Cleric Class Preview

Monday, April 23, 2018

Clerics are the first spellcasters to get a preview, so you might want to look at the blog about spells before you proceed! We have a lot to say about this class, so let's cut to the chase!

Cleric Features

Clerics' key ability score is Wisdom. This means that they get an ability boost to Wisdom at 1st level, increasing their Wisdom score by 2. They also use this key ability to determine the DC of their spells. Like other things in the Playtest, spells are also affected by your proficiency. Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

At 1st level, clerics get several class features, including their deity and domain, anathema, channel energy, and of course, divine spellcasting (which we'll talk more about in a bit). Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!) Your choice of domain gives you a unique domain power. Powers are a special type of spell that come only from your class, and are cast with Spell Points—think of things from Pathfinder First Edition like domain powers or a wizard's school powers. Powers are stronger than cantrips, but not as strong as your best spells. A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast. She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

A cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements. Though we give some examples of anathemic acts for the various gods and goddesses—like how it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better—we wanted to leave this broad enough that the GM and player can make the final say in how these work in their games. Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

As you go up in level, you'll increase your proficiency rank with divine spells to expert at 12th level, master at 16th level, and legendary at 19th level.

Divine Spellcasting

Of course, the cleric's main feature is her divine spellcasting! At 1st level, you can cast two 1st-level spells each day, which you prepare from the selections on the divine spell list. Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day). At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells. You'll always be able to cast two or three spells of your highest level and three spells of every lower level, plus your cantrips and powers. Like your other spells, your 9th-level spells cap out at three spells, so at 19th level you become legendary in spellcasting instead. So what about your 10th-level spells? We'll talk about those in a future blog!

We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score. Your Wisdom still matters greatly for your spell DC and other things important to clerics, but giving it slightly less weight makes it more practical now for you to play a cleric of Gorum who focuses on Strength and uses spells that don't involve your spell DC or that have decent effects even if your enemy succeeds at its save.

Now, it's not quite true to say those are all the spells you get. Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! Moreover, these spells are heightened to the highest level of spell you cast, so as soon as you hit 3rd level, all those heal or harm spells become 2nd-level spells. This replaces the Pathfinder First Edition cleric's spontaneous healing, which required her to sacrifice her prepared spells to make room for a heal spell. Now, you can use your channel energy to cast these extra heal spells, and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots (in fact, this can be a good use of some of your lower-level slots as you go up in level). Your choice of deity determines which spell you can cast with channel energy. Pharasma lets you cast heal, Rovagug makes you cast harm, and someone like Abadar or Lamashtu lets you choose your path at 1st level.

Cleric Feats

As we've mentioned before, we always wanted Pathfinder Second Edition to provide all classes with a sizeable number of options for customization. The cleric was one of the classes that had the most to gain, since a cleric got a bunch of class features at 1st level, then crickets for the rest of her career. The cleric's new class feats give her all sorts of new flexibility, so let's look at some of those!

At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!

At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains. At 8th level, if you channel positive energy, you could take the Channeled Succor feat so you can cast remove curse, remove disease, remove paralysis, or restoration with your channeled energy spells instead of just heal.

Let's take a look at a category of feats clerics have plenty of: metamagic! You can activate a metamagic feat when you cast a spell. This increases the number of actions required to cast the spell and modifies the spell in some way. At 1st level, for example, you could select Reach Spell to let you add a Somatic Casting action to a spell and increase its range by 30 feet (or to make a touch spell into a ranged touch spell with a 30-foot range). This is a metamagic feat lots of spellcasters can take, but the cleric gets some others that are more specific to her as well. Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature. Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round. And if you use a lot of metamagic, the 20th-level cleric feat Metamagic Channeler is a great choice—it lets you apply a metamagic feat to a harm or heal spell without adding an action to its casting!

So what are your favorite parts of the new cleric? Any builds you're itching to try out? How about concepts you made in Pathfinder First Edition you'd like to take another shot at?

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Clerics Kyra Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
351 to 400 of 928 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

PRO :
- Bonus to your main carac is cool
- Using channel energy to heal/harm is cool, since those two capacities are basically the same with how magic works now
- Clerics have a chance to stop being boring after 1st level
- More detailed gods anathemas is great too. I, from time to time, get divine players who argue about their gods just to be sure that they don't act wrong when they do. I just hope we will not be in a Paladin situation where Clerics will become stick-in-the-muds because they lose their powers otherwise.

MEH :
- I'm not sure about spell proficiency. For me it just feels like it's a cheap way to reduce Clerics' proficiencies' number. The only way it'll be usefull is if ennemies can have proficiency to their save throws.
- I don't get the use of Spell Points if it's just for your domain power and not your channel energy as well
- I mainly upgrade my spellcasting carac after level 1 for bonus spells. I get this simplifies the game, but I thought those were fine and didn't need to change.

CONS :
- Only one Domain power ? That's cheap. This will greatly reduce versatility. I hope those domain powers are way better than what we have right now...
- So, if I get it right... Clerics will now loose 1 spell for each spell level at level 20 compared to what they have now ? If that's it, that's... pretty lame.
- Urk... Alignement...
- Still don't like the fact that your heal/harm is based on your deity's alignement. It's pretty stupid to only be able to cast Heal with Sarenrae when you can burn your ennemies with Harm, and it's stupid to only be able to cast Harm with Urgathoa when half of your allies are living people.
- For the same reason, I don't like feats depending on your deity's alignement
- Oh god, not metamagic again... I always hated it. You can never take those because it costs you a feat for ONLY ONE effect, which you won't use 3/4 times, and I always have a hard time remembering the increase in spell levels/actions of each and every single metamagic feat. The fact that you add metamagic feats for only one specific spell is even more frustrating for me, because at least with "general" metamagic feat you can use them on a Fireball, an Agility or a Heal depending on the situation.

tl;dr : Some good things, but I'm not a fan on how the magical aspect of the Cleric is handled.

I have an old Inquisitor of Sarenrae concept I'll try to redo with the new Cleric to see how this new version handles battle-focused builds.

And please, stop calling everything "feats". It's confusing. You already had class features, feats and even added skill unlocks with Unchained.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

- Classes give you stat boosts at 1st level, Confirmed. Now I'm frightened about some players' sixth senses...

Ugh. Not sure I like this idea.

I don't like my ability scores being chosen for me.

Were you not going to max out your Wisdom playing a Cleric anyway?

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

- Classes give you stat boosts at 1st level, Confirmed. Now I'm frightened about some players' sixth senses...

Ugh. Not sure I like this idea.

I don't like my ability scores being chosen for me.

Were you not going to max out your Wisdom playing a Cleric anyway?

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

A +2 to Wisdom isn't going to max it out anyway, so you could still go lower Wisdom. Also if you start as a different class then you still might not max your Wisdom. I'm sure there's plenty of ability score customization from Ancestry, Background, Class and whatever freestyle bonuses you get at character creation.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Almarane wrote:
- I'm not sure about spell proficiency. For me it just feels like it's a cheap way to reduce Clerics' proficiencies' number. The only way it'll be usefull is if ennemies can have proficiency to their save throws.

Huh? It'll add directly to Save DC. That's plenty good in and of itself.

Almarane wrote:
- I don't get the use of Spell Points if it's just for your domain power and not your channel energy as well

Well, it's for all your Domain Powers, not just one.

Almarane wrote:
- Only one Domain power ? That's cheap. This will greatly reduce versatility. I hope those domain powers are way better than what we have right now...

Kyra's was a ranged touch attack for 1d6+4 damage at 1st level, I believe. which is pretty solid.

Almarane wrote:
- Still don't like the fact that your heal/harm is based on your deity's alignement. It's pretty stupid to only be able to cast Heal with Sarenrae when you can burn your ennemies with Harm, and it's stupid to only be able to cast Harm with Urgathoa when half of your allies are living people.

It's no longer based on alignment, just on the specific deity.

HWalsh wrote:

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

Luckily, nothing prevents you from having only Wis 12 on your PF2 Cleric. Heck, if you're playing an Ancestry with a Wis penalty, you can have a Wis of only 10.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Iammars wrote:
Wait, Lamashtu will let you heal? Really?

She's a mother goddess with lots of children to look after. They might be all evil monsters, but they need boo-boos patched up too.

The Blog wrote:
Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

Monk, druid, and paladin?


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Almarane wrote:
- I'm not sure about spell proficiency. For me it just feels like it's a cheap way to reduce Clerics' proficiencies' number. The only way it'll be usefull is if ennemies can have proficiency to their save throws.

Huh? It'll add directly to Save DC. That's plenty good in and of itself.

Almarane wrote:
- I don't get the use of Spell Points if it's just for your domain power and not your channel energy as well

Well, it's for all your Domain Powers, not just one.

Almarane wrote:
- Only one Domain power ? That's cheap. This will greatly reduce versatility. I hope those domain powers are way better than what we have right now...

Kyra's was a ranged touch attack for 1d6+4 damage at 1st level, I believe. which is pretty solid.

Almarane wrote:
- Still don't like the fact that your heal/harm is based on your deity's alignement. It's pretty stupid to only be able to cast Heal with Sarenrae when you can burn your ennemies with Harm, and it's stupid to only be able to cast Harm with Urgathoa when half of your allies are living people.

It's no longer based on alignment, just on the specific deity.

HWalsh wrote:

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

Luckily, nothing prevents you from having only Wis 12 on your PF2 Cleric. Heck, if you're playing an Ancestry with a Wis penalty, you can have a Wis of only 10.

This is true - But at this point it is becoming more confusing as to how Ability scores in PF2 will be generated.

All we know for now is:
Everyone gets to add +2 to one of their choice

Races get (at least) +2 to one stat, while non-humans (and possibly humans) get +2 to two stats and -2 to one stat.

Background, presumably, adds +2 to something?

Now classes add +2 to something.

That is a LOT of +'s that aren't fully chosen or placed.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Logan, there isn't anything about this cleric that I like. I started playing pathfinder because it is based off of the d&d 3.5 system. 4th edition d&d is horrible and 5th edition is just as bad. From the way it seems pathfinder 2nd edition is going to be just as bad as 4th and 5th editions of d&d. Maybe there will still be people playing pathfinder 1st edition, if not my days of table top rpg'ing are at an end.


HWalsh wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

- Classes give you stat boosts at 1st level, Confirmed. Now I'm frightened about some players' sixth senses...

Ugh. Not sure I like this idea.

I don't like my ability scores being chosen for me.

Were you not going to max out your Wisdom playing a Cleric anyway?

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

Being cleric gives you +2 to wisdom.

Did you plan to play a cleric with less than Wisdom 12?

Liberty's Edge

HWalsh wrote:

This is true - But at this point it is becoming more confusing as to how Ability scores in PF2 will be generated.

All we know for now is:
Everyone gets to add +2 to one of their choice

Races get (at least) +2 to one stat, while non-humans (and possibly humans) get +2 to two stats and -2 to one stat.

Background, presumably, adds +2 to something?

Now classes add +2 to something.

That is a LOT of +'s that aren't fully chosen or placed.

The current theory is as that instead of Point Buy you get the following in order:

Ancestry: +2 to two specific scores, -2 to one specific score, one floating +2 (probably two floating +2s instead for humans)
Background: +2 to one specific score, one floating +2
Class: +2 to one specific score
First Ability Up: Four floating +2s

And now you have your character's Abilities.

Those numbers are speculative, but the basic format of getting bonuses at each of four stages is pretty much for sure at this point, and the number of floating bonuses is almost certainly correct as well.


eddv wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"

One guy at TSR decided not to buy a thesaurus and our hobby has been plagued by poor word choice for TRADITION ever since.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but this is not true, in the 1st Ed D&D DMG they talk about why they went with universal "Level", instead of also using "Order" and "Rank".

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm glad to see that a 1st-level Cleric can actually heal people. I hated the fact that a 3.5 Cleric was already shot out after two CLWs and didn't have room for anything interesting beside that. Channeling did help a bit in PF1, but it was pretty lame at 1st level as well and didn't help against the usual «this one guy lost most of his hitpoints» kind of problem.

The new number of spells makes sense to me, too. You get a good number of your current highest tier. While you have fewer slots at low levels, those weren't going to be too useful anyway, and are now presumably supplanted by domain powers and cantrips. I also imagine any spammable spells like Resist Energy and the like will have a three-action version that covers the entire party with a single slot.

Finally, I'm amazed that there are still people with huge misconceptions about PF2 ability arrays. We already know we can guide the outcome rather finely with our choice of background, floating stats, etc., and that it's very easy to get an 18 in your primary stat and a generous helping of support stats. It's better than point-buy in that it removes the need/option to gut your dump stats and still gives you all you need, with some flavor added for free.


For the ability score bonus, I hope they go with the way it was implemented in one of the 5th Ed Playtest documents (why they dropped it for the final product, is beyond me...).

Cleric, Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Wisdom, Strength, or Constitution score.

Fighter, Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Strength, Dexterity or Constitution score.

Rogue, Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence score.

Wizard, Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Intelligence or Constitution score.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

This is true - But at this point it is becoming more confusing as to how Ability scores in PF2 will be generated.

All we know for now is:
Everyone gets to add +2 to one of their choice

Races get (at least) +2 to one stat, while non-humans (and possibly humans) get +2 to two stats and -2 to one stat.

Background, presumably, adds +2 to something?

Now classes add +2 to something.

That is a LOT of +'s that aren't fully chosen or placed.

The current theory is as that instead of Point Buy you get the following in order:

Ancestry: +2 to two specific scores, -2 to one specific score, one floating +2 (probably two floating +2s instead for humans)
Background: +2 to one specific score, one floating +2
Class: +2 to one specific score
First Ability Up: Four floating +2s

And now you have your character's Abilities.

Those numbers are speculative, but the basic format of getting bonuses at each of four stages is pretty much for sure at this point, and the number of floating bonuses is almost certainly correct as well.

The inclusion of floating scores each step is clever. Means everybody can have 18 in their main stat, as long as it is not penalized by your ancestry. That make things like Elven fighters or halfling wizards more viable, as you are not "incentivized" to pick certain races for certain classes.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I like it. I like it a lot.

I think spell DC scaling on character level, rather than spell level, is the best change. This means that level 1 spells continue to be useful as you level. I think this is why it is fine to reduce the the number of spells. With the current system low level slots become irrelevant, now all spell slots are valuable.
Now, couple this with cantrips, spell power, weapon attacks and resonance and it seems like there are many tactical choices around spending resources in a fight.

I don't think the full effects of proficiency for spells has been released, but this could also have some effect on how often you can cast them.

I wonder how concentration and anti-casting reactions will work. This has a lot of implications on casters in melee.

I am not a huge fan of preparing spells. It does add a bit of skill, albeit with a lot of overhead.

Metamagic adding actions is great. Really looking forward to more details around metamagic.
I hope persistent meta magic does not make it into the game as is. That was way too stronk. Similarly dazing spell.

Some of the class feats sounds excellent, and I like how you can pick what you want to focus on. I also like that if you put class feats that used spell points, you get more spell points.

Separating the free cure/harm charges from spell points is a good decision. Slightly more ability tracking, but worth it for the choice.

More generally, I am a big fan of the action cost of spell casting system as well as the spell level scaling. Meaningful choices when leveling up, meaningful choices when preparing spells and meaningful choices when in combat.

Finally, why are people crying about game balance in a system they have never played and barely understand?!


Malthraz wrote:
I think spell DC scaling on character level, rather than spell level, is the best change.

While cool, it's hardly groundbreaking, as one of the most common sense houserules for PF1/3rd Ed is: Spell Save DC = 10 + 1/2 hit dice + spellcasting modifier.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Catharsis wrote:
Will Clerics have access to an attack cantrip? Searing Light maybe?

Thankyou! I've been racking my brain trying to remember what the dang thing was called. Yes. Based on everything we've seen thus far we will almost certainly get something like Searing Light.

Liberty's Edge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
The inclusion of floating scores each step is clever. Means everybody can have 18 in their main stat, as long as it is not penalized by your ancestry. That make things like Elven fighters or halfling wizards more viable, as you are not "incentivized" to pick certain races for certain classes.

Yup! I'm a big fan of it conceptually for more or less exactly that reason.


I would prefer if the cap at 1st level was 16, so they have to wait until 5th level to bump it to 18.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Weather Report wrote:
I would prefer if the cap at 1st level was 16, so they have to wait until 5th level to bump it to 18.

Some people would also strongly prefer 20 as it was in PF1. I think 18 is a good compromise between the two (as well as my own sweet spot).


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I don't think I like the no feat levels in lieu of proficiency bump. I think I'd rather still offer the feat, but make the Divine Casting Expert feat proficiency require Cleric 10, Divine Casting Master require Cleric 14, and Divine Casting Legend require Cleric 18. Let a player choose whether to boost up their proficiency or perhaps take another sweet sweet class feat. I think this will just make things smoother going forward, if everything on the character is essentially a Feat, or a Spell.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!"

But, see here, there's this and this to consider and we haven't even seen...

"Didn't you hear me?!? The sky is falling!!!"

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
I would prefer if the cap at 1st level was 16, so they have to wait until 5th level to bump it to 18.
Some people would also strongly prefer 20 as it was in PF1. I think 18 is a good compromise between the two (as well as my own sweet spot).

I think 18 makes the most sense, since it allows you to distinguish a dedicated build (18) from a balanced one (16, 16) as well as have relevant secondary stats (14). Having secondaries at 12 makes them rather homeopathic.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Toblakai wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:


Oh, and you nerfed it by taking away the ranged aspect. So you can focus a channel positive energy or use one that is effectively two levels lower in power.

A "nerf" is when you change something to be weaker in a game. So what was the original version of this ability in PF2E that was nerfed?

In PF1 you could move and channel. In PF2 you can't do that, the area channel takes all three of your actions. You either need to channel where you are right now, or move and hope that the battlefield doesn't change significantly before it's your turn again.

You might consider that a nerf. As far as the amount of healing that it does, I think it's better, but casting it consumes your entire turn.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Reduced number of spells and no bonus spells from stats is extremely disappointing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
I would prefer if the cap at 1st level was 16, so they have to wait until 5th level to bump it to 18.
Some people would also strongly prefer 20 as it was in PF1. I think 18 is a good compromise between the two (as well as my own sweet spot).

Right on, I dig, so, is there a general ability score cap, or is the sky the limit, as in PF1 (characters as strong as giants)?


Dragon78 wrote:
Reduced number of spells and no bonus spells from stats is extremely disappointing.

I really like it, another good PF1/3rd Ed Houserule I use (no bonus spells for high ability scores); 4 spells per level is plenty.

Liberty's Edge

Weather Report wrote:
Right on, I dig, so, is there a general ability score cap, or is the sky the limit, as in PF1 (characters as strong as giants)?

In the short term (ie: at 1st level) it's pretty clearly 18. By 20th, based on math samples, it's probably around 26. And that's seemingly the hard cap including everything. It might also be lower than that, but I personally doubt it.

So still pretty high, but only barely into Giant range if they keep Giant strength scores around the same (Hill Giants have a 25 in PF1).

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
I like most of this. I was surprised to see that Channel Energy and Spell Points are not connected. I was expecting them to draw from the same pool. My knee-jerk reaction is "don't like!" because I thought the whole point of Spell Points was to get away from having to track several different resource pools. I'll wait to see how things play out at the table though.
Spell Points are used for abilities unique to their pool and to the class. The spells from channel are essentially more prepared spells per day.
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

Indeed, we're eliminating the tyranny of forced (or pressured at least) conversion of the stuff you wanted into heals by giving you a bunch of free heals.

I thought that that was eliminated by the Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

Scarab Sages

Weather Report wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
I would prefer if the cap at 1st level was 16, so they have to wait until 5th level to bump it to 18.
Some people would also strongly prefer 20 as it was in PF1. I think 18 is a good compromise between the two (as well as my own sweet spot).
Right on, I dig, so, is there a general ability score cap, or is the sky the limit, as in PF1 (characters as strong as giants)?

I’m guessing there will be a soft cap from level increases and lack of other stat-boosting options.

Liberty's Edge

Catharsis wrote:
I’m guessing there will be a soft cap from level increases and lack of other stat-boosting options.

This would probably, not so coincidentally IMO, make said cap 26 precisely.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ecidon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
I like most of this. I was surprised to see that Channel Energy and Spell Points are not connected. I was expecting them to draw from the same pool. My knee-jerk reaction is "don't like!" because I thought the whole point of Spell Points was to get away from having to track several different resource pools. I'll wait to see how things play out at the table though.
Spell Points are used for abilities unique to their pool and to the class. The spells from channel are essentially more prepared spells per day.
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

Indeed, we're eliminating the tyranny of forced (or pressured at least) conversion of the stuff you wanted into heals by giving you a bunch of free heals.

I thought that that was eliminated by the Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

Which they are nerfing in PF2 for no good reason. :( I still don’t understand why easy access to CLW wands should be a problem rather than one of the foundations on which the game and adventure designs rely.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmm. Mostly sounds good.
Except...

Ok, if powers are not spells, the power source should NOT be 'spell points.' Don't level-level-level this for no reason. Go with something general, like essence or focus.

Anathema- I'm not a fan of designer based RP restrictions. It's heavy handed, and adventurers in particular tend to be individuals, not stamped out of a press.

On the other hand, if Paladins lose the Wacky Code of Overly Specific and Genre Inappropriate Mythologized Randomness in favor of also getting a god relevant anathema it's kind of a net win.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tangent101 wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"

I've never had anyone ask that in 40 years of gaming. Characters have levels. Spells have levels. It's a wild leap of logic that they should have the same numbers at the same time.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

BTW, Paizo, please say anathematic, not anathemic.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
I’m guessing there will be a soft cap from level increases and lack of other stat-boosting options.
This would probably, not so coincidentally IMO, make said cap 26 precisely.

So, 18 at 1st level, +2 at 5th: 20, +2 at 10th: 22, +2 at 15th: 24, +2 at 20th: 26.

Though, it might increase by 1 for every +2 bonus after 18, so you cap at 22.

I would prefer that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Quote:
We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score.
In much the way an embezzler makes a company’s finances more straightforward by emptying out their pension investment accounts. I respect the audacity of this phrasing even as I have to be amazed at the underlying contempt for your audience.

That's not contempt. It's factually true. Bonus Spells added some complexity to the 'How many spells do I have?' question that I'm happy to see removed (especially since it involved flipping to a whole different chapter to find out). The less often you have to flip between different parts of the book when making or leveling a character the better for new players and the more convenient for everyone.

They also decreased the total number of spells, but that's sort of a separate issue.

My embezzlement as simplification comparison is also factually true, but claiming either as a motivation should get you laughed out of court or this comment thread. If you want to simplify and have no other effect you modestly increase the spell slots by some reasonable approximation of the old ability score increases without requiring the investment. But they did the opposite. Simplification is an effect, but it’s not the reason. Pretending otherwise is hilarious.

Another analogy would be a claim of tax simplification as the motivation for a change. Is it revenue neutral and with the same distribution effects afterwards? If not, you can be assured tax simplification was at the bottom of the list of reasons why the bill was drafted.

I have no opinion on the change itself, merely the second rate politician marketing appended to it.

Both of your analogies compare $s to spells. $s are all equal. Spells are not. Therein lies the "simplification."


HWalsh wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

- Classes give you stat boosts at 1st level, Confirmed. Now I'm frightened about some players' sixth senses...

Ugh. Not sure I like this idea.

I don't like my ability scores being chosen for me.

Were you not going to max out your Wisdom playing a Cleric anyway?

Not always.

1. I don't always maximize a specific stat, I have run clerics that started with a 16 rather than 18 Wisdom.
2. I'm not always going pure Cleric.
3. There are a few Cleric Builds that don't really focus on Wisdom as the absolute highest stat (though this ties into number 2, as often this is leaving the class at some point.)

Still, I actually think this edition gives you more flexibility in your stats. There's been no mention that you need "Stat of X to cast Y level spells". This means you could build your cleric so they wound up with a 12 Wisdom (10 if you're a goblin, but that's a very specific race), and be fine with that throughout your career.

I like that, combat clerics are "required" to have a base wisdom of 12, but that's it. There's enough floating stat boosts and wide array of choices that influence stats, that I still think you can get a fairly wide array of stats.

I, too, am not sure how I feel about not having the +/-1. In fact, if they *are* going on an every other point system, they could have said all stats start at 5, and your bonus/penalty is stat-5 (though I get they don't want a huge shift from the old/other systems.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ok, I read a few pages of mostly pointless discussions that went nowhere (sorry), so I'll ignore all that and focus on the blog itself.

Quote:
Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

So what's a "spell roll"? I assume the PF2 veriant of a caster level check, as there's no more caster level.

Quote:
A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast.

So advanced domain powers will/could cost more than one Spell Point? Maybe even the base power of additional domains gained from feats?

Quote:
She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Assumig another domain is an "other way to cast powers", a feat granting additional Spell Points would proabably need to grant at the very least 4-6 Points. Otherwise, there's little reason not to simply get another domain to get more points and more powers. Well, not unless you are at 3 domains already and want even more Spell Points.

On the other hand, if all domains share one pool, you'd need to use other sources to get another pool. Multiclass, Archetypes or maybe some general feats come to mind as possible sources.

Quote:
it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better

Seems like lying itself is tolerated, just not using the goddess-given powers to enhance your lies? This would have some very interesting implications for all classes with an Anathema (which are probably Cleric, Paladin and Druid, maybe Monk).

Quote:
Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you

Let's hope even a non-critical fail has some effect like a debuff or someting like that.

Quote:
At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead

Wait, I assumed increased Proficiency for divince spells would increase spell DCs. Is this in addition to proficiencies or will spell proficiencies do something else entirely?

Quote:
Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature.

Command Undead is metamagic, but Turn Undead is not?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
\/\/arlok wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"

I've never had anyone ask that in 40 years of gaming. Characters have levels. Spells have levels. It's a wild leap of logic that they should have the same numbers at the same time.

I’m third level. Why don’t I get three feats? About as sensible as that.

That said, I do think the word spell tier should be adopted.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

An eth ema
Do doo be-do-do
An eth ema
Do do-do do
An eth ema
Do doo de-do-do de-do-do de-do-do de-do-do-doodle do do do-doo do!

I hope we're all proud of ourselves. This will never die now.


Well, I guess you could use level for everything, evenly, you have a number of feats, spells, skills, and attacks, etc, as your level, and you add your level to every roll.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would have said that I was estatic at the reduction in spell slots if that came with an adequate power compensation on the remaining ones. But seeing from the spell blog that most offensive spells have been nerfed, especially damage ones, and combining the fact that spells have to be heightened to keep up with the moster CR, make me feel like spellcaster are getting the shaft.
We are looking at around 5-6 spells of relevant power at any given level, and then we are back at spamming cantrips. I'm not fond of that system.

Unrelated note, spell tier sounds awfull. If we really are going to pool for a rename, to me the only sensible choice would be spell circles.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Catharsis wrote:
BTW, Paizo, please say anathematic, not anathemic.

Yes to this. "Anathemic" isn't in the OED and doesn't seem to be in use at all

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Voss wrote:

Hmm. Mostly sounds good.

Except...

Ok, if powers are not spells, the power source should NOT be 'spell points.' Don't level-level-level this for no reason. Go with something general, like essence or focus.

Spell Blog wrote:
The powers are now treated as a special kind of spell and they are all cast using Spell Points.

They're getting rid of the whole "when is a spell like/supernatural ability like a spell and when is it not" mess. Spell like powers are just spells accessed a different way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Blave wrote:
Quote:
Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

So what's a "spell roll"? I assume the PF2 variant of a caster level check, as there's no more caster level.

Maybe concentration checks are still a thing.


You might make a spell roll when casting a spell, on a critical success, the spell is maximised and you keep the slot, and on a critical failure, the spell fails and you lose the slot.


You know, I see a lot of dissatisfaction with the Class Feats replacing standard class abilities. I think what some of you may be missing is that it seems they have melded archetypal changes to class abilities, switching something out for something else, into Class Feats. You can mix and match archetypes to create the type of character You want to play. And class feats seem to make this possible.


JoCa wrote:
You know, I see a lot of dissatisfaction with the Class Feats replacing standard class abilities. I think what some of you may be missing is that it seems they have melded archetypal changes to class abilities, switching something out for something else, into Class Feats. You can mix and match archetypes to create the type of character You want to play. And class feats seem to make this possible.

Yes, it's like a list of variant class features to choose from, will just take time to call class features, class feats, as we also have ancestral, skill, and generic feats, too.

So everything seems to be level and feats.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blog wrote:
Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round.

I don't know how high the bonus to attack and damage is, but at a duration of one round it doesn't look that powerful to me (for 8th level).

351 to 400 of 928 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Cleric Class Preview All Messageboards