Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

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Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
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Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan McLeod wrote:

Under the summon monster spell it list the term EXPENSIVE COMPONENT and specifically mentions wish. The wish spell has a ridiculously expensive component. Can a developer give a numerical value for expensive? Only reason I ask is expensive is rather vague and the only thing I can judge is expensive would be the cost of casting wish or higher. I realize this is unrelated to unchained but in a way it is what with the Summoner class being "chained" down, beaten and humiliated publicly.

p.s. I looked all over for an answer to this and got vague unofficial answers. You would think this would have been errata-ed ages ago.

"Expensive" is anything that has a listed gp value, such as gem dust. You'll see the cost listed next to the "M" on the components line of the spell.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

So, what about all those summoner evolutions that were printed outside of the APG? Are they still PFS legal for the unchained summoner?

What about other classes that can take class features from other classes like:

Ninja Trick wrote:
Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

Ninja trick is called out on page 24 and if i got this right, the unchained rogue can take any ninja trick that doesn´t need ki.

You could totaly give your unchained vexing dodger rogue a climb speed this way at level 4.
It get's complicated the other way round, can a Ninja access unchained rogue tricks via his Rogue Talent trick..

I don´t think so.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Ryan McLeod wrote:

Under the summon monster spell it list the term EXPENSIVE COMPONENT and specifically mentions wish. The wish spell has a ridiculously expensive component. Can a developer give a numerical value for expensive? Only reason I ask is expensive is rather vague and the only thing I can judge is expensive would be the cost of casting wish or higher. I realize this is unrelated to unchained but in a way it is what with the Summoner class being "chained" down, beaten and humiliated publicly.

p.s. I looked all over for an answer to this and got vague unofficial answers. You would think this would have been errata-ed ages ago.

Expensive Material components includes everything that has a GP value, or in other words, if it has a listed cost is is expensive. Everything without a listed cost is supposed to be included in your spell components pouch.

Also absolutely the wrong forum.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I do want to take a moment to thank Mike and John for their replies and even changes made today.

Even if I didn't get VMC on the goodies list. ;-)

Grand Lodge

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I will be buying this for my home game, but I want to say a big thanks to getting rid of the APG Summoner from organized play. This was a severely OP class, it needed an adjustment.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Witch Doctor wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Blog wrote:
The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.
First Worlder Archetype modifies base form IIRC.
and as a double whamy, it alters the eidolon's type, from outsider to fey.

So the next question for the Paizo staff is if there will be an updated First Worlder Archtype coming out in a future product. Please?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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thaX wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Blog wrote:
The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.
First Worlder Archetype modifies base form IIRC.
and as a double whamy, it alters the eidolon's type, from outsider to fey.
So the next question for the Paizo staff is if there will be an updated First Worlder Archtype coming out in a future product. Please?

Personally I think the new Summoner is crying out for new base forms and archetypes^^

Silver Crusade

Yay, my summoner earned his 4th xp a couple months back! Won't have to buy the new book for the convention I'm attending next month!!

I'll still buy it though, just won't have to.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

So, what about all those summoner evolutions that were printed outside of the APG? Are they still PFS legal for the unchained summoner?

What about other classes that can take class features from other classes like:

Ninja Trick wrote:
Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.

Ninja trick is called out on page 24 and if i got this right, the unchained rogue can take any ninja trick that doesn´t need ki.

You could totaly give your unchained vexing dodger rogue a climb speed this way at level 4.
It get's complicated the other way round, can a Ninja access unchained rogue tricks via his Rogue Talent trick..

The above and what about other classes that can get rogue talents (Slayers, Investigators, Archaeologist Bards, etc), do they continue using Core Rogue Talents exclusively or can they choose a new Unchained Rogue Talent?


If any of you are that worried you can always play an adventure path + scenario to secure yourself an "Oldschool" Summoner for PFS in the way of Grandfathering.

Silver Crusade 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

Nohwear wrote:
I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(

I am also sad that you can't use my archetype in PFS, Nohwear, but the PFS higher-ups have their reasons. :)


Tyler Beck wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(
I am also sad that you can't use my archetype in PFS, Nohwear, but the PFS higher-ups have their reasons. :)

This still begs the question on if it will be allowed for grandfathered summoners to retrain into. Honestly, Wild Caller was the first I've ever actually wanted to play a summoner.

Grand Lodge

Witch Doctor wrote:
If any of you are that worried you can always play an adventure path + scenario to secure yourself an "Oldschool" Summoner for PFS in the way of Grandfathering.

Re-read the grandfathering rules. If the character had not been played at level 2+ before the blog post was made it cannot be grandfathered in. If you have one you are gold... if you don't yet have one you are out of luck.

Silver Crusade 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

dwayne germaine wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:
If any of you are that worried you can always play an adventure path + scenario to secure yourself an "Oldschool" Summoner for PFS in the way of Grandfathering.
Re-read the grandfathering rules. If the character had not been played at level 2+ before the blog post was made it cannot be grandfathered in. If you have one you are gold... if you don't yet have one you are out of luck.

I suppose it is possible that you could use the standard retraining rules to retrain into the new Wild Caller. However, I have a feeling that the Additional Resources won't include the archetype as legal anyway, since paying to retrain your current APG summoner would be the only legal way to use it.


dwayne germaine wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:
If any of you are that worried you can always play an adventure path + scenario to secure yourself an "Oldschool" Summoner for PFS in the way of Grandfathering.
Re-read the grandfathering rules. If the character had not been played at level 2+ before the blog post was made it cannot be grandfathered in. If you have one you are gold... if you don't yet have one you are out of luck.

Bugger. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY really hoses the option to play that really cool archetype.

Not a big fan of instant changes which hose cool options. I get why they're enacting it that way (see playing out aasimar and tiefling), but I don't like it.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
dwayne germaine wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:
If any of you are that worried you can always play an adventure path + scenario to secure yourself an "Oldschool" Summoner for PFS in the way of Grandfathering.
Re-read the grandfathering rules. If the character had not been played at level 2+ before the blog post was made it cannot be grandfathered in. If you have one you are gold... if you don't yet have one you are out of luck.

Bugger. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY really hoses the option to play that really cool archetype.

Not a big fan of instant changes which hose cool options. I get why they're enacting it that way (see playing out aasimar and tiefling), but I don't like it.

Rules get more restrictive when people try to abuse them, I don't expect the PFS leadership to give advanced warning to anybody anytime soon. (That said the archetype unfortunately not developed with the unchained Summoner in mind, in the product thread one of the designers suggests that future archetypes should work for both summoners).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mulgar wrote:


So I wonder who else saw this coming? And recently made a summoner? Like I did.....

Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:
The powers that be seem to have a strong fear or hatred of the thought of players flooding over with last minute APG Summoners.
For which we can thank all the people who abused the Aasimar/Tiefling grandfathering rules last year. They made sure that wouldn't happen again.

Because heaven forbid people get to play the characters they want.

Tyler Beck wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
I am a little upset though. Since I do not get to play much outside of PFS, this means that I can not play a plant summoner. It is just a bit of a tease. :(
I am also sad that you can't use my archetype in PFS, Nohwear, but the PFS higher-ups have their reasons. :)

If only those reasons followed a logic pattern that makes sense.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

For those complaining about "effective immediately", the last time they gave advance notice and asked people to be mature about it, a small group of people spammed speed runs of the confirmation to get themselves a lifetime supply before the deadline, and then rubbed everyone's face in the fact that they had done it. It probably wouldn't have been an issue if they had just done it quietly, there weren't enough of them to have an effect. But rubbing it in everyones face created a lot of animus, and raised questions about whether running, say, ten runs of the confirmation in 30 minute to an hour each wasn't effectively cheating by using OOC knowledge.

So yes, I am sad there is no grace period, but I totally expected not to have one.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Just looked at the sessions reported on my first worlder... acording to the web site, I never played the guy except for the mod I played. I am missing The Paths We Choose from Gen Con.

I may have to retrain the character and become a regular (unchained) summoner instead of a First Worlder.

Oh, woe is me...

Edit ... And the Thornkeep credit turned from The Accursed Halls to Santum of a Lost Age. Huh.

4/5

9mm wrote:
Mulgar wrote:


So I wonder who else saw this coming? And recently made a summoner? Like I did.....

Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:
The powers that be seem to have a strong fear or hatred of the thought of players flooding over with last minute APG Summoners.
For which we can thank all the people who abused the Aasimar/Tiefling grandfathering rules last year. They made sure that wouldn't happen again.

Because heaven forbid people get to play the characters they want.

Not everything that people want is necessarily good for the campaign as a whole. Needs of the many, needs of the few, Wrath, Khan, etc.

4/5

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thaX wrote:

Just looked at the sessions reported on my first worlder... acording to the web site, I never played the guy except for the mod I played. I am missing The Paths We Choose from Gen Con.

I may have to retrain the character and become a regular (unchained) summoner instead of a First Worlder.

Oh, woe is me...

Reported sessions don't matter as long as you have the chronicles.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

9mm wrote:
Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

Plenty of us expected a lack of grandfathering window after the results of the last one, and that the summoner would be very different from the APG.

9mm wrote:
If only those reasons followed a logic pattern that makes sense.

They most certainly do. You just don't know what the starting assumptions are.


TOZ wrote:
9mm wrote:
Honestly only subscribers who got a full view of just how hard a nerf the unchained was.

Plenty of us expected a lack of grandfathering window after the results of the last one, and that the summoner would be very different from the APG.

9mm wrote:
If only those reasons followed a logic pattern that makes sense.
They most certainly do. You just don't know what the starting assumptions are.

I been silent on that subject for over six hours. First Worlder is just a "innocent in the crossfire" that got mashed into the others like Wild Caller (both Half-Elf and Plant varients) in addition to several others that altered the eidolon's baseform or type.

All we have left now is:

Evolutionist
Naturalist
Story Summoner...and Shaitan Binder.

Yet you need a chronicle sheet to play an Oread for a Binder.

Which means we can either play an Unchained Summoner now, or we can wait till around an expected early June in case there is a feat/archetype/trait/etc that might be worth the wait.


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Awesome! Won't be missing the APG summoner to be honest. Never had one, but had the "privilege" of playing through a series of PFS scenarios with one, and it was utterly horrible to witness, especially me having a character that should've been quite effective in dealing damage and still being severely underpowered compared to summoner's eidolon alone.

Which kind of leads to this question I originally came here to ask, a clarification if you will - the thread is already a "TL;DR" so if it's been answered already, please could someone linkify :)

I have a character that is a multiclass barbarian/rogue, Full Core to the core (no archetypes whatsoever). Now, do I get to rebuild all of those levels to new composition of levels as I see fit (possibly even dropping out one or the other class entirely), or do I have to keep the levels I have of each classes separately: barbarian 2/rogue 7?

5/5 5/55/55/5

I believe you need to keep the levels.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.

This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I've had some really fun experiences with well done Summoners (as a player with other players playing one and as a DM with players with creative Summoners. They were strong but at least in the hands of the players around my tables they weren't broken (it helped that in the cases I'm thinking of the players had focused on really interesting roleplaying options over every last bit of optimization (but still made effective characters). These players also really focused on the Eidolon (in at least one case playing the character as if the Eidolon was the primary character.

In the hands of creative players, the Summoner had nearly infinite possibilities. I'll take a look at the new version and likely make one to try it out.

On the topic at hand - how does this ruling change (if at all) any feats or spells etc that use Evolutions? Do they now need to use only those options in Unchained? (I haven't read the updated Summoner yet - I assume they still have evolutions?)

(or are all such spells and feats individually banned in PFS already? - stuff like Evolved Familiar? Or there are some spells that involve evolutions)

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)

Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.

3/5 5/5

John Compton wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)
Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.

Nit-picker that I am, I believe you mean the fifth paragraph? =)

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rycaut wrote:

I've had some really fun experiences with well done Summoners (as a player with other players playing one and as a DM with players with creative Summoners. They were strong but at least in the hands of the players around my tables they weren't broken (it helped that in the cases I'm thinking of the players had focused on really interesting roleplaying options over every last bit of optimization (but still made effective characters). These players also really focused on the Eidolon (in at least one case playing the character as if the Eidolon was the primary character.

In the hands of creative players, the Summoner had nearly infinite possibilities. I'll take a look at the new version and likely make one to try it out.

On the topic at hand - how does this ruling change (if at all) any feats or spells etc that use Evolutions? Do they now need to use only those options in Unchained? (I haven't read the updated Summoner yet - I assume they still have evolutions?)

(or are all such spells and feats individually banned in PFS already? - stuff like Evolved Familiar? Or there are some spells that involve evolutions)

To my knowledge, no spell or feat collateral has been affected by this change. I don't have the book handy right now, but I believe all of the spells work as expected (albeit ocassionally at different levels) and the feats work the same way.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

FiddlersGreen wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)
Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.
Nit-picker that I am, I believe you mean the fifth paragraph? =)

Consider my figurative nits picked!


John Compton wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)
Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.

Thank you for a swift reply! That was exactly what I meant, I understood the (nitpicked) fifth paragraph, just wanted a minor clarification on the part whether you could adjust the levels since a character had classes that both got changed and would apply the rebuild rules.

Clarification approved and no hard feelings for not getting a cheesy complete rebuild :P

Sovereign Court 3/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Champlin

If we take advantage of the free retrain to change a rogue or barbarian to the unchained version, do we have the option of dropping an archetype for free at the same time, or must we keep the ones we already have? I'm talking about archetypes that aren't completely messed up by the changes, like Scout for Rogue, for example. Normally, if you retrained all the levels of a particular class to another class, you would lose the archetype, too. This isn't quite like a typical retraining, though.

Grand Lodge

I am super exited by these changes. I have a 8th level summoner who hit the benches after I had one too many bad experiences stealing the spotlight.

I hope the concept I was going for with my Eidelon is still possible, but I'll happily adjust to fit, if it means I can enjoy playing him again.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

John Compton wrote:
Rycaut wrote:

I've had some really fun experiences with well done Summoners (as a player with other players playing one and as a DM with players with creative Summoners. They were strong but at least in the hands of the players around my tables they weren't broken (it helped that in the cases I'm thinking of the players had focused on really interesting roleplaying options over every last bit of optimization (but still made effective characters). These players also really focused on the Eidolon (in at least one case playing the character as if the Eidolon was the primary character.

In the hands of creative players, the Summoner had nearly infinite possibilities. I'll take a look at the new version and likely make one to try it out.

On the topic at hand - how does this ruling change (if at all) any feats or spells etc that use Evolutions? Do they now need to use only those options in Unchained? (I haven't read the updated Summoner yet - I assume they still have evolutions?)

(or are all such spells and feats individually banned in PFS already? - stuff like Evolved Familiar? Or there are some spells that involve evolutions)

To my knowledge, no spell or feat collateral has been affected by this change. I don't have the book handy right now, but I believe all of the spells work as expected (albeit ocassionally at different levels) and the feats work the same way.

When it comes to feats like evolved familiar, your familiar might have trouble to fulfill the prerequisite of some evolutions since it like won't have the subtype (corner case when it comes to something like an imp familiar)

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

Xallis opens the thick iron door to his bunker, slowly peeking his head out into the open air. Nervously, he cast his gaze upon the landscape. Surely, he was lucky to survive the impact. Strangely, the landscape was unchanged. Fields were not burned away. No crowds rioted through the streets. Anarchy did not reign supreme, and everything seemed to be pleasant.

A clawed hand ruffles his hair from behind. "See?" said Naiva, brushing past him into the open air. "I told you it wasn't a big deal. Now come on, let's see if I can learn some new tricks!"

For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class. I'll gladly trade in discounted spells for the chance at trying out this fancy new system, and a shot at rebuilding some unfavorable feats on my Eidolon without having to pay for 12 levels worth of class retraining.

And pardon me if I'm asking something that was answered upthread: does the free feat/power/etc rebuild include reassigning your stats on the 20 point buy, or no?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Xallis and Navia wrote:

Xallis opens the thick iron door to his bunker, slowly peeking his head out into the open air. Nervously, he cast his gaze upon the landscape. Surely, he was lucky to survive the impact. Strangely, the landscape was unchanged. Fields were not burned away. No crowds rioted through the streets. Anarchy did not reign supreme, and everything seemed to be pleasant.

A clawed hand ruffles his hair from behind. "See?" said Naiva, brushing past him into the open air. "I told you it wasn't a big deal. Now come on, let's see if I can learn some new tricks!"

For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class. I'll gladly trade in discounted spells for the chance at trying out this fancy new system, and a shot at rebuilding some unfavorable feats on my Eidolon without having to pay for 12 levels worth of class retraining.

And pardon me if I'm asking something that was answered upthread: does the free feat/power/etc rebuild include reassigning your stats on the 20 point buy, or no?

The way I understand it, no. But the Summoner hasn't really changed aside from the spells, so your former stat allocation is still fine.

EDIT: Looking at the picture of you and your Eidolon, you might have to change your alignment.

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

The way I understand it, no. But the Summoner hasn't really changed aside from the spells, so your former stat allocation is still fine.

EDIT: Looking at the picture of you and your Eidolon, you might have to change your alignment.

Well dang. Xallis was built to have Charisma to the sky, but I wanted to toy with the idea of something like a battle Summoner. Or at least fix him up so he doesn't have just 12 for dex and con.

What brings up the alignment change?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Xallis and Navia wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

The way I understand it, no. But the Summoner hasn't really changed aside from the spells, so your former stat allocation is still fine.

EDIT: Looking at the picture of you and your Eidolon, you might have to change your alignment.

Well dang. Xallis was built to have Charisma to the sky, but I wanted to toy with the idea of something like a battle Summoner. Or at least fix him up so he doesn't have just 12 for dex and con.

What brings up the alignment change?

An unchained Summoner has to be within 1 step of his/her Eidolon's alignment, and the alignment is now set by the subtype. Angel Eidolons are NG, Devil Eidolons are LE and Elemental Eidolons are neutral.

If a summoner's alignment changes he might not be able to summon his Eidolon any more.

The Eidolons have gained quite a bit more character and independence, thus an Angel Eidolon will quite likely refuse to burn down the Orphanage.

EDIT: If you can tell me a bit about your Eidolon, I should be able give give you some examples.

Dark Archive 3/5 5/5

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
EDIT: If you can tell me a bit about your Eidolon, I should be able give give you some examples.

Right on. I'll sent you a PM with some details, so the thread can stick to wherever the thread is going.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere aka Rei

Do archetypes of other classes that use class abilities from these classes, such as the viking fighter archetype, switch to Unchained abilities or retain the Core versions? Sorry if this has been answered already, I didn't realize until I posted this that we had 290+ posts in the thread already.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All of the original classes (other than summoner) are still valid for the campaign, so there will be no need (or option I guess) to switch.

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean aka Wintergreen

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
David Harrison wrote:

So with the unchained barbarian's rage just giving a flat bonus to all melee and thrown weapon damage, are we going to see fewer two-handed weapon wielding barbarians and more two-weapon fighting barbarians?

Would the retrain allow you to change from a greatsword using barbarian to a two weapon user?

You can't

1. Change your attribute scores
2. Retrain feats not tied to barbarian class abilities
3. You can't get a full refund on your two handed weapon unless it has special abilities tied to your barbarian abilities.

Changing a two-handed weapon barbarian into a two weapon fighting barbarian will be difficult with the limited rebuild rules.

I'm not so sure it is that definite. The blog post says that it allows "the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features." And "a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. "

The rage change alters how rage and two handed weapons interact as it is no longer a strength increase.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online

Darrell Impey UK wrote:
All of the original classes (other than summoner) are still valid for the campaign, so there will be no need (or option I guess) to switch.

The option to switch is spelled out in the blog.


John Compton wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)
Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.

to go off of this, can a character be a core barbarian and unchained rogue? i have a 1 bbn/ 9 rogue i'm curious about.

5/5

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Xallis and Navia wrote:
For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class.

I what way is the new summoner more flavourful? Effectively you now have a more straight jacketed Eidolon with pre chosen evolutions and a fairly small pool of optional choices. You could already do pretty much the same thing with the original version by picking similar evolutions. Nothing required you to choose a multi attacking pouncing quadraped it was just the most obvious mechanically effective melee combatant.


jeuce wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe you need to keep the levels.
This would indeed seem to be the logical answer, yet I'd like to know for sure. Ping John Compton or anyone :)
Please see the blog's fourth paragraph. You can switch any levels in a class to its unchained equivalent at no cost. To use what appears to be your earlier example, you could switch a barbarian 2/rogue 7 into an unchained barbarian 2/unchained rogue 7 or just convert one of the classes. You could not, however, turn the character into a barbarian 5/unchained rogue 4 or an unchained rogue 1/druid 8--at least not without expending the necessary Prestige Points.
to go off of this, can a character be a core barbarian and unchained rogue? i have a 1 bbn/ 9 rogue i'm curious about.

Ofcourse, you are entitled but not enforced to rebuild any or all of your respective levels from each classes which gained an unchained version (though you can't have core AND unchained version of the same class on a single character)

Quote:
limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost.

So any one of the following would apply:

* core bbn 1/core rogue 9
* core bbn 1/unchained rogue 9
* unchained bbn 1/core rogue 9
* unchained bbn 1/unchained rogue 9

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