Society Unchained

I'm a hippy at heart and a technophile to boot. Paying $10 over cutting down trees for pulp for something that'll cost $40 is so much win for me.

This might have already been answered, but can someone with a summoner with more than 4xp rebuild into an unchained summoner? I know there are players out there that have summoners but don't really know what they're doing with them

It's in the blog itself.

APG Summoners played above 1st level may retrain.

APG Summoners never played above 1st level must retrain.

So, the additional resources have been partially updated to reflect the blog and release of unchained.

Will they be updated to incorporate the final 4 notes from the blog or should we keep referring people to this blog when they want to make characters with the unchained or is that something that's in the unchained book itself (in which case I withdraw this question :P).

I'm a hippy at heart and a technophile to boot. Paying $10 over cutting down trees for pulp for something that'll cost $40 is so much win for me.

Just to be clear, They do not cut down trees to make paper. It is economically infeasible. Paper is made from the byproducts of cutting trees into lumber.

There is an entire forest along the Gulf of Mexico that is grown for the sole purpose of toilet paper, though ;-)

It became a topic of discussion during Hurricane Katrina, because the forest had been recently felled, and wasn't there to provide a wind break.

Tsriel wrote:

I'm a hippy at heart and a technophile to boot. Paying $10 over cutting down trees for pulp for something that'll cost $40 is so much win for me.

Just to be clear, They do not cut down trees to make paper. It is economically infeasible. Paper is made from the byproducts of cutting trees into lumber.

Depends on where you are. There are forests (particularly down south) that are used just for paper. Apparently purpose grown pulp stands are about 1/6th of the source of paper

There is at least one PFS scenario where trees are cut down to make paper. That makes it RAW, right?

That scenario also ranks among one of the creepiest ever, for me.

Creepy, but also a gold-mine for great RP if you have the right group of players.

I played it as a Paladin who was *seriously* shaken by the whole thing, and when I GM'd it, the scenario ended with several PCs making voluntary alignment changes because of new insights they got from RP during it.

(plus one PC who will never look at Zarta the same again, ever lol)

Now I'm wondering what that scenario is...

It's a little talked about gem, that only recently got a GM discussion thread after 3 years or so.

Sounds like something I have to run. After subjecting my players to Gnome Opera, this will be even more fun.

Now I'm wondering what that scenario is...

I really want to know too.

So, I either didn't see this or failed a reading comprehension check, but can we pick up or drop archetypes when we rebuild? Can I go from Core rogue (swasbuckler) to a normal unchained rogue?

I believe that yes you can drop (or pick up if legal) archetypes when rebuilding, however don't forget to give back anything that the archetype gave you (and possibly rebuild those items - i.e. if an archetype gave you a weapon proficiency that the unchained rogue wouldn't have etc.

I'm considering rebuilding a few characters including an Urban Barbarian I have (not sure if I will with him or not - I like him to be DEX based, not sure if the unchained Barbarian supports a DEX based Barbarian - he's currently a Barbarian with an 8 STR - and a very high CHA (was intending to go Rage Prophet but not sure if the unchained barbarian supports that and have been debating options for him - may go Skald or Swashbuckler and will look at the unchained Rogue actually as it supports Dex based fighters really well). I also have a Zen Archer monk who will probably stay a Zen Archer (that would be a rather huge change to cease being a Zen Archer - though mechanically as monk / druid he might mechanically be better as the unchained monk)

not sure if the unchained Barbarian supports a DEX based Barbarian

Since the Unchained Barbarian's rage class feature adds its bonuses directly to melee attack and damage, I'd say it most certainly does support a Dex-based build, so long as we're not talking ranged combat.

was intending to go Rage Prophet but not sure if the unchained barbarian supports that

Unfortunately, Rage Prophet has the Moment of Clarity rage power as a prerequisite, and Pathfinder Unchained does not include an updated version of that power, nor does it include it on the list of "chained" rage powers you can select, so Unchained Rage Prophet is a no-go.

Mechanically probably similar to the Urban Barbarian adding rage bonus only to DEX with a build optimized for Dex (i.e. I was planning on taking Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and Fencing Grace to get Dex to damage with his rapier) - but while it will be functional in combat with a bonus to melee attack and damage the Unchained Barbarian would lose out on the flexibility of the Urban Barbarian (who could adjust his Rage bonus every time he raged - though that does require a LOT of on the fly math)

I just got the box from Paizo with my copy this evening, haven't had a chance to open it up and read it over - looking forward to reading all the classes carefully and deciding which (if any) I'll do rebuilds to for my PFS characters and what rules (if any) I'll use in my home games - likely a bunch

Rycaut wrote:

not sure if the unchained Barbarian supports a DEX based Barbarian

Since the Unchained Barbarian's rage class feature adds its bonuses directly to melee attack and damage, I'd say it most certainly does support a Dex-based build, so long as we're not talking ranged combat.

Rycaut wrote:

was intending to go Rage Prophet but not sure if the unchained barbarian supports that

Unfortunately, Rage Prophet has the Moment of Clarity rage power as a prerequisite, and Pathfinder Unchained does not include an updated version of that power, nor does it include it on the list of "chained" rage powers you can select, so Unchained Rage Prophet is a no-go.

They do have an updated moment of clarity, but it's called calm stance now, so wouldn't count raw for the prc.

I am a bit lost on the selling items bit, not sure what I can and can not sell. At the moment I am finding it very complicated to decide if an item qualifies for resale at full value, there are points that seem to be at the appreciation of the player and can be ambiguous.

I have a pure rogue and so I can rebuild all his levels, which means that all his abilities can change. He is a crossbow specialist, but I could rebuild him as a knife-man. If so would I be allowed to resell his magical crossbow at full resale value?

Would it not be easier and clearer just to say that all items linked to classes may be resold at full value?.

Also, what happens if the rebuild renders a character trait useless?

Suggestion: non-multiclassed characters can do a full rebuild into the unchained classes, but must keep attributes, race, alignment.

I was wondering about Rogue's Edge ability. It says that the Rogue gains the Skill Unlock ability. So how does choosing a Profession skill work with in regards to the Society?

I was wondering about Rogue's Edge ability. It says that the Rogue gains the Skill Unlock ability. So how does choosing a Profession skill work with in regards to the Society?

Can you quote "Rogue's Edge" or "Skill Unlock"?

That aside, PFS has no special limitations on the Profession skill. It can be used at the end of each session as a "Day Job", earning you extra gold between sessions.

Day Jobs are outlined in the Guide to Organized Play.

Theurge wrote:

I was wondering about Rogue's Edge ability. It says that the Rogue gains the Skill Unlock ability. So how does choosing a Profession skill work with in regards to the Society?

Can you quote "Rogue's Edge" or "Skill Unlock"?

That aside, PFS has no special limitations on the Profession skill. It can be used at the end of each session as a "Day Job", earning you extra gold between sessions.

Day Jobs are outlined in the Guide to Organized Play.

I think Theurge is asking how the Profession Skill Unlock, which I believe doubles income from the skill, interacts with PFS.

Sounds like it'd work similar to the Street Performer Bard ability.

Nefreet wrote:

Theurge wrote:

I was wondering about Rogue's Edge ability. It says that the Rogue gains the Skill Unlock ability. So how does choosing a Profession skill work with in regards to the Society?

Can you quote "Rogue's Edge" or "Skill Unlock"?

That aside, PFS has no special limitations on the Profession skill. It can be used at the end of each session as a "Day Job", earning you extra gold between sessions.

Day Jobs are outlined in the Guide to Organized Play.

I think Theurge is asking how the Profession Skill Unlock, which I believe doubles income from the skill, interacts with PFS.

sounds like the player should get this perk if he invests so heavily into Profession...

I'm wondering How a Core Campaign Coharacter can be built with Pathfinder Unchained. Since I have a player with a Monk and he's thinking about changing it to an Unchained monk.

Is Pathfinder Unchained usable for a PFS Core game?

Is Pathfinder Unchained usable for a PFS Core game?

No. The Core Campaign consists of the Core Rulebook, Guide to Organized Play, and the traits web enhancement. Pathfinder Unchained isn't on that list, and is therefore not legal for Core Campaign play.

From my understanding, rebuilds do not include feats, archetypes, ability scores, etc. UNLESS it's a feat that was incorporated into Unchained. This is not a complete rebuild, it is rebuilding the rogue levels only.

So, you can swap out weapon finesse, since now you get that for free. You can't swap out rapid reload for quick draw, though, because rapid reload did not change. So, you can't rebuild from a crossbowman into a knife fighter without paying the prestige costs.

Except that they specifically said that when you rebuild into unchained you could also rebuild anything rendered useless by the rebuild.

Basically, this is a fairly permissivie rebuild, and they are trusting us to act like adults and be reasonable about what we use it for. (One example given was allowing some one to sell back their Boon Smine weapon, and just transfer the Smine Boon to whatever they replace it with. Something that normally would not be permitted in a rebuild.)

I would probably say Shadow Strike is eligible for free retraining for Unchained rogues. Agree?

What is Smine?

Except that they specifically said that when you rebuild into unchained you could also rebuild anything rendered useless by the rebuild.

Emphasis mine, but I agree with you. Switching weapon feats would not be allowed. The "re-use the boon" thing makes sense, since it's a rare resource that isn't covered by the rebuild rules, but changing weapon focuses, etc. hardly qualifies and "rendered useless".

nightdeath wrote:

Is Pathfinder Unchained usable for a PFS Core game?

No. The Core Campaign consists of the Core Rulebook, Guide to Organized Play, and the traits web enhancement. Pathfinder Unchained isn't on that list, and is therefore not legal for Core Campaign play.

I thought so, will be telling my players that. Thanks.

What is Smine?

There is a scenario in Season 5 where Venture Captain Smine gives the mission. If you succeed in certain aspects, he gives a specific boon.

The scenario is

What Venture Captain Smine gives you is the following:

-- Steve

FLite wrote:

Except that they specifically said that when you rebuild into unchained you could also rebuild anything rendered useless by the rebuild.

Emphasis mine, but I agree with you. Switching weapon feats would not be allowed. The "re-use the boon" thing makes sense, since it's a rare resource that isn't covered by the rebuild rules, but changing weapon focuses, etc. hardly qualifies and "rendered useless".

That will teach me not to quote directly

as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features.

So the just said function properly. I think we can agree that if you rebuild your crossbow wielder into a knife fighter, crossbow feats are not going to function properly in your build.

For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free

note that raging vitality provides two benefits, a con bonus, and raging while unconscious.

The first one has zero effect. The second one is less useful than it was but still functions.

Further, they are excited, and they want us to be excited about this. So lets stick to the interpretation that makes this process fun and exciting. Not the one that bogs people down in minutia and makes them not want to play their characters because they are half built bodged together verisons of two systems.

Pardon me if this has been answered elsewhere, but can an Unchained Barbarian take Drunken Brute archetype, since the archetype doesn't exactly change Rage ability itself, but only makes a side mechanism for it?

FLite, my point is you can't rebuild your crossbow rogue into a knife rogue. All you can do is rebuild the rogue levels and replace any feats and gear which do not function properly as a result of the change in class.

"Limited rebuild" is the term used in the blog. If they meant something else, they would have said so. That can be plenty exciting (especially in the rogue's case, since it becomes so much cooler!) without also allowing rebuilding everything else.

We may have to disagree on this one. In the wake of a more difinative post, we just have completely different perspectives.

If you've applied some boons or one-shot, boon-like modifications to the gear, just apply those to whatever the replacement is. The free rebuild process is intended to facilitate trying something new without sacrificing earned benefits.

That sounds pretty wide open to me. It is limited in that you have to rebuild a chained class into an unchained class. But outside that it seems to be meant to be pretty generous and open.

What I really don't want is for this to turn into something where every change has to be run past Mike Brock or John Compton, as it will turn the whole thing into a headache for them and next time we won't get a free rebuild. So lets just let people rebuild what they want as long as they are not abusing it ridiculously, or in ways that harm the game. And then hopefully we won't have a repeat of the grandfathering debacle.

I think the "limited rebuild" should be expanded a little rouges got a new dex to damage mechanic, monk's ki now deplinishes at a rather alarming rate, and I'm still skimming the barbarian I think stats should be allowed to be touched up on as well

FLite, you cannot retrain into a different archetype. Just the levels of rogue and anything directly affected by the difference between core and unchained version.

I agree more with FLite, but rather than hash out the details of what a "limited rebuild" entails, let's handle this on the local level with approval based on a VO's call.

No reason to drag Mike or John into a micromanagement role.

For the record, I have no dog in this fight. I have no monks or thieves, my Barbarian has mechanical dependencies that would be hosed by the unchained version. My wife has a thief, but her only piece of gear greater than 100 gp is a mithral shirt, and she is really unlikely to change archtype since she chose it for flavor, not mechanics. (I think her first level feat may be weapon finesse, which is clearly replaced, and her second level talent gets replaced by her archtype.)

People are saying, "Let's do this", or, "let's do that", as if they themselves have the power to decide what the campaign should do. Mike and John have already given us the rules on the rebuild, and they pretty clearly are NOT "wide open", no matter how much you might want them to be.

Of course, no one will likely know if you break the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules are there.

We kind of do have that power.

On any particular matter where multiple reasonable interpretations exist, In the absence of a rule clarification from Mike Brock or John Compton, each player, table, chapter, whatever can follow any reasonable interpretation they want. Now, if Mike Brock steps in and says "your interpretation is wrong, then you have to stop. Or, for that matter, if locally a VO says "we aren't going to do it that way here" you have to abide by it (at least when you play there).

But short of that, as long as you are consistent in your interpretations (as opposed to applying them selectively) and not directly violating the rules, or making other players miserable (don't be a jerk) you are fine.

From my reading of the rebuild rules, I certainly wouldn't allow retraining a crossbow rogue into a knife rogue, or anything similar.

We've already been given quite a lot of leeway - allowing anything whose mechanics have been harmed by the change to be sold back at full price, allowing any enhancements that are now redundant also to be sold back at full price, and even allowing the transfer of unique named abilities to a different weapon. But I don't see anything that would justify changing a crossbow rogue into a knife rogue at no charge. The mechanics of the crossbow would continue to work for an unchained rogue just as they did for the original version.

A rogue (such as my wife's 14th level character) who is built for DEX-to-damage, and who wields an agile rapier as her primary weapon, would benefit from no longer having to take Weapon Finesse as a feat, and would be able to sell back the "agile" enchantment on her rapier. This would allow her to select a replacement feat, and potentially apply a different enhancement to the weapon (or spend the money regained on anything else she chose). But she wouldn't be able to go back and change her entire feat selection tree based on whatever new feat she chose, even if she now satisfied the prerequisites for a different choice of feat at a later level.

The intent is to avoid a situation where rebuilding into the new class severely hamstrings a character, not to allow a player carte blanche to decide they want to build a different variation of their character. If you can show that a simple one-for-one rebuild results in a compromised character, you are allowed to rebuild the parts that have been harmed, but only those parts, at the same total cost as what you would have incurred if the character had originally been built that way.

Come on, guys - don't abuse the generosity shown by campaign management! If we get people trying to take advantage of this, and slipping in unnecessary changes, we all know what the result will be - any future situation like this will have far more restrictive conditions attached.

I certainly don't want anyone abusing the rules. But I don't want to see abusing thrown around too lightly either.

Lets take a more concrete example. Character who doesn't want to invest the feats for Dex to damage under the old system, but he has built a backstab centric rogue. So he origionally split his starting points between str and dex. (for simplicity sake, lets assume he was using a rapier because it was cool and has a decent crit range.)

Certainly, str still functions just the same under his new build, but he does just as much damage using dex as strength, and if he was building the character today he would never take that much strength, because it doesn't get him anything he needs. (carrying capacity is handled by handy haversack, etc)

Would it be reasonable to sell back that a couple points of strength for an extra point of dex?

Would it be reasonable to sell back that a couple points of strength for an extra point of dex?

No. You can't change attribute scores.

Every time a new Player Companion comes out, there are new feats that will make some people wish those feats had been around earlier, as they are just what they would have wanted for one of their characters. But they aren't allowed to go back and rebuild the character to take advantage of that feat, which would have been every bit as reasonable.

Except that means that people who optimized for dex to damage get that optimization rebated, and get to spend the feats for free. While people who did not optimize for dex to damage do not. In other words, one build is rewarded disproportionately, Which seems unfair.

To state it anouther way, if you spent a feat to boost your damage, and that feat is now wasted, you get the feat back. If you spent money to boost your damage, and that money is now wasted, you get that back. If you spent attribute points to boost your damage, and that attribute points are now wasted, you don't get them back.

I'm not saying you should be able too swap things freely, but I feel like there could be a point where limited shifting of attributes would not be abusive, and would be in the theme of "hey, we made the class better, in doing it we eliminated the need for some of the work arounds. If you were using a work around, you can take it back and do over."

FLite wrote:

Would it be reasonable to sell back that a couple points of strength for an extra point of dex?

No. You can't change attribute scores.

Every time a new Player Companion comes out, there are new feats that will make some people wish those feats had been around earlier, as they are just what they would have wanted for one of their characters. But they aren't allowed to go back and rebuild the character to take advantage of that feat, which would have been every bit as reasonable.

But that is just exactly what this whole rebuild is: "Hey, there is a new class structure. If you wish it had been around earlier, you can go back and rebuild you character to take advantage of it."