Society Unchained

Monday, April 27, 2015

Ever since its announcement nearly a year ago, players and GMs alike have been speculating about what would appear in Pathfinder Unchained. It was only a short step from there to start wondering what would appear in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We started exploring this same question early in the book's production, and even then it was clear that some sections would not be a good fit for the campaign, others would absolutely play a role, and many others would require closer study. With the generous assistance of the Pathfinder Design Team and numerous volunteers, we were able to weigh the pros and cons and finalize what our Pathfinders might see in the field.

We'll start by discussing some of the sub-systems that likely come as no surprise to anyone, largely because they would require massive character rebuilds, severely impact how the game works for someone who just has the Core Rulebook, or require us to scrap the current XP system. Much of Chapter 3 (Gameplay) falls into this category; removing alignment, ditching iterative attacks, altering poison, heavy revising action economy, and introducing wound thresholds would invalidate considerable chunks of existing scenarios and possibly wreck how many of our existing characters function. Other features reference gameplay elements that simply don't appear in the organized play campaign, so dynamic item creation, alternate profession rules, fractional base bonuses, and staggered advancement are not a good fit. As intriguing as the many new skill options look, imposing consolidated skills, grouped skills, or background skills would just be too disruptive for a campaign in its seventh year. The same is true for many of the magic systems, including simplified spellcasting, spell alterations, automatic bonus progressions, and innate item bonuses.


Illustration by Tomasz Chistowski

Several other systems were not so cut and dry. We discussed the stamina pool system for quite a while before deciding not to include it; it is an extensive section that we may revisit in the future, but at this time it is not available in the campaign. We came to a similar conclusion for variant multiclassing. We are adding the Signature Skill feat for exclusive use by the unchained rogue—which I suppose spoils a later surprise. John is very excited to include esoteric components and scaling items on a few Chronicle sheets, but these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

Still, we imagine Chapter 1 (Classes) is the topic everyone is waiting for, and we have seen many of you making fairly accurate predictions. All four Pathfinder Unchained classes—barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner—will be legal for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The unchained barbarian, monk, and rogue are available in addition to the versions that appear in the Core Rulebook; as noted on page 8 of Pathfinder Unchained, "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."

In fact, we're so excited about these classes that we're announcing a one-time limited rebuild to anyone with one or more levels in these classes, allowing those characters to switch any levels in the four classes to their unchained version at no cost. This includes the automatic retraining of any rage powers or rogue talents, as well as the free retraining and selling at full cost of any feats, items, and other character options that no long function properly due to the unchained classes features. For example, a rogue automatically gains the ability to add her Dexterity bonus to damage, so she could sell back her +1 agile rapier at full price. Likewise, a barbarian with the Raging Vitality feat would no longer benefit from its increased Constitution bonus, so she could retrain that feat for free. Much like when we have offered free faction changes in the past, you'll need to take advantage of this opportunity before you play the character after April 29, 2015.

You may notice that we did not say the unchained summoner would be available alongside its Advanced Player's Guide counterpart. Effective immediately, the Advanced Player's Guide summoner is no longer available in the organized play campaign, and the unchained summoner is its legal replacement. However, we recognize that someone who already has a summoner (and the book to play it) should not be punished for this change. Therefore, if you have a character with levels in the summoner class, and you have played the character at least once at level 2 or higher, you get to keep your summoner as is; you may also continue to gain levels in the summoner class. Any character gaining a level in summoner for the first time must use the unchained summoner, and anyone character still within the 1st-level window of free rebuilding must also use the unchained summoner.

As a final note, we want to advise folks about archetype and other features' compatibility for the unchained classes for the organized play campaign.

  • The unchained barbarian qualifies for any archetype that does not modify how the rage class feature operates (such as the urban barbarian archetype), and she is limited to any barbarian rage power that appears in Chapter 1 (including the rage powers on page 13)
  • The unchained monk does not qualify for any archetypes, save those in future publications that specifically cite their compatibility with the unchained monk class.
  • The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24).
  • The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

The Pathfinder Society Team

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Tags: Amiri Barbarians Iconics Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Society Rogues Summoners Tomasz Chistowski
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Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Mark Seifter wrote:
Keirine, Human Rogue wrote:
John Compton wrote:


Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.
Okay, does this mean that the Unchained Rogue can use Rogue talents found in the APG such as Offensive Defense and Guileful Polyglot? Because in the original post, it sounded like Unchained Rogues can only use the Rogue Talents specifically called out in Unchained. I'm in the middle of doing a test build on my 12th level rogue to see what she looks like Unchained, and those above talents are two that I've taken and was wondering if I had to change.
You get a better (helps the whole party) version of offensive defense for free (which doesn't use up your one * added talent effect!), so offensive defense is not an available rogue talent, as you don't need it.

I've now had a chance to glance over the unchained rogue, and have to disagree with this statement.

For my character at least, I greatly prefer using offensive defense to get +5 AC against all enemies to using debilitating strike to give one specific enemy (who may not even be alive next turn) a -2 to hit my allies and an additional -2 to hit me. So my wayang unarmed fighter 1/rogue 9 is staying chained.

As for my other characters:
My level 10 barbarian is staying chained as the 'replacement' rage power for reckless abandon is a competence bonus and so won't stack with inspire courage or other random competence bonuses.

My idyllkin aasimar with enlightened warrior will probably convert his two barbarian levels to unchained, but unfortunately he can't use the drunken master archetype with the unchained monk so he can't convert his monk levels to unchained.

My undead scourge paladin 2/flowing monk 3/champion of Irori 10 is staying chained because unchained moved still mind (which he needs as a prerequisite for his prestige class) to level 4 and he cannot use the flowing monk archetype.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Woran wrote:
Just spoke to the game store. They expect it either late week 19 or early week 20. Their distributor doesnt get it any earlier, and its one of the 'faster' ones out there for Paizo products.

Hmm, that'll be exactly on time (may 8th or 9th) or just too late for the may 10th game, going to be interesting :)

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

I think that's being debated somewhere.

You should be able to. The 3 Alternate Classes (Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin) are just extensive Archetypes of their base Classes.

Ninjas can take Rogue Archetypes that they qualify for, after all, and can choose Rogue Favored Class Bonuses.

I'm on the other side of the fence here. The Ninja, Samurai, etc. are still just the way they are, in large part because their base classes (Rogue, Cavalier, etc.) are still legal.

We now have Rogue, Ninja, and Unchained Rogue. Nothing about the announcement indicated the Ninja was getting an update. Imo, they don't need one as much as the Rogue did, and the lack of direction concerning *how* to update the Ninja (if they did want that) is rather unclear.

I'd hold off on any Ninja updates for the moment at least. I'm sure they'll make it 100% clear given time.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Michael Eshleman wrote:
I greatly prefer using offensive defense to get +5 AC against all enemies

I'm sure we all would, but Offensive Defense doesn't work like that.

the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Karui Kage wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I think that's being debated somewhere.

You should be able to. The 3 Alternate Classes (Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin) are just extensive Archetypes of their base Classes.

Ninjas can take Rogue Archetypes that they qualify for, after all, and can choose Rogue Favored Class Bonuses.

I'm on the other side of the fence here. The Ninja, Samurai, etc. are still just the way they are, in large part because their base classes (Rogue, Cavalier, etc.) are still legal.

We now have Rogue, Ninja, and Unchained Rogue. Nothing about the announcement indicated the Ninja was getting an update. Imo, they don't need one as much as the Rogue did, and the lack of direction concerning *how* to update the Ninja (if they did want that) is rather unclear.

I'd hold off on any Ninja updates for the moment at least. I'm sure they'll make it 100% clear given time.

Ninja is a rogue that has traded out everything but skills, sneak attack, uncanny dodoge and improved uncanny dodge. So take the unchained rogue and apply the ninja archetype to it and Bam, unchained ninja. If you don't agree, then do you agree that a ninja can be a scout?

Scarab Sages

I mostly don't agree just because it wasn't announced. The post made it very clear that Unchained Rogue and Rogue are both a thing now. Nothing about the Ninja, which is why I wouldn't recommend anyone do a rebuild for a Ninja.

My opinion on the Ninja not needing its own power boost is a separate thing. :)

Edit: Also, I'm dumb. This has been answered already.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

While I wasn't aware of that FAQ, you have conveniently left off the preceding part of the sentence.

The APG FAQ on Offensive Defense wrote:
While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution...

That isn't a change, it is a suggestion. Just like this FAQ doesn't let oracles in PFS use their Charisma modifier to hit with spiritual weapon.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

Hmm. Got the book. First glance, not terribly impressed, but I'll have to do a side-by-side comparison.

Still no eidolon base form with a good Int, so still not interested in either summoner.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Oh, when I heard ppl wanting to update their Ninjas to Unchained, I imagined retraining [NINJA] => [UNCHAINED ROGUE], not [NINJA] => [UNCHAINED NINJA].

I don't have the book, so I didn't consider if that was a possibility.

I'd lean towards "No". The Ninja doesn't need any help. The Rogue does.

But if you want to retrain from Ninja to Rogue, that should be allowed. Just no mixing.

Though I agree we should wait on a more final decision.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Michael Eshleman wrote:

While I wasn't aware of that FAQ, you have conveniently left off the preceding part of the sentence.

The APG FAQ on Offensive Defense wrote:
While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution...

That isn't a change, it is a suggestion. Just like this FAQ doesn't let oracles in PFS use their Charisma modifier to hit with spiritual weapon.

I left it out because I don't think it's a relevant piece of information, given this:

Reading up even further wrote:
The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Still working my way through the book, but I think I'll probably rebuild my level 11 monk.

One question, though. Are Monk Vows legal for an Unchained Monk? I don't think they are technically an archetype, even though they behave a little like one.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Monk Vows were updated to work like an Archetype, hence why you cannot combine Vows with the Zen Archer.

Sovereign Court

John Compton wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:
I'm happy about this news, but I now need to find the time to assess the impact of switching to an Unchained rogue for the two level 7 characters that I'm playing at a convention on Saturday. A longer grace period that included a weekend would have been appreciated.

Understood.

In summary, an unchained rogue has the following major updates:

  • A new ability that adds extra conditions to your sneak attack (replaces nothing)
  • Trap sense is now danger sense which helps during surprise rounds.
  • A bonus feat at 5th level that augments one of your skills (replaces nothing)
  • Some rogue talents are stronger now.
  • Free Weapon Finesse, plus the ability to add Dexterity to damage for one weapon type

    Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.

  • I do notice the missing Talents of Offense/Defense and Befuddling Strike. Was this done on purpose?

    Sean


    Nefreet wrote:
    Monk Vows were updated to work like an Archetype, hence why you cannot combine Vows with the Zen Archer.

    And since no archetypes are allowed with the new monk, it follows that no vows will be either. Bummer. :(

    Scarab Sages

    Since the unchained monk cannot take archetypes, several methods of Ki regeneration (Vows, Hungry Ghost, Drunken Master) are no longer available. You can take the Ki Leech qinggong power, but it would be nice to have more ways to regain Ki.

    Any chance of wyroot becoming PFS legal post unchained?

    Scarab Sages 4/5

    Jason Hanlon wrote:
    Nefreet wrote:
    Monk Vows were updated to work like an Archetype, hence why you cannot combine Vows with the Zen Archer.
    And since no archetypes are allowed with the new monk, it follows that no vows will be either. Bummer. :(

    If that's the case, it's not a huge hit. It'll cost me 4 Ki, but I haven't picked my level 11 feat yet, so I could take extra Ki. Plus I'd get Still Mind back to help with Will saves. Though access to +11 BAB feats means there's probably something more useful than extra Ki out there.

    But just for my own education, can someone point me to where that ruling was made? Because reading Ultimate Magic, there's no mention of them being an archetype. (I'm not saying they can combine with an archetype that gives up Still Mind. It seems obvious to me based on the text in UM that they can't. I'm just saying it's not clear to me that they automatically fall under the PFS ruling on archetypes).

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

    Ferious Thune wrote:
    Jason Hanlon wrote:
    Nefreet wrote:
    Monk Vows were updated to work like an Archetype, hence why you cannot combine Vows with the Zen Archer.
    And since no archetypes are allowed with the new monk, it follows that no vows will be either. Bummer. :(

    If that's the case, it's not a huge hit. It'll cost me 4 Ki, but I haven't picked my level 11 feat yet, so I could take extra Ki. Plus I'd get Still Mind back to help with Will saves. Though access to +11 BAB feats means there's probably something more useful than extra Ki out there.

    But just for my own education, can someone point me to where that ruling was made? Because reading Ultimate Magic, there's no mention of them being an archetype. (I'm not saying they can combine with an archetype that gives up Still Mind. It seems obvious to me based on the text in UM that they can't. I'm just saying it's not clear to me that they automatically fall under the PFS ruling on archetypes).

    There is no ruling. It's errata. The current text states "The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature".

    The Zen Archer does not have the Still Mind class feature.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

    Oh! Derp. This is what I was missing: "Following the vows is a new archetype, the qinggong monk, who can learn unusual uses of ki."

    Ok. I understand your question now.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland— Baltimore aka Qstor

    How does the new classes affect archtypes ? ie the First Worlder?

    Scarab Sages 4/5

    Nefreet wrote:

    Oh! Derp. This is what I was missing: "Following the vows is a new archetype, the qinggong monk, who can learn unusual uses of ki."

    Ok. I understand your question now.

    Yeah. Qinggong is what that line is referring to. Monk Vows seem more like Variant Channelling to me than an archetype. I'm good either way it's ruled, but it would be helpful to know.

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
    Qstor wrote:
    How does the new classes affect archtypes ? ie the First Worlder?

    First Worlder doesn't work with Unchained, as it attempts to change the eidolon.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland— Baltimore aka Qstor

    Kalindlara wrote:
    Qstor wrote:
    How does the new classes affect archtypes ? ie the First Worlder?
    First Worlder doesn't work with Unchained, as it attempts to change the eidolon.

    Thanks.

    Shadow Lodge

    Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
    Seran Blackros wrote:
    John Compton wrote:
    brock, no the other one... wrote:
    I'm happy about this news, but I now need to find the time to assess the impact of switching to an Unchained rogue for the two level 7 characters that I'm playing at a convention on Saturday. A longer grace period that included a weekend would have been appreciated.

    Understood.

    In summary, an unchained rogue has the following major updates:

  • A new ability that adds extra conditions to your sneak attack (replaces nothing)
  • Trap sense is now danger sense which helps during surprise rounds.
  • A bonus feat at 5th level that augments one of your skills (replaces nothing)
  • Some rogue talents are stronger now.
  • Free Weapon Finesse, plus the ability to add Dexterity to damage for one weapon type

    Unless your rogue relies on rogue talents that do not appear in hardcover books—which an unchained rogue is unable to select in the organized play campaign—the switch to an unchained rogue should do nothing but help the character.

  • I do notice the missing Talents of Offense/Defense and Befuddling Strike. Was this done on purpose?

    Sean

    These are now part of "Debilitating Injury" which the Unchained Rogue gets for free at 4th level.

    Grand Lodge 5/5

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:
    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?

    4/5

    No, because more rules will be released and then the list would need updating every time.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

    Damanta wrote:
    Woran wrote:
    Just spoke to the game store. They expect it either late week 19 or early week 20. Their distributor doesnt get it any earlier, and its one of the 'faster' ones out there for Paizo products.
    Hmm, that'll be exactly on time (may 8th or 9th) or just too late for the may 10th game, going to be interesting :)

    Weird. I got my copies in yesterday so they could be on the shelf today.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?

    Shadow Caller is still legal if you have a fetchling boon.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?

    Because there may be future archetypes that fit within the restriction. Such as when paizo publishes future material.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    jeuce wrote:

    "The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

    What if that archetype gives access to a feat as a rogue talent? Example; Skulking Slayer giving access to Surprise Follow-Through and the Improved version. How do these interact?

    It means that the archetype is legal, but you can not take that talent choice.

    Paizo Employee 5/5 Designer

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Nefreet wrote:
    Michael Eshleman wrote:

    While I wasn't aware of that FAQ, you have conveniently left off the preceding part of the sentence.

    The APG FAQ on Offensive Defense wrote:
    While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution...

    That isn't a change, it is a suggestion. Just like this FAQ doesn't let oracles in PFS use their Charisma modifier to hit with spiritual weapon.

    I left it out because I don't think it's a relevant piece of information, given this:

    Reading up even further wrote:
    The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

    Indeed. And I stand by the fact that debilitating injury is better than the actual offensive defense, not including the typo.

    Grand Lodge 5/5

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Walter Sheppard wrote:
    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?
    Shadow Caller is still legal if you have a fetchling boon.

    Shadow Caller is not legal according to the additional resources:

    Additional Resources, Advanced Race Guide, Chapter 2 wrote:
    Fetchling: all alternate racial traits, favored class options, archetypes except shadow caller, evolutions, equipment, feats, magic items, and spells are legal for play.
    LazarX wrote:
    Because there may be future archetypes that fit within the restriction. Such as when paizo publishes future material.

    Which can be very easily handled by having those archetypes mentioned as legal in the additional resources.

    Will the additional resources be updated to reflect the changes this blog has made?

    Sovereign Court

    Michael Brock wrote:
    Nohwear wrote:
    So, is the additional resource page going to be updated soon the reflect the unchained stuff? And hopefully include Heroes of the Wild.
    Should be Wednesday.

    Grand Lodge 5/5

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Acedio wrote:
    Michael Brock wrote:
    Nohwear wrote:
    So, is the additional resource page going to be updated soon the reflect the unchained stuff? And hopefully include Heroes of the Wild.
    Should be Wednesday.

    Thanks must have read over that post.

    Sovereign Court

    Damanta wrote:
    Acedio wrote:
    Michael Brock wrote:
    Nohwear wrote:
    So, is the additional resource page going to be updated soon the reflect the unchained stuff? And hopefully include Heroes of the Wild.
    Should be Wednesday.
    Thanks must have read over that post.

    Oh sorry, I had to pull that out of the additional resources thread. Glad to assist.

    Dark Archive

    I didnt see an answer to this, i tried to read all 452 but sorry if i nissed it

    Are unchained version of Core Book classes legal for Core PFS play?


    strangepork wrote:

    I didnt see an answer to this, i tried to read all 452 but sorry if i nissed it

    Are unchained version of Core Book classes legal for Core PFS play?

    I do not remember where, but the answer is no.

    Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
    strangepork wrote:

    I didnt see an answer to this, i tried to read all 452 but sorry if i nissed it

    Are unchained version of Core Book classes legal for Core PFS play?

    No, as explained by John Compton upthread HERE.

    3/5 5/5

    They don't appear in the CRB, so they aren't legal for play.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?

    Doesn't evolutionist let you modify your base type? Wouldn't that make it illegal?

    4/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    LazarX wrote:
    jeuce wrote:

    "The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

    What if that archetype gives access to a feat as a rogue talent? Example; Skulking Slayer giving access to Surprise Follow-Through and the Improved version. How do these interact?
    It means that the archetype is legal, but you can not take that talent choice.

    Why do you say that?

    Generally speaking the specific overrules the general.

    i.e. if an archetype gives you something (like access to a feat as a rogue talent), and taking that archetype is PFS legal (for an unchained rogue) (in this case I'm assuming a Half-Orc unchained rogue) then you should get all of the unique features of that archetype - for example an expanded list of rogue talents.

    I read the post as stating two separate items about the unchained rogue (not two related ones)

    1. The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes
    2. The unchained rogue is limited to rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)

    Part 2 applying to ALL unchained rogues whether or not they take an archetype - but that the usual rules for archetypes would still apply - i.e. if they change the class in some way - such as expanding the list of rogue talents that would still apply.

    if not that would be fairly unusual.

    Grand Lodge 5/5

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    FLite wrote:
    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?
    Doesn't evolutionist let you modify your base type? Wouldn't that make it illegal?

    The evolutionist gets the ability to change the base form after every level. It doesn't modify the base form or type.

    Shadow Lodge

    Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
    Rycaut wrote:
    LazarX wrote:
    jeuce wrote:

    "The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

    What if that archetype gives access to a feat as a rogue talent? Example; Skulking Slayer giving access to Surprise Follow-Through and the Improved version. How do these interact?
    It means that the archetype is legal, but you can not take that talent choice.

    Why do you say that?

    Generally speaking the specific overrules the general.

    i.e. if an archetype gives you something (like access to a feat as a rogue talent), and taking that archetype is PFS legal (for an unchained rogue) (in this case I'm assuming a Half-Orc unchained rogue) then you should get all of the unique features of that archetype - for example an expanded list of rogue talents.

    I read the post as stating two separate items about the unchained rogue (not two related ones)

    1. The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes
    2. The unchained rogue is limited to rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)

    Part 2 applying to ALL unchained rogues whether or not they take an archetype - but that the usual rules for archetypes would still apply - i.e. if they change the class in some way - such as expanding the list of rogue talents that would still apply.

    if not that would be fairly unusual.

    Agree. Much like the Beastmaster Cavalier opening up Mounts that are legal but otherwise restricted. You couldn't gain something from an archetype that is illegal per the Addl Resources, but you could use it to add something that is legal to your list of choices.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

    That would do some really weird things with the fixed base forms of Unchained Summoner.

    Is it still legal?

    Sovereign Court 3/5

    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Indeed. And I stand by the fact that debilitating injury is better than the actual offensive defense, not including the typo.

    I was planning to take offensive defense anyhow, but now realize it's wayyyyy overkill with debilitating injury. I don't want an effective AC of 35+ and piss off my DM... :)

    Paizo Employee 5/5 Designer

    Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
    Mark Seifter wrote:
    Indeed. And I stand by the fact that debilitating injury is better than the actual offensive defense, not including the typo.
    I was planning to take offensive defense anyhow, but now realize it's wayyyyy overkill with debilitating injury. I don't want an effective AC of 35+ and piss off my DM... :)

    Basically, offensive defense is rolled up into debilitating injury, so Unchained rogues don't even have offensive defense as an option.

    Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

    Mark, any plans on updating the Offensive Defense FAQ linked earlier?

    I was unaware it was contested until this thread.

    Paizo Employee 5/5 Designer

    Nefreet wrote:

    Mark, any plans on updating the Offensive Defense FAQ linked earlier?

    I was unaware it was contested until this thread.

    I was also unaware that it was contested until now. I've never even seen someone try to ask for the AC against all foes.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

    FLite wrote:

    That would do some really weird things with the fixed base forms of Unchained Summoner.

    Is it still legal?

    What weird things? I think you are assuming the archetype does something beyond what it explicitly states. The evolutionist archetype makes no mention of changing subtypes, only base forms. Therefore the rules for subtypes stay the same. An evolutionist can change their eidolon's base form to another base form when they go up in level. Depending on the subtype of eidolon you choose it could be utterly useless (inevitable for instance only gets one base form). At best you get to swap between three.

    So if you choose Agathion at level one, you're stuck with it. If you are an evolutionist, per the archetype's rules, you could switch your eidolon's base type between any legal base types. The legal base types for Agathion being biped and quadraped.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

    Damanta wrote:
    Walter Sheppard wrote:
    Damanta wrote:

    There's only 3 summoner archetypes left legal:

    Evolutionis, Naturalist and Story Summoner. Wouldn't it have been easier to just outright say that only those three archetypes work with the unchained summoner for PFS instead of saying it qualifies for all except those who modify the eidolon's base form or type?
    Shadow Caller is still legal if you have a fetchling boon.

    Shadow Caller is not legal according to the additional resources:

    Additional Resources, Advanced Race Guide, Chapter 2 wrote:
    Fetchling: all alternate racial traits, favored class options, archetypes except shadow caller, evolutions, equipment, feats, magic items, and spells are legal for play.

    Oh. Wondered when that changed.

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