Society Unchained

Removed a post and the responses to it. We get that changes to Organized Play are going to inevitably stir up some strong feelings, but don't direct that frustration at others in the conversation. Be cool to each other, please.

BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

Not really that suspicious. I've done it, other players I know have done it. I'm not even referring to just Pathfinder here.

Its not that uncommon for a new player to actually try to learn the game by themselves and make a new character in advance.

No books? No problem. There are plenty of websites out there that have the information you require to build your character.

Its entirely possible the person just spun the metaphorical "roulette" and decided "Hey summoner looks cool, I will try that." and then get told to convert their Summoner and Eidolon to the Unchained version.

This is just second-hand knowledge but it sounds like they nerfed the Eidolon and the Summoner. Which can be an annoying prospect for a new player to swap to a nerfed-version.

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?

good additions and changes that are good for the future of organized play

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

I believe the usual remedy is to keep the chronicle and update the character to legal status according to the guidelines based on what the character was when the change was announced.

We are not in the business of punishing honest mistakes. The erroneous table is in the past, so make sure the character is legal for future tables.

To be explicit, the character was not at 4XP by the cutoff, and should be updated to the Unchained Summoner or retrained to a new class. The erroneously ran table does not earn the character grandfathered status.

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?

Start complying with the rules as soon as you know them, make a reasonable effort to keep abreast of news, spread awareness of such news, be forgiving of any violations committed because of ignorance, but don't try to take advantage of them.

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

*raises hand* When I joined my first pathfinder campaign I asked if I could play the APG Playtest Summoner. So... it happens. Some people do their research before joining a game, and simply gravitate towards the classes that interest them the most.

GM Hills wrote:

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

LazarX wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

*raises hand* I had barely even touched pathfinder, and when I first joined a campaign I asked if I could play the APG Summoner Playtest. So... it happens. Some people do their research before joining a game, and simply gravitate towards the classes that interest them the most.

I think it's somewhat counter productive to suggest that people who pick out summoners as their first PFS character are doing something sketchy. Undeniably, APG summoner was a great class to choose to achieve an otherwise obscure or difficult to implement character concept.

I think on a whole the move towards the new eidolons will be healthier as far as ease of use and balance. And I also think a lot of this will blow over once the book comes out. It is unfortunate that new players are taking the brunt of the impact of this change though.

nogoodscallywag wrote:

Mark Stratton wrote:

9mm wrote:

Tell that to the first time pfser who walked away from my table last night when I explained what a blog post posted an hour before the start meant for his character.

If he was a first time PFSer, why couldn't he have just then changed it to the Unchained summoner (or rogue, or whatever his character was?)

I would have told the guy the changes but let him play anyway and fudge the report about him. I'd never turn away a first time player. Ever.

Be careful when speaking in absolutes. If a first time player shows up with a drow ranger or kobold fighter or some other race or class that isn't legal, please don't let him play with that character. Offer them a pregen if needed. But, you don't allow someone to play against the rules or spirit of OP just because they are a first time player. Also, please don't fudge reports.

I like the guy who last weekend showed up to play The Confirmation with a level 2 Catfolk...

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

GM Hills wrote:

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

I'm not seeing any posts where John or Mike say you could play the summoner until the 29th. I may have missed something. Do you have a cite?

pH unbalanced wrote:

You know, I'm a subscriber and so I have the PDF already. But it just occurred to me that the street date for the book isn't until 4/29. So shouldn't the deadline for making your decision to rebuild match up with that, since right now there are people who would like to get their hands on the book but can't?

Yeah, the absolute definition of a corner case, I know...

That makes a lot of sense. I will request the date be updated to reflect that.

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Question on summoners and the new April 29th date:

The blog post said "effective immediately" summoners from ACG were no longer legal. However, the date was then changed from "today" to April 29th.

Does this mean that pre-level 2 summoners from ACG can still be played until April 29th?

We have three tier 1-5 tables starting in 3 hours, and it would be nice to get a clarification before then.

It means no new summoners from ACG may be created the minute the blog went live.

Combination of those two posts would imply my aforementioned comments.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

GM Hills wrote:

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective Immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

Which means "oldschool" Summoner is effectively illegal unless grandfathered in.

However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class.

Meaning you are only exempt from the normal mandatory change if you have a Summoner with effectively 4 or more XP before the announcement went live.

Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

If you have three chronicles worth of experience but haven't played the Summoner to obtain a fourth chronicle sheet, you must as mandated remake your Summoner. As you are still technically within the "window of free rebuilding" as a 1st level would be.

Also just to point this out

Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

Which is some slippery slope logic there. As if that case could be made, then all 3rd party material for instance would follow suit.

Wow- all 4 classes will be PFS legal...

Why would anyone play the original core version of the classes from here on out?

They would play the original Monk if they wanted to be a Zen Archer. Or any other Monk archetype, really.

Nefreet wrote:

John Compton wrote:

pH unbalanced wrote:

it just occurred to me that the street date for the book isn't until 4/29. So shouldn't the deadline for making your decision to rebuild match up with that, since right now there are people who would like to get their hands on the book but can't?

Yeah, the absolute definition of a corner case, I know...

That makes a lot of sense. I will request the date be updated to reflect that.

Does that mean we have today and tomorrow to play a game with our existing Summoners?

I realize I'm a corner case, but I have a 6th level GM Blob that's fully statted out and built as a Summoner, and I like how he's built.

I don't know what's changing, but it sounds like quite a few options are being removed.

Yes and no

blog wrote:

Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

If you have an existing summoner, you could by the pending updated date play his again before deciding on the rebuild in two days. If you have a GM credit "blob," there is no way you could create an Advanced Player's Guide version to play, as that version has been made illegal immediately, no matter when the rebuild window begins.

There is also this post that says it, explicitly, that if you had a summoner that already had xp, you could play it until tomorrow. There was also a question about Play by posts, and John Compton responded that you would have to finish the PBP before worrying about where you fell. As did Mike Brock, by saying DO NOT REBUILD mid-PBP.

And while my previous statement was 'slippery-slope' I apologize for explicitly stating that a PFS legal character UP To this blog post. I thought, especially with that coming after Mike Brock's comment to the same ideas, that it went without saying. My bad for not clarifying.

GM Hills wrote:

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

GM Hills wrote:

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

Quote:

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective Immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

Which means "oldschool" Summoner is effectively illegal unless grandfathered in.

Quote:

However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to

...

My understanding of it, reading back through the thread, is this:

The minute the blog went live, all newly created summoners must be made according to the Unchained book.

Existing summoners that have been played at least one time at lvl 2 by April 29th are grandfathered in.

This means that if you have created a summoner last month and haven't played her at level 2 yet, you have until the street date of Unchained (Tomorrow) to play her past level 2. However, if you are building a summoner fresh and new, you have to use the Unchained rules.

This is the way I am understanding the thread.

Quick (odd) question. If I have a Ninja, does it qualify for the rebuild if I wanted to make it a (Non-Ninja) Unchained Rogue?

I know you cannot make an Unchained Ninja. But it is unclear if they qualify for the retrain.

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?

As always, I think we need to try to use common sense.

Terek wrote:

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

I believe the usual remedy is to keep the chronicle and update the character to legal status according to the guidelines based on what the character was when the change was announced.

We are not in the business of punishing honest mistakes. The erroneous table is in the past, so make sure the character is legal for future tables.

To be explicit, the character was not at 4XP by the cutoff, and should be updated to the Unchained Summoner or retrained to a new class. The erroneously ran table does not earn the character grandfathered status.

This.

TOZ wrote:

9mm wrote:

Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

Plenty of us expected a lack of grandfathering window after the results of the last one, and that the summoner would be very different from the APG.

9mm wrote:

If only those reasons followed a logic pattern that makes sense.

They most certainly do. You just don't know what the starting assumptions are.

I been silent on that subject for over six hours. First Worlder is just a "innocent in the crossfire" that got mashed into the others like Wild Caller (both Half-Elf and Plant varients) in addition to several others that altered the eidolon's baseform or type.

All we have left now is:

Evolutionist
Naturalist
Story Summoner...and Shaitan Binder.

Yet you need a chronicle sheet to play an Oread for a Binder.

Which means we can either play an Unchained Summoner now, or we can wait till around an expected early June in case there is a feat/archetype/trait/etc that might be worth the wait.

You can also still make a Shadow Caller if you have a Fetchling boon.

Does the Unchained Monk count as a "monk" for the purpose of all feats and magic items that refer to monks? (for example the feat that let's a monk apply non-monk levels towards his unarmed strike damage (that feat requires Still Mind so not sure if the new unchained monk still qualifies)

Also a note - i'm a subscriber but haven't yet gotten my copy - not sure how people have gotten physical copies yet but as a subscriber I am a little bit annoyed that I haven't gotten my copy delivered yet.

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

That loophole had already been plugged long ago.

wakedown wrote:

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

That loophole had already been plugged long ago.

Do you have a cite for that because I am pretty sure it is entirely untrue.

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

1) If your character is a summoner that has played at level 2+ at least once (3.5+ XP), that character qualifies to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide version of the class. If you want, you can convert the character to the unchained summoner at no cost.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase; it does not provide an additional couple days to squeeze in extra games in order to slip under the summoner grandfathering cutoff date.

4) If you accidentally played your summoner character after the cutoff date and did not know about this update, we acknowledge that mistakes happen. Keep the Chronicle sheet(s) you earned, but please apply any of the rebuilding necessary based on the state of your character when this blog went live on April 27th, 2015.

It takes an uncommon race boon but Samsrans are PFS legal (with the right boon) and have an alternative racial ability that would allow some Samsarans to take spells from any list (of the same type - divine or arcane) as their class.

I think there are a few other ways that I'm not remembering at the moment.

(Skald's Spell Keening specifies the lists you can take spells from - which don't include the Summoner)

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase

Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

Xallis and Navia wrote:

For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class.

I what way is the new summoner more flavourful? Effectively you now have a more straight jacketed Eidolon with pre chosen evolutions and a fairly small pool of optional choices. You could already do pretty much the same thing with the original version by picking similar evolutions. Nothing required you to choose a multi attacking pouncing quadraped it was just the most obvious mechanically effective melee combatant.

Let me start by saying, in my personal PFS experience, the Bloodthirsty Pouncebeast is practically an urban legend brought out by people who want some insane highballed optimized bar set to judge the class and it's disruptive capabilities. That said, I've come to accept it as more of a [smaller]slightly[/slight] exaggerated story with some unfortunate basis in truth that leaves a long lasting impression on people. (Especially martials who lost their spotlight time to what some would call an 'accessory' to another PC.) I could be wrong, YRMV, all that. Heck, I've come to believe a nice big 2hander on a high strength Humanoid Eidolon along with getting as much Reach as you can to be the most effective way to go when DR becomes a thing.

I'm willing to admit that I was privileged to play the APG Summoner. Navia wasn't always the best combatant on the field, but above any other PC she was able to implement the Monster Advantages, things like a high base natural armor to negate the need for defensive gear, always-on perfect flight when even Wizards and Witches could only do it for a few minutes per day, a number of no-penalty attacks that made TWF look like a practical joke in comparison, AND bonuses on the 3 key rogue skills (DD, Perception, Stealth) that no one but the most laser focused of PCs could compete with.

Not many agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that the +8 from the 1-point Skilled evolution made it the most unbalanced, overpowered tool in the kit, and the quickest route to invalidating other party members.

Losing that hurts, to say nothing of the early spell access. I'm willing to have a pair of characters who still add up to something amazing, but don't cover more or less every angle by themselves. I look forward to not holding Navia on a tight leash in combat for fear of looking like "That Guy." I'm okay with Evolution Points serving to diverge and accessorize an Eidolon, not to serve as the whole flesh and blood laid over a skeleton.

To be honest, we had this coming. I'm happy that the change was this gentle, and not something like an outright ban or a much more severe defanging. If nothing else, the Summoner might be Unchained from the negative stigma that surrounds them, and that change is as well deserved as the Rogue.

I fully admit that my own choice of gaming locations brought me into contact with an inordinate number of Bloodthirsty Pouncebeasts. Since settling in Phoenix I have encountered almost none.

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

note: I understand why you're doing this. I just don't think it's right.

You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

I think you're forgetting about a few other options they have:

1. Rebuild their character to something other than summoner.
2. Play a pregen and wait one day for unchained.
3. Play a different character and wait one day for unchained.
4. GM.

None of these involve booting that player out.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

I suppose one could see it as turning them away, but I don't agree with that view. Once it is explained, the choice fully rests with the player, who will either play something else or choose to walk away.

And, as a minor correction, a person with an APG summoner that has not been played at least once at second level or higher does not have a legal PFS character.

John Compton wrote:

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase

Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

No. Ninjas are a separate class.

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

John Compton wrote:

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

note: I understand why you're doing this. I just don't think it's right.

If I was the GM at that table, I would have covered them for that one session with. "Look, I've got my subscriber copy of UnChained right here. You can convert your summoner and play her tonight, with the understanding that you're going to obtain the PDF and/or the book for the next time out." I count that as within my power of Judge discretion to get a table off.

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

Here's a discussion thread.

Book goes live for non-subscribers tomorrow. I imagine it'll be on one of the SRDs by the end of the week or next week.

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

John Compton wrote:

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase

Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

No. Ninjas are a separate class.

Sorry, but since when? Can't ninjas take rogue archetypes? And don't rogue reference in items also apply to ninjas?

Woran wrote:

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

John Compton wrote:

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase

Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

No. Ninjas are a separate class.

Sorry, but since when? Can't ninjas take rogue archetypes? And don't rogue reference in items also apply to ninjas?

Ninjas are an alternate class to Rogues. Just like Samurai is to Cavalier, and Antipaladin is to Paladin.

Here's a relevant quote from page 8 of Ultimate Combat.

Alternate Classes

These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very
close to established base classes, yet whose required
alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In
this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically
Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in
concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin
from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.

They're standalone classes that are distinctly unique, and only have the caveat that they cannot multiclass into their originating class.

If the ruling was meant to apply to ninjas, it would have been enumerated in the blog post.

Edit: ninja'd with a better answer

Chess Pwn wrote:

"John Compton wrote:

The ninja is an alternate class and does not interact with the unchained rogue class. There are no "unchained ninjas" in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

ACG wrote:

Sometimes an archetype exchanges

so many class features that it almost becomes a new
class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a
representation of all of the class features, even those
that it shares with its base class. While still technically
an archetype, characters who play this class have all
the tools they need to advance their character in one
convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai
are all examples of an alternate class.

So this is saying that a ninja is just an archetype for Rogue. Now if you don't allow the ninja archetype to work with the unchained Rogue that's fine and I accept that decision, but I feel you can't just say that since it's an alternate class it can't work with the rogue changes while allowing rogue archetypes to work with the rogue changes.

Alternate classes play by their own rules. Otherwise, knight of the sepulcher wouldn't be able to exist, since it alters or replaces abilities that alter or replace paladin abilities.

(Edit: ninja'd too!)

Thank you for the references. Does that mean that Ninjas cannot take Rogue archetypes?

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it.

Play, Play, Play was removed from PFS many, many years ago.

People have suggested multiple options that would have allowed the player to play a legal character.

Thank you for the references. Does that mean that Ninjas cannot take Rogue archetypes?

The archype/alternate class thing spun off into its own thread.

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I sympathize. I was doing the exact same thing but only had 1 GM credit applied to the character.

I'm kinda disappointed only the new classes made it in. But I guess the rest was just too jarring. I was hoping the stamina system would make it in. And frankly I'm surprised that VMC didn't make it in.

Arrrgh!! My 9th level fighter chafes under the lack of stamina!! :(

Oh man.....

I've got both a monk and summoner. Am i glad they're both at lvl 2.2 (hitting 3 at the end of current session) and 3 respectively.

Save for the monk being the 4 winds archetype.

Has anyone looked at rebuilding a scroll scoundrel rogue into an unchained rogue? Do you lose danger sense in stead of trap sense? how does that work?

Given the skill unlocks, I am not sure the SS is still worth it.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

That's not how I interpret John Compton's post.

He could play his APG summoner before the 29th. But even if this was the first time that character had been played at level 2+, he would still have to rebuild to a new summoner - the play session wouldn't qualify for grandfathering in the APG summoner. He'd have to rebuild based on the state of his character at the moment the blog went live.

Playing the APG summoner's first session at level 2+ in that time window, though, would mean that they would no longer be able to take advantage of the first-level retrain rules; if they took a look at the Unchained summoner and decided they didn't want to switch to that class for any reason, they'd have to pay the cost of retraining.