Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

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Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
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4/5

I haven't got a horse in this one either (other than a grandfathered summoner and a sohei monk I'm very happy with), but I'm with FLite on this one. It's a free rebuild for those with the appropriate classes. I'd rather not be such a scrooge about minimizing the opportunity for others to a point where I'm oppressive towards other people's fun and desires.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

But the real question is...

...can I rebuild my rouge into a rogue?

4/5 *

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Please go back and read the actual blog. It offers a limited rebuild, and specifies what you can rebuild. You can NOT rebuild ability scores, change feats unaffected by the unchained rules, or anything else. Yes, it rewards some builds more than others. My fighter doesn't get a rebuild at all, how unfair, I want to further optimize my build, rage quit.

The rule has been stated, and it is extremely geneours compared to other new books coming out. Abusing it will result in less generous rules next time, as the aasmiar marathon proved. A few people abused the rules and spoiled it for everyone. Don't by "the guy" in this case by abusing the rebuild rules, please.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hitokiriweasel wrote:
This might have already been answered, but can someone with a summoner with more than 4xp rebuild into an unchained summoner? I know there are players out there that have summoners but don't really know what they're doing with them

Yes you can. once you've done so, it's a one way trip.


So Summoner is the only class that you HAVE to use Unchained for?

If I wanted to make a rogue or monk I can still do so utilizing only the core book they came from, I wouldn't need Unchained is that correct :-)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

captain yesterday wrote:

So Summoner is the only class that you HAVE to use Unchained for?

If I wanted to make a rogue or monk I can still do so utilizing only the core book they came from, I wouldn't need Unchained is that correct :-)

Correct. And any Summoner with 4+ XP is grandfathered in with the old rules.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

gnoams wrote:
Correct. And any Summoner with 4+ XP is grandfathered in with the old rules.

The blog says that only APG summoners played at level 2 before the blog was released. With certain combinations of adventures played a character could still have up to 5xp, and not be eligible for grandfathering.

For example a character is played in two scenarios, and then the third game is a module. This would put them at 5xp, but since he did not play while at level 2. They would have to convert to the Unchained summoner according to the blog.

The Exchange 4/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Please go back and read the actual blog. It offers a limited rebuild, and specifies what you can rebuild. You can NOT rebuild ability scores, change feats unaffected by the unchained rules, or anything else. Yes, it rewards some builds more than others. My fighter doesn't get a rebuild at all, how unfair, I want to further optimize my build, rage quit.

The rule has been stated, and it is extremely geneours compared to other new books coming out. Abusing it will result in less generous rules next time, as the aasmiar marathon proved. A few people abused the rules and spoiled it for everyone. Don't by "the guy" in this case by abusing the rebuild rules, please.

its not a debate of what the are but if they are right. Simply put yes the rules have been abused before but if that is the reason why it should be accepted that if you want to change over to unchained that you should be punished for playing before it came out. Str rouges are being punished by the new DEX to damage and free finesse why should the player be stuck with a massive point sink that is no longer relevant.

Also the monk who now has to spend massive recourses just to activate his powers some of which never cost ki before also with the new drop in will saves hurting the non WIS primary stat crowd. Thing is yes people will abuse the rules but it is really punishing the ones who do not.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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GM Lamplighter wrote:
Please go back and read the actual blog. It offers a limited rebuild, and specifies what you can rebuild.

Yes, it is a limited rebuild. The rebuild is limited to those 4 classes. You cannot rebuild any levels from any other classes.

I'm not trying to be the guy. I'm trying to lay out what things are reasonable and should not be seen as taking advantage. I'm not tossing around rage quits, I am just putting things out there to be considered.

The Aasimar marathon was orders of magnitude beyond what I am doing, and done with the stated intention of flaunting the rules. I find the comparison somewhat insulting frankly.

Dark Archive 2/5

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blog wrote:
announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features.

This is the actual quote from the blog what can we see?

1)"allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost."
So only allowed to swap the four classes in unchained, check

2)"This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents"
I read this as all rage powers and rogue talents are wiped, reset to nothing and you can pick what you like from the new powers/talents offered.

3)"as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features"
Well because of point 2, which precedes this clause I happened to pick unchained talents/powers, class features which no longer work with the feats/items/options I had before so they no longer function properly, therefore I can change them, even though it was my choices in point 2 that caused the change.

What strikes me is that it seems that those most vociferous in opposing a more lenient attitude seem to be those who do not have any of the classes in question. In other words, 'I am unable to do a rebuild, so why should those who can be left off easy.'

I might be wrong, but who knows.

One thing though, unless there is an OFFICIAL ruling we can all say what we want on the boards, we have no official standing.

Scarab Sages 5/5

yah i kinda got shafted my summoner was lvl 3 using gm credit. now i cant play him, and the new 1 changed my concept drastically and made them pretty worthless as casters due to having a number of spells moved to higher lvls. i thought it made since for a summoner to get buff and travel spells a lil earlier than a wizard did since it was all they could cast. i think it is a sham for them to force this new summoner on people.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
drazt wrote:
yah i kinda got shafted my summoner was lvl 3 using gm credit. now i cant play him, and the new 1 changed my concept drastically and made them pretty worthless as casters due to having a number of spells moved to higher lvls. i thought it made since for a summoner to get buff and travel spells a lil earlier than a wizard did since it was all they could cast. i think it is a sham for them to force this new summoner on people.

Summoners aren't worthless as casters. They're simply not dominant as buffers in the way they used to be. But the spell list they have is still very good for their range of roles.

Seriously, if your entire worth was that Level 2 Haste, then you really need to rethink how you were playing that character.


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rknop wrote:

But the real question is...

...can I rebuild my rouge into a rogue?

No. But you can rebuild your Rouge into an Unchanged Rouge.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Gisher wrote:
rknop wrote:

But the real question is...

...can I rebuild my rouge into a rogue?

No. But you can rebuild your Rouge into an Unchanged Rouge.

only in France

Scarab Sages 5/5

more than just haste was adjusted, compare the list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
drazt wrote:
more than just haste was adjusted, compare the list.

Yes I know.. Summon Monster was adjusted and some buffs now wind up a level late instead of a level early. The Summoner is still a capable caster, just not a dominant one, and he should not be. It should also be noted that Summoner spells outside of the Core/APG list were not effected at all.

If the sole appeal of the prior Summoner was that he was easily a top dog character, then yes, this update has "ruined" it for you. But as a member of a balanced party, he still pulls his weight and then some.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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I would actually step out and make the claim that it wasn't Paizo arbitrarily scaling back the Summoner, but the high level of abuse by players, recorded via the organized play environment of PFS, that caused them to reevaluate the class.

It is, after all, the only non-Core class that received a rewrite. Personally I consider the Alchemist (and many Discoveries) to be more vague and problematic than the Summoner, but you don't see the same level of abuse by the playerbase.

If, every time you encountered an Alchemist, it had tentacles and vestigial arms and was trying multi-weapon fighting shenanigans, I can bet it would have been the non-Core class to appear in Unchained, and not the Summoner.

In other words, hate the player, not the game ;-)

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

I would actually step out and make the claim that it wasn't Paizo arbitrarily scaling back the Summoner, but the high level of abuse by players, recorded via the organized play environment of PFS, that caused them to reevaluate the class.

It is, after all, the only non-Core class that received a rewrite. Personally I consider the Alchemist (and many Discoveries) to be more vague and problematic than the Summoner, but you don't see the same level of abuse by the playerbase.

If, every time you encountered an Alchemist, it had tentacles and vestigial arms and was trying multi-weapon fighting shenanigans, I can bet it would have been the non-Core class to appear in Unchained, and not the Summoner.

In other words, hate the player, not the game ;-)

Yeah, but the Alchemist isn't hated by James Jacobs.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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unchained rouge is so overpowdered

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

I would actually step out and make the claim that it wasn't Paizo arbitrarily scaling back the Summoner, but the high level of abuse by players, recorded via the organized play environment of PFS, that caused them to reevaluate the class.

And you'd be exactly right. The APG Summoner still exists for home GM's to allow if they wish. But given that many home GM's DID ban the class long ago, maybe the Unchained! incarnation will cause them to open up games that had been previously closed.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
unchained rouge is so overpowdered

I Sea watt you did thare.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
unchained rouge is so overpowdered

And it was created without any animal testing!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I would actually step out and make the claim that it wasn't Paizo arbitrarily scaling back the Summoner, but the high level of abuse by players, recorded via the organized play environment of PFS, that caused them to reevaluate the class.

It is, after all, the only non-Core class that received a rewrite. Personally I consider the Alchemist (and many Discoveries) to be more vague and problematic than the Summoner, but you don't see the same level of abuse by the playerbase.

If, every time you encountered an Alchemist, it had tentacles and vestigial arms and was trying multi-weapon fighting shenanigans, I can bet it would have been the non-Core class to appear in Unchained, and not the Summoner.

In other words, hate the player, not the game ;-)

Yeah, but the Alchemist isn't hated by James Jacobs.

From what I've read here, Jacobs was far from the only home GM that hated this class above all others.

Grand Lodge 4/5

LazarX wrote:
From what I've read here, Jacobs was far from the only home GM that hated this class above all others.

Yeah, but the fact that he's the Creative Director at Paizo means his opinions probably held more weight.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Swiss Mercenary wrote:

What strikes me is that it seems that those most vociferous in opposing a more lenient attitude seem to be those who do not have any of the classes in question. In other words, 'I am unable to do a rebuild, so why should those who can be left off easy.'

I might be wrong, but who knows.

Well, assuming you count me as one of those speaking up for implementing the rebuild as written, rather than a more laissez-faire attitude, I know.

And yes, you are wrong. I've got four characters that could take advantage of the rebuild. One of them is my 14th-level character (my wife's 14th-level character is also eligible). That's for the whole 14 levels in each case, not just a single-level dip into one applicable class.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

I had a discussion with someone about the unchained book. The choice few comments are...

"There is so much they could have done instead of..."

"It didn't go far enough."

"Summoner was nerfed"

It wasn't just the Summoner he had a problem with, but the whole of the four classes and that the rest of the book was "useless" for PFS.

Particularly, the loss of Pounce was foremost in mind, as well as the spell realignment without the regular Spontaneous Caster progression. (spells are a level later than the Sorcerer)

Me, I mentioned the ease for which one chooses the Eidolon base and has room to build, but he called it a straight jacket.

I believe, despite this conversation, that the new UNCHAINED! Summoner is more likely to be built correctly than the APG Summoner. By a long way. This was the overall goal of the "nerf."

Grand Lodge 4/5

thaX wrote:
Particularly, the loss of Pounce was foremost in mind, as well as the spell realignment without the regular Spontaneous Caster progression. (spells are a level later than the Sorcerer)

Pounce wasn't lost, it was just pushed back a couple of levels.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I probably won't add Unchained to my collection in the near future.

The next Monk I want to build is a Sohei, so that section is useless.

My non-retired Barbarian is a Savage Technologist, so no use there.

I won't be doing a Summoner, after losing my GM credit blob.

And my Rogue is 15th level. Although I'm planning on playing him some more, he was my first character, and rebuilding him just doesn't feel right.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:

I probably won't add Unchained to my collection in the near future.

The next Monk I want to build is a Sohei, so that section is useless.

My non-retired Barbarian is a Savage Technologist, so no use there.

I won't be doing a Summoner, after losing my GM credit blob.

And my Rogue is 15th level. Although I'm planning on playing him some more, he was my first character, and rebuilding him just doesn't feel right.

Take a good look at the unchained rogue. You don't even need to rebuild anything. You just get free shadowstrike and a few other goodies.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
LazarX wrote:
From what I've read here, Jacobs was far from the only home GM that hated this class above all others.
Yeah, but the fact that he's the Creative Director at Paizo means his opinions probably held more weight.

Don't underestimate the impact of feedback from PFS players and GMs.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I probably won't add Unchained to my collection in the near future.

The next Monk I want to build is a Sohei, so that section is useless.

My non-retired Barbarian is a Savage Technologist, so no use there.

I won't be doing a Summoner, after losing my GM credit blob.

And my Rogue is 15th level. Although I'm planning on playing him some more, he was my first character, and rebuilding him just doesn't feel right.

Take a good look at the unchained rogue. You don't even need to rebuild anything. You just get free shadowstrike and a few other goodies.

My Issue with the Unchained Rogue is the lost of some really good Rogue Talents not reprinted in the Unchained book that you lose access to. If they open up those talents in the future I might rethink using it.

Though my Level 12 Rogue does not use any of those talents, He does not really gain enough to rebuild him and I don't play him enough.

Sovereign Court 5/5

i care less bout pounce, ive always hated the pounce concept to begin with, now spells like teleport isnt even usable in standard pfs for summonercause it was adjusted to 5th lvl which they do not get till lvl 13. may as well play a wizard for all my arcance characters as they get spells at a decent lvl range still. the issue is thier spell progression is so bad that the only way to make em useful to the party was to give em certain spells earlier so they got them at a useful lvl.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I am not a Monk fan so Won't be using that.

Barbarian is the same problem as the rogue with losing access to rage powers, but that is more dramatic because the barbarian Rage was changed more significantly then the Rogue class was so that is understandable. Many of the Rogue Talents not reprinted still work with the unchained rogue but that may not be the case with the barbarian.

I am not a Summoner fan but I do have one character idea for a Story Summoner that still works.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
unchained rouge is so overpowdered

Oh, nicely done.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Dragonmoon, what good rogue talents were left out?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is no mention in the blog of Summoner spells outside of those mentioned in the Unchained book. Has John or Mike talked about summoner spells from other sources?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

There are good rogue talents?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dragonmoon, what good rogue talents were left out?

Off the top of my head and one I wanted to use on my next Rogue is Bomber from Ranged Tactics. There are more I remember I wanted.

Edit: Another good one is Favored Terrain from Heroes of the Wild.

Edit: Hamstring Strike from Magical Marketplace is not bad thought the Level 10 Requirement is a bit high.

Edit: For some really nice flavor and not bad in itself I kind of like Harrow Strike from Harrow Handbook.

Edit: Sacred Sneak Attack is good from Champions of Purity if you are fighting a lot of DR good creatures.

Edit, Edit: never mind on the Favored Terrain, there is Terrain Mastery though they work slightly different, Favored Terrain can level up while Terrain Mastery does not.

Dark Archive 2/5

John Francis wrote:
Swiss Mercenary wrote:

What strikes me is that it seems that those most vociferous in opposing a more lenient attitude seem to be those who do not have any of the classes in question. In other words, 'I am unable to do a rebuild, so why should those who can be left off easy.'

I might be wrong, but who knows.

Well, assuming you count me as one of those speaking up for implementing the rebuild as written, rather than a more laissez-faire attitude, I know.

And yes, you are wrong. I've got four characters that could take advantage of the rebuild. One of them is my 14th-level character (my wife's 14th-level character is also eligible). That's for the whole 14 levels in each case, not just a single-level dip into one applicable class.

John, I was not pointing the finger at anyone.

Thing is that so far it seems that everyone you ask has a different answer, so until there is an official position as what you can an can not do it is not easy.
To me the blog is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways depending on your thought process.
As for me, well I LIKE my crossbow rogue and have done a rebuild to continue to use what he has (+1 Holy Corrosive Heavy Crossbow), but I did pose a scenario where you could rebuild into a close combat specialist and how, depending on your personal interpretation, you could change feats, items and other options.

Sovereign Court 3/5

I don't think all published talents are out. Just some of the core ones like offensive defense.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I don't think all published talents are out. Just some of the core ones like offensive defense.

From the blog:

Quote:
The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).


I'm very excited by the Unchained Rogue. That's saying something since the last time I played a Rogue, they were still called thieves. But I'm confused about how the Unchained Rogue multiclasses with other classes which grant the Classic Rogue abilities. As examples...

Unchained Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 10

The Unchained Rogue is limited to the Unchained list of Rogue Talents. As far as I can tell, the Rogue talents granted by Shadowdancer would be selected from the Classic list of Rogue Talents. Some talents, like Weapon Training, are worded exactly the same on both lists. If he selected the Unchained version as an Unchained Rogue, would he be able to select the Classic version later as a Shadowdancer? What about talents like Minor Magic that have the same name but different rules? Would this character be capable of having both versions? And if he acquired a Classic Rogue Talent, such as Offensive Defense, which is not on the Unchained Rogue Talent list, would he be able to apply this legally gained talent to his Unchained Rogue Sneak Attacks?

Unchained Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 6

Arcane Trickster requires 2d6 in Sneak Attack as a prerequisite. Unchained Rogue gets an ability called Sneak Attack, but regarding concealment it has different rules from Classic Sneak Attack. Does it still meet the prerequisite for entry into AT? If it does, then there is the stacking issue. AT grants Classic Sneak Attack damage that it says stacks with that from other classes. If this character used Sneak Attack against an opponent with partial concealment, would the damage dice from AT stack with the Unchained dice or would only the two Unchained dice get through? In other words would this character have one stacked Sneak Attack ability or would he actually have two entirely separate Sneak Attack abilities that were operating at the same time?

Any clarifications on these issues would be appreciated.


On one hand I like the unchained rogue as it gets boosted and the rogue also maintaining many if not all the archetypes. On the other hand, it also loses out on many talents.

On one hand I like the unchained monk as its more of a combat class than it was before. On the other hand, despite all of the unchained monk's bells/whistles/tassels, it also loses out on many of the archetypes as it basically is a class with no archetypes; even ninjas got more archetypes than the unchained monk when compared.

Barbarian is nice and is probably the best of the bunch although it does lose out on quiet a few rage powers and a few archetypes.

Summoner is just weak. I wouldn't touch it with a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 foot pole that can reach across planes.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Swiss Mercenary wrote:

Thing is that so far it seems that everyone you ask has a different answer, so until there is an official position as what you can an can not do it is not easy.

To me the blog is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways depending on your thought process.

Well, consider this (which is my interpretation of what I believe the official position to be, based on what I read in the blog).

There was absolutely no need to allow anyone to rebuild a rogue into an unchained rogue, a barbarian into an unchained barbarian, a monk into an unchained monk, or even a summoner into an unchained summoner. Paizo could have treated the unchained versions as totally new classes (subject to the limitation that you couldn't mix levels of the unchained and original class on the same character).

Paizo, however, decided to offer a free limited rebuild to allow people with existing characters to switch those character to the new class. The intent was not to allow for total rebuilds of the character - where a class feature/rogue talent/rage power/... carried over basically unchanged from the original and unchained versions, it could not be rebuilt. Where a capability was no longer offered for any reason (including being no longer needed because it had been subsumed into the new class) it could be replaced by anything the player chose, without paying any retraining cost such a change might normally incur. Players could also "sell back" at full cost weapon properties, etc., that had been rendered irrelevant by the changes to the class.

I see that as a pretty generous offer. Trying to stretch it even further, and build something that differs from the original character by more than the minimum required by the mechanics of the new class, is not justified.

The Exchange 4/5

John Francis wrote:


I see that as a pretty generous offer. Trying to stretch it even further, and build something that differs from the original character by more than the minimum required by the mechanics of the new class, is not justified.

I do think it was a generous offer but I also think that it is a unfair one seeing that the unchained version clearly support certain builds over others (dex rouge and high wis monk) while hurting the non-typical builds. so would a stat rebuild be out of the question for characters who switch to their unchained counterparts?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steven Lau wrote:


My Issue with the Unchained Rogue is the lost of some really good Rogue Talents not reprinted in the Unchained book that you lose access to. If they open up those talents in the future I might rethink using it.

I believe a couple of those talents are now baked into the class itself.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

countchocula wrote:
John Francis wrote:


I see that as a pretty generous offer. Trying to stretch it even further, and build something that differs from the original character by more than the minimum required by the mechanics of the new class, is not justified.

I do think it was a generous offer but I also think that it is a unfair one seeing that the unchained version clearly support certain builds over others (dex rouge and high wis monk) while hurting the non-typical builds. so would a stat rebuild be out of the question for characters who switch to their unchained counterparts?

Under the limited rebuild currently allowed by the blog post, yes.

If you want to petition Paizo to allow stat changes, you can certainly do that.

Personally, I don't think it's "unfair because it supports certain builds" - the reason those builds gain more from a rebuild is because the unchained version of the class works better for those builds. But that's intentional. I think of it more as the unchained classes removing an excessive cost that the original versions of the class were forced to pay. It's not so much giving an unfair reward as removing an unfair penalty.

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

LazarX wrote:
Steven Lau wrote:


My Issue with the Unchained Rogue is the lost of some really good Rogue Talents not reprinted in the Unchained book that you lose access to. If they open up those talents in the future I might rethink using it.

I believe a couple of those talents are now baked into the class itself.

Not for my seeker level rogue, he'd lose sacred sneak attack, Unarmed training, style master and wall crawling. I like the unchained classes, and my next rogue is going to be unchained, but I like my greataxe wielding dwarven fighter/rogue the way he is. *goes off singing "Spider-dwarf"*

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Tamec wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Steven Lau wrote:


My Issue with the Unchained Rogue is the lost of some really good Rogue Talents not reprinted in the Unchained book that you lose access to. If they open up those talents in the future I might rethink using it.

I believe a couple of those talents are now baked into the class itself.
Not for my seeker level rogue, he'd lose sacred sneak attack, Unarmed training, style master and wall crawling. I like the unchained classes, and my next rogue is going to be unchained, but I like my greataxe wielding dwarven fighter/rogue the way he is. *goes off singing "Spider-dwarf"*

It doesn't help with the others, but you can pick up Wall Crawler via the Ninja Trick Talent.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
Steven Lau wrote:


My Issue with the Unchained Rogue is the lost of some really good Rogue Talents not reprinted in the Unchained book that you lose access to. If they open up those talents in the future I might rethink using it.

I believe a couple of those talents are now baked into the class itself.

Yes. Some others have been changed into Skill Unlocks.

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