Cleric Class Preview

Monday, April 23, 2018

Clerics are the first spellcasters to get a preview, so you might want to look at the blog about spells before you proceed! We have a lot to say about this class, so let's cut to the chase!

Cleric Features

Clerics' key ability score is Wisdom. This means that they get an ability boost to Wisdom at 1st level, increasing their Wisdom score by 2. They also use this key ability to determine the DC of their spells. Like other things in the Playtest, spells are also affected by your proficiency. Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

At 1st level, clerics get several class features, including their deity and domain, anathema, channel energy, and of course, divine spellcasting (which we'll talk more about in a bit). Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!) Your choice of domain gives you a unique domain power. Powers are a special type of spell that come only from your class, and are cast with Spell Points—think of things from Pathfinder First Edition like domain powers or a wizard's school powers. Powers are stronger than cantrips, but not as strong as your best spells. A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast. She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

A cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements. Though we give some examples of anathemic acts for the various gods and goddesses—like how it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better—we wanted to leave this broad enough that the GM and player can make the final say in how these work in their games. Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

As you go up in level, you'll increase your proficiency rank with divine spells to expert at 12th level, master at 16th level, and legendary at 19th level.

Divine Spellcasting

Of course, the cleric's main feature is her divine spellcasting! At 1st level, you can cast two 1st-level spells each day, which you prepare from the selections on the divine spell list. Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day). At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells. You'll always be able to cast two or three spells of your highest level and three spells of every lower level, plus your cantrips and powers. Like your other spells, your 9th-level spells cap out at three spells, so at 19th level you become legendary in spellcasting instead. So what about your 10th-level spells? We'll talk about those in a future blog!

We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score. Your Wisdom still matters greatly for your spell DC and other things important to clerics, but giving it slightly less weight makes it more practical now for you to play a cleric of Gorum who focuses on Strength and uses spells that don't involve your spell DC or that have decent effects even if your enemy succeeds at its save.

Now, it's not quite true to say those are all the spells you get. Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! Moreover, these spells are heightened to the highest level of spell you cast, so as soon as you hit 3rd level, all those heal or harm spells become 2nd-level spells. This replaces the Pathfinder First Edition cleric's spontaneous healing, which required her to sacrifice her prepared spells to make room for a heal spell. Now, you can use your channel energy to cast these extra heal spells, and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots (in fact, this can be a good use of some of your lower-level slots as you go up in level). Your choice of deity determines which spell you can cast with channel energy. Pharasma lets you cast heal, Rovagug makes you cast harm, and someone like Abadar or Lamashtu lets you choose your path at 1st level.

Cleric Feats

As we've mentioned before, we always wanted Pathfinder Second Edition to provide all classes with a sizeable number of options for customization. The cleric was one of the classes that had the most to gain, since a cleric got a bunch of class features at 1st level, then crickets for the rest of her career. The cleric's new class feats give her all sorts of new flexibility, so let's look at some of those!

At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!

At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains. At 8th level, if you channel positive energy, you could take the Channeled Succor feat so you can cast remove curse, remove disease, remove paralysis, or restoration with your channeled energy spells instead of just heal.

Let's take a look at a category of feats clerics have plenty of: metamagic! You can activate a metamagic feat when you cast a spell. This increases the number of actions required to cast the spell and modifies the spell in some way. At 1st level, for example, you could select Reach Spell to let you add a Somatic Casting action to a spell and increase its range by 30 feet (or to make a touch spell into a ranged touch spell with a 30-foot range). This is a metamagic feat lots of spellcasters can take, but the cleric gets some others that are more specific to her as well. Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature. Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round. And if you use a lot of metamagic, the 20th-level cleric feat Metamagic Channeler is a great choice—it lets you apply a metamagic feat to a harm or heal spell without adding an action to its casting!

So what are your favorite parts of the new cleric? Any builds you're itching to try out? How about concepts you made in Pathfinder First Edition you'd like to take another shot at?

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Clerics Kyra Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Mark Seifter wrote:
When discussing the spell slots, the spells for high ability score aren't just gone with no replacement; you also get more of your best spells automatically (2 of your best spells at odd levels, 3 at even without counting channel/domains, as opposed to PF1's 1 at odd 2 at even without counting channel/domains). While at very low levels, a heavily optimized character (starting at 20 casting stat and aggressively pushing headband) might be getting 2 bonus spells or her highest level from ability scores, that tends to be impossible to keep up by about level 5.

All clerics had the Domain Slot, though. Which as 1 more spell for free at every level!

Are domain spells gone? People here seem to want more customization from Cleric spell list, not less.

Designer

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archmagi1 wrote:

At my table, channel was never used to heal. Because it underperformed every time someone tried it. The only character we ever had that used it regularly was a 3pp Channeler. I'm so glad to see that you can use it for something more productive.

I'd expect some cleric feats to give alternative uses for channel energy like the paladin in 1e had, similar to the status cleaning version in the blog post.

Logan listed one of those feats in the blog. Channeled Succor is an incredibly useful feat; it's actually even more amazing than it sounds when you consider that spell level matters for dispelling/removing effects (as per the spells blog), so you have a toolbox full of jacked up removal spells without needing to prepare them ahead of time.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Any of the Devs, can you comment on the # of Spell Points? As listed in the blog post its "Wisdom" not "Wisdom mod". Is raw wisdom score correct?

Grand Lodge

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Channeling & Charisma
I really hope they remove the charisma requirement and move to wisdom (for clerics or main casting stat for others).

Imo it is cleaner to just base it off of wisdom and clears up questions like "what is my channeling DC? Based off of chr or wis?" and simply because MAD characters aren't as fun.

Channeling & Class Feature Uniqueness
Secondly, i think that channeling is pretty cool as is but should have an additional effect to make it feel differently than just an extra couple of cure spells. Class features should always be something that are unique and can't be accomplished by another class (without a lot of work).

I think it would be cool if you got to pick an add-on channel effect from start. I think a choice of a few add on types such as reroll 1s or possibly a scaling version of each deity's specialized channel effect (from Inner Sea Gods) would be sweet. It doesn't have to necessarily be very powerful but make the channel seem cool and something other classes can't do (right out of the box).

Anathema
I think this is a pretty good way to flavor clerics (and paladins) without devolving into a big alignment argument at the table. I'm looking forward to see Gorum clerics roleplaying not backing down from a fight and other flavorful tidbits in action.

Simplified Spell DC
Love it. So much easier for a new player to just have 1 DC.

Need to prepare multiple copies of spells?

Quote:
...and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots...

Oh no. From the text it sounds like we are using normal prepared casting from PF1 and not arcanist/dnd 5ed style casting.

Please switch to 5ed style casting where you prepare the spell and just keep track of how many spells you cast of each level per day. Having old style vancian casting is confusing for new players and isn't fun.


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tivadar27 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.
No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.

Class Feats is another name for Class Abilities. It's just that the class now has them divvied up into smaller segments. Given there are several apparent Class Feat Taxes in effect the Cleric gets probably six to seven Class Feats. If you want to be a decent healer probably half of those will be taken away as well... and probably the rest will be for alternative weapon proficiency or the like.

I'll have to wait for the Playtest to be available but it seriously looks like they nerfed Spellcasters to make Melee types more potent. Hopefully the spell selection will make up for that nerf. But I have a bad feeling about this.

Liberty's Edge

tivadar27 wrote:

I've heard every class got nerfed so far... I guess that means no class got nerfed?

In all seriousness, yes, you get fewer spells, but at the same time, you're getting a class feat every other level, which translates to more resources. Heck, for all we know, one of those feats could be extra spells..., which could translate to the same number of spells if you want to put all of your feats into that.

Or you can just use two feats to gain two more Domains, upping your spell points to 3x Wis. per day, with three different things to do with them. That's an extra 20 spells per day at higher levels, and while they're not as powerful as your most powerful spells at that level, they're still a good approximation for the pile of lower level spells you might have.


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Logan Bonner wrote:
fujisempai wrote:
This has me wondering if deities each have their own interpretation on how their alignment is or if P2E is moving towards the "loyalty" system of alignment that was introduced in pathfinder unchained
You'll find out more about deities and how they work with cleric alignment soon!

I hope the talk about alignment and domains also leads towards more freedom for the Paladin. Good paladin, Evil paladin, and "neutral but not a really a cavalier" paladin. A paladin of a concept/domain if you will.


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MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.

But you're getting additional feats to pay those taxes, so it shouldn't cut into your regular feats. If you want to play exactly the same cleric as in PF1, it will probably have exactly the same level of flexibility as in PF1.


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tivadar27 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.
No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.

If I don't need to spend the feats to play Cleric and will get the abilites anyway, how do you suddenly have options? Your cleric will be the same as my cleric? I'm confused.

If I want to play a cleric the old way, I have to spend a Feat. Oh I'm sorry, A Class Feat. Which is still a resource. I never had them before as a Cleric, because I never needed them before as a Cleric. If I NEED to spend a Feat to do X, it's a Feat tax. That's how it works right, I'm not misusing the term am I?

You have your option. Old Cleric is forced to spend a Resource they never had before..., to get back what they might have already lost.

worldhopper wrote:
But you're getting additional feats to pay those taxes, so it shouldn't cut into your regular feats. If you want to play exactly the same cleric as in PF1, it will probably have exactly the same level of flexibility as in PF1.

Not into my regular feats. Just this new resource they are given us and then turning around and expecting us to rebuy what we had.

Over in the Alchemist thread, I and someone else(Who if you're reading, sorry forgot your name) started comparing this to a Vending Machine. It's nice you get to spend your new shiny Class Feat on what you want. But for others, it feels like we got mugged, the item placed in the Vending machine, and the mugger gives us a Class Feat to get it back.

This isn't just a Cleric thing or even Alchemist. I question how many lost Class Features are going to be in the Vending machine.


Logan Bonner wrote:
fujisempai wrote:
This has me wondering if deities each have their own interpretation on how their alignment is or if P2E is moving towards the "loyalty" system of alignment that was introduced in pathfinder unchained
You'll find out more about deities and how they work with cleric alignment soon!

YES!!!

Best blog since action econ.

Liberty's Edge

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MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.

And as I said repeatedly in the Alchemist thread, it's not a damn tax if they're giving you the money you're using to pay them. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have several times: they're taking away your A, then they're giving 1 money, which you can use to either buy A, B, or C. You are strictly better off than you were before, because if you want A back, just buy it back with the free money they gave you.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
An 11th level PF2 Cleric can do the same for 5d8+6...
You add your level to your casting ability modifier (as pointed out in the Glass Cannon Podcast), so that's actually 5d8+17.
An ability modifier doesn't include a level in it, though Glass Cannon were level 1, so it likely didn't throw things off very much either way if they did that.

They said that the spellcasting ability modifiers used your level, not all ability modifiers. If that's not the case, then I'm a little sadder than I was... but oh well, it's not a big deal.


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On first reading, I thought that Clerics were stuck with 1 domain at level 1, which was disappointing. Since I could foresee little Timmy being pressured into taking Healing as their one domain. But if we’re receiving a Class Feat at 1st Level, and Expanded Domain is available at 1st Level, then it shouldn’t be too much different to recreate my character concepts from PF1. Although I’m certainly hoping that Domain powers are strong enough to warrant locking our stronger Domain power behind a Feat Tax.

I really hope that the Cha + 3 times per day for Channeling is a typing mistake. For 2 reasons.

1. You introduced Resonance and Spell Points to consolidate all of the X/Day Abilities to a smaller list of resource pools to keep track of. Now you’re telling me that my new player’s 1st Level Cleric has 3 Resonance, 3 Spell Points, 5 Uses per Day of Channeling, X many Cantrips, and 2 1st Level spell slots to keep track of?

So Casting Heal uses up a spell slot, but using Channel to cast Heal consumes a Use Per Day, but Using your Healing Domain Power to heal someone just uses up a Spell Point but isn’t Heal like the Spell. But if you want to use that Wand of Heal then it’ll cost you a point of Resonance. Using Cantrips are using spells but they don’t use up a spell slot. But that doesn’t mean that they use any spell points or resonance, or use any Uses per day of Channel Energy.

Please just either add Cha Modifier to Spell Points as well or add Double Cha Modifier to Charisma and allow us to spend those points for Channeling. Or don’t even add the Cha Modifier and just let us choose when to spend our Spell Points on our Domain Power(s) or to Channel.

2. Why is Channeling still handcuffed to Charisma? Why do the Gods grant you more powerful spells for being more Wise, but will only give you more daily Healing if you’re more charismatic? This was my least favorite part of the Class in PF1 because it makes the Class ridiculously MAD and uses a logic that feels shaky at best. Wasn’t Resonance meant to be what discourages us from Dumping Charisma now?
Should we ask that Rogues require decent Intelligence to Sneak Attack more often? Or Fighters have decent Charisma to Power Attack more often? Or Wizards have decent Strength to craft magic items more often?
Then why should the cleric, who already needs decent Wisdom for DCs, Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to stand in Melee, and doesn’t have the Skills to afford dumping Intelligence to need a Decent Charisma so that they can heal people more often?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I love every bit of this to pieces. I quite like the idea of starting with a single domain, then choosing to either expand into more domains or improve upon the ones you already have. It's a great trend I've been seeing that your choose-able options tend to either laterally improve your versatility or vertically improve your specialization. If it turns out that both have worthwhile options, then that has a lot of great potential.

I also like removing bonus spells for high ability modifier. One thing I'm uncertain about, though: are domain spells still a thing? I don't mean the powers from domains that use spell points, but the bonus spells per day for specific spells associated with a domain. I really hope those are a thing, they're one of the most interesting parts of PF1 clerics, and I'd like to see them stay.

I love the bonus pool of heal/harm spells, and that it doesn't require you to sacrifice other, more interesting spells to use it. I love that it's also got the versatility of being single target or burst no baked right in. I also like that whether it does heal or harm is decided based on the ethos of the deity in question rather than as a set of blanket rules. I noticed that Lamashtu lets you choose, and that's an interesting wrinkle!


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Oh yeah ugh, missed the bit about the prepared spells. And this bit from the spells blog:

Spells Blog wrote:
Heightening a spell works much like it did previously, where you prepare a spell in a higher-level slot (or cast it using a higher-level slot if you're a spontaneous caster).

Don't do this to me, haha. We need prepared spellcasters to move to Arcanist spellcasting and for Spontaneous casters to be buffed in other ways. Teaching players new to casters how old-style prepared casting works is such a pain in the tail, and it's never been especially fun to play either.

Liberty's Edge

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Tangent101 wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.
No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.
Class Feats is another name for Class Abilities.

You mean the thing that Clerics didn't actually get?


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MerlinCross wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.
No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.

If I don't need to spend the feats to play Cleric and will get the abilites anyway, how do you suddenly have options? Your cleric will be the same as my cleric? I'm confused.

If I want to play a cleric the old way, I have to spend a Feat. Oh I'm sorry, A Class Feat. Which is still a resource. I never had them before as a Cleric, because I never needed them before as a Cleric. If I NEED to spend a Feat to do X, it's a Feat tax. That's how it works right, I'm not misusing the term am I?

You have your option. Old Cleric is forced to spend a Resource they never had before..., to get back what they might have already lost.

I think its going to take a lot of getting used to PF1 stuff being stripped and tossed out levels. That seems to be happening to all classes. :(

That said, I hope domains get a second look. I liked the abilities you got from them, but it seemed very few and far between updates and additional powers. Maybe with this new feat feat feat design it will seem like you are really powering up each level?


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So it looks like at third level, a cleric will have

Channel Divinity and Domain Powers
Two class feats
3 1st level spells
2 2nd level spells
X number of cantrips

Meanwhile, from the Fighter Preview, it looks they get

Attacks of Opportunity
+1 bonus to attack rolls
2 class feats

That can't be right, can it? My impression was that right now classes gain a class feat on even levels, class features and skill feats on odd levels. But I'd assumed that spellcasting would cut into the resources of a class, but it seems to be given about the same weight as a slightly larger hitdie.

Liberty's Edge

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Tangent101 wrote:
Because before they had two options for healing - they could burn a spell to do Cure Wounds, or they could Channel Positive Energy to heal up the entire group.

You can do all this with heal uses and wind up ahead, I think.

Tangent101 wrote:
If they were in the middle of combat and had Selective Channel they could even do Channel Positive Energy and block out important enemies while healing up the entire group.

We don't know if they can do this in PF2, but I'd be surprised if you can't

Tangent101 wrote:
And in all likelihood by 12th level they'd have six 1st level spells, five 2nd, five 3rd, four 4th, four 5th, and two 6th level spells, not including Domain spells. They'd also have on average 4 Channel Positive Energy charges doing 6d6 healing IN ADDITION TO their existing spell list.

That's 84 average healing for the group total. 3 PF2 heals used for area heals are gonna net 80.5 and almost as much. 4 will net 109.

Tangent101 wrote:
Now? Now the same Cleric has three 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells. Let's say they boosted Charisma a little more because now they need to: they now have six Heal Spams. The Cleric just lost out on Channel Energy, are dedicating it to Healing, while losing out on eight spells that could have provided easily as much healing if not more.

Let's examine this. In PF1, using all his spare spells for healing a 12th level Cleric has the following healing:

3 CLW = 28.5
2 CMW = 38
2 CSW = 51
1 CCW = 30
1 CLW Mass = 16.5 area.

So that's 147.5 healing single target and, with the 84 above from Channel, 100.5 area healing.

The PF2 Cleric will use her 6 free heals, and using her extra 6th level spell above the PF1 Cleric on heal, winds up with 109 area healing (4 area versions) and 166.5 single target healing (three single target versions).

That's just flatly more healing. And with vastly better action economy (so it's actually good in combat). Now, the PF1 Heal spell (if actually used twice) ups the PF1 Cleric way above on single target healing at this particular level, but that's more to do with Heal being overpowered in PF1 than Cleric having been powered down in PF2. And is getting away from the Cure Spell + Channel Energy comparison (and if we're gonna do that, the PF2 Cleric catches up on per day healing at 13th level with Regenerate, which is 150 HP per casting...so the PF1 Cleric is better at healing on single targets for maybe two whole levels).

Tangent101 wrote:
Essentially you're going to see everyone using Healing Rituals from now on to heal people up because they can't rely on their Cleric anymore.

Not really. As my math above indicates, the Cleric remains very competitive in healing.


Mark Seifter wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

At my table, channel was never used to heal. Because it underperformed every time someone tried it. The only character we ever had that used it regularly was a 3pp Channeler. I'm so glad to see that you can use it for something more productive.

I'd expect some cleric feats to give alternative uses for channel energy like the paladin in 1e had, similar to the status cleaning version in the blog post.

Logan listed one of those feats in the blog. Channeled Succor is an incredibly useful feat; it's actually even more amazing than it sounds when you consider that spell level matters for dispelling/removing effects (as per the spells blog), so you have a toolbox full of jacked up removal spells without needing to prepare them ahead of time.

Speaking of making channels better/flexible, will Variant Channeling be a built in default thing with the talk of Domains and stuff? Maybe a Class feat to modify your channels to access these boons/blights?

Also I am not sure if I missed it but has channeled healing been changed so that it targets allies OR enemies only? It sometimes feels like you have to get the Selective Channeling feat.


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JRutterbush wrote:
And as I said repeatedly in the Alchemist thread, it's not a damn tax if they're giving you the money you're using to pay them. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have several times: they're taking away your A, then they're giving 1 money, which you can use to either buy A, B, or C. You are strictly better off than you were before, because if you want A back, just buy it back with the free money they gave you.

We have different opinions on "Feat Tax" then.

What's the point of Offering A back to me even if it's free? It shouldn't have been taken away anyway. It feels very much like we are being allowed to "Buy Into" Archetypes.

So you have fun with B and C, those are great. I had my A taken away and shoved back into my hands with a confused "WTF" look on my face.

Actually now that I think about it, how the heck will Archetypes work if we just BUY what we want? Archetype removes X? Well I'll just buy it back. Balance nightmare anyone?


QuidEst wrote:

Oof. That hit to low-level spells per day hurts, making it much harder to cast your low-level spells for casual, fun things. (In PF1, casting Unseen Servant, making wine, eventually providing food, that sort of thing.) It's more something I'm concerned for on my arcane casters, but I'm presuming similar setup. My friend and I will be checking that out in playtest. Hmm. Feat for extra low-level spells in exploration mode?

Well, it is quite possible that kinda stuff might be cantrips, at least Unseen Servant

Liberty's Edge

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Quadratic W wrote:

So it looks like at third level, a cleric will have

Channel Divinity and Domain Powers
Two class feats
3 1st level spells
2 2nd level spells
X number of cantrips

Meanwhile, from the Fighter Preview, it looks they get

Attacks of Opportunity
+1 bonus to attack rolls
2 class feats

That can't be right, can it? My impression was that right now classes gain a class feat on even levels, class features and skill feats on odd levels. But I'd assumed that spellcasting would cut into the resources of a class, but it seems to be given about the same weight as a slightly larger hitdie.

As I recall, Fighters get a Class Feat every level, not every even level. They've also got +6 hit points, which isn't huge, but it's not nothing either.


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ElSilverWind wrote:

2. Why is Channeling still handcuffed to Charisma? Why do the Gods grant you more powerful spells for being more Wise, but will only give you more daily Healing if you’re more charismatic? This was my least favorite part of the Class in PF1 because it makes the Class ridiculously MAD and uses a logic that feels shaky at best. Wasn’t Resonance...

Ridiculously MAD? The Monk would like to have a word with you... I am actually thrilled by this. I much prefer a MAD design across the board. CHA to channel makes even more sense now that resonance teams up with UMD.


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MerlinCross wrote:

Not into my regular feats. Just this new resource they are given us and then turning around and expecting us to rebuy what we had.

Over in the Alchemist thread, I and someone else(Who if you're reading, sorry forgot your name) started comparing this to a Vending Machine. It's nice you get to spend your new shiny Class Feat on what you want. But for others, it feels like we got mugged, the item placed in the Vending machine, and the mugger gives us a Class Feat to get it back.

Wait, what did you expect? Did you think you were going to get everything the old Cleric had and then some? The new options are to give people more flexibility, not to straight buff an already very powerful class.


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Feel that cleric didn't have many class features before... Now they have the same amount but split among 20 levels?

Need 1 class feat spent per domain power (1 free), so that's 3 to break even with 1E ones that got 4 abilities total from them, + spells.

How many class feats do you get again? 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18 and Capstone?


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MerlinCross wrote:

If I don't need to spend the feats to play Cleric and will get the abilites anyway, how do you suddenly have options? Your cleric will be the same as my cleric? I'm confused.

If I want to play a cleric the old way, I have to spend a Feat. Oh I'm sorry, A Class Feat. Which is still a resource. I never had them before as a Cleric, because I never needed them before as a Cleric. If I NEED to spend a Feat to do X, it's a Feat tax. That's how it works right, I'm not misusing the term am I?

You have your option. Old Cleric is forced to spend a Resource they never had before..., to get back what they might have already lost.

Yes, you are, in fact, misusing the term. A feat tax is a feat you have to take, though that's not useful, to reach some desired end state, or a feat you have to take to "keep up" with the rest of your class.

You've stated that if you want to play the *old cleric*, you'd potentially have to take extra feats, each of which, in this circumstance, would give you an extra spell, so they're useful, and they're not required, as someone else might be fine with fewer spells, but having other abilities that may be equally as powerful.

Once again, we don't know if this will even be possible, but your view that these are feat taxes is not correct. If you want to play a traditional cleric, go ahead, use your feats for that, you're not losing anything. You seem to want to both have the full range of spells, and then *add additional powers* for clerics, which would essentially be making them *more* powerful than traditional clerics in Pathfinder 1e.

Liberty's Edge

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Planpanther wrote:
ElSilverWind wrote:

2. Why is Channeling still handcuffed to Charisma? Why do the Gods grant you more powerful spells for being more Wise, but will only give you more daily Healing if you’re more charismatic? This was my least favorite part of the Class in PF1 because it makes the Class ridiculously MAD and uses a logic that feels shaky at best. Wasn’t Resonance...

Ridiculously MAD? The Monk would like to have a word with you... I am actually thrilled by this. I much prefer a MAD design across the board. CHA to channel makes even more sense now that resonance teams up with UMD.

They've also said that Ability Ups from leveling will follow the Starfinder format, which means you raise 4 stats every time you raise them. That really decreases the hurt of being MAD quite a bit.


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worldhopper wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Not into my regular feats. Just this new resource they are given us and then turning around and expecting us to rebuy what we had.

Over in the Alchemist thread, I and someone else(Who if you're reading, sorry forgot your name) started comparing this to a Vending Machine. It's nice you get to spend your new shiny Class Feat on what you want. But for others, it feels like we got mugged, the item placed in the Vending machine, and the mugger gives us a Class Feat to get it back.

Wait, what did you expect? Did you think you were going to get everything the old Cleric had and then some? The new options are to give people more flexibility, not to straight buff an already very powerful class.

I don't expect to get mugged and have my thing sold back to me. And this isn't just a Cleric thing; this is my thought process across ALL the classes.

Class loses X. Able to buy it back with Class Feat. What's the flipping point, I had X anyway. If I wanted X gone, I would have taken an Archetype. And because I was busy editing the last post, how does this Class Feat buying power work with Archetypes if we can just BUY what we lost for the Archetype! What if some Class Feats are also locked by Race?

We just don't know and I won't feel better until a Class Feat blog comes out. And even then I'm a bit miffed.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Really excited about the updates to clerics, 9th level casting and the interaction of clerics, deities and channelling.

Interesting that channel energy pool is separate from spell points.

And odd that channel energy pool is built off Charisma still, since I would suspect Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards won’t need to keep up a secondary ability for any of their class features.

But then Clerics have always been consistent powerhouses in the game, between buffing spells, decent weapon/armor proficiencies, medium HD, and self-healing ability it might be necessary to spread the cleric a little thinner. That’s what a playtest is for after all.


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Hmmm very interesting.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't anxious about how many spells we're losing. That's like....not a lot of spells, and I really don't want to be resting every 5 seconds. I get that cantrips and domain powers might make up for this, and I love that we're getting free heals to help free up our spell slots, but it still feels a little...sparse.

This is almost off-topic, but I agree with other posters that I really hoped they would go more in the direction of the Arcanist/5e and get rid of the traditional Vancian casting. It is just SO INCREDIBLY counterintuitive to prepare each individual spell. I really wish we could just prepare a certain number of spells per level and get a certain number per day. :/


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Gorignak227 wrote:

Channeling & Charisma

I really hope they remove the charisma requirement and move to wisdom (for clerics or main casting stat for others).

Imo it is cleaner to just base it off of wisdom and clears up questions like "what is my channeling DC? Based off of chr or wis?" and simply because MAD characters aren't as fun.

Channeling & Class Feature Uniqueness
Secondly, i think that channeling is pretty cool as is but should have an additional effect to make it feel differently than just an extra couple of cure spells. Class features should always be something that are unique and can't be accomplished by another class (without a lot of work).

I think it would be cool if you got to pick an add-on channel effect from start. I think a choice of a few add on types such as reroll 1s or possibly a scaling version of each deity's specialized channel effect (from Inner Sea Gods) would be sweet. It doesn't have to necessarily be very powerful but make the channel seem cool and something other classes can't do (right out of the box).

Anathema
I think this is a pretty good way to flavor clerics (and paladins) without devolving into a big alignment argument at the table. I'm looking forward to see Gorum clerics roleplaying not backing down from a fight and other flavorful tidbits in action.

Simplified Spell DC
Love it. So much easier for a new player to just have 1 DC.

Need to prepare multiple copies of spells?

Quote:
...and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots...

Oh no. From the text it sounds like we are using normal prepared casting from PF1 and not arcanist/dnd 5ed style casting.

Please switch to 5ed style casting where you prepare the spell and just keep track of how many spells you cast of each level per day. Having old style vancian casting is confusing for new players and isn't fun.

I'm with you on everything except making Clerics purely Wisdom SAD. Spellcasters needing to only focus on 1 stat while other classes need [attack+damage stat], [armor stat because they're combatants], [HP stat because they're combatants], and [misc stat so they're not boring beatsticks/stat to shore up their poor save] was a significant component to the class disparity in 1E.

It also made it so that those core classes were stronger than some of the later 9th level casters like the Psychic, Arcanist, and Shaman because those later casters actually had abilities based off of multiple stats.

Personally, I think that all 9th level spellcasters should have 1 primary spellcasting stat and 1 other important stat at a minimum. A dual ability focus is a lot easier to balance around when compared to the other classes.


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JRutterbush wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.
No you don't... You're using class feats, which you never got before as a Cleric. You have not been taxed any general feats.
Class Feats is another name for Class Abilities.
You mean the thing that Clerics didn't actually get?

The thing they got which was incorporated into Domains and other abilities.

Don't forget: you get fewer generalized Feats as a result while trying to build your class using Class Feats. Skill Feats are basically skill points from the sound of things. And by renaming everything Feats they can handwave stuff and make it seem like you're getting stuff when you're getting less, much like a container of ice cream with a higher bottom so that instead of a half gallon of ice cream you get 1.5 quarts. Or they whip it so there's air in it so it's the same-size container but trust me by weight you're getting less.


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MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
And as I said repeatedly in the Alchemist thread, it's not a damn tax if they're giving you the money you're using to pay them. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have several times: they're taking away your A, then they're giving 1 money, which you can use to either buy A, B, or C. You are strictly better off than you were before, because if you want A back, just buy it back with the free money they gave you.

We have different opinions on "Feat Tax" then.

What's the point of Offering A back to me even if it's free? It shouldn't have been taken away anyway. It feels very much like we are being allowed to "Buy Into" Archetypes.

So you have fun with B and C, those are great. I had my A taken away and shoved back into my hands with a confused "WTF" look on my face.

Actually now that I think about it, how the heck will Archetypes work if we just BUY what we want? Archetype removes X? Well I'll just buy it back. Balance nightmare anyone?

From what we've seen so far what Archetypes does is add more feats that you can buy


The only thing I dislike is your primary Domain (the one you get at first level) not scaling automatically. It should, with Class Feats needed for the extra Domains.

Other than that, it's nice. I like the changes to channeling, I don't mind there still being normal PF1 prepared casting, nor the change to the number of spells. Metamagic Feats sound nice.

The only eh thing is the Spell Proficiency. It scales pretty weirdly and unless it unlocks access to powerful metamagic feats, +1 to your spell DCs is a drop in the bucket compared to what you're getting from Level.


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MerlinCross wrote:
worldhopper wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Not into my regular feats. Just this new resource they are given us and then turning around and expecting us to rebuy what we had.

Over in the Alchemist thread, I and someone else(Who if you're reading, sorry forgot your name) started comparing this to a Vending Machine. It's nice you get to spend your new shiny Class Feat on what you want. But for others, it feels like we got mugged, the item placed in the Vending machine, and the mugger gives us a Class Feat to get it back.

Wait, what did you expect? Did you think you were going to get everything the old Cleric had and then some? The new options are to give people more flexibility, not to straight buff an already very powerful class.

I don't expect to get mugged and have my thing sold back to me. And this isn't just a Cleric thing; this is my thought process across ALL the classes.

Class loses X. Able to buy it back with Class Feat. What's the flipping point, I had X anyway. If I wanted X gone, I would have taken an Archetype. And because I was busy editing the last post, how does this Class Feat buying power work with Archetypes if we can just BUY what we lost for the Archetype! What if some Class Feats are also locked by Race?

We just don't know and I won't feel better until a Class Feat blog comes out. And even then I'm a bit miffed.

The point is not everyone wants to continue to play 1e, except cramming it into 2e. For those people, we're giving back X to purchase Y. In other words, more options. It's not being mugged, that's just rhetorical flourish on your part. You can still have X, just for some who don't want it, we can have Y instead.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier!

Battle Priest Cries in Orc


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MerlinCross wrote:
I find it hard to believe "Options" are better when the math will eventually make everyone build the same bloody characters anyway.

This seems to be one of the things that Paizo is specifically trying to reduce in the 2nd edition. And I certainly don't see it as a given for any RPG.

Sure, there will always be 1 set of options that is in some way the "most optimal". But I think that Paizo should strive to make all of the available options good enough that the difference between the most optimal builds and everything else is as small as possible.

Especially if most things allow you to specialize and tradeoff, so even if one build is the best at one thing, it won't be the best at everything.


MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
And as I said repeatedly in the Alchemist thread, it's not a damn tax if they're giving you the money you're using to pay them. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have several times: they're taking away your A, then they're giving 1 money, which you can use to either buy A, B, or C. You are strictly better off than you were before, because if you want A back, just buy it back with the free money they gave you.

We have different opinions on "Feat Tax" then.

What's the point of Offering A back to me even if it's free? It shouldn't have been taken away anyway. It feels very much like we are being allowed to "Buy Into" Archetypes.

So you have fun with B and C, those are great. I had my A taken away and shoved back into my hands with a confused "WTF" look on my face.

Actually now that I think about it, how the heck will Archetypes work if we just BUY what we want? Archetype removes X? Well I'll just buy it back. Balance nightmare anyone?

It costs three feats to get Old Cleric back. Second domain, plus two advanced domain feats. You get nine total.

Archetypes don’t trade anything. They give you more class feat options.

Scarab Sages

The new Command Undead feat for clerics sounds delicious. Definitely something to experiment with.

Interesting that Pharasma is only heal now. I remember her being a chief neutral deity. *shrugs*

I’m a little on the fence about anathemas. While it’s a really good rp flavor, I really hope that they make sense in the great scheme of things as I do see this being abused by both PCs and GMs (ESPECIALLY GMs).

The other concern that ties in with another, is how will it work with clerics who don’t worship gods but an idea or principle? Or is that not allowed anymore? That would be disappointing...

Liberty's Edge

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QuidEst wrote:
Archetypes don’t trade anything. They give you more class feat options.

We know this is true for some Archetypes, we don't know for a fact that it's universal.


I really like the idea of adding domains by spending feats. I was hoping the domains might have more than two powers to them, more like oracle mysteries, but I guess that is not the case.

I'm very anxious to find out how they've altered the gods and if they are still compatible with exiting lore. Can we still easily use the hundreds of non-core deities that have been introduced? I really don't want to have to learn a new chart of domains/limitations/whatever for the Empyreal Lords, but I want access to them ASAP.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


And odd that channel energy pool is built off Charisma still, since I would suspect Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards won’t need to keep up a secondary ability for any of their class features.

I am hoping this is incorrect. I could see making bloodline abilities run of CON mod as a pool. Maybe Bards have an INT mod pool for class powers. WIZ im not sure. Either way I want everybody MAD!

Verdant Wheel

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I feel sad we couldn´t see the Cleric´s reaction. But i am positive about everything else.


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Vigmortis wrote:

The new Command Undead feat for clerics sounds delicious. Definitely something to experiment with.

Interesting that Pharasma is only heal now. I remember her being a chief neutral deity. *shrugs*

I’m a little on the fence about anathemas. While it’s a really good rp flavor, I really hope that they make sense in the great scheme of things as I do see this being abused by both PCs and GMs (ESPECIALLY GMs).

The other concern that ties in with another, is how will it work with clerics who don’t worship gods but an idea or principle? Or is that not allowed anymore? That would be disappointing...

I was actually more surprised by Lamashtu letting you choose, honestly. I'm with you with Anathemas, but if they're like Paladin Codes as we have them now, it'll probably be fine.

As for godless Clerics....I wouldn't be surprised if they're gone. But on the other hand, letting them remain would be really easy, so I can see it going either way.


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From the sounds of things, you get one Domain. It has one ability. At a higher level you can spend a Class Feat to unlock the second Domain ability. You can also spend a Class Feat to get a second Domain... and have to send yet another Class Feat to unlock its second Domain ability. For all we know, you might also have to spend a Class Feat to unlock the Domain Spell and a sixth Class Feat to unlock a second Domain Spell... which is over half of your Class Feats to do what an ordinary Cleric could.

Nothing in what we've seen here says differently.

Radiant Oath

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MerlinCross wrote:
You have more options. I and others that want to play normal/old Cleric however, have feat taxes. This was how I felt over in Alchemist thread.

It's not a feat tax when you spend a feat to play the style of character you want to play, that's just called choosing a feat. The fact that you want to play the style of a PF1 Cleric doesn't change the fact that you are still choosing a style of play and thus selecting the feats that enable it.


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QuidEst wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
And as I said repeatedly in the Alchemist thread, it's not a damn tax if they're giving you the money you're using to pay them. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have several times: they're taking away your A, then they're giving 1 money, which you can use to either buy A, B, or C. You are strictly better off than you were before, because if you want A back, just buy it back with the free money they gave you.

We have different opinions on "Feat Tax" then.

What's the point of Offering A back to me even if it's free? It shouldn't have been taken away anyway. It feels very much like we are being allowed to "Buy Into" Archetypes.

So you have fun with B and C, those are great. I had my A taken away and shoved back into my hands with a confused "WTF" look on my face.

Actually now that I think about it, how the heck will Archetypes work if we just BUY what we want? Archetype removes X? Well I'll just buy it back. Balance nightmare anyone?

It costs three feats to get Old Cleric back. Second domain, plus two advanced domain feats. You get nine total.

Archetypes don’t trade anything. They give you more class feat options.

Cool, around the same amount for Two Weapon Fighting to get going. I suppose we have to have some kinda of starting point.

As for the Archetype worry, Which blog is that as I don't listen to the podcasts. I find the podcasts far to... I don't want to say untrustworthy but I'd prefer Official claim I suppose? Unsure how to actually word it.

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