Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
351 to 400 of 747 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community & Digital Content Director

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post and the responses to it. We get that changes to Organized Play are going to inevitably stir up some strong feelings, but don't direct that frustration at others in the conversation. Be cool to each other, please.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

Not really that suspicious. I've done it, other players I know have done it. I'm not even referring to just Pathfinder here.

Its not that uncommon for a new player to actually try to learn the game by themselves and make a new character in advance.

No books? No problem. There are plenty of websites out there that have the information you require to build your character.

Its entirely possible the person just spun the metaphorical "roulette" and decided "Hey summoner looks cool, I will try that." and then get told to convert their Summoner and Eidolon to the Unchained version.

This is just second-hand knowledge but it sounds like they nerfed the Eidolon and the Summoner. Which can be an annoying prospect for a new player to swap to a nerfed-version.

Grand Lodge 5/5

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

good additions and changes that are good for the future of organized play

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Terek wrote:
So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

I believe the usual remedy is to keep the chronicle and update the character to legal status according to the guidelines based on what the character was when the change was announced.

We are not in the business of punishing honest mistakes. The erroneous table is in the past, so make sure the character is legal for future tables.

To be explicit, the character was not at 4XP by the cutoff, and should be updated to the Unchained Summoner or retrained to a new class. The erroneously ran table does not earn the character grandfathered status.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Terek wrote:

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?

Start complying with the rules as soon as you know them, make a reasonable effort to keep abreast of news, spread awareness of such news, be forgiving of any violations committed because of ignorance, but don't try to take advantage of them.

4/5

Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
GM Hills wrote:
Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.

The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.


LazarX wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.

*raises hand* When I joined my first pathfinder campaign I asked if I could play the APG Playtest Summoner. So... it happens. Some people do their research before joining a game, and simply gravitate towards the classes that interest them the most.

4/5

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.
The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.

And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

Liberty's Edge

Matrix Dragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

First time PFS =! first time pathfinder.

I find it somewhat suspicious that a person who's claimed never to have played Pathfinder before, would ask for the Summoner for his first character.
*raises hand* I had barely even touched pathfinder, and when I first joined a campaign I asked if I could play the APG Summoner Playtest. So... it happens. Some people do their research before joining a game, and simply gravitate towards the classes that interest them the most.

I think it's somewhat counter productive to suggest that people who pick out summoners as their first PFS character are doing something sketchy. Undeniably, APG summoner was a great class to choose to achieve an otherwise obscure or difficult to implement character concept.

I think on a whole the move towards the new eidolons will be healthier as far as ease of use and balance. And I also think a lot of this will blow over once the book comes out. It is unfortunate that new players are taking the brunt of the impact of this change though.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Michael Brock wrote:
nogoodscallywag wrote:
Mark Stratton wrote:
9mm wrote:

Tell that to the first time pfser who walked away from my table last night when I explained what a blog post posted an hour before the start meant for his character.

If he was a first time PFSer, why couldn't he have just then changed it to the Unchained summoner (or rogue, or whatever his character was?)
I would have told the guy the changes but let him play anyway and fudge the report about him. I'd never turn away a first time player. Ever.
Be careful when speaking in absolutes. If a first time player shows up with a drow ranger or kobold fighter or some other race or class that isn't legal, please don't let him play with that character. Offer them a pregen if needed. But, you don't allow someone to play against the rules or spirit of OP just because they are a first time player. Also, please don't fudge reports.

I like the guy who last weekend showed up to play The Confirmation with a level 2 Catfolk...

5/5

GM Hills wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.
The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.
And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

I'm not seeing any posts where John or Mike say you could play the summoner until the 29th. I may have missed something. Do you have a cite?

4/5

John Compton wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

You know, I'm a subscriber and so I have the PDF already. But it just occurred to me that the street date for the book isn't until 4/29. So shouldn't the deadline for making your decision to rebuild match up with that, since right now there are people who would like to get their hands on the book but can't?

Yeah, the absolute definition of a corner case, I know...

That makes a lot of sense. I will request the date be updated to reflect that.
Michael Brock wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Question on summoners and the new April 29th date:

The blog post said "effective immediately" summoners from ACG were no longer legal. However, the date was then changed from "today" to April 29th.

Does this mean that pre-level 2 summoners from ACG can still be played until April 29th?

We have three tier 1-5 tables starting in 3 hours, and it would be nice to get a clarification before then.

It means no new summoners from ACG may be created the minute the blog went live.

Combination of those two posts would imply my aforementioned comments.


GM Hills wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.
The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.
And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.
Quote:
You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective Immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

Which means "oldschool" Summoner is effectively illegal unless grandfathered in.

Quote:
However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class.

Meaning you are only exempt from the normal mandatory change if you have a Summoner with effectively 4 or more XP before the announcement went live.

Quote:
Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

If you have three chronicles worth of experience but haven't played the Summoner to obtain a fourth chronicle sheet, you must as mandated remake your Summoner. As you are still technically within the "window of free rebuilding" as a 1st level would be.

Also just to point this out

GM Hills wrote:
Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.

Which is some slippery slope logic there. As if that case could be made, then all 3rd party material for instance would follow suit.

1/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nogoodscallywag wrote:

Wow- all 4 classes will be PFS legal...

Why would anyone play the original core version of the classes from here on out?

They would play the original Monk if they wanted to be a Zen Archer. Or any other Monk archetype, really.

4/5

John Compton wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
John Compton wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

it just occurred to me that the street date for the book isn't until 4/29. So shouldn't the deadline for making your decision to rebuild match up with that, since right now there are people who would like to get their hands on the book but can't?

Yeah, the absolute definition of a corner case, I know...

That makes a lot of sense. I will request the date be updated to reflect that.

Does that mean we have today and tomorrow to play a game with our existing Summoners?

I realize I'm a corner case, but I have a 6th level GM Blob that's fully statted out and built as a Summoner, and I like how he's built.

I don't know what's changing, but it sounds like quite a few options are being removed.

Yes and no

blog wrote:
Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.
If you have an existing summoner, you could by the pending updated date play his again before deciding on the rebuild in two days. If you have a GM credit "blob," there is no way you could create an Advanced Player's Guide version to play, as that version has been made illegal immediately, no matter when the rebuild window begins.

There is also this post that says it, explicitly, that if you had a summoner that already had xp, you could play it until tomorrow. There was also a question about Play by posts, and John Compton responded that you would have to finish the PBP before worrying about where you fell. As did Mike Brock, by saying DO NOT REBUILD mid-PBP.

And while my previous statement was 'slippery-slope' I apologize for explicitly stating that a PFS legal character UP To this blog post. I thought, especially with that coming after Mike Brock's comment to the same ideas, that it went without saying. My bad for not clarifying.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Witch Doctor wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
Witch Doctor, there have actually been several posts referring to and the blog itself has been updated concerning the date. It was adjusted to Wednesday, the 29th. If you were playing last night or tonight with a Summoner then, you could play APG Summoner. IF that still did not get you to 2.1 and having played post 2, then that isn't the concern here. There was only about an hour window when such a character could not be played and that was due to the fact that John put the wrong date in the blog.
The 29th thing is true for the free retrain, but the blog says "effective immediately" for the restriction of the summoner.
And then it is specified in the comments by John Compton and Mike Brock that: You can play the summoner until the 29th but not START a summoner. So if you had XP on a summoner, you could, in fact, play it. That said, the case of someone showing up and wanting to play one for the first time, a corner case for sure, was a situation where yes, they had to be told they could not play that particular character, but there are plenty of options they could have played or done. Or, if you really wanted to, the GM could have let them play it, knowing that afterwards they would have to rebuild it to play it again.
Quote:
You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective Immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

Which means "oldschool" Summoner is effectively illegal unless grandfathered in.

Quote:
However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to
...

My understanding of it, reading back through the thread, is this:

The minute the blog went live, all newly created summoners must be made according to the Unchained book.

Existing summoners that have been played at least one time at lvl 2 by April 29th are grandfathered in.

This means that if you have created a summoner last month and haven't played her at level 2 yet, you have until the street date of Unchained (Tomorrow) to play her past level 2. However, if you are building a summoner fresh and new, you have to use the Unchained rules.

This is the way I am understanding the thread.

Grand Lodge

Quick (odd) question. If I have a Ninja, does it qualify for the rebuild if I wanted to make it a (Non-Ninja) Unchained Rogue?

I know you cannot make an Unchained Ninja. But it is unclear if they qualify for the retrain.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Terek wrote:

So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

The PFS guide says that a GM is not expected to be familiar with every post but cannot ignore posts that he is made aware of?

As always, I think we need to try to use common sense.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Terek wrote:
So what do we do about games that GMs ran when they didn't know about these changes? Does the GM have to go back and retroactively remove a player's chronicle sheet because he didn't know about these rules the night he played the game and he played an APG summoner that didn't have 4 experience points?

I believe the usual remedy is to keep the chronicle and update the character to legal status according to the guidelines based on what the character was when the change was announced.

We are not in the business of punishing honest mistakes. The erroneous table is in the past, so make sure the character is legal for future tables.

To be explicit, the character was not at 4XP by the cutoff, and should be updated to the Unchained Summoner or retrained to a new class. The erroneously ran table does not earn the character grandfathered status.

This.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Witch Doctor wrote:
TOZ wrote:
9mm wrote:
Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

Plenty of us expected a lack of grandfathering window after the results of the last one, and that the summoner would be very different from the APG.

9mm wrote:
If only those reasons followed a logic pattern that makes sense.
They most certainly do. You just don't know what the starting assumptions are.

I been silent on that subject for over six hours. First Worlder is just a "innocent in the crossfire" that got mashed into the others like Wild Caller (both Half-Elf and Plant varients) in addition to several others that altered the eidolon's baseform or type.

All we have left now is:

Evolutionist
Naturalist
Story Summoner...and Shaitan Binder.

Yet you need a chronicle sheet to play an Oread for a Binder.

Which means we can either play an Unchained Summoner now, or we can wait till around an expected early June in case there is a feat/archetype/trait/etc that might be worth the wait.

You can also still make a Shadow Caller if you have a Fetchling boon.

4/5

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Does the Unchained Monk count as a "monk" for the purpose of all feats and magic items that refer to monks? (for example the feat that let's a monk apply non-monk levels towards his unarmed strike damage (that feat requires Still Mind so not sure if the new unchained monk still qualifies)

Also a note - i'm a subscriber but haven't yet gotten my copy - not sure how people have gotten physical copies yet but as a subscriber I am a little bit annoyed that I haven't gotten my copy delivered yet.

Shadow Lodge

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wakedown wrote:

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

That loophole had already been plugged long ago.

5/5

LazarX wrote:
wakedown wrote:

I haven't spotted anyone commenting on this on the thread and I've scanned most of it.

With the removal of the APG Summoner, I imagine all the various techniques that were employed where folks would obtain access to a spell via the APG Summoner's spell list early also are removed in PFS?

That loophole had already been plugged long ago.

Do you have a cite for that because I am pretty sure it is entirely untrue.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

14 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

1) If your character is a summoner that has played at level 2+ at least once (3.5+ XP), that character qualifies to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide version of the class. If you want, you can convert the character to the unchained summoner at no cost.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase; it does not provide an additional couple days to squeeze in extra games in order to slip under the summoner grandfathering cutoff date.

4) If you accidentally played your summoner character after the cutoff date and did not know about this update, we acknowledge that mistakes happen. Keep the Chronicle sheet(s) you earned, but please apply any of the rebuilding necessary based on the state of your character when this blog went live on April 27th, 2015.

4/5

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It takes an uncommon race boon but Samsrans are PFS legal (with the right boon) and have an alternative racial ability that would allow some Samsarans to take spells from any list (of the same type - divine or arcane) as their class.

I think there are a few other ways that I'm not remembering at the moment.

(Skald's Spell Keening specifies the lists you can take spells from - which don't include the Summoner)

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
John Compton wrote:


3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase

Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
andreww wrote:
Xallis and Navia wrote:
For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class.
I what way is the new summoner more flavourful? Effectively you now have a more straight jacketed Eidolon with pre chosen evolutions and a fairly small pool of optional choices. You could already do pretty much the same thing with the original version by picking similar evolutions. Nothing required you to choose a multi attacking pouncing quadraped it was just the most obvious mechanically effective melee combatant.

Let me start by saying, in my personal PFS experience, the Bloodthirsty Pouncebeast is practically an urban legend brought out by people who want some insane highballed optimized bar set to judge the class and it's disruptive capabilities. That said, I've come to accept it as more of a [smaller]slightly[/slight] exaggerated story with some unfortunate basis in truth that leaves a long lasting impression on people. (Especially martials who lost their spotlight time to what some would call an 'accessory' to another PC.) I could be wrong, YRMV, all that. Heck, I've come to believe a nice big 2hander on a high strength Humanoid Eidolon along with getting as much Reach as you can to be the most effective way to go when DR becomes a thing.

I'm willing to admit that I was privileged to play the APG Summoner. Navia wasn't always the best combatant on the field, but above any other PC she was able to implement the Monster Advantages, things like a high base natural armor to negate the need for defensive gear, always-on perfect flight when even Wizards and Witches could only do it for a few minutes per day, a number of no-penalty attacks that made TWF look like a practical joke in comparison, AND bonuses on the 3 key rogue skills (DD, Perception, Stealth) that no one but the most laser focused of PCs could compete with.

Not many agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that the +8 from the 1-point Skilled evolution made it the most unbalanced, overpowered tool in the kit, and the quickest route to invalidating other party members.

Losing that hurts, to say nothing of the early spell access. I'm willing to have a pair of characters who still add up to something amazing, but don't cover more or less every angle by themselves. I look forward to not holding Navia on a tight leash in combat for fear of looking like "That Guy." I'm okay with Evolution Points serving to diverge and accessorize an Eidolon, not to serve as the whole flesh and blood laid over a skeleton.

To be honest, we had this coming. I'm happy that the change was this gentle, and not something like an outright ban or a much more severe defanging. If nothing else, the Summoner might be Unchained from the negative stigma that surrounds them, and that change is as well deserved as the Rogue.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I fully admit that my own choice of gaming locations brought me into contact with an inordinate number of Bloodthirsty Pouncebeasts. Since settling in Phoenix I have encountered almost none.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
John Compton wrote:

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

note: I understand why you're doing this. I just don't think it's right.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Swiftbrook wrote:
You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

I think you're forgetting about a few other options they have:

1. Rebuild their character to something other than summoner.
2. Play a pregen and wait one day for unchained.
3. Play a different character and wait one day for unchained.
4. GM.

None of these involve booting that player out.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Swiftbrook wrote:

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

I suppose one could see it as turning them away, but I don't agree with that view. Once it is explained, the choice fully rests with the player, who will either play something else or choose to walk away.

How that situation resolves itself has a lot to do with the person who informs that player that his or her APG summoner is no longer legal for PFS play. I would hope that the local VOs or veterans will try to explain this to the player, encourage him or her to stick around and to try something else. And then, when Unchained hits the street, he or she can look at the Unchained summoner.

And, as a minor correction, a person with an APG summoner that has not been played at least once at second level or higher does not have a legal PFS character.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
John Compton wrote:


3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase
Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?

No. Ninjas are a separate class.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Swiftbrook wrote:
John Compton wrote:

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

note: I understand why you're doing this. I just don't think it's right.

If I was the GM at that table, I would have covered them for that one session with. "Look, I've got my subscriber copy of UnChained right here. You can convert your summoner and play her tonight, with the understanding that you're going to obtain the PDF and/or the book for the next time out." I count that as within my power of Judge discretion to get a table off.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Damanta wrote:

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

Here's a discussion thread.

Book goes live for non-subscribers tomorrow. I imagine it'll be on one of the SRDs by the end of the week or next week.

Grand Lodge

Woran wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
John Compton wrote:


3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase
Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?
No. Ninjas are a separate class.

Sorry, but since when? Can't ninjas take rogue archetypes? And don't rogue reference in items also apply to ninjas?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Woran wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
John Compton wrote:


3) If you have a barbarian, monk, rogue, or summoner character, the next time after April 29th that you play that character, you may choose to switch any levels of those classes to their respective unchained versions at no cost. This several-day delay in the rebuilding is to ensure that the rebuilding choice is not forced until the Pathfinder Unchained book is available for purchase
Does this point allow Ninjas to retrain into non-ninja Unchained Rogues?
No. Ninjas are a separate class.
Sorry, but since when? Can't ninjas take rogue archetypes? And don't rogue reference in items also apply to ninjas?

Ninjas are an alternate class to Rogues. Just like Samurai is to Cavalier, and Antipaladin is to Paladin.

Here's a relevant quote from page 8 of Ultimate Combat.

Quote:

Alternate Classes

These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very
close to established base classes, yet whose required
alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In
this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically
Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in
concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin
from Advanced Player’s Guide is also an alternate class.

They're standalone classes that are distinctly unique, and only have the caveat that they cannot multiclass into their originating class.

Sovereign Court

If the ruling was meant to apply to ninjas, it would have been enumerated in the blog post.

Edit: ninja'd with a better answer

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
"John Compton wrote:


The ninja is an alternate class and does not interact with the unchained rogue class. There are no "unchained ninjas" in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
ACG wrote:

Sometimes an archetype exchanges

so many class features that it almost becomes a new
class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a
representation of all of the class features, even those
that it shares with its base class. While still technically
an archetype, characters who play this class have all
the tools they need to advance their character in one
convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai
are all examples of an alternate class.
So this is saying that a ninja is just an archetype for Rogue. Now if you don't allow the ninja archetype to work with the unchained Rogue that's fine and I accept that decision, but I feel you can't just say that since it's an alternate class it can't work with the rogue changes while allowing rogue archetypes to work with the rogue changes.
Alternate classes play by their own rules. Otherwise, knight of the sepulcher wouldn't be able to exist, since it alters or replaces abilities that alter or replace paladin abilities.

(Edit: ninja'd too!)

Grand Lodge

Thank you for the references. Does that mean that Ninjas cannot take Rogue archetypes?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Swiftbrook wrote:


So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it.

Play, Play, Play was removed from PFS many, many years ago.

People have suggested multiple options that would have allowed the player to play a legal character.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Thank you for the references. Does that mean that Ninjas cannot take Rogue archetypes?

The archype/alternate class thing spun off into its own thread.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Damanta wrote:

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I sympathize. I was doing the exact same thing but only had 1 GM credit applied to the character.

Sovereign Court 3/5

claudekennilol wrote:
I'm kinda disappointed only the new classes made it in. But I guess the rest was just too jarring. I was hoping the stamina system would make it in. And frankly I'm surprised that VMC didn't make it in.

Arrrgh!! My 9th level fighter chafes under the lack of stamina!! :(

2/5

Oh man.....

I've got both a monk and summoner. Am i glad they're both at lvl 2.2 (hitting 3 at the end of current session) and 3 respectively.

Save for the monk being the 4 winds archetype.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Has anyone looked at rebuilding a scroll scoundrel rogue into an unchained rogue? Do you lose danger sense in stead of trap sense? how does that work?

Given the skill unlocks, I am not sure the SS is still worth it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Swiftbrook wrote:
So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

That's not how I interpret John Compton's post.

He could play his APG summoner before the 29th. But even if this was the first time that character had been played at level 2+, he would still have to rebuild to a new summoner - the play session wouldn't qualify for grandfathering in the APG summoner. He'd have to rebuild based on the state of his character at the moment the blog went live.

Playing the APG summoner's first session at level 2+ in that time window, though, would mean that they would no longer be able to take advantage of the first-level retrain rules; if they took a look at the Unchained summoner and decided they didn't want to switch to that class for any reason, they'd have to pay the cost of retraining.

351 to 400 of 747 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Paizo Blog: Society Unchained All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.