Wizard next time.


Put a different way; The PCs just killed off an enemy that by Book, should have had a ring of protection and an armlet of natural armor.

Do I give them different items, not count them or just cough up 2k gold somewhere?


Zwordsman wrote:

Gunchemist is strikingly better than multiclassing. At least as far as "alchemist with a gun" goes. may or may not be different if one focused on gun then alchemist.

But gunchemist can do some weird things (making special alch shots more usable), and does some good stat damage (can get int in to damage in various ways). Doesn't get dex to damage as a constant though.

I was gonna say Gun Chemist too. Heck you can even start picking up Some deed feats instead of some combat ones.

Heck talk to your GM if you aren't in Society, see if they'll let you homebrew a Deed replacement to Poison Use and you'd be in a better spot(Because Gun Chemist trades out Resistance and Swift Poisoning but not Poison Use, why?)

Really this kinda looks what I would want in a Gun focused Chemist, just tack on a deed or two and we'd be good to go.

Dasrak wrote:
Legowarrior wrote:
There is the Gunslinger Fire Brand. It goes the opposite way though.
It's also completely unusable, since the author never did the math on the scorched earth class feature. It turns out that the increased chance of misfire it incurs lowers your DPR more than the ability increases it, so the archetype actually gets progressively more unreliable and less powerful as it gains levels. At 20th it's got a 39% chance to misfire on the first attack every round, which is simply dysfunctional.

It's more the Dragon Fire misfire clause than Scorched Earth. Which I question how it works with other sources of damage such as a Shocking gun or even trying to use Vital Strike with it. This can be fixed with a clause/FAQ that reads something like "You only check for misfire on the 2d6 a Dragon Fire Cartridge does, ignoring any extra damage sources". Someone can probably word it better.

But then the bombs also that aren't good given that they're 4 levels behind. And you can't even change up what bombs they are.

It's not a bad idea, shift from high single damage to just AoE fire spam. Against a horde of low level enemies, shooting off a Dragon Fire and then tossing a bomb can make for a cool mental picture. But it needs some homebrewing to get it out of the crater it's in.


Hugo Rune wrote:

I'm perfectly happy to use creatures with save or suck/die abilities against the party.

I expect the party to work as a team and to conduct reconnaissance before blundering ahead. Using the medusa as an example. A medusa's presence in an area would leave many clues (ie lots of randomly placed statues of people and/or creatures in strange poses) and the party should be able to prepare to deal with a medusa. If they blunder in unprepared and add to the medusa's collection then hopefully the players will have learned something and will play their next character more carefully.

Returning to my examples because of this;

Example 1 with the Shrieking Medusa heads, we had no warning. Okay sure the building we're going through seems to have a bunch of monster trophy rooms but we didn't see any signs or warning of the heads being there. All we knew was "Hey Paladin who traded some abilities out to fight undead, you sense undead in the box". Open the box, combat starts and Paladin is removed for 4 turns.

Example 2, I suppose we did just kinda walk into it a bit. While we had no idea or clue it'd be a 2 stage boss fight, we had been fighting Fear effects the entire time so we did pick up a feat to help or a spell. But because we were locked into a central location, we couldn't really leave to shop for better supplies. This was however a game where the DM warned we could die(Though the act of killing someone later in the game with a bad ruling ended up breaking the group anyway so...)


Matthew Downie wrote:

Because they cost 1,650gp each. How many of those scrolls would you have in your level 6 party, if that was when you first met a CR 7 Medusa?

Because they're only useful for one specific rare circumstance and even then they kill the person it's cast on unless they can make a DC 15 Fortitude save, and if you could pass that reliably, you could probably have passed the DC 16 save that got you petrified in the first place.

Because the spell is high level, and isn't on many spell lists, and not everyone can pass a DC 26 Use Magic Device check.

In addition, Shrieking Medusa Heads are CR 4 which was the case in my example. While not as deadly as a full Medusa's Petrify, It's still annoying to deal with. Out of action for 4 turns at most, you get tagged for 2+ turns of it, what do you do? As the Paladin put it "I guess I'll find something else to do?"

I would also like to update another factor for my examples which might not change some opinions but I feel I should have mentioned it. Both examples were played through roll20 or some other online system. So it wasn't people walking away in real face to face life but over screens and text.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Keep in mind that if you are using ABP you get ½ the normal wealthy by level because you don’t need many of the items. I am not familiar with the AP as always write my own adventures, but I imagine you can simply ignore the items that are no longer relevant. If doing so puts the characters below the recommended wealthy add a little non-magical treasure.

I'm not quite sure they ARE at half normal wealth if only because I'm bad at handing out treasure. Or other instances.

For example, in Mummy's they actually passed up a good section of tomb loot out of respect for the dead. And in Shackles, book 1 isn't swimming in good lootable moments till the end of book 1.


So I'm actually not sure how to do this so here goes.

I'm running 2 APs(Mummy's Mask and Skulls&Shackles) and something I haven't really sat down and done is... replacing some items. With items that give only AC, Resistances or Ability scores, I need some ideas for early treasure.

And too often do the first couple books supply a Ring of Protection or Braces of Natural Armor. Should I just switch them around for the same cost or look for more personal items for the group?

Tips?


I'm not entirely sure I get how two of it's abilities work together.

Quote:
Breaker Rush (Ex): At 1st level, a siegebreaker can attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic). This ability replaces the feat gained at 1st level.
Quote:
Breaker Momentum (Ex): At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action. This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.

Okay so, if you bullrush someone you knock them back 5 feet, with further distance based on how well you rolled. So if you knock them back, you can also try to Overrun to keep up with them rather than losing your movement. I believe that's how it's supposed to work right?

But if I do the Two effects together, does that mean I get Two procs of Breaker Rush(1 for the Bullrush, one for the Overrun)?

I mean you don't Overrun the target over every square you bullrush them through right? As that'd lead to some pretty heavy damage depending on how far back you knocked them.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Anguish wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Why should I care what's happening if I'm paralyzed for the entire encounter?
I dunno... maybe because you're one break enchantment away from being full participating and knowing what's been transpiring on the table is useful?
Please, explain to me how I'm supposed to expect a tenth level solution to a problem caused by a sixth level enemy while the party was fourth level. I'll wait.

Because this is actually a decent question, I'm going to expand on the two examples I gave. To help better show what was going on and a little of the group dynamic. After all there is a difference between complaining you got CC'd and getting CC'd when the cure is in someone's pocket.

Expanded Example 1; The group is Brawler, Sorcerer, Druid, Paladin(Who got turned to stone), with an Inquisitor NPC. Paladin was turned to stone thanks to Medusa heads, which is a poison effect something the Paladin isn't immune/resistant towards. I think the only way to cure them is with Stone to Flesh or something even stronger. But I don't think our Sorcerer knows that spell nor does the NPC have a way to cure that. So Paladin was going to be sitting out 4 rounds, and the Brawler might have had a good chance to follow. This group favors RP more than combat but we do like rolling dice and hitting stuff.

Example 2; Now this was a good while ago and I lost contact with them. But the party was Alchemist, Alchemist Swashbuckler, Spiritualist, Cleric or Warpriest, and I want to say Fighter or Slayer. This wasn't the OG team, we had a Paladin but they got killed off by session 2-3(Hello Strange Aeons how you doing?). During the boss battle of book 1, the 2 spell casters we had along with pure melee ended up getting feared and running. Leaving the 2 Alchemists to fight the boss. Looking back, I'm not entirely sure what he did or if was even legal but some bending of the rules I think is allowed for bosses. Whatever happened caused the 3 party members to run for 3 rounds.

By the time we grouped up, Alchemist Swashbuckler was dead, and Alchemist was wounded. And the plan we had descended into hit and run tactics due to the CC the boss was fond of throwing out every other turn. This group was very low on the RP and ran it more "Kick in the door, kill the monsters, take the treasure" way.

I hope this helps a bit.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:


It also encourages players to fight more intelligently and build characters for more than DPR. Hit the party wizard with a few Black tentacle spells and he suddenly cares about Escape Artist. The occasional pit spell and reflex saves become important for everyone. And so on, if it's fair game for the players, of course intelligent NPC's are going to use it.

And yet most the time info is all about pushing a build to do as much damage. You can't afford to pick up Escape Artist, you have feat taxes to worry about.

That said, the group in Example one tends to home brew the feat system a bit with stuff like the Feat Tax rule set that's floating around and allowing some feats to grow, letting you get the next level of a feat automatically when you met the requirements. And it's something I tend to do in my own games. Personally I think you should be allowed 3-4 feats you want and not what your build demands. But this is a different argument.

Besides picking up the required Cloak of Resistance(Or passively getting it with Automatic Bonus Progression), most people don't build for defense or resisting CC. After all, Death is the best CC.


I've seen this happen a few times in my games. Someone gets slapped with a really bad roll(or good/high roll) and they're left with no choice but to sit out the rest of combat. Or massively disrupts the plan/flow that was going on.

As 2 examples, I've seen a player basically quit the fight because they got turned to stone for 4 turns. Given most Pathfinder fights last about 4-6 turns anyway it seems, this meant he'd be out of most if not the entire combat. And we didn't have any way of curing him during the fight.

In my other example, I've been in a group that came up with a pretty good plan on how to kill the boss and the resulting demon we were sure was going to show up after we killed him. Phase one went pretty well, till more than half the team failed a Fear save and had to run away through 2 rooms, leaving me and one other character(Bob) to fight for 3-4 rounds. This resulted in Bob dying in a rear guard action to let me escape but you could tell the rest of the fight he and the others were kinda checked out of it.

It's weird isn't it? As players we seem to like Crowd Control/disables/"Save or suck" when used against enemies but the moment we end up getting tripped/disarmed/stoned/feared/controlled ourselves it's a massive pain to the point it can break encounters if not games depending on how bad they are.

I don't know, I suppose I'm looking for a discussion about how people handle it from both Player and GM sides. Myself I privately roll the effect and question and usually limit it to it's medium length(1d4 turns is closer to 1d2 turns without telling them). And no I don't worry about my players finding out, I only have one player that visits here.

SO what do others think/handle this? Are these examples bad players or have a point? Poorly handled or flaw in the system/expectations of the game?


Cavall wrote:

The DC for any bluff to make divine magic into arcane would vastly outnumber the DC 10 + x2 the spell this archetype gives.

And the other ability is spontaneous application of 2 meta magic feats without increasing spell casting times.

This is for a trade in on your choice of 2 domain powers? So you can keep your fav and trade in the other? I would say these are very much the equivalent and more of most domain powers.

You could even pick your fav subdomain by spells given and if the domain powers suck... who cares? So in a way it's even better.

This is not a bad archetype. Nor is even close to the worst.

We just have to disagree then like others in the topic have. It's good at ONE thing(Hiding yourself) and given you can do that with Skills and some items, you have to REALLY need to hide yourself.

Basically it's a bad archetype unless you're in Rahadoum and again, you can probably deal without having it.

Oh and this is more a rules question than anything. You said the archetype can throw on 2 metamagic feats without increasing spell casting times. Don't all Prepared spell-casters not increase spell casting time by default with Metamagic?


Do you mean best or you mean our Personal Favorites? Cause I'm gonna list some that probably aren't the best but I had a lot of fun playing/coming up with ideas.

Preservationist (Alchemist, Ultimate Magic) - Cause you really wanted to play Pokemon. You get to add Summoning to your kit at the cost of Poison abilities(Which let's be fair, we ALL trade out if possible). What's more is that you might be able to combine the Summons with Infusion and Preservation Flasks. Go into battle and have each person drink one for your own guard/flanker/buddy.

The cons are well it's Summoning so GMs might stop that and it's Nature Ally, not Summon Monster though you CAN get a feat to let you pick it up. Still, dumb idea is to Summon a Fire Elemental to tie up enemies while you carpet bomb them with FIRE Bombs. What friendly fire?

Wild Child (Brawler, Advanced Class Guide) - Cause you want to punch something your pet is holding down. This greatly changes how Brawler plays, removing a lot or all of your bonus feats along with Close Weapon Mastery. You get however, an animal Companion at Druid Progression(Your brawler level counts as Druid), and Hunter Tricks from the Skirmisher Archetype for Rangers.

The Hunter Tricks vary in use but can help out though you can't use any Ranged ones. But with a pet buddy, you can build them with Teamwork feats and then Flex into those as you see fit. And Your pet also gets tricks for free to use Maneuvers. Set up right you might be able to get a Dirty Trick loop set up and just lock down one big target between the two of you.


Cavall wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Personally I think Sword Saint can be fixed if a GM looks into letting Mithral Current from Path of War in. Or just bolting some things onto it from that Discipline.

Yeah the numbers are bad on Sword Saint but it suffers from the problem a handful of Archetypes, mainly ranged I believe, try to fill. "One Shot One Kill". It's one reason I think Sword saint gets a lot of hate besides it's own numbers, the fact you have to swing 4+ times or you're playing the game wrong. Hence Pounce on everything.

Personally a redo on Sword Saint should up the damage on the focus strike or add more riders to the blow(Like making the target vulnerable to your swing or vs Touch.)

-------------

Something I really wouldn't how to redo is Hidden Priest archetype for Clerics. Cause.., wow this seems designed for NPCs(OI Paizo, Pathfinder 2, start tagging stuff as NPC only or focused holy zen...)

So you lose out on one Domain power and one of your level 8 one as well. What do you get for this trade off?

Level 1 - You bluff your spells as something else with a Skill check. Oh and you get bonuses to secret Religious messages.

Level 8 - You can apply Silent Spell and Still Spell to magic you use. Once per day and again per 4 levels past 8(so 4 times total). You have to use both if you use this ability and while it doesn't increase the spell level, if the modded spell would actually BE above your highest spell level, it doesn't work.

So you give up 2 domain powers, for the ability to disguise your spell casting, and then get 2 metamagics that are kinda okay but also kinda meh with the ruling it has to be 2 levels below your highest spell level.

It's not horrible but I don't see the use of it outside of NPCs and maybe really cloak and dagger games. And even then you can probably draw up something else as a PC.

Hidden priest is made for a setting in Golarion where all religion is banned outright.

In such a setting, it's a powerful archetype. In every other, it isn't...

Even with Context, enough Bluff or Diplomacy can probably get you out of a jam anyway. And I did mention Cloak and Dagger, have to be super sneaky, not wanting to show yourself for what you are.

I just maintain that you can probably roll something else, even within Cleric, and still be fine if you build right.


Personally I think Sword Saint can be fixed if a GM looks into letting Mithral Current from Path of War in. Or just bolting some things onto it from that Discipline.

Yeah the numbers are bad on Sword Saint but it suffers from the problem a handful of Archetypes, mainly ranged I believe, try to fill. "One Shot One Kill". It's one reason I think Sword saint gets a lot of hate besides it's own numbers, the fact you have to swing 4+ times or you're playing the game wrong. Hence Pounce on everything.

Personally a redo on Sword Saint should up the damage on the focus strike or add more riders to the blow(Like making the target vulnerable to your swing or vs Touch.)

-------------

Something I really wouldn't how to redo is Hidden Priest archetype for Clerics. Cause.., wow this seems designed for NPCs(OI Paizo, Pathfinder 2, start tagging stuff as NPC only or focused holy zen...)

So you lose out on one Domain power and one of your level 8 one as well. What do you get for this trade off?

Level 1 - You bluff your spells as something else with a Skill check. Oh and you get bonuses to secret Religious messages.

Level 8 - You can apply Silent Spell and Still Spell to magic you use. Once per day and again per 4 levels past 8(so 4 times total). You have to use both if you use this ability and while it doesn't increase the spell level, if the modded spell would actually BE above your highest spell level, it doesn't work.

So you give up 2 domain powers, for the ability to disguise your spell casting, and then get 2 metamagics that are kinda okay but also kinda meh with the ruling it has to be 2 levels below your highest spell level.

It's not horrible but I don't see the use of it outside of NPCs and maybe really cloak and dagger games. And even then you can probably draw up something else as a PC.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
But I am the reverse of OP. After looking it over, Path of War started to click with me and I've gotten to the point of "Click click click, Ding" OH I get it.

It's not that it doesn't click: I read Book of 9 Swords back in the day, I know how it works already.

I'm just taking a really long time to read the rules. The Spheres of Might wiki's layout just made it easier to get through. By contrast Path of War is up on d20pfsrd.com and.....that place needs a cleaner layout. Too distracting.

Sorry I misunderstood. I agree the Path of War section needs to be cleaner.

But Spheres of Power wiki looks like it's own GAME rather than modified rules.

GM Rednal wrote:
@MerlinCross: Actually, Spheres of Might doesn't add or change a whole lot. Most of the system is basically "When you can do a Vital Strike, you can also do this stuff". About the only thing it really adds is a condition. Think of the spheres as really expansive Style feat chains and you're most of the way there. XD You may find this page helpful, too.

Yeah no that's just too confusing still. What is this progression? How's Martial Tradition different from Spheres? Martial Focus what? And none of this sounds like Pathfinder. If I wanted to be a sneaky character what is that? Conscript + Scout + What Tradition?

No I think I'll just stay with Pathfinder Rogue. And then if I want to throw some spice on that, Thrashing Dragon Discipline from Path of War. Cause it says it favors Two Weapon Fighting. Yeah Path of War adds classes but it also seems to give rules for how to use it without the new classes. Spheres I have no idea where to even look for that if it's possible.

I just want to roll up Fighter, with a claymore.

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