A more Savage Sandpoint. A new look at an old friend.

Game Master ZenFox42

Evesk - thanks for the offer, but as long as I'm playing her one way or the other, I'm happy.

Just curious, how would co-GM'ing work?

ALL - it looks like everyone's who's still around is on-board. It's been 4 weeks since PWGM's last post (in the games of his I'm in), and about 7 weeks since his next-to-last post. Interestingly, his last post in the SW Necessary Evil game he's running was 7 weeks ago, so something's been going on in his life for almost two months now.

Should we wait any longer, or just start up now?

Ceven - I saw thru your posts that you have a PC ready to play. Are you still interested?

Some caveats : I won't be doing as intricate and complicated melees as PWGM tended to do. I prefer theater of the mind, which makes combat *much* simpler. Altho if the majority of you prefer actual maps and counting squares, I can do that (if Jzero would help with creating the maps like he did for PWGM). Everyone please let me know your preferences, if any.

Also, full disclosure, due to an accident about 9 years ago I'm not as creative and verbose as PWGM in describing scenes, but I recently started using ChatGPT to help me, which works pretty well.

If you are willing to take it on, all I can say is thank you.

If you need any help with anything, just let me know.

I'm easy. I can move around a map as well as I can do theater of the mind. I'm a very old school RPG guy. We played for a good 20+ years without maps and minis. :)

I'll be happy to create maps. I have the original Adventure Path books from Pathfinder 1E, so I can raid it for maps assuming the encounters are similar.

I participated in a shared GM set of Pathfinder Society PBP games, but there, each scenario is independent from the next, so the plan was for the GMs to take turns so everyone can mostly play characters. The group only managed two shifts before most everyone got too busy to maintain it.

It does sound like our GM is dealing with some heavy RL issues, and a month without a post is pretty much a violation of the normal etiquette for posting. It only takes two minutes to post something on the discussion thread explaining the delay, so if we don't even get that, I think it's safe to assume the games are dead.

I have *plenty* of free time, so prepping for things shouldn't take too long, past the initial getting-up-to-speed on the setting, the PC's details, and what happens right after this encounter... - ok, relatively speaking not too long ;)

Jzero - independent of map preparations, any preferences on map-based melee vs. TotM melee?

Ceven - if you're interested in joining the game, you'll have to completely re-work your PC, since it's a Pathfinder character, and we're using Pathfinder for Savage Worlds. If you've never used SW before, you'll have to get the SWADE Core Rules and the PF for SW book.

Does anyone know how the GM "ownership" of a Paizo PbP game can be transferred to another person? Does the owner have to do the transfer? Because with PWGM MIA, then I'd have to create a new game. Not a problem, but I need to know if I have to do it.

Does anyone know how the GM "ownership" of a Paizo PbP game can be transferred to another person? Does the owner have to do the transfer? Because with PWGM MIA, then I'd have to create a new game. Not a problem, but I need to know if I have to do it.

Mmmmm... I'd assume the owner would have to do it. Don't think i've seen this happen before.

I guess you could try contacting Paizo for some support...

Check this link: https://paizo.com/campaigns

I generally prefer maps if only because it helps determine things like range and distance one has to move to close on an enemy etc. If we don't have a map, then we have to exchange posts asking the GM to rule on how close one thing is to another, is there any cover to consider, etc.

It also just helps to visualize the setting.

FYI (all) - I think I'm heading towards a method that would make combats take fewer posts. It would work better in theater of the mind, so Evesk, please let me know your preference between that and using maps, thanks!

Jzero - I understand that a map provides a lot of information at a glance, and can make the combat feel more real. I will admit that TotM does generally ignore things like how many rounds you'd have to move to reach an enemy, but in close combat that's not likely to be more than a round (maybe two) at most anyway, and it totally ignores having to "move on a chessboard". I can try to remember to say at the beginning of combat whether the enemies are at Short, Medium, or Long range for weapon attacks, and can tell you that the enemies are "N rounds away", allowing you to use ranged weapons until then. As for cover, since SW lets you influence the story with a Benny, I'd be perfectly fine with someone just saying "I duck behind the crate/tree/bush/trashcan I'm standing near", which then magically appears. Any major concerns with all that?

Whatever works best for the GM I can go with. We can see how it works in practice and work on smoothing things out to an optimal balance between speed and role playing pleasure. I'll still probably be inclined to ask for clarification of the situation when I can think of different options depending on details that have not yet been shared.

Sounds good to me.

I looked back at gameplay and it looks like Ceri and Evesk just acted and since the goblin dog is gone, that leaves me next, then Jzero and Mirri who we were botting a time or two.

All we have left is the ex-dog riding big boy who was wounded.

We can absolutely finish this fight with TOTM, especially since the map seems to be gone. I remember I was right next to him and I think Jzero was close as well.

I am still here and yeah if the GM has disappeared Paizo can transfer ownership

Next I have SWADE and PF for SW am I also needing to rework my character?

Evesk - your PC looks fine. Do you have a preference for maps vs. theater of the mind in combats?

Jzero - everyone should always feel free to ask clarifying questions, I'm just trying to set things up so that all the major issues with TotM are taken care of beforehand.

All - I have put in a request to Paizo to transfer ownership of the game to me. We'll see how long that takes.

How about we use theater of the mind supplemented with maps and icons when available? The position of icons on the map is acknowledged to be approximate so any questions of range or distance will be decided by the GM, but having the map will decrease the amount of verbal description the GM must provide.

Maps are helpful for most folks and can make things easier in some ways, however I would never advocate them unless you have a means of easily providing them. Still it looks like Jzero would be willing to supply the maps and icons the only question would how would they be presented? Perhaps Jzero have a solution for that as well and/or would be willing to present the maps as he is sort of doing right now.

Ummm...sorry to say this, but I'm much more comfortable with theater of the mind. Honestly, what Evesk said a while back about

...streamlining combat, to make it easier for the DM or GM to implement...

Final Note: It is usually excessive time requirements that leads to DM/GM burn out.

is spot on, and I've run PbP's with and without maps, and it is a *lot* easier for me to not have to deal with maps. Also, a lot of gameplay OOC's end up dealing with "am I on the right square?" or "what does this mark mean?" type map issues.

It takes a lot longer dealing with the actual map than it does to provide a brief verbal description of the area.

And I've come up with a procedure that should make fighting in TotM pretty straightforward, hopefully resulting in fewer posts needed per round.

I'd like to suggest we try TotM first, and see how it goes. If after a fair trial, the majority of players want to go to maps, I'll give it a try. Deal?

Sounds good to me.

I just heard back from Paizo, they have notified PWGM of the requested change, and are going to wait until Jun 26 to hear from him before changing over since he hasn't posted in over a month.

But, I suddenly realized - it doesn't matter if I'm the owner! I can make posts in Gameplay and Discussion right now, and that's what's important.

So, as soon as we're all agreed on the outstanding issues, we can begin.

I think I stated I was okay with whatever the GM wanted to do, Maps or TotM is find by me.

Note I do a sort of TotM with a postional layout to give folks some idea of where things are with the understand that battle is chaotic and no one is like standing in an actual spot.

Further I use a different form of Flanking system that caters to TotM in that if you out number your opponent you are Flanking them but you get a +1 Flanking Bonus per individual over 1 up to a maximum of +4. Note I use with or without maps as it does away with the clunky mechanical mechanics of needing to be on the opposite side of someone on a map.

Here is an example of a positional map that I use:

Snapper ................. Goblin 1
Salaha .... Dáin ...... Gobiln 4
................................. Goblin 2
William ... Stone .... Goblin 5
................. Grün ..... Goblin X ... M1-3

In the above layout Snapper, Salaha, William are in the back row, Dáin, Stone, and Grün are in the front row Goblin 1, 2, 4, 5 are in melee and Goblin 3 is dead X and the M1-3 are the 3 tiny summoned monsters that had appeared and attacked Goblin 3 that round.

Interesting, thanks! I'll play with it a little bit. How would a group of good guys and bad guys intermixed look? How would you determine "being next to" an opponent? In your map example, are the people in the middle column adjacent to the goblins in the third column? Does Dain have 1 or 3 goblins flanking him?

I checked, and you had just said that you were ok with whatever transpires. But you said that before I brought up the issue of maps vs. TotM, so I just wanted to double-check that specifically, to not leave anyone's opinion out.

ALL - here's my thoughts on playing in TotM with PbP efficiently :

START OF COMBAT
• If the bad guys are out of combat distance, I’ll say they are Short/Med/Long range away, and tell you how many Rounds until they reach you. You can shoot at them, buff yourself with spells, take Cover, etc.
• If the enemies are already within combat distance, everyone would start non-adjacent to everyone else so that Ranged weapons could be used, and a PC or NPC would have to explicitly say they're closing (you always reach your target in this round) and attacking with hand-held weapons.

IN COMBAT
• Don’t forget the many options to just bashing away : Aim, Called Shots, Defend, Disarm, Grappling, Push, Support, Test, Wild Attack, Withdraw, etc.
• Gang-Up and Sweeps : if a PC is being melee attacked by more than one bad guy (which will be evident in the combat posts), the bad guys get a Gang-Up bonus, and the PC can take a Sweep; and vise-versa.
• If the pre-combat setting description doesn’t mention any, you can create Cover for yourself by influencing the story with a Benny and have Cover immediately available.
• Regardless of the “to hit” roll, always roll Damage in case you hit (most of you are already doing this).
• Always roll a separate d6 Damage in case your Attack roll is a Raise (most of you are already doing this).

In the Initiative post, I will attach a spoiler to each of your names. In the spoiler, I will give you your current status in terms of Bennies, PP, your status (Shaken, Wounds, Bleeding Out, Incapacitated, Distracted, Vulnerable, Entangled, Stunned, Bound), any situational modifiers (Range, Lighting, Cover, Target Size, Gang Up, Prone, Unarmed Defender, etc.), and any spell effects on you and their time remaining.

If a bad guy has done something in the previous Round that you must roll to avoid (like Soaking an attack, becoming un-Shaken, being Grappled, etc.), I'll mention that too. Even if you read the spoiler as soon as I post it, always re-check the spoiler immediately before acting, because something may have happened in this Round before your Turn. This should be the first roll you make (as a Free Action), before taking any Actions.

Thoughts?

The idea of the last paragraph above is to avoid things like this :

<my post>The enemy tries to Grapple you, and succeeds in their roll.
IRL time passes, maybe up to a day or three...
<player post>I roll Athletics to try and avoid it.
More time passes, this player now makes their Actions
<player post>I roll to attack my opponent.

By putting off the response roll until the player's next Turn (whether it's in this Round or the next), we don't have to wait for them to post a response to an enemy action. So it now becomes :

<my post>The enemy tries to Grapple you, and succeeds in their roll [I add that to the player's status in the Initiative spoiler].
More time passes, this player now makes their Actions
<player post>I roll Athletics to try and avoid the Grapple, and (assuming a Success) then I roll to attack my opponent.

Okay so the frontline of the heros consisted of Dáin, Stone and Grün and the frontline of the Goblins consisted of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 where 3 ended up dying that round (aka not the first round of combat).

Also when one is presented with multiple targets to again reflect the chaos of combat they roll 1d? (however many opponents they could attack) to see which opponent they actually do attack --or-- they can focus on one individual allowing the others to gain a bonus to hit them (which most do not do).

Regardless
... The 3 Goblins facing Dáin have a +1 To Hit because Stone cancels Goblin 3 leaving 2 on 1

... The 3 Goblins facing Stone have a +0 To Hit because Dain cancels Goblin 3 and Grun cancels Goblin 5 leaving 1 on 1

... Goblin 5 has a +3 To Be Hit because Stone cancels Goblin 4 leaving Grun and the 3 Tiny Monsters leaving 4 on 1

Note I do not recall who attack who in that round (as that was random) but those were the bonuses.

I hope that helps. Yeah I know it can be a bit confusing at first but really works out quite well and you end up getting a truly chaotic battle as a melee battle should actually be.

Looks good to me!

Since no one's made any objections to the TotM format rules, let's everyone go back to Gameplay and finish this combat!

I'm happy to go with the flow and see how it works.

Ceri bumps her Strength to d8.

This is our first advance, right?
Will think about it for a day or two. To go ahead and bump Str to D10 for future skill increases or bump Vigor to D8 for more survivability...

Yeah, I bumped my Strength because it helps me do more damage in combat and wear heavier armor, and on my next Advancement I can bump my Fighting so I have a better chance of hitting.

All : please remember, you can only increase any Attribute (STR, DEX, VIG, etc.) once per Rank.

That was my logic as well.

I have also decided to go ahead and take Str as my stat bump for this rank. I find doing that early gives good benefits overall. Next advance I can raise Fighting and one other skill. :)

Next rank i'll pop Vigor up for a little more toughness and survivability..

Random question - is anybody's default Benny count bigger than 3 for any reasons (Edges, Races, etc.)? I saw some pretty high Benny counts during the last 3 battles.

I think we just got lucky from Jokers. :) I don't think I have anything to add to mine.

I just got notification from Paizo that PWGM replied to their query, and has given permission for me to take over the game. So something big must be going on in his life right now...

I'll work on the advance later today.

Everyone

I am afraid that p-b-p has moved from being fun to being a chore. This is not the fault of anyone but me. I apologize for this but I do not seeing this changing anytime soon.

Thanks for taking things over Zen. I am positive you will do well.

Thanks for the fun game everyone. I hope it continues now that I am out of the way.

~Poor Wandering One

Thanks for trying. May you always make your saving throws in RL.

Hello PWGM! I hope everything is good in your world. Thank you for taking us this far!

Really sorry to see you go, your GM'ing style is one of the few very good ones I've seen over the years in PbP.

Jzero's advance to rank 2 will be to increase his vigor die from d8 to d10. This makes his toughness 8.

Thanks for the well wishes for my brother. He is in his 70s, has Parkenson's, recently had COVID, and last weekend developed a mysterious illness causing a fever and disorientation. He's living in an assisted living facility that's 500 miles away. His step daughter and her mother are doing a great job of checking on him. I'm mostly waiting on updates as they do tests.

Making a decision on what to Advance and what to say post tomorrow hopefully

Okay still looking over the possibilities for the Advance -- comparing the official Cleric advancements with the Paladin advancements while considering my more specific character.

Maybe I can help - I don't see any Novice Paladin Edges other than the Paladin one you took to become a Paladin. And your Paladin Mystic Power prevents you from taking any ordinary Arcane Background Edges. I wouldn't look at the Advancement Track examples in the book, I honestly don't understand why they picked the Advancements they did for the Paladin.

What options are you considering? I could tell you their pros and cons.

Actually no Evesk is only a Paladin of sorts. In fact he is more of a warrior cleric or a paladin/cleric hybrid based on how I envisioned him and worked things out with the previous GM (who wanted a cleric) during his creation. Further my plan to advance him is as such as well for I am literally looking at the example Paladin and Cleric to figure out his 1st Advancement which I think will be basically more spells as well as more Power Points as a Novice not sure about the 3rd Advancement yet.

Do note Evesk did take Arcane Background(Miracles) while also taking the Paladin Class as a starting point although again he will most likely not follow that verbatim. Especially since I do not think horses (aka a mount) is going to be a real thing in this campaign from what I have heard. So I am strongly thinking of taking the holy animal companion and hopefully get a Iomedae Lion as that is their favored animal, assuming that is okay with you.

Now I think you might find this of interest Sandpoint Map Legend as someone put a lot of work into making a map legend for Sandpoint.

Also with you (GM) seeming to want Evesk to be very close to The Rusty Dragon can we put the small temple to Iomedae in the house (or cluster) that is just north of The Rusty Dragon between Net Street and Cog Street? If you agree I am also going to say that because it is so close to The Rusty Dragon that the temple does not have a kitchen as they can easily just walk to The Rusty Dragon for their meals and probably have a quality relationship with the owners of The Rusty Dragon. However, I will of course need your approaval on all of that and if you do not agree with parts of it we can ignore those parts of my post.

Here is a quicker view of the various numbers and the folks associated with them and this covers all the spots which that Legend did not cover and pulls out the names from that map.
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1) Sandpoint Cathedral (Desna, Abadar, Sarenrae, Gozreh, and Erastil)
.... Proprietars: Father Abstalar Zantus, Naffer Vosk, (dead Ezakien Tobyn)
2) Sandpoint Boneyard (Naffer Vosk)
3) The White Deer (Garridan Viskalai)
4) The Way North (Veznutt Parooh)
5) Jeweler (Maver Kesk, Pennae Kesk)
6) Junker's Edge (associated with 7)
7) Gorvi's Shack (Gorvi)
8) Sage (Brodert Quink)
9) Locksmith (Volioker Briskalberd)
10) Sandpoint Garrison (Vachedi, Belor Hemlock)
11) Sandpoint Town Hall (Kendra Deverin)
12) Savah's Armory (Savah Bevaniky)
13) Risa's Place (Risa Magravi, Lanalee Margravi, Best Magravi, Vodger Magravi)
14) Rovanky Tavern (Lars Rovanky)
15) Red Dog Smithy (Das Korvut)
16) The Pillbug's Pantry (Aliver Podicker)
17) Bottled Solution (Nisk Tander)
18) Cracktooth's Tavern (Jesk Berinni)
19) House of Blue Stones (Sabyl Sorn)(dead Enderaki Sorn)
20) Sandpoint Glassworks (Tsuto Kiajitsu)
21) Sandpoint Savories (Alma Avertin, Aneka Avertin, Arika Avertin)(dead Casp Avertin)
22) The Curious Goblin (Chask Haladan)
23) House of Blue Stones (Sabyl Sorn)(dead Enderaki Sorn)
24) Carpenter's Guild (Aesrick Battlehorn)
25) Sandpoint Lumber Mill (Banny Harker)
26) General Store (Ven Vinder, Solsta Vinder, Katrine Vinder, Shayliss Vinder)
27) Turandurok Academy (Ilsoari Gandethus)
28) Madame Mvashtis's House (Niska Mvashti)
29) Grocer's Hall (Olmur Danvakus)
30) Vernah's Fine Clothing (dead Iremiel Povalli, Varnah Povalli)
31) Wheen's Wagons (Bilivar Wheen)(dead Tanethia Wheen)
32) Scarnetti Mill (Courrin Whesterwill)
33) The Hagfish (Jargie Quinn)
34) Valdemar Fishmarket (Turch Sterglus)
35) Sandpoint Open Marketplace
36) Sandpoint Meat Market (Chod Bevuk)
37) The Rusty Dragon (Ameiko Kaijitsu)
38) Goblin Squash Stables (Daviren Hosk)
39) Two Knights Brewery (Gavin Deverin)
40) Sandpoint Mercantile League (Sir Jasper Korvaski)
41) Sandpoint Boutique (Hayliss Korvaski)
42) Fatman's Feedbag (Gressel Tenniwar, Jubrayl Vishki)
43) The Pixie's Kitchen (Kaye Tesarani)
44) The Feathered Serpent (Vorvashali Voon)
45) Hannah's (Hannah Velerin)
46) Sandpoint Shipyard (Belven Valdemar)
47) House Valdemar (Ethram Valdemar, Belvinval Demar)
48) House Scarnetti (Titus Scarnetti)(dead Alamon Scarnetti)
49) House Kaijitsu (Lonjiku Kaijitsu, Ameiko Kaijitsu)(dead Rokuro Kaijitsu, Atsuii Kaijitsu)
50) House Deverin (Kendra Deverin, Vana Deverin, Gavin Deverin)(dead Amos Deverin, Fenchus Deverin, Wade Deverin)

Evesk - no problem with moving the temple.

Regarding this "dual class" you worked out with PWGM, can you tell me more about it? Is it literally the Paladin class with added spells coming from the Cleric class (well, not so much the class as the Miracles Edge)? When you get to Seasoned, are you taking the Paladin's default Mystic Powers as well?

You listed a couple of specific cantrips in your PC description - my understanding is that in SWPF a cantrip is just a weaker version of one of your existing spells that can do things related to the spell? I couldn't find "mage hand" anywhere in the SWPF core rulebook.

Also, I could not find any variation of "holy animal companion" in the SWPF core rules. Where does that come from?

Looks sheepishly around the room.

I, ah, apologize for how long I have been away. I had some personal issues, and then I was dissociating hard, and then I was dreading coming back because my brain convinces me regularly that everyone hates me.

I just want to say sorry for leaving you all with no explanation as to what happened to me for six months, and I see that we also lost a GM whilst I was away.

Thank you for having welcomed me to your table, and I'm sorry I did not work out as a player. I'm taking a break from the forums for a while and wish you lovely folks success and adventure as you play.

No I will not be taking the Paladin's Mystic Powers as that is rather useless since I already can take those as spells and will have taken most of them (if not all of them) before I get to Seasoned.

Further I will not be taking Mount at Heroic hoping to replace that with holy animal companion (not sure of the exact name) and pick up the Divine Lion or Iomedae.

Evesk - sorry, but there is no feat in SW PF called "holy animal companion", or any variation. The only Paladin feat that gives a Paladin an animal is the Mount Edge, which is an Heroic Edge (*really* don't understand that...).

The closest thing is the Beast Master Edge (any class can take it), which if you take it several times, the creature gets bigger and more powerful. You'd have to take it twice to get a creature as large as a lion. This is what's used to give the Druid an animal companion. For a third use of the Edge, I'd be willing to make the animal a Wild Card, giving it a much better chance of survival in combat.

In PF 2e, a Paladin can make a Divine Bond with an ordinary animal at 5th level (and a lion is one of the possible choices), and at 11th level the animal can become Celestial (which just gives it some special attacks and defenses). I did discover that the lion is a favored animal of Iomedae, but apparently that doesn't actually grant any in-game benefits. Is that why you're calling it a "holy" animal companion?

I even Googled ("pathfinder" "holy lion") and found *no* web pages that describe a holy lion animal Feat.

Unless you can tell me the name of the SW PF Edge that you think can give you a holy lion, Beast Master is your only option. And it doesn't grant anything special like Divine qualities.

Hope this doesn't ruin the game for you...

Mirri! Good to see you're OK. Hate you won't be joining us but I do understand. I hope everything in life turns out well for you!

GM_ZenFox42 it is found in the Savage Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide on page 37 and it is:
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Celestial Servant
Requirements: Novice, Aasimar, Beast Bond or similar ability

Rather than being a normal animal or beast, your companion or familiar hails from the heavenly realms.

This character's animal companion's type becomes magical beast (though it still counts as an Animal for purposes of spells and abilities) and it gains the following abilities:
• Armor +2
• Night Vision
• Smite Evil (as the Paladin Edge)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also yeah I was just kind of generically referring to the creature when I said holy as that was how I remembered it but yeah it was Celestial which is just to me another form of holy (aka Angels and what not).

Sadly though this does seem to require 2 Advances to acquire when all it is a slighltly modified version of Beast Bond. Perhaps we could replace the Mystic Powers (Paladin) with Celestial Servant (Paladin) thus changing the Requirements to Novice, Aasimar, Paladin and then the Paladin does not get the Mount later on.

Or maybe we move Mercy to 4th-Level and Mount to 8th-Level and replace Mount with Celestial Servant since I am not taking Mystic Powers (Paladin) since he already has Arcane Background (Miracles).

Thoughts?