Society Unchained

Damanta wrote:

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I sympathize. I was doing the exact same thing but only had 1 GM credit applied to the character.

I got two sessions with her, then due to playing more high level stuff and Core campaign she has not been played for three months, her next time was/is scheduled for may 10.

I'm just hoping that I can keep the shaitan binder flavour somehow, though the loss of the +2 to a stat to my choosing for having a biped will be missed, especially because I thought it was worth the -2 charisma Oreads have. On the other hand, getting share spells back is probably nice.

Oh man.....

I've got both a monk and summoner. Am i glad they're both at lvl 2.2 (hitting 3 at the end of current session) and 3 respectively.

Save for the monk being the 4 winds archetype.

Core monk is still legal.

i will be glad to redo my summoners to the new one. where possible. I would still love to see a fey , or plant variant to match the more 'wild' summoner archetypes. I dont think that would be hard to do.

Has anyone looked at rebuilding a scroll scoundrel rogue into an unchained rogue? Do you lose danger sense in stead of trap sense? how does that work?

Given the skill unlocks, I am not sure the SS is still worth it.

Danger sense, for both rogue and barbarian, has provisions that say that anything that would replace trap sense can replace danger sense for purposes of archetypes.

trollbill wrote:

Damanta wrote:

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I sympathize. I was doing the exact same thing but only had 1 GM credit applied to the character.

I got two sessions with her, then due to playing more high level stuff and Core campaign she has not been played for three months, her next time was/is scheduled for may 10.

I'm just hoping that I can keep the shaitan binder flavour somehow, though the loss of the +2 to a stat to my choosing for having a biped will be missed, especially because I thought it was worth the -2 charisma Oreads have. On the other hand, getting share spells back is probably nice.

Aw, sorry to hear that :(

I e-mailed the Subcultures (local game store) when they will get the book. I'll let you know once I've got an answer, altough much will depend on their distributors.

Nice summary of the changes.

Only thought might be to add in to #3 that the change does not apply to characters in the Core game?

Core monk is still legal.

I was worried slightly for a moment. With unchained monk & archetype restriction. So afaik, my two guys are safe. :)

Xallis and Navia wrote:

For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class.

I what way is the new summoner more flavourful? Effectively you now have a more straight jacketed Eidolon with pre chosen evolutions and a fairly small pool of optional choices. You could already do pretty much the same thing with the original version by picking similar evolutions. Nothing required you to choose a multi attacking pouncing quadraped it was just the most obvious mechanically effective melee combatant.

As an APG summoner, I regret to say that my wife will probably not be evolving into an Unchained Summoner. While myself and Sita have encountered the rare creature known as a pounce beast, Sita is a gentle soul interested in raising our children (Our twins, Mina and Lucie, have just taken their places as our herald and squire and we are very proud, hoping they join the Pathfinder Society sometime after our retirement.) and understanding the world she has become a part of. She has used her "evolution points" to raise her intelligence and become skilled in many human pursuits.

While we understand the desire to weaken the summoner and have some sympathy for this viewpoint, it is our understanding that most of the eidolon types only create weaker, less combat effective versions of the pounce beast, leaving us fewer options to learn and grow. They create no options, say, for starting with a higher intelligence or charisma at the expense of physical stats, which would have aided my wife in becoming the cultured and refined creature that she is.

In short, while we were expecting and willing to go along with a "nerf" and indeed understood that this was coming, the new class appears to meet none of our aspirations, and this greatly saddens us. We must agree with Xallis and Navia that the new summoner is a strait jacket rather than anything particularly flavorful.

That said, we are all very glad to be grandfathered in and are glad that rewrites for esteemed pathfinders such as ourselves are optional. This was the fairist way to handle this difficult situation.

Wishing you all the best gaming experinces,

Ambrose Dalsine and Family

Acedio wrote:

Core monk is still legal.

I was worried slightly for a moment. With unchained monk & archetype restriction. So afaik, my two guys are safe. :)

Yes, but you can do a free rebuild to the unchained version if you choose.

Has anyone looked at rebuilding a scroll scoundrel rogue into an unchained rogue? Do you lose danger sense in stead of trap sense? how does that work?

Given the skill unlocks, I am not sure the SS is still worth it.

not sure, but remember this from the blog announcement:

"The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

FLite wrote:

Has anyone looked at rebuilding a scroll scoundrel rogue into an unchained rogue? Do you lose danger sense in stead of trap sense? how does that work?

Given the skill unlocks, I am not sure the SS is still worth it.

not sure, but remember this from the blog announcement:

"The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

That is pretty much the only mechanical restriction to consider for rogue, as pretty much everything other than rogue talents choices is strictly better (and most of the rogue talents are included anyway!)

That's not how I interpret John Compton's post.

He could play his APG summoner before the 29th.

You're interpreting JC's post incorrectly.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

If the summoner is not 2.1+ then they either have to change it to a different legal class per the retraining a < 4 XP character, or convert to PFU version of the summoner. They CANNOT play as an APG summoner as that class is no longer legal.

Just to be clear about things...

The only class that is being "banned" is the APG Summoner. The core Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian are still good to go if you don't want the new stuff.

I, myself, could not be happier. That I have played my First Worlder is good, but I would have been willing to retrain into the UNCHAINED! Summoner if it would have been needed.

The "NeRf" that happened isn't just because of ubber playing and power gaming. There was also the easier way to build the Eidolons, which is an area of worst mistakes that have been made in the past. I, myself, had to rewrite my weak, little Toad when I realized/told that I could not take the Ranged evolution more than once.

The realignment of spells is a needed adjustment, though I can see why some would be a bit perturbed about that.

It will certainly make GMing the class a lot easier.

andreww wrote:

Xallis and Navia wrote:

For real though. As a Summoner player, I'm downright giddy at the shot for a rebuild in a new, more flavorful version of the class.

I what way is the new summoner more flavourful? Effectively you now have a more straight jacketed Eidolon with pre chosen evolutions and a fairly small pool of optional choices. You could already do pretty much the same thing with the original version by picking similar evolutions. Nothing required you to choose a multi attacking pouncing quadraped it was just the most obvious mechanically effective melee combatant.

As an APG summoner, I regret to say that my wife will probably not be evolving into an Unchained Summoner. While myself and Sita have encountered the rare creature known as a pounce beast, Sita is a gentle soul interested in raising our children (Our twins, Mina and Lucie, have just taken their places as our herald and squire and we are very proud, hoping they join the Pathfinder Society sometime after our retirement.) and understanding the world she has become a part of. She has used her "evolution points" to raise her intelligence and become skilled in many human pursuits.

While we understand the desire to weaken the summoner and have some sympathy for this viewpoint, it is our understanding that most of the eidolon types only create weaker, less combat effective versions of the pounce beast, leaving us fewer options to learn and grow. They create no options, say, for starting with a higher intelligence or charisma at the expense of physical stats, which would have aided my wife in becoming the cultured and refined creature that she is.

In short, while we were expecting and willing to go along with a "nerf" and indeed understood that this was coming, the new class appears to meet none of our aspirations, and this greatly saddens us. We must agree with Xallis and Navia that the new summoner is a strait jacket rather than anything particularly flavorful.

That said, we are all very...

For the record, we are of the opinion that it was a good change, not just a straight-jacketing. I'll be pouring over the new standard to see if it fits us, so we might yet remain as we are. Still, Navia does love the idea of change for its own sake...

Swiftbrook wrote:

You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

I think you're forgetting about a few other options they have:

1. Rebuild their character to something other than summoner.
2. Play a pregen and wait one day for unchained.
3. Play a different character and wait one day for unchained.
4. GM.

None of these involve booting that player out.

I can certainly understand the reasoning behind keeping to the rules of reporting. I've been a GM for a long time going back to 1st edition and value balanced, obeyed rules.

Assuming the new player is indeed a 1st timer:

The fellow wanted to play a summoner- not a fighter, not a rogue, but a summoner.

What's the difference between a pregen and his summoner, at first level? Surely it cannot be that overpowered at that level. Why NOT just let him play his summoner and then after the game redo his PC if it means turning away a new player?

If the player rolls up a new guy, then the rest of the table would have to wait while the newbie rolls it up.

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I'm buying the PDF as soon as possible, I'll keep you in the loop.

Since there are infinite hypothetical situations to go through, instead of parsing each one out in a tedious fashion, we would do better to address them as a whole.

I believe that we should arm ourselves with an understanding attitude that cultivates a welcoming environment, but still affirms what the rules of the game are. People cannot be allowed to play illegal characters in PFS. But those people should still be encouraged to play within the boundaries of those rules. And yes, from time to time, those rules will change as the game designers get better at designing and as the game improves over time. We should get better at adapting to those changes.

The book goes live in 24 hours, so unless someone was actually planning on playing a game with a level 1 summoner tonight and doesn't have access to Unchained, doesn't have a substitute character, and doesn't have any other way to participate in PFS tonight, there is no point in beating this horse.

There is no point in beating this horse.

You called?

Walter Sheppard wrote:

There is no point in beating this horse.

You called?

Is that the best line you can come up with?

The Undead Horse wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

There is no point in beating this horse.

You called?

Is that the best line you can come up with?

Yeah he gets turned undead and now he acts all high and mighty

I...couldn't resist

Where's Flutter? This seems like an animal rights thing...

.

RISES!

I'm buying the PDF as soon as possible, I'll keep you in the loop.

Don't forget, if you haven't used your taxfest15 code, you can get 10%.

Taxfest code

I really like almost all of these changes! I think you struck a great balance of allowing the new content where it makes sense while still restricting elements that would be too unwieldy to integrate with the existing campaign. Kudos!

I do feel like the immediate removal of APG summoners is a bit grating, especially since some people don't have the book yet. While I understand that you don't want people grinding new characters up to the level where they are grandfathered in, I wish there had been a bit more lead time.

In addition to the corner cases such as new players showing up with old Summoners, there is also the matter that players with existing characters may not have *time* to update their PCs. If the blog comes out on a Monday afternoon and I'm playing a PFS game on Monday night right after work, I'd be a bit irate about not having any time to switch. Next time something like this happens, I think it would be better to have a longer grace period (say, a week after the book's street date).

I have one other minor concern. While it makes sense to limit rage powers and rogue talents to the lists in the Unchained book, that list will get more and more outdated as new content is released for those classes. I don't see it as a big problem now, but in a few years there are bound to be a lot more options from other sources, and players will probably get frustrated that they are limited to a list of options that is fixed in time.

Have you given any thought to allowing Unchained classes access to more rage powers and rogue talents from other sources via the Additional Resources list?

Maybe I should get in on this action. I feel hurt that I can no long play APG summoners. I had 4 of them in PFS and now am unsure if I will ever make a new PFS pc again as i don't care for most of the classes in the game.

I am actually rather worried no one will ever be able to play an APG summoner anywhere as I expect everyone to point at this and try to convince their GM to just always Ban them.

Maybe I should get in on this action. I feel hurt that I can no long play APG summoners. I had 4 of them in PFS and now am unsure if I will ever make a new PFS pc again as i don't care for most of the classes in the game.

I am actually rather worried no one will ever be able to play an APG summoner anywhere as I expect everyone to point at this and try to convince their GM to just always Ban them.

Given the reactions in the general PF forums, most GMs are taking the bits they like of the unchained class and the bits they liked of the APG class and combining them. Everything from leave APG alone, to offer both to APG style Eidolons with UC spell list or vice versa.

They only people flat out banning the APG version seem to be the people who had already banned it because they felt it was broken, and many of them were open to allowing the UC version. so the UC might actually broaden your access, not limit it.

Any Point wrote:

The Undead Horse wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

There is no point in beating this horse.

You called?

Is that the best line you can come up with?

Yeah he gets turned undead and now he acts all high and mighty

AM I TOO LATE TO THE PARTY?

So will there be any updates about this made to the Guide to Organized Play before Season 7? I was pointing a handful (3-4) of new players to it this past Saturday, and I'm reminded about how great it is just to send them in that direction without needing them to delve into the blogs. It's just really easy to point new players in that direction when they go to make their characters. Maybe under Chapter 2 - Step 2?

Actually, this probably belongs under Additional resources, not under the guide. Thats usually where this sort of thing goes.

John Compton wrote:

Okay, let's be clear about how this interstitial period works.

2) If your character is a summoner but has not been played at least once at level 2+, that character does not qualify to remain as the Advanced Player's Guide summoner. If your character falls into this category, it means the character is still within the standard window for free rebuilding as allowed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you would like to have the character be a summoner, he must use the Pathfinder Unchained version of the class.

The moment the blog went live, playing a character with levels in the Advanced Players Guide summoner no longer contributed to this grandfathering criterion.

So, just to be clear, you are breaking the "Play, Play, Play" rule as I call it. They come to a table tonight with their APG summoner. You have stated they can not play the APG summoner. You turn them away because they are among the 90% of us who don't have early access to the Unchained Book (it hasn't been released), so they can't play a new summoner.

This is a corner case but that is just wrong! They had a valid PFS PC and because they don't have early access to a book they can't play their character.

note: I understand why you're doing this. I just don't think it's right.

And I think you dropped a few points, that might help you understand that it is, indeed, both right and not as painful as you think.

Just to be clear: You have someone coming to a table tonight, with an APG Summoner with 3 or less XP, and they won't be able to play that PC as is.

If the player's APG Summoner has been played at 2nd level or higher, with at least 4 XP, then they can, indeed, play it, both now, and in the future.

For the person with a 1st level, or newly second level APG Summoner, offer them one of the 1st level pregens. Or offer to assist them ion rebuilding their PC into an available legal option, or to play something different until the book with the now-legal version of Summoner becomes available tomorrow.

There are, what, 24?, PFS legal pregens, so there is plenty of choice available for a one-time substitution.

And, to be honest, for a new PFS player, building a legal APG eidolon is not the easiest thing in the world. Heck, I have been playing RPGs since 1979, including RoleMaster and Hero System, and I have still messed up my third level Summoner's eidolon at least twice.

The Dead horse wrote:

Any Point wrote:

The Undead Horse wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

There is no point in beating this horse.

You called?

Is that the best line you can come up with?

Yeah he gets turned undead and now he acts all high and mighty

AM I TOO LATE TO THE PARTY?

I trump you all.

Actually, this probably belongs under Additional resources, not under the guide. Thats usually where this sort of thing goes.

Not saying it shouldn't be in the Additional Resources, but that's the location where they have all the class by class alterations: subbing out scribe spell/brew potion, forbidding anti-paladins, and all that jazz. I think this is something major enough that it should be mentioned there.

I mean if you were a new player hopefully someone would tell you: "Don't make an old rogue when you can have a new rogue."
"Consider your monk and barbarian versions carefully."
"That type of summoner is no longer legal."

But you can't count on that, and the Additional resources page is, lets face it, not the friendliest wall of sentence fragments that ever existed. This is an unrelated note, but one thing I feel really terrible about the additional resources is that it mentions page numbers, which means I then have to break out my hard copies instead of searching the PRD (or use the Archives of Nethys).

I'm posting to get in before all the milk is gone from the fridge.

I get why they wanted this to go live as soon as the book was released.

I think most (probably would never be all when removing/limiting options are involved) of the issues would have been avoided if this post went up next Monday or was a special post later this week (Wednesday night or Thursday morning) after the book was on sale to the general public as a pdf at the least.

Hey Paizo/PFS staff! I just wanted to say, because I'm surprised to find myself saying it. "For the first time in ever, I finally want to play a rogue." Thanks for allowing the Unchained rogue into PFS - it was the bone the rogue class was waiting to be thrown, and I'm happy to see PFS allowing it in. I'll definitely have to make one of my kitsune buddies into the russet rogue I envisioned them to be. :)

I'll also be checking out what I can do with my barbarian rebuilds, given I have so many, and many are natural weapon/dex-based. :D

Ascalaphus wrote:

I'm buying the PDF as soon as possible, I'll keep you in the loop.

Don't forget, if you haven't used your taxfest15 code, you can get 10%.

Taxfest code

Thanks for the reminder :)

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

The functionality of a two handed weapon doesn't change. The change is to the modifier granted by the class ability. So just being a two handed weapon doesn't meet the conditions to trade back equipment at full value under the blog rules.

Two-handed weapons benefit from 1.5x STR bonus to damage. If the STR attribute is no longer getting modified, the two-handed weapon is also being impacted by the barbarian class changes. Thus, it seems to fall under the wings of the blog post conditions.

A fighter has the two-handed weapon benefit, even if he doesn't have any potions of bear's strength left. A wizard still has the two-handed weapon benefit even if he doesn't have any prepared enlarge person spells.

Wow thanks Mike & Mark & John & all the others. I am looking forward to sitting down at a table, intruding my class and not having the GM yell, :I hate you". I look forward to players not groaning when I introduce my character. I look forward to these options! (even if my eidolon loses 1.5x STR bonus to switch).

I look forward to the scenario set in the middle of Absalom where I cross a huge pit without a bridge (sober or not) and strange and godly powers offer a temporary rebuild with [variant multi-classing] options. Just saying. It could happen! :)

Xallis stands within his private chambers, a spacious room on his family's estage with the furnishings of a minor noble. Busy with a special ritual, his chanting fills the air as his hands make grand gestures towards the center. Dominating the room is a dark violet orb of chitin, anchored to the floor and ceiling with thick strands of living tendon. Through a portal of a translucent membrane, he can see his Eidlon Navia Grace resting in the middle. Her form is vague, almost mercurial, rapidly shifting through mutations that range from Human outright alien, with many feral evolutions between them.

"What to do, what to do..." he thinks, not-quite-out-loud.

"Something fun!" exclaims Navia's voice from the back of his head. "Oh, oh, maybe a tail this time. Xallis, give me a taaaaaiiiiil!"

PDF is out, woo! Looking through Summoner now, pondering a Protean rebuild. Reminded me of why I hated Serpentine Eidolons, though: Low base Strength and an equivalent 3/4 BAB progression on a monster that's encouraged to focus on grappling. But yeah, it's fun stuff and I encourage people check it out when they can!

Sorry if this has been answered.

For summoner, the version in this book replaces the versions in the APG, including evolutions in the APG. (so pounce costs three points instead of 1.)

What about evolutions found in other books? such as undead appearance or shadow blend?

Sorry if this has been asked already...

I saw that there's no unchained ninja version of the rogue, but with ninja being a rogue alternate class, can i rebuild my ninja to an unchained rogue?

I think that's being debated somewhere.

You should be able to. The 3 Alternate Classes (Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin) are just extensive Archetypes of their base Classes.

Ninjas can take Rogue Archetypes that they qualify for, after all, and can choose Rogue Favored Class Bonuses.

Sorry if this has been answered.

For summoner, the version in this book replaces the versions in the APG, including evolutions in the APG. (so pounce costs three points instead of 1.)

What about evolutions found in other books? such as undead appearance or shadow blend?

Pretty sure those are illegal now. Shame, too, since Undead Eidolons were an interesting concept. But now I'm wondering how the Evolved Summon Monster feat interacts with this. Heck, does Infernal Healing still work? If not, I mean, it's a class with UMD as a class skill and high Charisma, but it might add a lot of rolling to something that didn't need it before.

If there isn't a big collective FAQy kind of thread about this stuff, I might have to make one after I get some sleep.

Has anyone seen if unchained rage will be allowed or effect bloodrage or raging song? I like the mechanics better than the stat increases, but for society play I don't think I'd be allowed without some kind of official ruling.

Pretty sure those are illegal now. Shame, too, since Undead Eidolons were an interesting concept. But now I'm wondering how the Evolved Summon Monster feat interacts with this. Heck, does Infernal Healing still work? If not, I mean, it's a class with UMD as a class skill and high Charisma, but it might add a lot of rolling to something that didn't need it before.

If there isn't a big collective FAQy kind of thread about this stuff, I might have to make one after I get some sleep.

I am pretty sure evolved summon monster isnt PFS legal.

Sorry if this has been answered.

For summoner, the version in this book replaces the versions in the APG, including evolutions in the APG. (so pounce costs three points instead of 1.)

What about evolutions found in other books? such as undead appearance or shadow blend?

I think we haven't gotten an answer yet, but this might very well be a Pathfinder Rules Team issue.

Unless I am missing something, the unchained classes are silent on the issue of certain plug ins like monk vows, additional evolutions etc.

Damanta wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Damanta wrote:

I'm sad that the Shaitan Binder is made illegal.

I liked the flavor of it. Can someone point me to an online resource where I can see/preview the unchained summoner?

It's going to be a while before I can get my hands on the book (I've seen release dates varying from may 12nd to may 21th for the Netherlands, which am I to believe?) and I'd like to know if I can still continu the concept I had in mind for my Oread boon or if I have to come up with something completely different to use it for.

I sympathize. I was doing the exact same thing but only had 1 GM credit applied to the character.

I got two sessions with her, then due to playing more high level stuff and Core campaign she has not been played for three months, her next time was/is scheduled for may 10.

I'm just hoping that I can keep the shaitan binder flavour somehow, though the loss of the +2 to a stat to my choosing for having a biped will be missed, especially because I thought it was worth the -2 charisma Oreads have. On the other hand, getting share spells back is probably nice.

Aw, sorry to hear that :(

I e-mailed the Subcultures (local game store) when they will get the book. I'll let you know once I've got an answer, altough much will depend on their distributors.

Just spoke to the game store. They expect it either late week 19 or early week 20. Their distributor doesnt get it any earlier, and its one of the 'faster' ones out there for Paizo products.

"The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."
What if that archetype gives access to a feat as a rogue talent? Example; Skulking Slayer giving access to Surprise Follow-Through and the Improved version. How do these interact?