Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
701 to 747 of 747 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge 5/5

Andrew Roberts wrote:
I would probably say Shadow Strike is eligible for free retraining for Unchained rogues. Agree?

Agreed. Since it becomes redundant with the Rogue's new ability.

Grand Lodge

Are non-Unchained Barbarians, allowed to take Unchained Rage Powers?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are non-Unchained Barbarians, allowed to take Unchained Rage Powers?

No... they are class features of the Un-Chained Barbarian, not the standard model.

1/5

LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are non-Unchained Barbarians, allowed to take Unchained Rage Powers?
No... they are class features of the Un-Chained Barbarian, not the standard model.

As my understanding, nothing from unchained is touching anything outside of unchained. No new rage on your bloodrager or skald. No new rage powers on skalds. No new rogue talents on alchemists, ninjas, or bards. No new flurry for Sacred fist warpriest.


From my understanding the Shaitan Binder doesn't actually change the base form of any type of Eidolon other than the Biped. So wouldn't it still be allowable for the Serpentine and Quadraped forms? You'd still lose Share Spells though.

And the change to biped is a Bonus +2 to any one Ability Score so is it actually changing the Base Form? Or is it rather referencing the fact it only works on Biped?

Grand Lodge

In light of all the new Ki Powers for the Unchained Monk, along with the buff to base hit points, would it be reasonable for a rebuild to change the favored class bonuses along with those levels from Monk to Unchained Monk; say from 1HP/level to 1/4Ki pt/level? Lots of people are saying the Ki Pool is now insufficient for all the abilities that require Ki Points now, whats the harm in allowing a couple more pts added via favored class bonuses?

Shadow Lodge 2/5

I'm very late to this discussion party. My question is: If you played a pre-gen after the April 29th date, would you still be able to retrain a core rogue character that the credit from playing is going to?

Silver Crusade 5/5

If the rogue was played in Core mode, then I'm pretty sure it is availabe for the free retrain into Unchained rogue.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

UndeadMitch wrote:
If the rogue was played in Core mode, then I'm pretty sure it is availabe for the free retrain into Unchained rogue.

Sorry. I meant to say 'existing campaign' rogue (Core Rulebook).

Silver Crusade 5/5

In that case, I would be inclined to say yes. You haven't actually played the character after the cutoff date in that case. GM's can apply GM credit to a character and still retain the abillity to retrain, so I would think applying pregen credit would work in the same fashion.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Kezzie Redlioness wrote:
I'm very late to this discussion party. My question is: If you played a pre-gen after the April 29th date, would you still be able to retrain a core rogue character that the credit from playing is going to?

Depends on what you mean by "core" in this case.

If you just used a pregen, and applied the credit to a PC who is a standard Rogue in the Standard campaign, I would think so.

If the pregen credit was applied to a Rogue PC in the Core campaign, then no, as Unchained is not legal for Core.

1/5

does this affect Core characters at all?

Silver Crusade 5/5

spectrevk wrote:
does this affect Core characters at all?

Nope, unchained classes cannot be used in Core Campaign.

3/5 5/5

If you want to change a Core PFS core rogue into an unchained rogue you can switch them to a normal PFS character I would think.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
spectrevk wrote:
does this affect Core characters at all?

It's a good way to exit your character from Core to Classic.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

kinevon wrote:
Kezzie Redlioness wrote:
I'm very late to this discussion party. My question is: If you played a pre-gen after the April 29th date, would you still be able to retrain a core rogue character that the credit from playing is going to?

Depends on what you mean by "core" in this case.

If you just used a pregen, and applied the credit to a PC who is a standard Rogue in the Standard campaign, I would think so.

If the pregen credit was applied to a Rogue PC in the Core campaign, then no, as Unchained is not legal for Core.

Pregen to existing campaign. I just wanted to make sure before I did any erasing and re-writing.

Liberty's Edge

Well, I missed the 2 day window to decide on whether to convert my lvl 3 Summoner (now lvl 4) and have played him twice since April 29th, so I'll look over the new Summoner and decide if I want to create an Unchained Summoner to play both in tandem to test out the differences. Makes me want to make sure to push any new PC to lvl 2 ASAP from now on ;)

5/5 5/55/55/5

Can unchained rogues with archetypes that trade out uncanny dodge but get the option to get it back as one of their rogue talents do so?

3/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Can unchained rogues with archetypes that trade out uncanny dodge but get the option to get it back as one of their rogue talents do so?

What talent would that be?

Never saw one that does this trick.
You could multiclass for that though.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Benjamin Falk wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Can unchained rogues with archetypes that trade out uncanny dodge but get the option to get it back as one of their rogue talents do so?

What talent would that be?

Never saw one that does this trick.
You could multiclass for that though.

Vexing dodger does that for one. I think there's another few that do the same thing.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Just noticed the "unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes", but some archetypes seem compatible (maybe just these):

  • Master of Many Forms
  • Weapon Adept
  • Maneuver Master

"does not qualify for any" is pretty definitive. I'm curious if that came from the belief that all would have conflicted or it the few that didn't seem to conflict were also intended to be blocked.

I guess I need to convert back to regular Monk as I'm now an Unchained Monk with Maneuver Master (and didn't realize I was breaking a rule.) Is it also possible to do the free retain from Maneuver Master Monk to Unchained Monk (no archetype)?

Liberty's Edge 1/5

James Risner wrote:

Just noticed the "unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes", but some archetypes seem compatible (maybe just these):

  • Master of Many Forms
  • Weapon Adept
  • Maneuver Master

"does not qualify for any" is pretty definitive. I'm curious if that came from the belief that all would have conflicted or it the few that didn't seem to conflict were also intended to be blocked.

I guess I need to convert back to regular Monk as I'm now an Unchained Monk with Maneuver Master (and didn't realize I was breaking a rule.) Is it also possible to do the free retain from Maneuver Master Monk to Unchained Monk (no archetype)?

You should open a Thread in the rules forum regarding this and try to get people to click FAQ for it.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

I don't think it is exactly "frequently asked". I didn't check the blog, and just checked the Additional Resources page. I didn't notice that there were restrictions from the Additional Resources page.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dracala wrote:

From my understanding the Shaitan Binder doesn't actually change the base form of any type of Eidolon other than the Biped. So wouldn't it still be allowable for the Serpentine and Quadraped forms? You'd still lose Share Spells though.

And the change to biped is a Bonus +2 to any one Ability Score so is it actually changing the Base Form? Or is it rather referencing the fact it only works on Biped?

Yes, if you're buffing the Base Form, you're changing it. If the archetype restricts the base form, that's considered a change.

The Exchange 3/5

My son has a monk character and we are considering a rebuild. The original is a Monk of the 4 Winds archetype, which won't be allowed with the rebuild. He would still take elemental fist as a feat, but it looks like there is no way to get the damage progression (or extra uses) on the elemental fist attack once you lose the archetype?

Is there another way to boost that ability that is unchained legal?

(edit) I guess elemental fury ki power is the obvious replacement. Doesn't allow the damage to get an extra 1d6 per use at 5th level, but for a ki point could add (at 6th level) 1d6 to every attack for a 3 round period. That could be 9 attacks with flurry or 12 if he spent 3 more ki points (or more attacks adding AoO).

So instead of 2d6 six times per day with elemental fist feat he gets 1d6 for all attacks in 3 rounds whenever he spends 1 ki point, but he gets back stunning fist which he had given up for the archetype. Have to expend 2 ki to get similar elemental damage in a day.

And of course he gets better BAB, no flurry attack penalty, and a couple of ki powers instead of slow fall 30. Slow fall any distance is now available as a ki power choice, so he gets a bonus to falling distance as well as another power. The only other downside is reduced will saves.

The Exchange 3/5

Actually the two ki powers replace slow fall 30 and high jump, so would have to ditch one of those to take elemental fury, or give up another feat to get elemental fist (which isn't really worth it without the archetype).

Also I missed that you now need to obtain ki powers for sudden speed and furious defense before you can use ki points for movement or AC (unlike the standard monk). Sudden speed is +30 instead of +20 and lasts a minute instead of a round. The monk has to be 7th level before he can take furious defense, although formless mastery appears to be a better choice if the monk doesn't have a style feat (of course the current version does).

But he would also get to add a style strike.

We will have some things to talk about...

Liberty's Edge 1/5

James Risner wrote:

I don't think it is exactly "frequently asked". I didn't check the blog, and just checked the Additional Resources page. I didn't notice that there were restrictions from the Additional Resources page.

Just because people have not asked a question on the boards does not mean it is not being asked off the boards.

Also I have seen variations on your question numerous times in the short time since Unchained hit the shelves.

Grand Lodge 5/5

It seems weird to me that ther seem to be two points of view in this blog.

1. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Sure, (with these restrictions.)
2. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Nope. Unchained Monk is a different class than normal monk.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Peter Kies wrote:

My son has a monk character and we are considering a rebuild. The original is a Monk of the 4 Winds archetype, which won't be allowed with the rebuild. He would still take elemental fist as a feat, but it looks like there is no way to get the damage progression (or extra uses) on the elemental fist attack once you lose the archetype?

I was in the same situation. But if you take Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity, your Elemental Fist will scale like a Monk of the Four Winds. If you go on to take Dragon Roar, you can turn your Elemental Fist into an AoE.

If he's a Str-based monk, it boosts unarmed damage quite a bit too.

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

Quintin Verassi wrote:

It seems weird to me that ther seem to be two points of view in this blog.

1. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Sure, (with these restrictions.)
2. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Nope. Unchained Monk is a different class than normal monk.

My personal opinion on the monk not taking archetypes is due to at least 3 of them being extremely powerful: Monk of Many Styles, Sohei, and Zen Archer. Making a MoMS dip or a Sohei dip even more attractive at no BAB penalty seems a bit much. Zen Archer going to full BAB would get pretty ludicrous. I have no idea if this had any effect on the decision but that's what I saw.

1/5

Quintin Verassi wrote:

It seems weird to me that there seem to be two points of view in this blog.

1. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Sure, (with these restrictions.)
2. Can I archetype with existing archetypes?
Nope. Unchained Monk is a different class than normal monk.

The Rogue has everything the old rogue has at the same time so all archetypes work for it.

The summoner and the Barb also get everything at the same time as the old version, but they modify Rage/Eidolon so things that also change those can't be unchained.
In Unchained all three of these were said to work with old archetypes.

The Monk doesn't get everything at the same time as the old and is specifically said in Unchained not to work with any of the old monk archetypes.

So don't blame the blog for following the rules set by the book. (Now the unchained Ninja is another thing that should be allowed but for some reason isn't.)

4/5 ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Think of Unchained and Ninja as 2 separate 'fixes' for the rogue. It's not designed/expected that you will need or use both to be/feel awesome.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Chess Pwn wrote:
(Now the unchained Ninja is another thing that should be allowed but for some reason isn't.)

its waaaaay too good as an option. It would be the only rogue, which is exactly what unchained was trying to avoid in the first place. There are considerations other than raw in place.

1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
(Now the unchained Ninja is another thing that should be allowed but for some reason isn't.)
its waaaaay too good as an option. It would be the only rogue, which is exactly what unchained was trying to avoid in the first place. There are considerations other than raw in place.

No, you'd have unchained rogues instead of unchained ninjas for the same reason you had normal rogues instead of all ninjas. If the problem was that everyone would be a ninja then the original ninja should have been banned too.

Also what they choose to allow is their choice. The thing I don't like is that they are saying RAW it doesn't work, but the RAW we had said it did work and then we were told that that RAW was an error but that we don't actually know what the correct view on the situation is. Since alternate classes aren't the base class but maybe can still take archetypes and FCB and feats of the base class if they count but they might not since they are their own separate class, and the ACG said they were just archetypes and that goes along with what Jason has said on the forums, but apparently that was a mistake and we don't know how Alternate classes work at all now.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Chess Pwn wrote:


No, you'd have unchained rogues instead of unchained ninjas for the same reason you had normal rogues instead of all ninjas.

Because people didn't own the book, didn't know about the option, or were too hung up on the class name to take the obviously better option? The rogue had nothing else for it really...

and that was a problem. It was a problem they tried (and seem to have succeeded at) with unchained.

Quote:
If the problem was that everyone would be a ninja then the original ninja should have been banned too.

Every ROGUE would be a ninja. As pirate rob said, they were two different attempts to fix the rogue. They weren't meant and aren't required to go together.

Quote:
Also what they choose to allow is their choice. The thing I don't like is that they are saying RAW it doesn't work, but the RAW we had said it did work and then we were told that that RAW was an error but that we don't actually know what the correct view on the situation is.

Believe me I understand. Everything we have pointed at the combo working but some unwritten thing we don't get to go off says that they don't.

1/5

Meh, there are some archetypes that the ninja can't pull off that the rogue can. There's actually a combo I'm thinking of doing that requires the old rogue as the unchained doesn't get the right rogue talents and the archetype doesn't work on a ninja.

And when I said "hat everyone would be a ninja" I was referring to rogues. If the ninja made the old rogue obsolete why wasn't it banned?

I'm still just frustrated that we have another unwritten rule messing with us that we have no foundation to know how it works. Pretty much all we know is that it's stopping the unchained rogue applying to the ninja. At least the "hand" rule was pretty well clarified of what it was.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Chess Pwn wrote:


And when I said "hat everyone would be a ninja" I was referring to rogues. If the ninja made the old rogue obsolete why wasn't it banned?

Because the ninja was SUPPOSED to be better than the rogue. Just like the unchained rogue is supposed to be better than the chained rogue. After years of players pointing out the inadaquacies that the rogue started with and were exacerbated by other classes getting new power ups while the rogue got nothing but lame do nothing talents they finally listened and patched the boat.

Quote:
I'm still just frustrated that we have another unwritten rule messing with us that we have no foundation to know how it works. Pretty much all we know is that it's stopping the unchained rogue applying to the ninja. At least the "hand" rule was pretty well clarified of what it was.

I don't know if they know how they want alternate classes to work now except for this one case not working.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Alternate classes really haven't been definitively defined for Pathfinder yet.

So declaring that PFS is breaking a rule or using a special rule just for the Ninja and Unchained rogue, is just flat out wrong.

It took discussion with the design team for the campaign leadership to decide how to deal with the Ninja in relation to the unchained rogue. You even have a designer indicating that the way PFS is dealing with it, is the correct way.

I prefer to listen to a designer rather than a fan.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BTW, there are and were several reasons to go with (Chained) Rogue over Ninja, not least of which is that Ninja cannot do some of the real reason you want a Rogue in the party.

I looked, I saw, Ninja just didn't meet my requirements for a really usable class. I have had at least one TPK for a party which had a Ninja (or other Rogue archetype that gave up the wrong stuff) instead of a "real" Rogue.

Seriously, face planting may be okay for some of the simple, low level traps (although the TPK party I can think of off the top of my head was only 1st or 2nd level), after a certain point, even with good saves, traps become too vicious.

The NEW Tucker's Kobolds:
Played the 5 Star Special the other day, and our party proved that even "simple" traps can be dangerous, and not all the traps we made were all that simple.

There are just some possible traps, even at fairly low level, that can be ugly without being fatal in-and-of themselves. Consider a Glitterdust trap, with an ambush party nearby.

5/5 5/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I request that the Broodmaster archetype be made legal solely for unchained summoners for making one angel eidolon and one devil eidolon.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

*casts resurrect thread*

So, with the advent of a new Seeker Arc, I finally have a reason to sit down and formally do the APG to Unchained Rebuild on my Seeker Summoner (who hasn't been played since before the conversion/this post). This is a pretty dense thread on several different topics, so I want to be 100% I'm not missing anything here.

In a rebuild from APG Summoner to Unchained Summoner...

I CAN...

  • Swap all APG Summoner levels for Unchained Summoner levels at no cost.
  • Retrain at no cost any spells that are no longer legal choices (i.e. The level the spell is for a Summoner has changed, such as with Haste
  • Retrain any options such as feats, traits, skills, or other somehow no longer legal/valid due to the change (which is not the case at all for my character it seems)
  • Rebuild my Eidolon to the Unchained Summoner rules.

I CANNOT

  • Completely redo my Spells Known.
  • Change feats, traits, skills, other options, etc. that are NOT made invalid/illegal due to the class change.
  • Alter my my race or ability scores.

*Eidolon Rebuild Bonus Round
Do just swap out the choices that have changed, been removed, or are somehow no longer valid (feats, evolutions, base form, etc.) and slap on an outside type? Or do I completely rebuild the Eidolon from scratch?

Grand Lodge 2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I can't answer your question because I don't remember the specifics at this point. But I can add that you don't have to rebuild your summoner. Your post doesn't imply whether or not you knew that. Since you played it at level 2 before this blog went live you can keep it as is.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

claudekennilol wrote:
I can't answer your question because I don't remember the specifics at this point. But I can add that you don't have to rebuild your summoner. Your post doesn't imply whether or not you knew that. Since you played it at level 2 before this blog went live you can keep it as is.

I actually very much want the rebuild; thematically he summoned Devils (with elementals, fiendish template critters, and neutral evil/lawful evil outsiders as backups). Getting to have the Devil perks on the Eidolon is great, especially as previously the only way to get this was to take a feat requiring the PC to be evil.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Are there any archetypes that an unchained monk can take atm?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Robin Xu wrote:
Are there any archetypes that an unchained monk can take atm?

I don't think so

2/5 *

yes there are a couple from newer books , like the Mantis Monk.

1/5

Robin Xu wrote:
Are there any archetypes that an unchained monk can take atm?

I believe that there are two. There is the Serpentfire Adept from Occult Origins, and the Monk of the Mantis from Dirt Tactics Toolbox.

1 to 50 of 747 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Paizo Blog: Society Unchained All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.