Cleric Class Preview

Monday, April 23, 2018

Clerics are the first spellcasters to get a preview, so you might want to look at the blog about spells before you proceed! We have a lot to say about this class, so let's cut to the chase!

Cleric Features

Clerics' key ability score is Wisdom. This means that they get an ability boost to Wisdom at 1st level, increasing their Wisdom score by 2. They also use this key ability to determine the DC of their spells. Like other things in the Playtest, spells are also affected by your proficiency. Clerics are trained in divine spells, so they add 10 + their level + their Wisdom modifier for their spell DC. They use this same proficiency for touch attacks of their spells and for spell rolls.

At 1st level, clerics get several class features, including their deity and domain, anathema, channel energy, and of course, divine spellcasting (which we'll talk more about in a bit). Your deity has a major impact on your character, and you'll see a lot of similarities to Pathfinder First Edition, such as being trained in your deity's favored weapon and getting access to one of their domains. (Come back on Friday for a ton of detail about those parts of your character!) Your choice of domain gives you a unique domain power. Powers are a special type of spell that come only from your class, and are cast with Spell Points—think of things from Pathfinder First Edition like domain powers or a wizard's school powers. Powers are stronger than cantrips, but not as strong as your best spells. A cleric's initial power costs 1 Spell Point to cast. She gets a starting pool of Spell Points equal to her Wisdom, and can increase this by taking feats later on. If she gets other ways to cast powers of a different type, she combines all her Spell Points into one pool.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

A cleric's deity also imposes some restrictions on her, collectively called anathema, representing acts that go against her deity's will and teachings or violate their alignment requirements. Though we give some examples of anathemic acts for the various gods and goddesses—like how it's anathema for a cleric of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, to cast a spell that would help her lie better—we wanted to leave this broad enough that the GM and player can make the final say in how these work in their games. Many other classes that follow similar restrictions have their own anathema. Care to guess which ones those might be?

As you go up in level, you'll increase your proficiency rank with divine spells to expert at 12th level, master at 16th level, and legendary at 19th level.

Divine Spellcasting

Of course, the cleric's main feature is her divine spellcasting! At 1st level, you can cast two 1st-level spells each day, which you prepare from the selections on the divine spell list. Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day). At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells. You'll always be able to cast two or three spells of your highest level and three spells of every lower level, plus your cantrips and powers. Like your other spells, your 9th-level spells cap out at three spells, so at 19th level you become legendary in spellcasting instead. So what about your 10th-level spells? We'll talk about those in a future blog!

We made your number of spells more straightforward by eliminating Pathfinder First Edition's bonus spells granted for having a high ability score. Your Wisdom still matters greatly for your spell DC and other things important to clerics, but giving it slightly less weight makes it more practical now for you to play a cleric of Gorum who focuses on Strength and uses spells that don't involve your spell DC or that have decent effects even if your enemy succeeds at its save.

Now, it's not quite true to say those are all the spells you get. Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! Moreover, these spells are heightened to the highest level of spell you cast, so as soon as you hit 3rd level, all those heal or harm spells become 2nd-level spells. This replaces the Pathfinder First Edition cleric's spontaneous healing, which required her to sacrifice her prepared spells to make room for a heal spell. Now, you can use your channel energy to cast these extra heal spells, and if you think you'll need more healing than this provides, you can always prepare more heal spells using your normal spell slots (in fact, this can be a good use of some of your lower-level slots as you go up in level). Your choice of deity determines which spell you can cast with channel energy. Pharasma lets you cast heal, Rovagug makes you cast harm, and someone like Abadar or Lamashtu lets you choose your path at 1st level.

Cleric Feats

As we've mentioned before, we always wanted Pathfinder Second Edition to provide all classes with a sizeable number of options for customization. The cleric was one of the classes that had the most to gain, since a cleric got a bunch of class features at 1st level, then crickets for the rest of her career. The cleric's new class feats give her all sorts of new flexibility, so let's look at some of those!

At 1st level, you might pick Communal healing so when you cast heal to tend to a creature other than yourself, you regain some Hit Points too, or you might take Turn Undead, which forces undead that critically fail their saves against your heal spells to flee from you. (This works great with the 3-action version of heal!) You could also pick Expanded Domain to explore your deity's domains further, gaining the initial power from a different domain than the first one you chose. You can select this feat twice, letting you delve into a maximum of three domains!

At higher levels, you gain new cleric feats at every even level, except levels 12 and 16, when you increase your spell DCs instead. At 4th level, you might pick up Advanced Domain to gain the advanced power from one of your domains. At 8th level, if you channel positive energy, you could take the Channeled Succor feat so you can cast remove curse, remove disease, remove paralysis, or restoration with your channeled energy spells instead of just heal.

Let's take a look at a category of feats clerics have plenty of: metamagic! You can activate a metamagic feat when you cast a spell. This increases the number of actions required to cast the spell and modifies the spell in some way. At 1st level, for example, you could select Reach Spell to let you add a Somatic Casting action to a spell and increase its range by 30 feet (or to make a touch spell into a ranged touch spell with a 30-foot range). This is a metamagic feat lots of spellcasters can take, but the cleric gets some others that are more specific to her as well. Command Undead, a 4th-level feat, lets you change the effects of any harm spell you cast to instead take control of an undead creature. Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round. And if you use a lot of metamagic, the 20th-level cleric feat Metamagic Channeler is a great choice—it lets you apply a metamagic feat to a harm or heal spell without adding an action to its casting!

So what are your favorite parts of the new cleric? Any builds you're itching to try out? How about concepts you made in Pathfinder First Edition you'd like to take another shot at?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Clerics Kyra Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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edduardco wrote:
For the guys discussing feat taxes made I point at a very clear example in 10th level spells being gated behind a feat, breaking the progressing established of "At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells." I think that is the worse offender so far concerning feat taxes.

Can you point out where it's said they're gated behind a feat? I can't find anything that seems to suggest it.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Will Clerics have access to an attack cantrip? Searing Light maybe?
Thankyou! I've been racking my brain trying to remember what the dang thing was called. Yes. Based on everything we've seen thus far we will almost certainly get something like Searing Light.

Yeah, not ground breaking, but definitely a welcome change.

Silver Crusade

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willuwontu wrote:
edduardco wrote:
For the guys discussing feat taxes made I point at a very clear example in 10th level spells being gated behind a feat, breaking the progressing established of "At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells." I think that is the worse offender so far concerning feat taxes.
Can you point out where it's said they're gated behind a feat? I can't find anything that seems to suggest it.

See here:

Joe M. wrote:

NEW INFORMATION about 10th Level spells. From this (long) interview with Jason in Game Informer:

Jason wrote:

You don’t get tenth-level spells automatically. You have to take a feat just to get them. That’s where spells like Wish live now. Let’s be honest, it’s one of those spells that can do anything. We have some guidelines built into the spell, but it really is there to be the make-or-unmake-reality spell. You shouldn’t use it to wreck your campaign, since it always comes with the chance that the DM will mess with you and corrupt your wish, so you have to be careful.

But this also gave us the opportunity to write other cool tenth-level spells. There’s one for druids that can wreck an entire environment by invoking a devastation on an area. Don’t make a high-level Druid angry because they will ruin your town! I think we’ve got another spell floating around there that allows you to turn into Godzilla or something akin to it. There are some crazy things floating around with the high-level spells of the game, but that’s appropriate for that level. At that point in time, characters are able to do amazing, almost god-like things when you’re up at the nineteenth-level or something. You know, the magic system is really exciting. 


Gyor wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
I like this.

Honestly I think prof in Divine Magic effected their casting stat and the DC of thier spells from what I read, it didn't seem like it effected the spell list.

So maybe Wisdom will be the Spell casting stat for all prepared spell divine spellcasting classes like Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Intelligence will the stat for all prepared Arcane Spellcasting classes Wizards and eventually Magus, and Charisma will be the spellcasting stat for both Arcane and Divine Spontaneous Casters like Sorcerers and Oracles.

So if you a mechanic changes your spellcasting stat it changes the source of your spells.

So no matter what spell lists a class has, if it used Wisdom to cast them, it's divine magic.

I don't know how Psionics fits into this theory.

? Did you mean to quote me?

Also psionics isn't a thing in PF1 1pp (psychic is though)

Shadow Lodge

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
The inclusion of floating scores each step is clever. Means everybody can have 18 in their main stat, as long as it is not penalized by your ancestry. That make things like Elven fighters or halfling wizards more viable, as you are not "incentivized" to pick certain races for certain classes.

I like this too, but I'd like to see a way for races that have a penalty in a stat to be able to get to the 18 cap as well, perhaps if they are using the method Deadmanwalking proposed instead of the four +2s you get a single +4 with the caveat that it can't bring a stat above 18

It always bothered me that in PF1e some races were just better at being a certain class than others. A Dwarf sorcerer (baring the Empyreal bloodline) will never be as good as an Elven sorcerer and even worse compared to Halfling/Gnome.


Joe M. wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
edduardco wrote:
For the guys discussing feat taxes made I point at a very clear example in 10th level spells being gated behind a feat, breaking the progressing established of "At every odd level, you get access to a new level of spells." I think that is the worse offender so far concerning feat taxes.
Can you point out where it's said they're gated behind a feat? I can't find anything that seems to suggest it.

See here:

Joe M. wrote:

NEW INFORMATION about 10th Level spells. From this (long) interview with Jason in Game Informer:

Jason wrote:

You don’t get tenth-level spells automatically. You have to take a feat just to get them. That’s where spells like Wish live now. Let’s be honest, it’s one of those spells that can do anything. We have some guidelines built into the spell, but it really is there to be the make-or-unmake-reality spell. You shouldn’t use it to wreck your campaign, since it always comes with the chance that the DM will mess with you and corrupt your wish, so you have to be careful.

But this also gave us the opportunity to write other cool tenth-level spells. There’s one for druids that can wreck an entire environment by invoking a devastation on an area. Don’t make a high-level Druid angry because they will ruin your town! I think we’ve got another spell floating around there that allows you to turn into Godzilla or something akin to it. There are some crazy things floating around with the high-level spells of the game, but that’s appropriate for that level. At that point in time, characters are able to do amazing, almost god-like things when you’re up at the nineteenth-level or something. You know, the magic system is really exciting. 

Thanks, and now I can see why they're gated behind a feat.


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I don't know why do I even read this blogs and comments. PF2 clearly is not a game for me.

Good luck in your new 13th-Age/M&M/D&D4/D&D5 esque, Paizo.


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So we finally got saving throws with the same/similar scaling numbers than other mathematical progressions in the game. Glad to see this! :D

However, the spell proficiency to touch attacks indicates that we'll have greater touch AC to monsters...
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not make standard/physical AC and touch AC having the same difference/mechanic than in Starfinder... This is awful... :(


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Bruno Mares wrote:

So we finally got saving throws with the same/similar scaling numbers than other mathematical progressions in the game. Glad to see this! :D

However, the spell proficiency to touch attacks indicates that we'll have greater touch AC to monsters...
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not make standard/physical AC and touch AC having the same difference/mechanic than in Starfinder... This is awful... :(

Yeah, I'm not too thrilled that Touch AC is still around, especially as you use your spellcasting modifier for spell attacks and everyone has the same BAB.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Will Clerics have access to an attack cantrip? Searing Light maybe?
Thankyou! I've been racking my brain trying to remember what the dang thing was called. Yes. Based on everything we've seen thus far we will almost certainly get something like Searing Light.

It's now called Fire Ray (Source).

Liberty's Edge

Hmm. Cantrips are sounding very similar to at will spells in another game I wont mention.

PROS
+ I like the new heal/harm mechanics
+ I LOVE anathema (it’s always irked me when people completely ignore the tenets of their god - here’s hoping Desnan’s are banned from hold spells etc)

CONS
- what happened to domain spells? Does this mean now clerics of fire gods won’t be able to cast fireball, while travel clerics lose fly and dimension door. These little dips into other classes Spell lists have always been (for me) one of the most important flavour aspects of a cleric.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Leyren wrote:
Blog wrote:
Heroic Recovery, an 8th-level feat, adds a powerful buff to heal spells: you can target one creature at range using 3 actions (the 2-action version of heal, plus another action to activate the metamagic) to heal them for a solid number of hit points and also give them a bonus to attack and damage rolls and a 5-foot increase to its speed for 1 round.
I don't know how high the bonus to attack and damage is, but at a duration of one round it doesn't look that powerful to me (for 8th level).

That's because- assuming you're using channel or a top slot- you're also healing them for between a third and half their health.

… Wow, negative energy Clerics are going to be brutal. Unload three no-save touch attacks, each hitting for a between a third and half the Cleric's health. Since it's touch, there's a better chance of hitting and of critting, and you're using Wisdom for the attack roll.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Alyss Glimmerthorn wrote:

CONS

- what happened to domain spells? Does this mean now clerics of fire gods won’t be able to cast fireball, while travel clerics lose fly and dimension door. These little dips into other classes Spell lists have always been (for me) one of the most important flavour aspects of a cleric.

I believe there was actually specific mention of fire domain using fireballs somewhere. Sorry I don't remember the source, though, so don't take it as certain.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.

3 spells per level, stronger cantrips, inflated HP.

The recipe for the kind of 5e combats I don't like, without encounter powers from 4e to help prevent at-will spam.


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Thoughts on 10th level spells being locked behind feats.

People seem to be assuming that the only way to get 10th level spell slots is through feats. I'm guessing that 10th level spells are only given through feats (and you probably get to learn 2 with a feat), but you'll have the slots available so even without the feat you can heighten your spells to that slot.


QuidEst wrote:
… Wow, negative energy Clerics are going to be brutal. Unload three no-save touch attacks, each hitting for a between a third and half the Cleric's health. Since it's touch, there's a better chance of hitting and of critting, and you're using Wisdom for the attack roll.

Well, the damage of Heal only increases by +1d8 per higher spell slot instead of the +2d8 for healing. So Harm will probably also gain +1d8 damage per hogher slot. You'll most likely also get the iterative attack penalties of -5 and -10 on the second and third attack respectively.

Silver Crusade

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willuwontu wrote:

Thoughts on 10th level spells being locked behind feats.

People seem to be assuming that the only way to get 10th level spell slots is through feats. I'm guessing that 10th level spells are only given through feats (and you probably get to learn 2 with a feat), but you'll have the slots available so even without the feat you can heighten your spells to that slot.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that possibility.

Scarab Sages

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gwynfrid wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Will Clerics have access to an attack cantrip? Searing Light maybe?
Thankyou! I've been racking my brain trying to remember what the dang thing was called. Yes. Based on everything we've seen thus far we will almost certainly get something like Searing Light.
It's now called Fire Ray (Source).

Fire Ray is not a cantrip, it’s a Fire Domain power limited by spell points. I’m hoping for a Cleric cantrip that would allow for sustainable weapon-free combat, as in 4e or 5e.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Blave wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
… Wow, negative energy Clerics are going to be brutal. Unload three no-save touch attacks, each hitting for a between a third and half the Cleric's health. Since it's touch, there's a better chance of hitting and of critting, and you're using Wisdom for the attack roll.
Well, the damage of Heal only increases by +1d8 per higher spell slot instead of the +2d8 for healing. So Harm will probably also gain +1d8 damage per hogher slot. You'll most likely also get the iterative attack penalties of -5 and -10 on the second and third attack respectively.

… Ah, okay. Missed that; that sounds much more reasonable. So the Cleric is only one-shotting on repeated crits against low-Con targets. Yeah, you'll definitely be getting the iterative penalties.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
My one, big, huge gripe is still the Vancian spellcasting. That needs to DIE IN A FREAKING FIRE. Make the prepared spellcasters Arcanist neo!Vancian casting, give the sorcerer etc more options, just finally freaking ditch ye olde terrible og!Vancian system that everyone hates. Then I really will be all on board, and will happily call this take on the cleric superior to the original.

I'll like to see this too, it will make more palatable the reduction in spells per day.

And for spontaneous casters I have always though the best approach is the 3.5 Erudite, if I designed spontaneous casters I'll remove the hard cap on spells known, instead they can learn new spells they encounter, gains new spells known each level, and have a limiting factor on the variety of spells they can cast per day, something like half your level + Cha modifier.


I'm liking a lot of stuff here. Glad to see that Ability score modifiers won't add to oodles of bonus spells. It does make playing a cleric focusing on Strength more appealing.

I also like how Turn Undead is a feat now that just does more cool stuff with channeling. Hopefully there's no more dumb table with 3 different things to track.


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GentleGiant wrote:

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!"

But, see here, there's this and this to consider and we haven't even seen...

"Didn't you hear me?!? The sky is falling!!!"

A simple way to prevent this sky-falling drama is to not tease us for 6 months with vague blog post which only teach us new/not obvious things every so often =P

Not a fan of how Paizo handled this whole issue. Either you give your audience cold hard facts with numbers, or everyone will start speculating over every little scrap of infos they get. And then, pessimist people will speculate the worst, while enthusiastic people will speculate the better. But most of the time, enthusiasts will just say "oh it's cool" and move on while pessimists will say "this is not cool" and keep speculating until they get enough data to ease their mind. And the more we have to wait for those datas, the more we grow restless, and the worse this drama becomes. Pessimists like me will probably still be pessimists until we get this PDF and can get to test it out. Sorry to all the enthusiasts out there.


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Nice preview overall, and I remain excited to try out the new edition. However, one note: We were asked if we're eager to try certain character ideas/builds out.

...We... don't really... have enough info to do a 'build.' Nowhere near enough. What I have in my head now are vague concepts; "Holy-magic-themed Sorc." "Sword and Magic wielding wandering scholar." "Polearm fighter who is fairly intelligent." I just don't have enough insight on PF2E to make builds for them, so they remain broad ideas.

I'd want a bit more info on the game system before I can share 'builds.'


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Catharsis wrote:
Which they are nerfing in PF2 for no good reason. :( I still don’t understand why easy access to CLW wands should be a problem rather than one of the foundations on which the game and adventure designs rely.

The problem as far as I can tell (and the thread I started wasn't exactly helpful at getting an answer although i stopped reading after page 3 or 4) is wands of cure light wounds. They seem quite happy for the heal sticks to still exist but instead want players to have to invest in ever growing resources in obtaining them. I wish they'd just provide financial incentive to take the higher level wands rather then punish them with resonance.


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Almarane wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!"

But, see here, there's this and this to consider and we haven't even seen...

"Didn't you hear me?!? The sky is falling!!!"

A simple way to prevent this sky-falling drama is to not tease us for 6 months with vague blog post which only teach us new/not obvious things every so often =P

Not a fan of how Paizo handled this whole issue. Either you give your audience cold hard facts with numbers, or everyone will start speculating over every little scrap of infos they get. And then, pessimist people will speculate the worst, while enthusiastic people will speculate the better. But most of the time, enthusiasts will just say "oh it's cool" and move on while pessimists will say "this is not cool" and keep speculating until they get enough data to ease their mind. And the more we have to wait for those datas, the more we grow restless, and the worse this drama becomes. Pessimists like me will probably still be pessimists until we get this PDF and can get to test it out. Sorry to all the enthusiasts out there.

I've mentioned this before as well. There are lots of times we're being teased by being told what an ability does using other keywords where we don't know what they mean, or been given incomplete information about an ability.

I understand starting to reveal details in here from a marketing standpoint, but that could also backfire. They obviously couldn't have kept this a secret up until release, especially considering they're demoing/selling it already, but I would have liked them to take a bit more time to think about everything you needed to know to understand X, where X was a blog topic, and make sure they jumped into all of that.

For example, describing early how character creation worked, at a broad level, would have probably been a good idea... If it is, in fact, this being awarded ability boosts based on choices along with some floating/open bonuses. Also, a general description of the ability scores and what they do...

You know, the order things will be laid out in the playtest book...


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I really don't see anything I like from this preview at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Almarane wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!"

But, see here, there's this and this to consider and we haven't even seen...

"Didn't you hear me?!? The sky is falling!!!"

A simple way to prevent this sky-falling drama is to not tease us for 6 months with vague blog post which only teach us new/not obvious things every so often =P

Not a fan of how Paizo handled this whole issue. Either you give your audience cold hard facts with numbers, or everyone will start speculating over every little scrap of info they get.

They're doing it this way so that they can print the books for those that want them. The other alternative is to not tell folk about it 'til just before GenCon and guess how many copies of the book to print. They have admitted that they are rubbish at guessing how many books to print.


Some things I like in this but the anathema really stands out to me. This is something I've always done for myself and highly encouraged in my groups. I never liked how all clerics had access to all spells or could mostly do whatever they want.


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Joe M. wrote:
Voss wrote:

Hmm. Mostly sounds good.

Except...

Ok, if powers are not spells, the power source should NOT be 'spell points.' Don't level-level-level this for no reason. Go with something general, like essence or focus.

Spell Blog wrote:
The powers are now treated as a special kind of spell and they are all cast using Spell Points.
They're getting rid of the whole "when is a spell like/supernatural ability like a spell and when is it not" mess. Spell like powers are just spells accessed a different way.

I think this is more confusing than spell-like ability. So there are certain spells that you cast with spell points, but (as far as I know) aren't actually spells you can prepare in your spell list. And your prepared spells aren't able to be cast with spell points (again, at least as far as I know). So they're spells that work differently then all other spells. Probably better to call them powers or whatever


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.

This seems to make sense with the heal/harm options basically being their own extra pool of spells. If they had the old level of spells in addition to that it probably would be just to much. Plus side it makes it a lot easier to figure out how many spells you have for each level without having to look it up every time you level.

Scarab Sages

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Which they are nerfing in PF2 for no good reason. :( I still don’t understand why easy access to CLW wands should be a problem rather than one of the foundations on which the game and adventure designs rely.
The problem as far as I can tell (and the thread I started wasn't exactly helpful at getting an answer although i stopped reading after page 3 or 4) is wands of cure light wounds. They seem quite happy for the heal sticks to still exist but instead want players to have to invest in ever growing resources in obtaining them. I wish they'd just provide financial incentive to take the higher level wands rather then punish them with resonance.

So they’ve done away with the need to spend the lion’s share of one’s fortune on boring +n magic items rather than on interesting stuff, but instead they now want us to spend those resource on simply staying alive? That’s pretty counterproductive.

Then again, I still have my hopes up for effective mundane healing, so we’ll see...


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MR. H wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, rebalancing the number of spell slots I see.

3 spells per level, stronger cantrips, inflated HP.

The recipe for the kind of 5e combats I don't like, without encounter powers from 4e to help prevent at-will spam.

Most buffs are effectively going to be encounter powers, without the benefit for being usable once/encounter.

Spell durations no longer scale will level.

Take Shield for example. They changed it to a cantrip with a 1 minutes duration, that takes an action each round to use.

I.e. It's an encounter power that requires a full round to set up and an action each round to use. - but the wizard can use it every single encounter, assuming he has nothing better to do, like actually help the party overcome the encounter.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It sounds good to me. I would say instead of doing away with feat choices a certain levels and instead boosting spell casting DCs, make it an option. I guess GMs could make it a home option if they don't do it in the game. Some players prefer pure support roles and don't do a lot of offensive casting. This would give them more options.


NielsenE wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
I like most of this. I was surprised to see that Channel Energy and Spell Points are not connected. I was expecting them to draw from the same pool. My knee-jerk reaction is "don't like!" because I thought the whole point of Spell Points was to get away from having to track several different resource pools. I'll wait to see how things play out at the table though.
Spell Points are used for abilities unique to their pool and to the class. The spells from channel are essentially more prepared spells per day.
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

I think this is exactly why the heal/harm spell feature is separate from spells and spell points. With the old ability of ditching memed spells to heal you could find yourself in situations where all you were doing is healing and never got to use your other abilities much. Same here if the heal/harm used spell points you would wind up banking them to use for healing and rarely be using them to use your connection powers that they are designed for which would not be that thematic for whatever god you are worshiping.

It also makes it if you really really want to focus on healing you can crank your charisma up and gain more free heals and since wis is not giving you direct bonuses to number of spells you could permit it to lag a bit behind charisma without crippling yourself.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
eddv wrote:
Biggest take away - Lamashtu, the mother of Monsters, is neutral now?

That seems an...odd takeaway from that post. Especially since Pharasma can only heal now.

My takeaway was that which of those you do was based on deity, not alignment. So Gorum or Ragathiel might be harm only despite not being Evil, while Pharasma is heal only despite being Neutral and Lamashtu gets to pick despite being Evil.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.

It sort of makes sense for Pharasma to only do healing primarily as the positive energy heal stuff seems to be your main anti undead tools as well which is something pharasma is all about. For her main enemies heals ARE harms.


Joe M. wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Thoughts on 10th level spells being locked behind feats.

People seem to be assuming that the only way to get 10th level spell slots is through feats. I'm guessing that 10th level spells are only given through feats (and you probably get to learn 2 with a feat), but you'll have the slots available so even without the feat you can heighten your spells to that slot.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that possibility.

I figured locking the world warping spells behind a feat makes sense given their power level, but it'd be silly to have the slots requiring a feat in order to be used.

This also implies that the heal spells from channel would be automatically heightened to 10th level as well, which is quite a big boost.


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Skerek wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
The inclusion of floating scores each step is clever. Means everybody can have 18 in their main stat, as long as it is not penalized by your ancestry. That make things like Elven fighters or halfling wizards more viable, as you are not "incentivized" to pick certain races for certain classes.

I like this too, but I'd like to see a way for races that have a penalty in a stat to be able to get to the 18 cap as well, perhaps if they are using the method Deadmanwalking proposed instead of the four +2s you get a single +4 with the caveat that it can't bring a stat above 18

It always bothered me that in PF1e some races were just better at being a certain class than others. A Dwarf sorcerer (baring the Empyreal bloodline) will never be as good as an Elven sorcerer and even worse compared to Halfling/Gnome.

I like some races to have a higher maximum than others. In PF1 Gnomes and Halflings top out CHA at 20 (at 1st level) while most other races top out at 18, and dwarves have a max of 16. In PF2, from what I can tell, it looks like 18 is the new max for races with a bonus and both races with penalties and ones with no bonus or penalties have a max of 16. This allows the races with bonuses to be actually superior in that stat, otherwise if everyone had the same ceiling, the bonus doesn't really mean much.

But the ability to cancel out the negative stat does help to make characters of odd race/class combination without being penalized more than just not taking a race with a bonus. So that Dwarf sorcerer /can/ be as good as the Elf (both starting at CHA 16), but is still out-performed by the Halfling and gnome ones. So it's now a more reasonable choice than it was in PF1.

Dark Archive

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So here's my thoughts.

* DC and Saves both add your level, which was kind of expected once I heard proficiency applied to both. This has the effect of creating a rift between high- and low-level creatures, so that Level 20 Wizard that shoots a Fireball into a crowd of peasants for being so bold as to throw stones at him has an incredibly high chance of dealing double damage and seriously ruining their day. It's far easier to critically fail if there's a level difference now.
* Confirmed that the free Heal/Harm uses also scale for free, which is just great.
* It seems to me that domain powers may be stronger on average than they used to be. They're slightly weaker than your best spells, you only get 1 to start, and you have to spend class feats on more domains and advanced powers instead of getting them as a baseline assumption. That leaves plenty of room for their power to be increased.
* The reduced number of spell slots is kind of offset by a combination of Cantrips, Powers, and Channel Heal/Harm uses, but we'll see how that balance is struck later. It's a bit early to be declaring this as a nerf when we have no context for the power of the enemies we'll be facing. If enemies are weaker in general or if our Cantrips and Powers replace the need to cast spells in many cases then our daily longevity will be fine.
* It's interesting that the positive/negative energy divide is based on deity rather than alignment now, and it really makes more sense. Pharasma for instance is a goddess of healing and life, and her domain over death is based on death being the inevitable end of life and her being the arbiter of souls post-mortem. It wouldn't make sense to grant negative energy, which is strongly tied to the undead that she's so vehemently opposed to.
* Metamagic adding to the casting time as a baseline limiter is something people have suggested for like forever so I'm not that surprised. What I did find interesting is that the language of the blog suggests that you are no longer required to prepare spells with the metamagic attached - you now seem to add it when you cast the spell, which is how spontaneous casters did it. This also implies heavily that they don't increase spell level anymore. I wonder if there are metamagic feats that add more actions for a more powerful benefit?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I wonder if they're going to do like Starfinder and give 4 stat boosts every 5 levels, with 16 and lower giving +2 and 17 and higher giving +1.
That would make it easier to boost Charisma for classes like clerics, monks, and paladins who need multiple good scores (or, at least, used to. Not sure now).
Also, I seem to remember reading cantrips will scale with level too. So casters won't feel useless when they burn thru their highest spells. Could be why the lessened amount of spell slots.


I hope you can still channel neg through your weapon as a feat. My cleric who uses a whip would be sad otherwise.

Scarab Sages

Well.

Some interresting things mixed with garbage. As usual.

I will work on my Houserule PF 1.5 this summer when I would have the full rules of PF 2.0 to uses the (few) good ideas for my own taste.


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Catharsis wrote:
\/\/arlok wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Blog Post wrote:
Every time you gain an even level, you get one more spell slot per day of your highest level of spells (so at 2nd level, a cleric has three 1st-level spells per day)

I have to admit, I had to reread this a few times. Spell levels are confusing since they don't really line up well with character/class levels.

I do like a lot of what's here though.

Which is why Spell Tier is a better term than Spell Level.

You don't have a player asking "why doesn't my 3rd level character get third level spells?"

I've never had anyone ask that in 40 years of gaming. Characters have levels. Spells have levels. It's a wild leap of logic that they should have the same numbers at the same time.

I’m third level. Why don’t I get three feats? About as sensible as that.

That said, I do think the word spell tier should be adopted.

To hearken back to what one other poster alluded to, Gary Gygax in the AD&D DMG had a discussion on the confusion of the terms "Level" used in multiple meanings. At the time, "level" was used for Character Level, Dungeon Level, Spell Level, and even "Monster Level" (meaning what rough tier of power the monster was, and on what dungeon "level" you would expect to most often find it.) So there was a temptation Gygax spoke of to use "Rank" for characters, "Order" for Monsters, and "Power" for spells, so that you could say a 9th Rank character encountered a 5th Order monster on the 4th Dungeon Level and Defeated him with a 3rd Power spell. However, I think he said the playtesters at the time considered that even more confusing than just using "Level" everwhere, so "Level" it was!

So there you have it -- 'Level' is re-used by customer demand -- for 1979's customers! :)


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Voss wrote:

Hmm. Mostly sounds good.

Except...

Ok, if powers are not spells, the power source should NOT be 'spell points.' Don't level-level-level this for no reason. Go with something general, like essence or focus.

Spell Blog wrote:
The powers are now treated as a special kind of spell and they are all cast using Spell Points.
They're getting rid of the whole "when is a spell like/supernatural ability like a spell and when is it not" mess. Spell like powers are just spells accessed a different way.
I think this is more confusing than spell-like ability. So there are certain spells that you cast with spell points, but (as far as I know) aren't actually spells you can prepare in your spell list. And your prepared spells aren't able to be cast with spell points (again, at least as far as I know). So they're spells that work differently then all other spells. Probably better to call them powers or whatever

Having them as spells does actually simplify and clarify a lot of things:

* What's the DC for my domain powers?
Same as your spell DC; they're spells

* Does my Spell Focus feat apply to my domain powers?
Yes, they're spells

* Can I use metamagic on my domain powers? Do I have to roll for spell resistance? What do I use for my attack rolls for melee/ranged attacks? Can they be counterspelled? Do they work in an antimagic field?
They function as spells in every way except they fall outside of your per/day prepared spell list.


Rules Artificer wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Voss wrote:

Hmm. Mostly sounds good.

Except...

Ok, if powers are not spells, the power source should NOT be 'spell points.' Don't level-level-level this for no reason. Go with something general, like essence or focus.

Spell Blog wrote:
The powers are now treated as a special kind of spell and they are all cast using Spell Points.
They're getting rid of the whole "when is a spell like/supernatural ability like a spell and when is it not" mess. Spell like powers are just spells accessed a different way.
I think this is more confusing than spell-like ability. So there are certain spells that you cast with spell points, but (as far as I know) aren't actually spells you can prepare in your spell list. And your prepared spells aren't able to be cast with spell points (again, at least as far as I know). So they're spells that work differently then all other spells. Probably better to call them powers or whatever

Having them as spells does actually simplify and clarify a lot of things:

* What's the DC for my domain powers?
Same as your spell DC; they're spells

* Does my Spell Focus feat apply to my domain powers?
Yes, they're spells

* Can I use metamagic on my domain powers? Do I have to roll for spell resistance? What do I use for my attack rolls for melee/ranged attacks? Can they be counterspelled? Do they work in an antimagic field?
They function as spells in every way except they fall outside of your per/day prepared spell list.

Yeap, it makes perfect design sense. Its going to be confusing out the gun until PF3 though. However, once folks grok it they will understand it and shouldnt need to keep getting clarification. Shouldnt...


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Joe M. wrote:

"Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! "

Simplified to Spell Points only to immediately complicate it again with 3+CHA abilities? I'm curious why.

Lots of great detail here, though! plenty to dig through

The only reason I can see for this is they want to make clerics put some points in Charisma. There would be some validity to Clerics needing to be charismatic to do what they do.

In game terms it's sort of forcing a 2nd primary stat on them.


JRutterbush wrote:
thflame wrote:
It seems like much of PF2's "customization" will be in the form of gutting our class abilities and selling them back to us as feats.
Which is fine, since they're also giving you a bunch of extra feats. This means that, if you want something close to the old Cleric, just buy it back with those bonus Class Feats. But if you don't, you have so many more options now. Just don't buy the things you don't want, and get something else instead. More options is better, period.

I think to some extent this was probably a wise way to go. Priests got a TON of stuff for their choice at level 1 but then had few other options past there as it was all baked in. And because it was baked in to your initial choices they could not really give you new stuff much later or the power levels would get crazy.

This way they are making the domain stuff and things to empower it more modular to let you fine tune your priest to the way you want them to play.

It also makes it a LOT easier with future expansions/books to add more options for priests without it just being yet another batch of domains that once you are past level 1 don't matter a lot to you as you can't generally do anything with them as you already made your choice.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
I like most of this. I was surprised to see that Channel Energy and Spell Points are not connected. I was expecting them to draw from the same pool. My knee-jerk reaction is "don't like!" because I thought the whole point of Spell Points was to get away from having to track several different resource pools. I'll wait to see how things play out at the table though.
Spell Points are used for abilities unique to their pool and to the class. The spells from channel are essentially more prepared spells per day.
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?

Indeed, we're eliminating the tyranny of forced (or pressured at least) conversion of the stuff you wanted into heals by giving you a bunch of free heals.

At the very high cost of having way less spell slot. It become the tyranny of filling those 3 slots with the 3 "best" spell of that level (or the heightened version of best spells of a lower level) and always use them.

It is not an exchange I like.

There is a real utility in having more than 3-4 spell for each spell level in the game?

Deranged Stabby-Man wrote:
Three spells per spell level, eh? I guess the better cantrips are justified as your "Magical Auto-Attack/Left Click" now, whereas your proper SPELLS are meant to be your "number key" abilities.

Truly, it feel terribly videogamy.

Logan Bonner wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
So this means the "why" could be something like: Clerics (or PC clerics at least) normally need a large pool of healing. We didn't want that healing to eat into their spells per day (or else they only prepare heals, or just end up spontaneously converting all their spells to cures). We also didn't want to combine their channel with their spell pool, so they don't feel guilty about using pool points for domain powers rather than channel?
This is essentially correct. We want the clerics to be able to cast things other than healing spells, which is what we found typically happened with spontaneous healing. We instead shifted to having multiple of your best heal spell instead. Now the pressure is instead on picking your spells at the start of the day, with the flexibility that you can prepare heal spells if you feel you need to. The pressure on preparing heal spells is still significant at low levels, but by the time you get higher-level spells, there's less and less reason to prepare weaker heal spells because utility spells are relatively much more powerful when compared to your channel heals.

My experience is that the less slot you have, the more standardized is your selection of spells.


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Ahlmzhad wrote:
Joe M. wrote:

"Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier! "

Simplified to Spell Points only to immediately complicate it again with 3+CHA abilities? I'm curious why.

Lots of great detail here, though! plenty to dig through

The only reason I can see for this is they want to make clerics put some points in Charisma. There would be some validity to Clerics needing to be charismatic to do what they do.

In game terms it's sort of forcing a 2nd primary stat on them.

That is the point. It's the same reason why your number of channels in PF1e already are based off of your charisma modifier.

PRD wrote:
A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

It's not a new concept nor mechanic.


QuidEst wrote:
Alyss Glimmerthorn wrote:

CONS

- what happened to domain spells? Does this mean now clerics of fire gods won’t be able to cast fireball, while travel clerics lose fly and dimension door. These little dips into other classes Spell lists have always been (for me) one of the most important flavour aspects of a cleric.
I believe there was actually specific mention of fire domain using fireballs somewhere. Sorry I don't remember the source, though, so don't take it as certain.

My guess is that you will simply add your domain spells to your cleric spell list.


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I love these blogs but i just cant wait till i can get ahold of my book and figure it all out.

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