A more Savage Sandpoint. A new look at an old friend.

Game Master ZenFox42

Good luck, Mirri/Colorfoot. Sometimes the hardest part of roleplaying hobby is having a way to play while trying to be true to all the RL obligations and interests. It doesn't always work out. I'd be happy to welcome you back if you ever choose to dip back into the stream, hard no hard feelings.

First off, I can tell I'm going to have to buy the SWPF APG. I didn't need it as a player, but I'm going to need it as a GM.

It seems to me that Celestial Servant is more like Beast Master than Beast Bond. Both can give an animal companion, and repeated uses of Beast Master make it more powerful. And it does say for prerequisites "Beast Bond or similar" - I'll come back to that in a minute. Celestial Servant gives the companion three bonuses, the equivalent of taking Beast Master *four* times, so it makes sense that there should be some prerequiste.

So I'm thinking : Beast Master to get the companion (and satisfy the "or similar" prerequiste for Celestial Servant), Celestial Servant to make it "holy" and give it all those bonuses, and I'll waive having to take Beast Master again to get the Size you need for a lion (which is by RAW). Sound good?

Okay well Beast Bond is found in the Core Guidelines on page 87 as a Weird Edge and states the following:

Beast Bond
Requirements: Novice
Some individuals have an extraordinary bond with their animal companions. These characters may spend thei own Bennies for any animals under their control, including mounts, pets, familiars, and so on.

This of course immediately proceeds the Beast Master Edge within the book but is not required by Beast Master. Although I do kind of concur that Beast Master as a prerequisite for Celestial Servant does make better sense as it does do a bit more than just Beast Bond and has a bit more prerequisites.

Okay I am pretty sure that I am going to take more Spells and I have the following Spells currently: Burst, Healing, and Relief

And I am thinking about picking up: Smite, ??? but not sure what other Novice Spell I would take does anyone have a solid suggestion as to a another good spell to take?

I was thinking about:

Boost/Lower Trait
--or--
Summon Ally or Summon Monster (and summon a young celestial lion -- aka whatever the parameters are for the creature summoned with an appropriate asthetic wrapper -- in preparation for gaining one as an animal companion.

Evesk - you'll have to make that decision yourself, but here's the trade-offs :

Boost Trait is a solid and very versatile Power, able to increase *any* Attribute or Skill for you or your comrades, which can come in very handy in combat.

Summoning a monster to fight for you adds another member to your team for a combat. A large cat has Fighting d6, Damage d6+d8, Parry 5 and Toughness 6, which is about where most of the PCs are right now, but over time (probably a very long time IRL) the cat will become weaker and weaker compared to the rest of the party. Of course, you can always summon any monster on the list, and at higher Ranks you can summon more powerful monsters, they just can't be lions.

All - I'm discovering that when I was only running a PC, I read up on only those rules and options that applied to the PC. But now, as GM, I'm realizing that I'm eventually probably going to have to read up on all your PC's classes. For example, I re-wrote my previous post to Evesk about 3 times as I read about Clerics and my understanding of them improved (and I had to buy the SWPF APG to do it). So if I make a call about your PC that goes against Da Rules, please be patient with me and do not hesitate to point out the relevant rules that support what you're doing, thanks!

No worries. You are moving things along at a nice pace so feel free to take any time you need.
While i've played Savage Worlds a good bit, this is the first time I've actually been able to play SW Pathfinder. Feel free to admonish me if I mess something up. :)

And seriously, I think I talk for all of us when I say if you need any help, just let us know.

Evesk Boost/Lower can be very powerful as we saw in the Goblin fight. An extra body from a summon is also a game changer. Either are fine choices.

I'm very experienced with Pathfinder and Golarion (the game world) but not so experienced with SW. I have a lot of the books that detail regions of the world, religions, races, history, etc. If you need some background, I can provide a lot of info. I also have the SW PF Worlds Companion.

These days my memory is like a sieve (well, it's always been, but it's worse now that I'm older), so reading a bunch of world details probably wouldn't be worth it.

But, tell me what the SW PF Worlds Companion is all about, please!

Okay settleded on my Advance:
New Powers (Boost Trait[Limited], Smite)(Prestidigitation)

Note Prestidigitation is a Complex Cantrip and when you take the New Power Edge you get your usual 2 Powers but you also get 1 Complex Cantrip if you have an Arcane Background.

Also if anyone else has an Arcane Background you get 2 Complex Cantrips at the start. This is covered under the Savage Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide on page 99 in case you missed it.

Also GM_ZenFox42 Pathfinder has things associated with deities that are not class specific that any vowed follower can invoke on a daily basis. Are you familiar with these. I realize these would need to be tweaked most likely for Savage Pathfinder but they do add a bit more of a religious flavor to the game. The easy one is the Obediance and the tough one to get is Divine Gift I can supply more information on these as in how pathfinder runs them if you need but here are the two for Iomedae. Oh and they also have something called Deific Obediance Boons but I would have to look into those more to figure out what those are all about.

Obedience: Hold your primary weapon (Long Sword) in front of you and hang a holy symbol of Iomedae from it. Kneel while focusing on the holy symbol, pray for guidance and protection from the Inheritor, and swear to follow her teachings. Gain +4 sacred bonus on Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility) checks.

I would guess maybe the above would require a Faith check to pull off with perhaps only a +2 Scared Bonus to Persuasion and Common Knowledge (Nobility), with a +3 or +4 with a raise.

Divine Gift: Not every follower gets this it is kind of semi-special but if given. By spending 10 minutes in prayer to Iomedae (this may take place during daily preparation of spells), a character can activate a Holy Aura or Shield of Law effect on themselves (CL 20th) that lasts for the next 12 hours.

I would guess this one would again require a Faith check to pull off with a different Power being invoked or we could make a version of those for Savage Pathfinder.

Lastly I perfectly understand you saying no as you already have a lot to juggle up front but my thought is it never hurts to ask.

GM_ZenFox42 wrote: Hey, have you three played this Adventure Path before??? ;)

No and sort-of yes. This is to say I am playing this in a Pathfinder 1e PbP game right now, however, I came into the game late taking over an existing character and I missed like the official module stuff. The group had done the Goblin Combat, the Glassworks, and some place that had prisoners and a bad person. However, I came in at the tail end of the prisoner thing, basically just helped rescue some prisoners so virturally nothing about that.

Then the game shifted to character background adventure stuff, aka nothing directly to do with the module from what I understand. So while I am familiar with Sandpoint and some of its inhabitants that is about it. I am familiar with Galorian and some of its background as I did research for that character and this one so that I could better roleplay them and give them a bit more of a background but my other character is a Rogue/Wizard so nothing like Evesk. Further we have not even gotten back into the module yet as far as I know and we still have to finish looting the place where the prisoners were.

That all being said, I roleplay my characters (and do not metagame) they operate strictly off what they know and do not know. The stuff I stated about the Goblin raid seemed a fairly foregone conclusion otherwise the general information on Sandpoint would have covered them suffering raids by Goblins. So just a guess on my part.

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Different question applying Limited to the Smite Power would initially restricting it to just Long Swords (aka my deity's favored weapon) be considered Limited. I know that applying Personal to the Smite Power would initially restrict to just his own weapon but I thought the themed Long Swords would be appropriate for him.

Evesk - the thing I like most about core SW is its simplicity. Sure there are only 50 or so Powers, but with Trappings and imagination you have access to practically all the spell effects in PF (one SW player even wrote a document about how to do that).

IMHO, PF (not SWPF) just kept adding and adding all kinds of new garbage, I'm thinking to keep players using the game once they got bored with the original core classes (that is admittedly a cynical view, but is one of the *many* reasons I quit playing PF - there's just too many options). Note that SW never had to do that, because since it doesn't have classes, you can mix-and-match a relatively few Edges, Skills, and Powers to your heart's content to get an infinite variety of PCs.

What I like about SWPF is that they stripped PF down to the bare minimum, while keeping the "flavor" of PC classes and gameplay. Before I got the APG, I was pleasantly surprised that Cantrips in the SWPF core rules were just any minor effect you could reasonably get from one of your existing Powers, totally in-line with SW's philosophy. I was actually sad to see that in the APG, they formally defined some Cantrips outright (even if there are only 7 of them).

Also, when converting PF to SW it's hard to achieve balance - the +4 from Obedience is a 20% bonus in PF, while in SW, a +1 gives an 11% bonus on a d8, but a +2 virtually *guarantees* success!

Which is a long-winded way of saying, I really don't want to add more layers of stuff on top of what's already there, especially if it requires conversion. So I'm really sorry, but I'm not interested in adding whatever kind of thing Obedience and Divine Gift is, or Deific Obedience Boons. Hope you'll understand.
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Regarding Limited - first off, where is it defined in the books? I found several different "Limitations" in the SWPF Core rules on page 168, which discusses Range, which is what you're talking about, but I want to (literally) be on the same page as you. Until I hear back, I'm going to assume you're talking about the Range and Self Limitations.

So, by RAW Smite has an optional Limitation of Personal (Self) which means it can only be cast on the weapon you're holding. I see you have a -1 PP for Smite already, so I'm assuming that's what that's from. If I understand correctly, you want to further restrict it to longswords, but since Limitations are permanent per Power, that would also mean that you could *never* use Smite with your warhammer - is that really what you want?

First as I think I stated I would fully understand you saying No to my request but as my philosophy dictates it never hurts to ask. For I fully understand you saying No but if I assume you would say No when you might say Yes I artificially limit the potential of the game that I could be playing due to a bad assumption.

Further note I have no problem with putting forth the effort to help balance those new elements if you ever change your mind. Which is to say, you would not be the only one putting effort forth to maybe merge those elements into the game. For instance maybe getting Divine Gift or Deific Obediance Boons might require being bought with an Advance due to what they provide. Still that is only important if you ever entertain the idea of maybe including them later on. Perhaps they could even be submitted to the company that owns Savage Pathfinder.

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Next let us look at Limitations

Personal: The Range of the Power becomes Self (if its a Range Touch otherwise see the Range Limitation). If this is cast on an object (such as Smite) it means one's own objects only.

Okay so I rewrote that slightly to make it more succinct and clear but that is basically what it says. So if I take the Personal Limitation then I can only cast Smite upon all my own weapons UNLESS I use a modifier when casting the spell to allow me to do otherwise. Because while it does state that the Power with a Limitation always has the Limitation that really just means you cannot buy off the Limitation later on but you can add an Advance to it (to sort-of negate the Limitation) or, of course, you can still apply Modifiers to the Power as usual to temporarily change the power.

Aspect: The caster can only access one aspect of a Power that has more than one choice (such as Boost/Lower or Smite [All Weapons]).

I included Smite [All Weapons] here because Smite not only lets you cast it on your own weapon but everyone else's weapons (which is covered by Limitation Personal) but it also lets you cast it on all weapon types. So if I took Limitation Aspect [Long Swords] then I could only cast it on Long Swords unless I applied an Advance to permanently change it or if I use a Modifier to temporarily change it.

So to help with this let us look at what the Limitation mechanically does versus what a Modifier mechanically does (which I think you are aware of but covering it for completeness and for those that might not be fully aware). The mechanics for the Limitation which restricts what a Power can due reduces the cost permanently by 1 Power Point while a Modifier which is temporary increases the Power Point cost by 1 or more points.

So basically the Modifier can be used to temporarily negate some of the Limitation (or all of it depending on the Limitation) by increasing the cost of the Power back to its original cost or more.

Note I have stressed temporarily numerous times because that is the versatile element that you can apply to any Power (aka spell) regardless of Limitations but only on a per casting basis.

So unless I am totally misreading the Guidelines as Written (GaW) then basically yes I understand the Limitation is permanently applied to the base Power (aka spell) but one can always apply a Modifier to that Power to alter it temporarily for a single casting.

Thus yes if I applied the Limitation Aspect [Long Sword] to the Smite Power then the Smite Power when I cast it on anyone's Long Sword including my own it costs me 1 Power Point (which seems quite appropriate to a follower of Iomedae as not only is the Long Sword her favored weapon but it is rather important to the basis of her religion) but if I wanted to cast it on a War Hammer (regardless of who own's that War Hammer) I would have to apply a temporary Modifier to it that would increase the Cost to 2 Power Points or I would have to apply an Advance to it later on to Negate the Limitation of only Long Swords without increasing the Power Point Cost.

Please do let me know if I am not seeing this correctly.

These days my memory is like a sieve (well, it's always been, but it's worse now that I'm older), so reading a bunch of world details probably wouldn't be worth it.

But, tell me what the SW PF Worlds Companion is all about, please!

It is a sourcebook with information on the PF game world of Golarion.

Most of these things can also be quickly found by searching for a particular country, faction, deity or religion. There are a couple of PF wiki sites with the same information.

When players reach the seasoned level, there are some prestige edges that have three levels, for seasoned, veteran, and heroic levels. There are a few weapons, armors, and magic items. Everything else can be found online. It's mostly a resource for someone who wants to come up with homebrew adventures or campaigns. The sourcebook for Rise of the Runelords provides everything a GM really needs.

For myself, I have skimmed the AP summary, and so I know a few of the themes that will become prominent. But I'm not roleplaying any of that.

Evesk = ok, I understood everything you said. So, the only Modifier that affects the Range Limitation is :

Range : Double the power’s listed Range for 1 Power Point, or triple it for +2. This modifier may not be used on powers with a Range of Touch.

Since Touch and Personal are two different Ranges, and SW rules are *very* literal, and you're using the Personal Limitation, I see no reason why you can't do what you described, it's RAW.

All - I'd like some feedback : how's the posting rate? So far, at least one person has posted every day, and on some days more than one person posts.

Too fast? Just right?

Also, is anybody generally less likely to post over the weekends for whatever reason? If so, I'll slow down my posting then too so nobody gets behind.

I'd appreciate it if everyone chimes in, thanks!

I'm good. I am usually able to check in a few times daily during the week. Some weekends we have plans and sometimes my daughter is over for the weekend and I may only be checking once in the morning.

I am similar to Velrek, as I work from home on a computer so I am almost always available for quicker responses while longer stuff does not always happen.

I'm trying to get back into the habit of checking and posting daily. When PWGM was the GM, things were so slow for so long, I tended to delay checking on any new posts since it would usually go more than a week between opportunities to post an action. Now that things are picking up, I'll check more often and post daily.

Please bear with me - I don't have time to look at every PC's complete build and cross-reference everything in the Core Rules to determine some of the numbers you've got listed, so I'm counting on the player's knowledge of their PC to help me out...

Evesk - looking at your "tag line" (the line of stats below your PC's name on every post), you have Parry 6(8). - under what conditions does it become 8 (like by casting a spell, etc.)? Please add those conditions in the tag line, like "Parry 6 (8 with XXX)", thanks!

Also, you have Toughness 6(9), which isn't standard SW format. Looking over your PC, with a Vigor of d6, that would give you a natural Toughness of 5. With chainmail, that becomes 8(3) (8 is total, (3) is how much of it is due to armor, in case you're attacked with an AP weapon). Is there anything else you have that increases your Toughness?

Valrek - in your tag line, you have Toughness 10(3). With your Vigor of d6, that is a natural 5. With scalemail, that's 8(3). Is there anything else you have that increases your Toughness?

Heh. That was me being temporarily really bad at math. I raised Str up and popped Toughness up incorrectly, then realized it a few minutes later and thought I had changed it back and I did, just not on the tag line. :)

It's actually 9 (3) due to Brawny edge.

Good catch.

I just found out something amusing (to me, anyway :). If you line up Ceri (the magic-user), then Evesk (Paladin), then Jzero (HTH fighter) and Velrek (pure fighter), our Parry's increment by one from each to the next, and our Toughnesses increase as you go, to. I'd imagine our max damages would get bigger as you go as well.

Guess SW kept the flavor of PF!

Parry 8 (2 coming from Shield)

As Parry = Base(2) + Fighting(d8/2) + Medium Shield(2)

Toughness 9 (3 coming from Armor)

As Toughness = Base(2) + Vigor(d6/2) + Size 1(Base 0 + 1 from Brawny)

Evesk - so, I can assume that you're always holding your shield in combat? Since you can ready two items as a Free Action, that should not penalize you when combats start.

In the Round 2 post, I was going to say "Don't forget to always check your Spoiler immediately before posting your Actions. Something could have happened to you earlier in this Turn before your Action". But I just realized that I can't edit old Spoilers. I guess if anyone's status changes during combat, I'll post a new Spoiler for the PC affected. And as an added bonus, that new Spoiler will automatically remind you to check it.

As a follow-up on my previous post, before you post your action, now it's important to skim all the posts from the current Initiative post to the most current post, looking for a Spoiler with your PC's name in it.

Jzero, just curious - what's the +1 Fighting from?

Jzero's kick seriously rattles its bones, but it doesn't fall apart (it's Shaken).

It's a monk thing: UNARMED STRIKE: Monks gain +1 to Fighting attacks when attacking unarmed and AP +2.

Question about damage.

From SWADE: If the damage roll is less than the target’s Toughness, the victim is beaten up a bit but there’s no game effect. If the damage is equal to or greater than his Toughness, he’s Shaken. Each raise on the damage roll also inflicts a Wound.

So if the toughness is 6, is a raise on damage at 10? Or do you have to get to 12, 2x toughness?

Yes unless he needs to do otherwise I do not see why he would not always hold his shield especially since his two weapons are both one-handed weapons.

Just for clarity, Evesk was answering an earlier question of mine, not responding to Jzero's post.

Jzero - I just count from Toughness in groups of 4. If Toughness is 6 :
6 7 8 9 = Shaken
10 11 12 13 = 1 Wound
14 15 16 17 = 2 Wounds
etc.

Check. Thanks.

Jzero used one benny so he should have just 2 let.

Thanks! Catching all the things I need to track in the posts is harder than I thought.

If it is not obvious, Jzero is channeling the spirit of Kwei Chang Caine of the original Kung Fu series. One of my favorite lines came at the end of an adventure in which Caine helps a widow obtain her rightful inheritance when evil ranchers try to steal it from her. She asks Caine, "What would you do if you came into a lot of money?"

Caine: "I would continue to look for myself."

Widow: "I didn't know you had to look for that."

Caine: "It is the only thing."

Jzero will be a bit more settled, but he will help people who need it.

I will be out of town this weekend at a Steampunk convention. Will probably not post until Sunday night. 'Bot as needed.

Somehow I deleted the folder that I had all my information in for this game so I went about rebuilding it.

In doing this I once more did a compare between the Cleric and the Paladin as my character is a sort of a highbred of the two and I had intially mapped out my character's potential progresssion up to level 20.

In doing so I discovered something within their Iconic Character examples.

First the Paladin seems to use 8 points to advance their Attributes but a starting character is only supposed to get 5. While the Cleric uses 7 points. Thus both of these iconic characters are illegal when it comes to their starting attributes or at least seem to be -- as do the rest of the iconic classes.

Iconic Barbarian Attributes: 8
Iconic Bard Attributes: 6
Iconic Druid Attributes: 6
Iconic Fighter Attributes: 7
Iconic Monk Attributes: 8
Iconic Ranger Attributes: 7
Iconic Rogue Attributes: 7
Iconic Sorcerer Attributes: 6
Iconic Wizard Attributes: 7

Next I did the same for their skills the Paladin seems to get short changed as they only seem to have spent 11 points while the Cleric seems to have spent 13 points and this is including their Faith starting at a d4 due to their Arcane (Miracle) bonus and here are the rest of the iconic classes starting skill points.

Iconic Barbarian Skills: 12 <- good
Iconic Bard Skills: 15
Iconic Druid Skills: 17
Iconic Fighter Attributes: 12 <- good
Iconic Monk Attributes: 12 <- good
Iconic Ranger Attributes: 12 <- good
Iconic Rogue Skills: 13
Iconic Sorcerer Attributes: 12 <- good
Iconic Wizard Skills: 19

Now while these are not per se official characters one would think that they would provide examples that utilize the guidelines not break them.

I put this up to ask, please check my numbers as I find that a bit discouraging when the iconic classes cannot be made as they are presented by using the actual guidelines.

I came down with COVID over the weekend, so my posting will be less frequent for a few days. I'll try to make sufficient posts to keep things moving, but 'bot me if needed. My symptoms are not life threatening, just annoying (sore throat, some coughing, slight fever). Hope to be better soon.

Really sorry to hear that. Just curious, were you vaccinated, and if so, how many times?

Evesk - just looking at the Barbarian's Attributes :

d8 +2
d4
d6 +1
d10 +3
d8 +2

Is indeed 8 Attribute points. But...

She gets a +1 die to STR from her Barbarian Fury for free, bringing total Attribute points down to 7.

She has 3 Hindrances, which gives her 2 "creation" points, which can bump one Attribute up by 1.

She has 2 Edges, but gets one of those for free because she's Human, so she has another 2 "creation" points, which can bump one Attribute up by 1.

5+1+1 = 7

I suspect the other discrepancies are also due to all the subtle interactions between racial bonuses, class bonuses, Edge bonuses, etc.

Ah okay thanks I was a bit concerned about it but seeing this detail on the Barbarian probably means the others are correct but equally obfuscated.

Thus it would have been really nice had they completley outlined how they built each one of these others it does seem to require a bit of sleuthing.

That being said can you look at the Wizard. I mean with potentially 7 Attribute Points and 19 Skill points I am not seeing how that one plays out easily. Still I could be missing something in its make-up that I was not aware of.

Thanks in advance.

Looked through the PF SW rules on magic items and I think Velrek might just upgrade his short bow to a compound bow. :)
Could he sell his current bow for a gold or two? Unless someone else in the party can make use of it...

Velrek - standard D&D rules are that you can sell an item for half what you paid for it.

Evesk - will get to the Wizard tomorrow...

Vaccinated and boosted several times. I failed to update the vaccine prior to going to the convention, so this may be a new strain that isn't affected by the vaccines I've received.

Now my wife also has it. I'll not have any more posts to make until the next event commences.

Yeah I was not able to update my vaccination prior to going to Florida (Covid zone) and of course caught that new strain.

Evesk - the Wizard has 6 "creation" points from his two Hindrances (4 points) and the fact that both his Edges are free (Human, Wizard), so 2 more points from the unused spare Edge. Four of these are used towards Attributes, which is why they total to 7 (+2 over the given 5), and the other two, along with the 5 from the Elderly Hindrance are used to get the 12+2+5=19 Skill Points.

Velrek - standard D&D rules are that you can sell an item for half what you paid for it.

Evesk - will get to the Wizard tomorrow...

Cool. Didn't want to assume. :)

And now I feel like I might need to check on a booster. It's been a while.

Thanks greatly GM_ZenFox42 that pretty much settles my concerns as I am sure the rest are also covered in a non-obvious (aka detail outlined) way. It also helps me to understand the guidelines better as well.

Actually, upon re-reading my explanation, I realized that Edges come from the "creation points" from Hindrances, they're not automatic, so now I think that if he used all 4 "creation points" for his Attributes, he wouldn't have any left over to get his Skills to where they are. But I don't have any more time to think about it right now...

You might try Googling
"savage worlds" "pathfinder" "wizard" "iconic"
(with the double quotes) to see if anyone else has spotted any problems.

So far I have not found anything but still looking however I did want to give you a heads up in my progression plans and also get your feed back as well.

2nd-Level: Beast Master (Young Lion aka Large Cat)
3rd-Level: Celestial Servant (Young Celestial Lion - upgrade to Celestial Servant)
Seasoned:. Beast Master (Size +1 Mature Celestial Lion - upgrade Large Cat to Lion)
5th-Level: Smarts d6

Oh and GM here is a question for you as I overlooked this originally.

What do you include within the Adventurers Kit?

Adventurer's Kit
.. Cost: 50gp
.. Wgt: 10 lbs
.. Notes: Contents are GM's Call

Evesk - in the SW PF Core rules, page 107, it says the Adventurer's Kit contains : Backpack, bedroll, candle, chalk, extra clothing, flint and steel, grappling hook, bullseye lantern, small mirror, hemp rope, oil, shovel, soap, 3 torches, waterskin, whetstone, 1 weeks meals.

I would just stipulate that the rope is 20 feet long instead of 60 feet (to reduce weight to 3 pounds).

I don't know where your reference got their numbers, and I'm not going to worry about any weight or cost discrepancies.

Years ago, when I was playing the real PF, I scoured the web for ideas, and came up with a list of "essential" items. Well, they were more "might come in really handy at some point" items :

Keep in mind, these are PF items, weights, costs, and rules, and I wasn't worrying about their Encumbrance. But feel free to add any *very* lightweight and *very* low-cost items from this list to your backpack, and see how creative with them you can be. ;)