Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

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Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
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Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

Nefreet wrote:
John Compton wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

it just occurred to me that the street date for the book isn't until 4/29. So shouldn't the deadline for making your decision to rebuild match up with that, since right now there are people who would like to get their hands on the book but can't?

Yeah, the absolute definition of a corner case, I know...

That makes a lot of sense. I will request the date be updated to reflect that.

Does that mean we have today and tomorrow to play a game with our existing Summoners?

I realize I'm a corner case, but I have a 6th level GM Blob that's fully statted out and built as a Summoner, and I like how he's built.

I don't know what's changing, but it sounds like quite a few options are being removed.

Yes and no

blog wrote:
Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement.

If you have an existing summoner, you could by the pending updated date play his again before deciding on the rebuild in two days. If you have a GM credit "blob," there is no way you could create an Advanced Player's Guide version to play, as that version has been made illegal immediately, no matter when the rebuild window begins.

4/5

Carlos Robledo wrote:

The only question I can see with ninja being legit is:

Can I multiclass Ninja and unchained rogue? (which I'd still think no?)

Blog wrote:
"These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

You can't mix and match original classes and the new unchained versions, so I'd imagine that would extend to alternative classes and archetypes the same.

4/5

Will the Rage Prophet (in particular) be revisited to work with the Unchained Barbarian?

(and if you could also look at whether it should work with the Urban Barbarian as well that would be amazingly cool - seems silly for the Urban Barbarian to take Moment of Clarity to qualify for Rage Prophet - but it makes using the Rage Prophet abilities harder to adjudicate - and that's a topic for another post)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

John Compton wrote:
If you have an existing summoner, you could by the pending updated date play his again before deciding on the rebuild in two days. If you have a GM credit "blob," there is no way you could create an Advanced Player's Guide version to play, as that version has been made illegal immediately, no matter when the rebuild window begins.

Got it.

I really hope I can still pull off the same build =\

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

Oh, very nice! Might actually make a summoner now :)

4/5

*applauds*

I haven't picked up the book yet, so I have a modicrum of reservation. However, I approve at least with what has been made available from a PFS standpoint. I'll have to pick up the book soon to examine in full detail.

The only change I'm more curious about is the immediate switch of the Summoner class. I happen to have one at level 3, so I'm not required to change it. (lol, its now a tiefling summoner, the original version of the class, two things no longer available in PFS. Talk about rare indeed.) Still, I'm eager to take a look at it and see if I want to switch over to the new one anyway.

Oh, and I finally might make a rogue in PFS. ^_^

Sovereign Court 2/5

Chess Pwn wrote:


Having an archetype for an archetype is something fine for Paizo to do. Nothing says you can't apply an archetype for an archetype. Thus the Knight of the sepulcher changing the archetype of anti-paladin doesn't break any rules of overlapping archetypes.

Except for the rule that says you can't take two archetypes that modify the same class feature. If the Anti Paladin was indeed an super-archetype rather than an alternate class, then the example provided by Mark simply could not exist because it modifies Paladin class features modified by the Anti Paladin "super archetype".

It's probably better to just take the ruling as a clarification that the alternate classes are not being considered as archetypes compatible with the unchained classes rather than poke at the weird wording in the ACG.

Shadow Lodge

Unchained Barbarians lack the Ex-Barbarian line, does this mean a lawful Unchained Barbarian can still rage?

3/5

Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:


Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.
Okay, does this mean that the Unchained Rogue can use Rogue talents found in the APG such as Offensive Defense and Guileful Polyglot? Because in the original post, it sounded like Unchained Rogues can only use the Rogue Talents specifically called out in Unchained. I'm in the middle of doing a test build on my 12th level rogue to see what she looks like Unchained, and those above talents are two that I've taken and was wondering if I had to change.

I can't see a version of either listed talent in the unchained book, and they're not listed in the sidebar. So that means you can't take them with the unchained rogue.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rycaut wrote:

If you take a class or prestige class that has rage features (Skald for example or Ulfen Guard) how would that work with an unchained Barbarian? (assuming multi classed with Skald or heading into the prestige class with Rage Prophet or Ulfen Guard?0

(I have an urban barbarian PFS character who I was planning on going Skald with - now i have to see if I want to rebuild him as the unchained barbarian)

The Pathfinder Design Team has been kind enough to write a quick FAQ regarding this issue.

4/5 ***

John Compton wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:


Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.
Okay, does this mean that the Unchained Rogue can use Rogue talents found in the APG such as Offensive Defense and Guileful Polyglot? Because in the original post, it sounded like Unchained Rogues can only use the Rogue Talents specifically called out in Unchained. I'm in the middle of doing a test build on my 12th level rogue to see what she looks like Unchained, and those above talents are two that I've taken and was wondering if I had to change.
I'm pretty sure they've been reprinted in a slightly alternate form in unchained.
Yes, I was a bit hasty in my summation. A few rogue talents from hardcover books are not reprinted in the unchained rogue write-up or have already been folded into other class features. For example, the offensive defense rogue talent is now replicated in part through the debilitating strike class feature that unchained rogues get for free.

Sorry for still being unclear, but are rogue talents in other hardcovers like guileful polyglot legal or not legal for unchained rogue? My linguist rogue really likes her 4 bonus languages, and this may impact whether I rebuild.

The Exchange 4/5

hello can we expand the rebuild to include stat buy and race also I have a monk\paladin\oracle\ CoI that I really want to play unchained but will be unable to due to the movement of still mind for later levels can I get some kind of rebuild or am I meh.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
John Compton wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:


Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.
Okay, does this mean that the Unchained Rogue can use Rogue talents found in the APG such as Offensive Defense and Guileful Polyglot? Because in the original post, it sounded like Unchained Rogues can only use the Rogue Talents specifically called out in Unchained. I'm in the middle of doing a test build on my 12th level rogue to see what she looks like Unchained, and those above talents are two that I've taken and was wondering if I had to change.
I'm pretty sure they've been reprinted in a slightly alternate form in unchained.
Yes, I was a bit hasty in my summation. A few rogue talents from hardcover books are not reprinted in the unchained rogue write-up or have already been folded into other class features. For example, the offensive defense rogue talent is now replicated in part through the debilitating strike class feature that unchained rogues get for free.

Okay, that means I get three basic Rogue Talents to retrain (Guileful Polyglot, Offensive Defense, and Finesse Rogue) as well as a new rogue talent to select (I hit lvl 12 recently, so I have to advance my character anyway). I also get to retrain a feat (Extra Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense).

I also get 12000 gold back for selling back Agile on two different daggers (Technically, I'm selling back an Agile Adamantine Dagger +1 and an Agile Mithral Dagger +1, but then buying the base daggers back without the Agile property).

Cool. This is going to be fun!

4/5 Designer

Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:


Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.
Okay, does this mean that the Unchained Rogue can use Rogue talents found in the APG such as Offensive Defense and Guileful Polyglot? Because in the original post, it sounded like Unchained Rogues can only use the Rogue Talents specifically called out in Unchained. I'm in the middle of doing a test build on my 12th level rogue to see what she looks like Unchained, and those above talents are two that I've taken and was wondering if I had to change.
I'm pretty sure they've been reprinted in a slightly alternate form in unchained.
Yes, I was a bit hasty in my summation. A few rogue talents from hardcover books are not reprinted in the unchained rogue write-up or have already been folded into other class features. For example, the offensive defense rogue talent is now replicated in part through the debilitating strike class feature that unchained rogues get for free.

Okay, that means I get three basic Rogue Talents to retrain (Guileful Polyglot, Offensive Defense, and Finesse Rogue) as well as a new rogue talent to select (I hit lvl 12 recently, so I have to advance my character anyway). I also get to retrain a feat (Extra Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense).

I also get 12000 gold back for selling back Agile on two different daggers (Technically, I'm selling back an Agile Adamantine Dagger +1 and an Agile Mithral Dagger +1, but then buying the base daggers back without the Agile property).

Cool. This is going to be fun!

We on the design team are delighted to give you so many of the things you wanted for free now! Hope you enjoy picking brand new talents (and maybe some you overlooked before that are stronger now).

Scarab Sages

Just to make sure,

Quote:
Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 27, 2015.

This should now be the 29th correct? Since non-subscribers have no way of updating before that? I know that I'm supposed to be playing one of my monks tonight, but only know a little about the changes.

Scarab Sages

John Compton wrote:
The Pathfinder Design Team has been kind enough to write a quick FAQ regarding this issue.

Looks like the FAQ linked isn't live yet!

4/5 Designer

14 people marked this as a favorite.
doktorJung wrote:
John Compton wrote:


The Pathfinder Design Team has been kind enough to write a quick FAQ regarding this issue.
Looks like the FAQ linked isn't live yet!

Try again. I have altered the text of John's link. Pray I do not alter it further.

Liberty's Edge

I like the adoption of the classes. I do see a few talents / rage powers that players will miss. Actually, I might roll a summoner now as well. The class feels more flavorful now.

3/5

So, to make sure I'm following...

If I have an Oread Summoner with the Shaitan Binder Archtype who has not yet been played at 2nd level.

I can no longer play them as a APG Summoner because they've not been played at 2nd level.

I cannot convert them to an Unchained Summoner because their archtype modifies the "base form" of the Eidolon.

... so, they're effectively completely non-viable as a character now, right?

-TimD

Silver Crusade

Finally, Summoner put where it BELONGS. Shame about the VMC though. hope to see something about that later though. VERY Nice Choice on the Magic Items being only in Chronicles/Boons. For now anyways. Weird about the date restriction. I can understand your trying to limit Build abuse but I have a Game Running tomorrow and there is a Rogue who will not like being able to play because he doesnt have the Source book yet.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
John Compton wrote:
Rycaut wrote:

If you take a class or prestige class that has rage features (Skald for example or Ulfen Guard) how would that work with an unchained Barbarian? (assuming multi classed with Skald or heading into the prestige class with Rage Prophet or Ulfen Guard?0

(I have an urban barbarian PFS character who I was planning on going Skald with - now i have to see if I want to rebuild him as the unchained barbarian)

The Pathfinder Design Team has been kind enough to write a quick FAQ regarding this issue.

I don't think the FAQ answers the question he's asking (also your link doesn't work, I fixed it).

Let's put it this way, Skald says that they can use Skald Rage powers when raging, does this mean that an Unchained Barbarian/Skald multiclass can benefit from rage powers that the Unchained Barbarian cannot actually get (such as Moment of Clarity) while using Unchained Rage?

Additionally, certain Prestige Classes, such as Ulfen Guard, refer to the barbarian's rage ability and say that their rounds stack, if an Unchained Barbarian/Ulfen Guard rages, does it use unchained rage? or can it choose between unchained rage and normal rage each time it rages, keeping in mind that the pool of rage rounds stack (Ulfen Guard says so)? Additionally, Ulfen Guard isn't restricted to the Unchained rage powers, so can an Unchained Barbarian/Ulfen Guard benefit from non-unchained rage powers while using Unchained rage?

1/5

fixed link

Dark Archive 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
TimD wrote:

So, to make sure I'm following...

If I have an Oread Summoner with the Shaitan Binder Archtype who has not yet been played at 2nd level.

I can no longer play them as a APG Summoner because they've not been played at 2nd level.

I cannot convert them to an Unchained Summoner because their archtype modifies the "base form" of the Eidolon.

... so, they're effectively completely non-viable as a character now, right?

-TimD

As I understand it, you could still play an Oread Summoner, but not the Shaitan Binder Archetype, and you could convert to the Unchained Summoner the same as if you had used the rebuild rules from the Guide to Organized Play.

4/5 *

Bryce Kineman wrote:
I can understand your trying to limit Build abuse but I have a Game Running tomorrow and there is a Rogue who will not like being able to play because he doesnt have the Source book yet.

He can play before the 29th (without rebuilding) without an issue; John updated the date.

4/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Bryce Kineman wrote:
I can understand your trying to limit Build abuse but I have a Game Running tomorrow and there is a Rogue who will not like being able to play because he doesnt have the Source book yet.
He can play before the 29th (without rebuilding) without an issue; John updated the date.

I'd be shocked if the new summoner doesn't have an elemental eidolon option that does what your looking for, and probably do it better than you're imagining for your current Shaitan Binder.

4/5

Dylos summarizes my question better than I wrote it initially - I'm curious how levels that have stacking effects for Rage will work with the new Unchained Barbarian for stuff such as choosing rage powers etc.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
David_Bross wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Bryce Kineman wrote:
I can understand your trying to limit Build abuse but I have a Game Running tomorrow and there is a Rogue who will not like being able to play because he doesnt have the Source book yet.
He can play before the 29th (without rebuilding) without an issue; John updated the date.
I'd be shocked if the new summoner doesn't have an elemental eidolon option that does what your looking for, and probably do it better than you're imagining for your current Shaitan Binder.

Elemental is on the list of new Eidolon types...

1/5

I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(

1/5

Acedio wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Having an archetype for an archetype is something fine for Paizo to do. Nothing says you can't apply an archetype for an archetype. Thus the Knight of the sepulcher changing the archetype of anti-paladin doesn't break any rules of overlapping archetypes.

Except for the rule that says you can't take two archetypes that modify the same class feature. If the Anti Paladin was indeed an super-archetype rather than an alternate class, then the example provided by Mark simply could not exist because it modifies Paladin class features modified by the Anti Paladin "super archetype".

It's probably better to just take the ruling as a clarification that the alternate classes are not being considered as archetypes compatible with the unchained classes rather than poke at the weird wording in the ACG.

You aren't taking two archetypes for paladin, you're taking an archetype for the archetype. Thus changing what the first archetype is changing. In this case you have the sepulcher archetype changing what the anti-paladin archetype is changing of the paladin. I'm fine accepting the ruling that Alternate class archetypes aren't compatible with unchained, just as the Master of Many Styles Monk and weapon master monk are still valid with the unchained monk but apparently aren't allowed. But the knight of the sepulcher has to be legal because it is legal, and yet anti-paladin is technically an archetype for paladin. And the Knight of the sepulcher is a valid archetype for anti-paladin thing to be. Thus it's saying it's an archetype for an archetype.

Also I hardly feel the AGC saying that an "alternate class is technically an archetype" is weird. It's not like it's twisting the meaning or misconstruing what is being said. It's literally saying that an alternate class is technically an archetype for the base class.

If the ACG wasn't an official hardcover, or if the wording wasn't so clear I feel this wouldn't be such an issue. But with things as they are I feel a Designer unofficially saying something on the boards doesn't change the official text of the ACG saying that alternate classes are archetypes. (Though the ERRATA for the ACG could be a good time to change it and clarify the actual rule.)

5/5 *

Nohwear wrote:
I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(

You could make a Protean eidolon with the unchained one... proteans can kinda look like anything since they are the essence of chaos...

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dylos wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Rycaut wrote:

If you take a class or prestige class that has rage features (Skald for example or Ulfen Guard) how would that work with an unchained Barbarian? (assuming multi classed with Skald or heading into the prestige class with Rage Prophet or Ulfen Guard?0

(I have an urban barbarian PFS character who I was planning on going Skald with - now i have to see if I want to rebuild him as the unchained barbarian)

The Pathfinder Design Team has been kind enough to write a quick FAQ regarding this issue.

I don't think the FAQ answers the question he's asking (also your link doesn't work, I fixed it).

Let's put it this way, Skald says that they can use Skald Rage powers when raging, does this mean that an Unchained Barbarian/Skald multiclass can benefit from rage powers that the Unchained Barbarian cannot actually get (such as Moment of Clarity) while using Unchained Rage?

Additionally, certain Prestige Classes, such as Ulfen Guard, refer to the barbarian's rage ability and say that their rounds stack, if an Unchained Barbarian/Ulfen Guard rages, does it use unchained rage? or can it choose between unchained rage and normal rage each time it rages, keeping in mind that the pool of rage rounds stack (Ulfen Guard says so)? Additionally, Ulfen Guard isn't restricted to the Unchained rage powers, so can an Unchained Barbarian/Ulfen Guard benefit from non-unchained rage powers while using Unchained rage?

I'll have to investigate the first question.

For the prestige classes that add to an existing rage class feature, it should follow the same rules for the rage feature granted by your base class. Are you a barbarian/Ulfen guard? Use the Str/Con rage. Are you an unchained barbarian/Ulfen guard? Use the melee attack/melee damage rage.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Carlos Robledo wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(
You could make a Protean eidolon with the unchained one... proteans can kinda look like anything since they are the essence of chaos...

You could have an earth elemental with the fluff that it looks like a mass of plants, or a specific plant... plus, when they get the burrow speed, you can have them erupt from the ground as if they were sprouting.

4/5 Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:


Also I hardly feel the AGC saying that an "alternate class is technically an archetype" is weird. It's not like it's twisting the meaning or misconstruing what is being said. It's literally saying that an alternate class is technically an archetype for the base class.
APG wrote:
The antipaladin is an alternate class. Making use of and altering numerous facets of the paladin core class, this villainous warrior can't truly be considered a new character class by its own right. By the changes made here, though, the details and tones of the paladin class are shifted in a completely opposite direction and captures an entirely different fantasy theme, without needlessly designing an entire new class. While a redesign of sorts, this alternate class can be used just as any of the other base classes found in the first part of this chapter.
UC wrote:
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.

Here are the two rules text sources on alternate classes from books that contain them. The ACG's description is comparatively misleading. And below, here's some text on archetype, which states that archetypes must be of a class, not another archetype:

APG wrote:

Most of the options presented on the following pages include a host of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

EDIT: I was wondering where the "technically an archetype" quote even came from for a while. It isn't even in rules text; it's in the class design section. I've talked to the team and we've marked it for errata.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TimD wrote:

So, to make sure I'm following...

If I have an Oread Summoner with the Shaitan Binder Archtype who has not yet been played at 2nd level.

I can no longer play them as a APG Summoner because they've not been played at 2nd level.

I cannot convert them to an Unchained Summoner because their archtype modifies the "base form" of the Eidolon.

... so, they're effectively completely non-viable as a character now, right?

-TimD

You convert them to an Unchained Summoner, scrap the archetype, and redo the Eidolon from scratch.

Grand Lodge 2/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Another corner case question I'm afraid.

Someone I know has an (APG)summoner that he has played once (July '14); however last week he chose to allocate it an AP chronicle pushing it to 4XP and 2nd level. Unfortunately he wont get to actually play it at 2nd level before the deadline.

Is he covered by the Grandfather clause?

4/5 *

Nope. But he can still rebuild under the first level rebuild rules into anything *except* an old summoner.

2/5

Darrell Impey UK wrote:

Another corner case question I'm afraid.

Someone I know has an (APG)summoner that he has played once (July '14); however last week he chose to allocate it an AP chronicle pushing it to 4XP and 2nd level. Unfortunately he wont get to actually play it at 2nd level before the deadline.

Is he covered by the Grandfather clause?

The summoner is still within the window of free rebuilds as it has not been played at level two. It can not be an APG summoner.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
TimD wrote:

So, to make sure I'm following...

If I have an Oread Summoner with the Shaitan Binder Archtype who has not yet been played at 2nd level.

I can no longer play them as a APG Summoner because they've not been played at 2nd level.

I cannot convert them to an Unchained Summoner because their archtype modifies the "base form" of the Eidolon.

... so, they're effectively completely non-viable as a character now, right?

-TimD

You convert them to an Unchained Summoner, scrap the archetype, and redo the Eidolon from scratch.

Or, as they have not been played at level 2, you can completely rebuild into a different character if you want to use your Oread Boon for a unique racial option.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Auris Deftfoot wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:

You don't have to rebuild the rogue.

But I WANT to.

Same here!

3/5

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Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
Carlos Robledo wrote:


You could have an earth elemental with the fluff that it looks like a mass of plants, or a specific plant... plus, when they get the burrow speed, you can have them erupt from the ground as if they were sprouting.

That's a nice idea, but there's a brilliant summoner archetype which just came out in heroes of the wild, which is now illegal for PFS. That's a real shame as sections of that book are now obsolete before it was even published. That's very unfortunate.


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John or Mark,

I'm having a discussion with my group about the meaning of the unchained summoner being qualified for all summoner archetypes. In PFS archetypes like synthesis are not legal for play. Does this blog post mean that unchained summoner in PFS can use all already legal archetypes or that it can use any summoner archetypes, like Synthesist?

(Been wanting to do synthesist for a while :) )

Thanks!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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Peshmonster wrote:

John or Mark,

I'm having a discussion with my group about the meaning of the unchained summoner being qualified for all summoner archetypes. In PFS archetypes like synthesis are not legal for play. Does this blog post mean that unchained summoner in PFS can use all already legal archetypes or that it can use any summoner archetypes, like Synthesist?

(Been wanting to do synthesist for a while :) )

Thanks!

No, Synthesist is still banned.


So the former, thank you!

1/5 *

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Pretty happy with these changes. I'm glad my fiancee can freely retrain her rogue into the Unchained version.

I still need to figure out if I want to keep my 9th level APG summoner or transition him to the Unchained version. I'm leaning towards the latter; the Agathion template fits my eidolon pretty well, and having him be able to Lay on Hands seems pretty awesome.

1/5

Mark Seifter wrote:
Stuff about alternate classes

So if the ACG doesn't mean that an alternate class is technically an archetype of the base class when it says, "an alternate class is technically an archetype." what does it mean? If it's its own class how come the ninja can access archetypes for the base class as they aren't listed as archetypes for the alternate class? If it's because of the line, "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class" then wouldn't the alternate class operate exactly as the base class in being unchained since the alternate is operating as the base class?

I'm not trying to be rude, obstinate, or stubborn, But I'm really not seeing how you are saying yes and no at the same time, since that's what I'm feeling you're doing.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Stuff about alternate classes

So if the ACG doesn't mean that an alternate class is technically an archetype of the base class when it says, "an alternate class is technically an archetype." what does it mean? If it's its own class how come the ninja can access archetypes for the base class as they aren't listed as archetypes for the alternate class? If it's because of the line, "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class" then wouldn't the alternate class operate exactly as the base class in being unchained since the alternate is operating as the base class?

I'm not trying to be rude, obstinate, or stubborn, But I'm really not seeing how you are saying yes and no at the same time, since that's what I'm feeling you're doing.

Please create a thread on the Rules forum to specifically discuss this topic.

1/5

Michael Brock wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Stuff about alternate classes

So if the ACG doesn't mean that an alternate class is technically an archetype of the base class when it says, "an alternate class is technically an archetype." what does it mean? If it's its own class how come the ninja can access archetypes for the base class as they aren't listed as archetypes for the alternate class? If it's because of the line, "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class" then wouldn't the alternate class operate exactly as the base class in being unchained since the alternate is operating as the base class?

I'm not trying to be rude, obstinate, or stubborn, But I'm really not seeing how you are saying yes and no at the same time, since that's what I'm feeling you're doing.

Please create a thread on the Rules forum to specifically discuss this topic.

I already have, but Mark is responding here

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

Chess Pwn wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Stuff about alternate classes

So if the ACG doesn't mean that an alternate class is technically an archetype of the base class when it says, "an alternate class is technically an archetype." what does it mean? If it's its own class how come the ninja can access archetypes for the base class as they aren't listed as archetypes for the alternate class? If it's because of the line, "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class" then wouldn't the alternate class operate exactly as the base class in being unchained since the alternate is operating as the base class?

I'm not trying to be rude, obstinate, or stubborn, But I'm really not seeing how you are saying yes and no at the same time, since that's what I'm feeling you're doing.

Please create a thread on the Rules forum to specifically discuss this topic.
I already have, but Mark is responding here

It was created 20 minutes ago. I will direct Mark to respond there. But, please keep future discussions on that topic in that thread. Thanks.

4/5

Question on summoners and the new April 29th date:

The blog post said "effective immediately" summoners from ACG were no longer legal. However, the date was then changed from "today" to April 29th.

Does this mean that pre-level 2 summoners from ACG can still be played until April 29th?

We have three tier 1-5 tables starting in 3 hours, and it would be nice to get a clarification before then.

Silver Crusade 1/5

John Compton wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:
I'm happy about this news, but I now need to find the time to assess the impact of switching to an Unchained rogue for the two level 7 characters that I'm playing at a convention on Saturday. A longer grace period that included a weekend would have been appreciated.

Understood.

In summary, an unchained rogue has the following major updates:

  • A new ability that adds extra conditions to your sneak attack (replaces nothing)
  • Trap sense is now danger sense which helps during surprise rounds.
  • A bonus feat at 5th level that augments one of your skills (replaces nothing)
  • Some rogue talents are stronger now.
  • Free Weapon Finesse, plus the ability to add Dexterity to damage for one weapon type

    Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.

  • So, I haven't read the Unchained book yet. But this means that the Unchained rogue is just plain better than the old rogue and a new player who uses the core rules effectively plays a worse version?

    Sorry if I'm sounding cynical, but it just feels weird telling the players I am trying to get hooked with PFS "You don't want to play a rogue before picking up Unchained."
    Keeping new players away from awesome classes for the sake of their own sanity (because they tend to be a bit more complicated than core classes) is one thing, but this sounds more like "This class can do what yours can, but better."

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