I usually add such items as my character gets some cash, provided they have the encumbrance. Jzero is strong and can carry a lot, so I'll work on some of the miscellaneous items for his kit.
When I need ideas for names, I usually just go to Google and type in medieval name generator or elf name generater, etc. Lots of sites will generate a list of random names and I pick whatever strikes my fancy.
Thanks GM for that information apparently there is a different version of the Core Rules than the one I have. I have Pathfinder for SWADE 2021 version and that does not have that information on page 107. In fact it does not have that information at all.
Also it appears that your version of the Core Rules also has the 4th Language for the Iconic Cleric that is missing in my version of the book.
I will run by you the other things I find that are missing or incorrect and perhaps they have a version in that book that is correct. For instance I have the Barbarian spending 162 gp on Gear but he is only supposed to start with 150 gp -- so he has overspent by 12 gp -- not significant but definitely an error.
Oh and thanks Jzero on names and what you describe is basically what I do as well. However, I will need to decide or randomly roll what race the Acolyte is first before choosing a name and where he originally came from and such. There is a name generator for the Pathfinder World by race out there which is what I tend to use for Pathfinder World games
Okay GM I analyzed the Adventurer's Kit
Adventurer's Kit Contains : Backpack, Bedroll, Candle, Chalk, Extra Clothing, Flint and Steel, Grappling Hook, Bullseye Lantern, Small Steel Mirror, Hemp Rope 60ft, Oil, Shovel, Soap, Torches x3, Waterskin, Whetstone, Trail Rations (1 week)
Total Cost: 51.24 Total Weight: 41.25
As can be seen the Weight exceeds the limit of 18 lbs by a lot.
However, if I remove the Extra Clothing (because this one varies all over the place), Torches x3, Shovel, Grappling Hook, Reduce the Rope to 30ft, and reduce Trail Rations to 5 days -- I get
Adventurer's Kit Contains : Backpack, Bedroll, Candle, Chalk, Flint and Steel, Bullseye Lantern, Small Steel Mirror, Hemp Rope 30ft, Oil, Soap, Waterskin, Whetstone, Trail Rations (5 days)
Total Cost: 30.74 Total Weight: 16.25
Now perhaps with this version you might price the Kit at 30gp and it Weighs 16 lbs -- basically the same percentage reduction as the 51.24 to 50 but the weight is accurate and workable.
Of course I agree there were alot of items in your secondary list that would be highly useful -- however a Hatchet (instead of Hand Axe) can also be used as a Hammer thus you do not need both a Hatchet (Str+1d4 1.5gp 3 lbs about half the size of a Hand Axe) and a Hammer.
So the question is for an Adventurer's Kit what percentage cost reduction do you feel might be suitable and what things do you feel should be in it (that are not perishable aka no food) that someone might have in stock that they would be willing to sell as a packaged deal at a slight discount?
Or perhaps just chuck the concept of the Adventurer's Kit altogether (as personlly I do not see this making sense to begin with) and let folks just buy the individual items that they want from the list of available gear -- aka no discount because really adventurers are not supposed to be all that common so why would someone sell that like they are selling it all the time and thus warrant the packaged discount.
Evesk - in the SW PF Core rules, page 107, it says the Adventurer's Kit contains : Backpack, bedroll, candle, chalk, extra clothing, flint and steel, grappling hook, bullseye lantern, small mirror, hemp rope, oil, shovel, soap, 3 torches, waterskin, whetstone, 1 weeks meals.
I would just stipulate that the rope is 20 feet long instead of 60 feet (to reduce weight to 3 pounds).
I don't know where your reference got their numbers, and I'm not going to worry about any weight or cost discrepancies.
Years ago, when I was playing the real PF, I scoured the web for ideas, and came up with a list of "essential" items. Well, they were more "might come in really handy at some point" items :
** spoiler omitted **...
Good smart list. I agree. :)
Evesk - my SW PF Core Rules book is also copyrighted 2021, so I'm not sure what's going on. Does the first page of your PDF say
Pathfinder..................................Savage
.......................................For
Roleplaying Game.....................Worlds
at the top, and "Core Rules" at the bottom? And the picture is a red dragon attacking what looks like a fighter and a mage?
Sorry, but I don't have time to figure out the reasons for every apparent inconsistency in the Iconic builds.
Regarding the Adventurer's Kit, in your initial analysis, does your final total weight include the fact that the backpack itself *halves* the effective weight of all the objects in it? If not, then the effective weight is 20 pounds (rounding), which is much better but still not close to the 10 pounds listed. Not sure how PEG (the company that publishes SW) missed that by so much, unless it was intentional (giving the PC's an additional break)? Or, nobody double-checked the math of the person who came up with those numbers.
I'm not sure what you mean by the initial analysis' weight of 41 lbs as "exceeding the limit of 18 lbs by a lot" - what limit? and where did 18 come from?
I'll get back to you on what I consider a reasonable Adventurer's Kit in a day or three.
Someone stated that when you bring up the PDF there is a small "document icon" in the upper left area that if you click on it you can see the version that you have. Apparently I have version 1.0 and I am currently working on getting that updated to version 1.8 which seems to be the latest version and includes A LOT of changes (and corrections).
Yes the backpack weighs 2 lbs and its contents have been halved and added to that 2 lbs. As stated the maximum capacity of 10 lbs minus 2 lbs for the backpack is 8 lbs (8 lbs x 2 = 16 lbs) so the maximum non-reduced total weight of the kit cannot exceed 18 lbs or 16 lbs for its contents. I hope that explains those numbers.
Thanks and no rush on the Adventurer's Kit as again personally I think the concept makes absolutely no sense in the business sense as again adventurers are supposed to be rare so why would a merchant sell a pre-packaged item at a discount that is extremely low in demand. That only occurs with high demand and high volume items. Where putting together the usual high demand items into a pre-packaged bundle for easy selling makes sense. Otherwise, as I stated this makes absolutely no sense at all from an economical business point of view.
Now if someone were to walk into a shop (that had all these items) and gathered them together and went to purchase them the could haggle (Persuasion skill) for a cheaper bulk price. Then I would go about giving the discount based on the characters Persuasion skill d4 0%, d6 5%, d8 10%, d10 15%, d12 20% -- and not have it be a simple fixed priced as that would make complete business and mechanics sense.
Evesk - ah, I have version 1.6, that's what's going on. But, just because the Adventurer's Kit has a weight of 10 lbs, doesn't *necessarily* mean that's the backpack's maximum capacity. There's no max capacity specified anywhere that I can find.
ALL - how about this : if you buy an "Adventurer's Kit", you get :
Backpack : 2 lb, 20 SP
Bedroll : 5 lb, 1 SP
Blanket : 3 lb, 5 SP
Hemp Rope 30ft : 5 lb, 5 SP
3 torches : 3 lb, 3 CP
Trail Rations (5 days) : 5 lb, 25 SP
Totaling 21 pounds w/out backpack, divide by 2 for 10 pounds, plus 2 for the backpack = 12 pounds
Cost : 6 GP
And, this sounds like something some merchants might keep on hand.
For any other miscellaneous items you want to have, you don't have to list them on your inventory, because...
If you can think of something particular thing that would come in handy in a given situation :
1. If it's small and simple and cheap, and it seems likely you'd have packed it, I'll say you have it (but ask first).
2. If I'm not sure, I'll ask you to roll a related Skill or Attribute (probably Smarts) to see if you thought to purchase and pack it.
3. If the answers to the first two options are no, and you really want it, spend a Benny.
This does *not* apply (even the spending a Benny part) to specialized, expensive, or very heavy items, like lockpicks, crowbars, grappling hooks, shovels, spikes, hatchets, silk rope, etc. - those you have to explicitly put in your inventory (but, putting them in the backpack halves their weight).
Thoughts? Feedback?
Jzero - please check your PM when you're feeling up to it, thanks!
Looks like a good package and deal to me!
I like your rules on small items. Makes sense.
That reminds me. I should buy a crowbar as well...
Evesk - ah, I have version 1.6, that's what's going on. But, just because the Adventurer's Kit has a weight of 10 lbs, doesn't *necessarily* mean that's the backpack's maximum capacity. There's no max capacity specified anywhere that I can find.
No you misunderstood -- the Adventurer's Kit is stated as weighing 10 lbs subtract 2 lbs for the backpack you have 8 lbs which when you double due to the halving of the weight by the backpack we have a maximum of 16 lbs if the Adventurer's Kit is supposed to weigh 10 lbs when we are done.
ALL - how about this : if you buy an "Adventurer's Kit", you get :
Backpack : 2 lb, 20 SP
Bedroll : 5 lb, 1 SP
Blanket : 3 lb, 5 SP
Hemp Rope 30ft : 5 lb, 5 SP
3 torches : 3 lb, 3 CP
Trail Rations (5 days) : 5 lb, 25 SPTotaling 21 pounds w/out backpack, divide by 2 for 10 pounds, plus 2 for the backpack = 12 pounds
Cost : 6 GP
Okay if I go through the Core Rules I get a total cost of 21.6 gp and 13.5 lbs or (11.5 lbs plus 2 lbs for the Backpack) the problems reside perhaps in my version of the Core Rules as I have the following:
Backpack Cost 2gp Wgt 2lbs
Bedroll Cost 0.1gp Wgt 5lbs
Blanket Cost 0.5gp Wgt 3lbs
Hemp Rope 30ft Cost 0.5gp Wgt 3 lbs
Trail Rations (5 days) Cost 3.5gp Wgt 7 lbs
So a total of 23 lbs / 2 = 11.5 lbs + 2 lbs for the backpack
And, this sounds like something some merchants might keep on hand.
As I stated due to the fact that adventurers are supposed to be rare I cannot see any merchant creating such a kit as that makes no business sense.
For any other miscellaneous items you want to have, you don't have to list them on your inventory, because... If you can think of something particular thing that would come in handy in a given situation :
1. If it's small and simple and cheap, and it seems likely you'd
have packed it, I'll say you have it (but ask first).
2. If I'm not sure, I'll ask you to roll a related Skill or
Attribute (probably Smarts) to see if you thought to purchase
and pack it.
3. If the answers to the first two options are no, and you really
want it, spend a Benny.This does *not* apply (even the spending a Benny part) to specialized, expensive, or very heavy items, like lockpicks, crowbars, grappling hooks, shovels, spikes, hatchets, silk rope, etc. - those you have to explicitly put in your inventory (but, putting them in the backpack halves their weight).
This sounds quite viable although I would be inclined to add those items to my backpack either ahead time or after the fact.
I'm going to stick with my prices and weights for now (and FWIW, I have version 1.6 of the "PF for SW Core Rules" book). But your prices add up to 6.6 GP, not 21.6 GP, and your in-backpack weight adds up to 18 lb, not 23 pounds. I noticed you didn't include torches in your post, did you perhaps include them in your work, but not your post? Please let me know when you have an updated version of the book.
ALL - if a player wants to inventory *everything*, they can do that. If they're willing to use the rules I suggested to see if they have something on-hand, they can do that.
Yeah not sure how I messed that up -- must have been a bit of confusion between the post and my spreadsheet. Sorry about that.
As for the torches I think I left them out because they caused the contents of the backpack to exceed 16 lbs (or 8 lbs x 2)
As for the latest version of the book, they have not technically released it yet and are not incrementally updating the books. So you either got 1.8 when you got the book or you are stuck with whatever version you did get and the fully updated version to replace your old version is somewhere out in the future at this time.
GM: Anyone know how to insert an image into a post? My own image, not an image on a website. I think I've seen it done before...
Yes you have to host that image somewhere on the internet I use a free one and then you use the following:
{url=https://image.com}Description Text{/url}
Replace { } with [ ]
I knew about that method, but I'd swear that someone sent me a PM or post in the last few weeks with an image embedded in it. I'll just use the standard method...
I recovered from COVID but now I've got a cold and lots of grading to do before the end of the term this week. I hope I'll be able to get back to regular posting soon.
Okay just so you know Jzero while you might be partially recovered you are not fully recovered for 90 days from when you acquired it. So do not get any Covid vaccines during that time period.
I have access to the maps in the Pathfinder AP books. I'd suggest letting me post a link to a map. I'll put squares to cover the things we haven't seen inside yet. We don't need to use tokens and worry about positions, but the map can give a quick idea of what is where. Once there is an encounter, we can go to theater of the mind.
I'll put a link in Jzero's header and people can take a look.
It's set so anyone clicking on the link in Jzero's Header (map), can view but not edit the map. I can edit it, however and I can give the GM a link allowing him to edit if desired.
Having seen the map, I have an idea of the layout, so I won't make decisions about which way to go when there are options. As doors are opened, I'll adjust the spoilers to allow a view of each room and hall. This will save the GM having to describe everything and players can have a mental idea of the layout without having to use the map for melee actions. I have not put map tokens down, although we can add a marker to show where the general party is.
It looks like doors into the building are located at A1 (which is the round area to the NW), A12 (West facing door at the south east side), A16 (double doors near where the map has A15), and A18 (double doors at the NW facing NE).
Blue-tinted rectangles are windows.
Thank you so much for doing that!!!
Any thoughts on how to handle one PC seeing something that no one else sees for the moment, like Jzero on the roof looking down into A1? Just describe it to them verbally, and leave it blacked out?
Whatever works best for RP. I'd say until we get a detailed description of an area, it remains blocked from view. If only one can see and cannot communicate with the others, the description can be spoilered, in which case, the area remains blocked until the PC shares the information.
Spoilers! Duh (slapping side of head with palm)! :)
ALL - how do you want to handle group decisions like which door to pick? There's the famous "rule of two" - as soon as any 2 players make the same decision, that's the one that's taken. That speeds things up, but not everyone gets a "vote". Is everyone ok with that, or is there some other method anyone would like to suggest?
With only three active players, the rule of two means there is a majority in favor of the indicated path. If we are checking posts regularly, we can have discussions when anyone has a serious objection to what the other two are planning.
A good rule of thumb for these forum games. :)
Only 3 players we still seem to have 4 players
For decisions like which door to take, etc., Ceri won't post anything.
If all four of you listen at a door, there's a 99.4% that someone will succeed. While that may be a reasonable thing to do in-game, it's meta-gaming the system.
I'd like one PC to be the "designated listener". Evesk has a d4 Notice, and Ceri won't be doing them, so it's down to Jzero and Velrek. Please both of you post, either volunteering or saying the other guy is ok. If you both volunteer, I'll roll a dice at home to pick who listens.
We both have a D6 in Notice. We'll swap off. Jzero can go first since he thought of it. I'll take the next one.
You know, NOTHING bad ever happens while listening to a door. :)
Wouldn't it be easier if one player were to do it consistently? With PbP, it might be days between Listen checks, and you'd have to remember who did it last, to know when you're up. If one player does it all the time, there can be no confusion. But it's up to the both of you...
Jzero also said "check for traps". I would suggest that trap checking be Notice-2 (because they're supposed to be hidden), but that I roll it for you, without posting them (I'll just use Preview). If it's a Success, I'll tell you there's a trap nearby, if it's a Raise I'll tell you how to disarm it. Sound good?
Jzero is willing to take listening duties, but I think it makes the game move faster if we let the GM roll for us whenever he knows there is actually something to hear. When I GM, I put these rolls under a spoiler I label "Behind the screen" in reference to a tabletop game where the GM rolls the dice and no one can see the outcome.
This way, if the GM says no one detects anything, we don't know if it is because there was nothing to detect or the listener just rolled low.
If it were me, I'd set up a text file with the following (with square brackets in place of curly brackets)
{spoiler=Behind the Screen}
Jzero: {dice=Notice}1d6{/dice}
{dice=Wild}1d6{/dice}
{/spoiler}
This makes it a quick copy and paste, to get the results. Even when there is nothing to detect, you can quickly add it to the top of a post, so we don't know that.
I'll roll in gameplay posts if you prefer, but I'm okay with the GM doing rolls like that to speed the game and to prevent metagaming inferences.
EDIT: I suppose there could be cases where one might want to use a Benny to reroll, but that would imply we have some clues that getting a success on the listen check is vital, which we usually would not know. So I'm willing to forego that option and let the GM roll in secret.
OK. Sounds good to me.
Only 3 players we still seem to have 4 players
Mirri dropped out and Ceri is an NPC. That leaves Jzero, Evesk, and Velrek, no?
Since I've got access to the map, although I'm avoiding reading text details about what's in the rooms, I still could be metagaming, since I have some idea where the halls and rooms are. So If Jzero is asked to chose a door, I'll roll random. That's why I suggested Velrek and Evesk choose the doors we try, when there is a choice.
Jzero also said "check for traps". I would suggest that trap checking be Notice-2 (because they're supposed to be hidden), but that I roll it for you, without posting them (I'll just use Preview). If it's a Success, I'll tell you there's a trap nearby, if it's a Raise I'll tell you how to disarm it. Sound good?
I'd suggest checking for traps be a normal notice, but the GM/adventure source could raise the TN for success if the trap would be hard to notice. That would keep things simpler for the person rolling the check.
If anyone had Thievery skill, I'd suggest allowing that as a detect traps skill since the skill includes disarming traps and knowing how traps work would give one a better chance of noticing one, I would think. No one has that skill, however.
I would suggest the GM do a search through the source book for 'trap' to see if they indicate what kind of roll is needed to detect the trap and whether they ever adjust the target number for a trap that is easier or harder to detect than normal.
One more thing:
If there are two rooms we could choose at some point, and one is basically just a storage room with nothing interesting for the plot or RP, I'd suggest the GM could just say, "You check the north door, but it's just a storage closet with nothing useful in it." That would save a few days worth of stating which door the check, rolling for listening or traps, and waiting for the GM to tell us there is nothing of note in the room.
That can make a dungeon crawl in PBP more efficient and focus the role play on rooms where it matters. Just a suggestion, however.
I'll address the other points you made in your recent posts, but your last suggestion is an *excellent* idea. I'll start right now...
I think it makes the game move faster if we let the GM roll for us whenever he knows there is actually something to hear.
I agree, I'll do it from now on if no one has any objections.
When I GM, I put these rolls under a spoiler. This way, if the GM says no one detects anything, we don't know if it is because there was nothing to detect or the listener just rolled low.
Problem is, whenever there's a spoiler, there's going to be someone who peeks behind it (is that realistic or cynical? - I don't know...).
For traps, I was going to roll the dice in the Preview, but delete the actual roll from the final post. This is so that a Detect Traps spoiler won't tell you there *may* be a trap.
Notice rolls are a little different because you're always doing them at every door, but I'd still prefer to only make the roll in the Preview. This is so that for the vast majority of doors *without* creatures behind them, I don't have to do anything. I promise to be honest about them. Anyone have any objections to that?
...but the GM/adventure source could raise the TN for success if the trap would be hard to notice.
That's thinking like Pathfinder, not SW. SW always put the penalty on the die roll, because their Target Number for a Success is *always* 4 (except when attacking with a melee weapon).
I would suggest the GM do a search through the source book for 'trap' to see if they indicate what kind of roll is needed to detect the trap and whether they ever adjust the target number for a trap that is easier or harder to detect than normal.
Done and done. The AP says that trap checks are a Notice roll, and assigns them penalties to be noticed.
A Thievery skill roll is needed to disarm them (also with a penalty). We'll have to figure out as a group how to deal with this. Does anyone have Boost/Lower Trait? On a Raise, anyone's Thievery could be a d6. But the penalties are usually -2 or -4, which with only a d6 wouldn't Succeed very often.
I have no objections to the GM keeping their rolls completely hidden if it makes them feel better about them. Personally I can see the roll and not see the roll and it would actually not make a difference to me as I always only go off of what my player knows and does not know. I find meta-gaming puts bad colors into the character ;-)
That being said, Evesk does have a sort of commanding appearance so if you all are comfortable with it I am willing to step up and be a sort of in-game leader (something I have done numerous times before quite successfully) as I do my best as a player to make sure everyone gets their chance to have the lime light and such. Further neither Evesk nor I would ignore advice from another and would in fact like to get that advice so as to check their own thinking.
Evesk has Boost Trait
When I GM using the techniques described above, I don't worry about people peaking behind spoilers. I've never suspected a player was gaining illicit metagame information. I expect people curious about the rolls or who don't necessarily trust the GM may peek, usually after the game as moved on to a point nothing can be spoiled.
I prefer to not get metagaming information for the same reason I don't read advance information about movies and TV shows I look forward to watching. But if you're worried about peeking, I trust you to make the rolls without making them available for us to see.
As the saying goes, it's called role playing, not roll playing. The dice are a means to an end. The story's the thing.
It's really not about trusting the players, it's just that if I say I'm going to make Preview rolls and not show the results in Spoilers, then if there's no roll to make (which is the vast majority of the time), I don't have to do a thing! It's about keeping my GM-workload down to a minimum.
So, let's talk about picking locks and disarming traps. One of the (many) problems I had with PF was that the class system meant you *had* to have practically one of every kind of basic class in order to do your adventures successfully. Unfortunately, that aspect of the system has stayed with SW PF.
There *will* be locks to pick and traps to disarm, but nobody in the group has the Thievery skill. Jzero has said that his PC's philosophy would prevent him from taking it, as I expect Evesk would too. And I see no reason to ask Velrek to put his Advancements toward something that won't...well...advance his character concept.
There's no "class" restrictions on the Skill, so I'll have Ceri put a couple of Advancements into it. If we need the skill before we get Advancements, I'll re-arrange her stats to give her Thievery retroactively. I actually kind of like that, it broadens her character concept - why would she have that skill? Does she ever engage in thievery when not on adventures, which would make her more Chaotic than Lawful?
Sound good?
I'm not sure how SW wands work, but if Ceri could have a wand that would give the target the thievery skill at d6 or d8 for few rounds, that would make the skill available as needed.
I knew that Ceri was more than a pretty face. Thievery indeed!
Kidding. Velrek gives not a darn. :)
But, agreed.I could see Velrek having a little of it character wise, being a little bit of a Conan style adventurer when needed but it would take away from advances he'd probably get a lot more use from...
Hey instead of mucking with Ceri what if you got another player to join us with the purpose of playing someone with that skill and perhaps any other skills that we might be missing. Like a Cleric of a more Rogue like deity perhaps or just a Rogue.
Although Jzero's idea seemed like an appropriate solution as well but I still think the addition of another PC might be the best solution.
I agree that another player would be the best solution. Experience shows that it can take a while to get a player interested and ready to create a character. We tend to get players who are new to Savage Worlds so it takes time got get them up to speed. It's up to the GM if he wants to deal with that.
I can always make a post to Recruitment saying it's open again.
But I kind of like the idea of Ceri having a wand of Boost Trait/Thievery, it'd be a big help at the right times.
Let me look into the cost of such a wand and post tomorrow...
So, a wand of Boost Trait costs 100 gp *per charge*. I have no idea how many times you'll have to open a locked door, but with the money Ceri has right now, she could buy a wand with 3 charges. And buy more charges as we get loot to sell.
In addition, the charges cannot be made with a Raise to the roll, so it would boost Ceri's default d4-2 up to only d4. I'd have to get her ordinary skill level up to at least a d4 (d6 would be better) anyway.
I think it would probably be best to just spend a couple of Advancements to get her Thievery skill up to d6, and buy the wand. Because of the penalties due to the lock, a d8-2 would have a 50% chance of succeeding.
I can re-open enrollment too, but there's not many SW players on these Paizo boards, so I wouldn't expect a response any time soon.
Thoughts?
I would definitely open recruitment as I was new to SW and picked it up rather quickly and just about anyone else could as well. Further I found the system to be very interesting and quite playable.
So depending on how one words the recruitment thread perhaps getting someone might not be that difficult. Again I find the system to be rather friendly and if someone needs help and you do not have time to do so, I would be more than happy to step in and help them create a character.
As for Ceri learning Thievery that to me greatly depends on the personality you had in mind for her more than it does anything else. To me fudging a concept just to make things work seems to me to be the wrong kind of thing to do. However, then again she is basically an NPC now so that is their purpose.
A lot of PBP games are hosted on Discord. If you have an account, you could search to see if there are any SW players and advertise the opening there. I have an account and could do that for you if you prefer.
Evesk - I have made a post in Recruitment. And thanks for the offer, but I have plenty of time to help someone new to SW create their PC. And I can totally see Ceri having had to learn to pick locks when she was adventuring on her own (and she wouldn't use it for unlawful purposes), so I don't think I'm fudging anything.
Jzero - I don't think I have a Discord account, but I'd like to wait a bit to see if there's any response here before asking you to put a Recruitment post in there. But in the meantime could you try to get a feel for how many games there are in SW?
Evesk, Velrek - please let me know what your "default" use of your shield is in combat. Do you always draw and use it, or something else? Thanks!
The default is pulling the great sword. It's a 'big stick' for sure and gives him +1 parry. :)
The shield is more for extremely tough opponents where that extra 'armor' might be needed.
Evesk is almost always uses his shield in all forms of combat. As he usually does not need an extra hand from what I understand of the mechanics to this game.
Although, if I am wrong please let me know.