The dino is the best. The tiger is a close 2nd. Wolverine is the best for a tank build. Wolverine + Shifters vigor... lol
Once you get your main form out of the way, there are a lot of interesting secondary ones. Mouse is a great scout, Monkey is great for a form with hands and bat/falcon/owl have flying + good senses.
PS: ah, wild vigor. That makes sense. I wa about to ask what you meant when i saw your second post. ;)
I was having a conversation with a friend about how the Shifter feels to us and we had a eureka moment. The feeling of dissatisfaction reminds of us of the functionality reminds of later introduced 3.5 classes that were playable but completely underwhelming in what they were designed for like the classes out of Tome of Magic or Magic of the Incarnum.
Graystone. In all honesty, I would NOT select dino as the first form. I'd select dino as the second form.
Tiger as the first.
(Except if going lycan)
The reason for this is, is that the dino aspect minor form is absolutely useless.
They really didn't think that through. +2 initiative modifier that lasts minutes per level? Uh huh....
Unless I can use it right as he says, " Roll initiative" then it's useless. It IS a swift action, but not an immediate action. What would you say, Gray?
To be honest, I find the Tiger to be the useless one as it doesn't stack with a dex belt: after a few levels, it's covered full time with the belt. The initiative is useful for ambushes or uses in areas where you KNOW foes are around. Hear goblin voices behind the door, kick it in. Sounds of battle ahead, kick it in. At 1 min/use, that's 3+level times you kick it in so you can feel free to kick it in even if you aren't sure and chimeric aspect lets you add it in when you're using a more useful buff: win/win.
So I'd rather have the dino for a main and maybe toss on the bats extra darkvision or a mouse's evasion as my go to minor. Tiger is great for the first few levels but after that...
Just remember in those situations where you think dino would be useless are the same situations where you DON'T have a Dex buff either. Ambush/surprise/ect, you have base dex: one of the reason you'll still want a belt vs a min/day dex buff. The aspect just isn;t a viable replacement for the belt.
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Ummm. Anyone got info on that Wolfdog?
"To be honest, I find the Tiger to be the useless one as it doesn't stack with a dex belt:"
And? Saves money. We can just use strength belt since strength damage stacks with shifters belt as long as we use dex to attack.
If you don't mind not having the benefit unless you activate it and only for min per day... Myself, I'm not relying on that when a belt is 24hrs/day.
"The initiative is useful for ambushes or uses in areas where you KNOW foes are around."
No it's not. I will use it. It lasts for a MINUTE per level +3 for the ENTIRE DAY.
You didn't read it very well. The duration doesn't need to be continuous and can be used in 1 min increments. That means you wait for the enemies to get within sight, you activate your ability and wait for the signal to attack. There is no "the usage of such an ability must happen immediately before the outcome". We aren't talking about a surprise round but an ambush/raid/ect where you prepare before hand and initiate the encounter.
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LOL I just noticed you can make a traditional anime cat girl for pathfinder now.
Wilding Feat: "Your body might bear animalistic features like beastial ears or a tail."
Glad to see that text made it into the book. Catgirls for everyone! =^_^=
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Glad to see that text made it into the book. Catgirls for everyone! =^_^=LOL I just noticed you can make a traditional anime cat girl for pathfinder now.
Wilding Feat: "Your body might bear animalistic features like beastial ears or a tail."
You've made me very happy! :)
Wow... this book isn't getting the best reception...
Is the Shifter THAT bad of a class? Aren't the archetypes offert some saving grace to it? Is the rest of the book good?
By the looks of it, the Shifter should have gone into playtesting before being released... which is something I thought would happen.
Apparently, the Brawler gains 5 archetypes... and that class got mocked for NOT getting new ones since its released in ACG. How do they fare?
We get a new race as the Vine Leshy, how does it look?
The Wood element for Kineticist made the jump from Golarion exclusive booklet to standard rules, does it get the buff it need?
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Wow... this book isn't getting the best reception...
Is the Shifter THAT bad of a class? Aren't the archetypes offert some saving grace to it? Is the rest of the book good?
By the looks of it, the Shifter should have gone into playtesting before being released... which is something I thought would happen.
Apparently, the Brawler gains 5 archetypes... and that class got mocked for NOT getting new ones since its released in ACG. How do they fare?
We get a new race as the Vine Leshy, how does it look?
The Wood element for Kineticist made the jump from Golarion exclusive booklet to standard rules, does it get the buff it need?
It's really bad. The archetypes don't improve much, but some have great concepts, it's really a waste.
You are right, playtest would have solved all of its problems with ease. My guess is that paizo is displacing resources to starfinder, thus not being able to go through the right process with books like this one.
The brawler gets something: there are a few style feats (some reprints, however), and 5 archetypes - Feral Striker (gets shifter aspects in place of flexibility - bad trade); Living Avalanche (focus on bull rush and overrun); Turfer (a terrain focused one); Venom Fist (trades damage, knockout and close weapon mastery for a poison that deals some weak damage and debilitating conditions); Verdant Grapler (summons vines to bind and damage foes he grappled).
The vine leshy is the race to play if you are a baby groot fan. They are ok, but plant races lost pretty much all of their immunities, which IMO makes no sense, and in my group is unasked for.
The wood element seems playable, the positive energy blast is kind of problematic, but you don't have to take it.
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The Shifter isn’t bad at all, it’s not a supreme master of many forms shapechanger that outdoes the Druid or other Casters in the shapechanging department that can be absolutely anything but the whole of it together makes for a fun and interesting class.
The Shifter isn’t the most versatile, it’s like other Martials, hyper focused.
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You could already be a catgirl in Pathfinder, they are called catfolk;)
The archetypes for the shifter do not impress me at all. Yes I agree the Shifter feels like the rough draft we usually get at a playtest and not the final product.
Vine Leshy
-small
-speed 20ft
-darkvision 60ft
-low-light vision
-pass without trace
-change shape(vines only)
-speak with plants(vines only)
-verdant burst
-unassuming foliage
-climber
-languages(common and sylvan)
The wood element is a reprint from multiple books but finally has their basic kinesis ability in print. Still wish they made it that the positive energy blast could do non-lethal damage to living things or could be used with merciful foliage to do so.
The brawler archetypes seem interesting to especially the one were you get animal aspects and the plant themed grappler.
"To be honest, I find the Tiger to be the useless one as it doesn't stack with a dex belt:"
And? Saves money. We can just use strength belt since strength damage stacks with shifters belt as long as we use dex to attack.
"The initiative is useful for ambushes or uses in areas where you KNOW foes are around."
No it's not. I will use it. It lasts for a MINUTE per level +3 for the ENTIRE DAY.
That means that if I am anticipating enemies around, then enemies don't jump me for 10 minutes? Oh, well, as a level 7, I am now out of aspects. In actuality, according to game time, the usage of such an ability must happen immediately before the outcome. Combat merely slows "time down" so to speak.
But using it will immediately expend it and not be useful at all. For a level 20, lets say, that's 23 minutes of usage.
23 / 960 = 2.3% chance for a FULL USAGE OF THE ASPECT AT LEVEL 20 that it will be active throughout a 16 hour day (providing 8 hours for sleep)
Going to back Verzen up on this one. A bonus to initiative is an out of combat buff and useless for ambushes and a huge waste if you misjudge when you should have activated it. The bonus dex from Tiger aspect is very much a combat buff and since most days only have a few minutes of combat it's almost guaranteed to be up for when you really need it. It lets you put off getting a dex belt so you can afford your AoMF or strength belt or whatever. Then when you can really start affording nice things you can worry about getting a dex belt and using the dino form. IMO at least.
All of the aspects seem like things that should be active all day, though.
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Wow... this book isn't getting the best reception...
Is the Shifter THAT bad of a class? Aren't the archetypes offert some saving grace to it? Is the rest of the book good?
Some people game in certain ways and design their characters accordingly. Others use a different set of values when designing characters. As such, some classes and books are more valuable than others.
Case in point: the Swashbuckler and Summoner. According to many on the boards, the Swashbuckler isn't a good class at all and the Summoner is WAY over powered. Yet in the Skull & Shackles campaign my group finished last year, the Summoner wasn't exceptionally effective and the Swashbuckler was a devastating combatant and our "sure to kill it" PC.
It came down to playing style, optimization techniques, and what people did with what they were given.
Right now the people who aren't happy with the Shifter (ie. the Shifter they have been given is not much like what they thought they were getting) are venting. You'll notice that the majority of the one star reviews are centering on the Shifter class as their primary reason for the low rating. That doesn't mean the book is useless or even bad; they simply aren't happy with what the book has given them beyond a class they don't like.
No, in my opinion the Shifter is NOT that bad a class. Instead of a shape-changing class, we have a class that primarily uses animal traits to augment combat abilities. With the right feats and magic items, it could the perform the role of primary melee combatant in a party easily. It combines monk, ranger, and druid abilities in an interesting manner and can lead to some very intriguing characters.
The archetypes are cool and evocative (elemental, plant, topiary, & fiend forms instead of animal; an ooze form; a lycanthropic form; and a rage form that represents the destructive power of nature) There are some very interesting ideas and characters that can come from them.
As for the rest of the book, well let's see...
By the looks of it, the Shifter should have gone into playtesting before being released... which is something I thought would happen.
This has been discussed to death in other threads and this thread as well, but here is the break down on that: the last few playtests have been little more than dumpster fires.
People unhappy with the class as presented talking about how lazy and uninspired the designers are, can't they see how stupid this choice was, they should put in this super powerful option or the whole class is unplayable, etc., etc., etc.
Effectively the designers had to dig through piles of abuse in order to find small nuggets of genuine, well thought out, constructive criticism. That would have been demoralizing and largely a waste of time. So now they do internal playtesting instead of open and there doesn't seem to be any chance of that changing.
So they DO playtesting; we just don't get to participate anymore. :(
TLDR: This is why we can't have nice things.
Apparently, the Brawler gains 5 archetypes... and that class got mocked for NOT getting new ones since its released in ACG. How do they fare?
Living Avalanche: Essentially a steamroller, able to overrun and bull rush opponents into the turf, eventually including multiple opponents at once. You retain martial flexibility, so this could be a damaging field rearranger.
Turfer: These guys sacrifice maneuver training and knockout to be able to fight exceptionally well on specific favored terrains. Useful in wilderness situations.
Venomfist: Trades knockout and close weapon mastery to add an increasingly dangerous toxin to their unarmed strikes at a cost of slightly less damage. This is a very cool concept and keeps almost all of the the brawler's primary abilities intact.
Verdant Grappler: Uses a connection with plants to create and control entangling and—starting at 5th level—thorny vines that grab those they have in a grapple. Grappler specialization with a plant twist at the cost of close weapon mastery and the 11th level bonus feat. Very cool.
All in all, the archetypes fair well and open up some really neat character designs. I like them, but that is just my opinion. :)
We get a new race as the Vine Leshy, how does it look?
They look cute. They are leshys after all. ;)
They have three archetypes: Herbalist (Alchemist)— Uses herbalism to augment their alchemy and has seedpods they throw instead of bombs.
Plant Speaker (Bard)—Sacrifices bardic knowledge, inspire greatness,
well versed, and lore master to gain special plant communication abilities.
Leshykineticist (Kineticist)—See here.
They also get a subdomain (Leshy) tied to Gozreh and the Green Faith.
Racial Feats include Climbing Vine (get a climb speed), Kudzu Grappler (add blind to the effects you can give to someone you are grappling), Photosythetic healing (use sunlight to heal wounds quickly), and Reactive Reversion (swiftly change back to vine form).
Racial spells are grasping vine (a vine comes out of your body and can act as an extra long appendage) and leshy swarm ( create a swarm of tiny leshys!)
The Wood element for Kineticist made the jump from Golarion exclusive booklet to standard rules, does it get the buff it need?
No real significant changes except that basic phytokinesis is now there.
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@Feros
Thank you ^_^
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I’ve seen the Shifter be good for two people already. One of them just wanted to be able to turn into a wolf. The lycanthrope archetype does a better job of this than existing options at many levels, starting out with large size, giving some bonus abilities, and providing a hybrid form that gets three natural attacks instead of just one. My other friend loves leshies. The group needed a martial character, and the GM approved the Ghoran racial archetype for turning into animal-shaped plant creatures. It fits my friend’s favorite theme, new favorite race, and provides a simpler martial build that gets around the limitations of small size. The only difficulty in choosing was that the book also has a great Leshy Alchemist archetype that my friend also loved.
The book has the first Brawler archetype a friend of mine wants to play, the Venomfist. Getting Con to damage-over-time is really cool, and the high-level effect riders get pretty nasty. Being easy to combine with other archetypes is an added bonus.
The Shifter isn’t bad at all,
it’s not a supreme master of many forms shapechanger that outdoes the Druid or other Casters in the shapechanging department that can be absolutely anything
but the whole of it together makes for a fun and interesting class.
So in your opinion the Shifter isn't bad because, while it's objectively worse at shifting, it's subjectively fun and interesting.
I think that sums up the discussion of the class pretty well from what I've seen in this thread.
Is the Shifter THAT bad of a class?
The class is ok, I just don't think it's the shapeshifting class anyone wanted/expected.
Aren't the archetypes offert some saving grace to it?
They range from good to unusable.
Is the rest of the book good?
Depends. There are some real gems in there, but they are sandwiched between a lot of 'meh' and reprints. If you either don't have the original material or like a reprint to put it all in one place you'll like it better.
Apparently, the Brawler gains 5 archetypes... and that class got mocked for NOT getting new ones since its released in ACG. How do they fare?
Venomfist is interesting.
The Wood element for Kineticist made the jump from Golarion exclusive booklet to standard rules, does it get the buff it need?
Copy/paste.
Going to back Verzen up on this one. A bonus to initiative is an out of combat buff and useless for ambushes and a huge waste if you misjudge when you should have activated it.
I have NO idea why it would be useless in ambushes you make... And I think you hit on a point of WHY you want a belt over the tiger buff. "combat buff" and "a huge waste if you misjudge when you should have activated it." The belt insures that when you need it, you have the buff. You mess up and run out, you're missing an important buff. If you mess up and waste your initiative buff, you aren't as upset and don't have to 'hoard' it for the right time; it's nice to have but if you don't have it, you don't mind.
The bonus dex from Tiger aspect is very much a combat buff and since most days only have a few minutes of combat it's almost guaranteed to be up for when you really need it.
It's total combats, not how long they run. It's also attacks that happen before you can activate your buff. Using the tiger buff instead of a belt leaves you at a disadvantage.
It lets you put off getting a dex belt so you can afford your AoMF or strength belt or whatever.
You can go that route but I want to know that when I need it, my dex buff is going to be active. I don't know that with an aspect with a min/day duration. This is even MORE an issue when you level up and start using multiple aspects. You start using aspect mins for out of combat uses[ dark vision, perception, climb, swim, stealth, scent, ect] and your combat buff time shrinks. Not relying on aspects for your combat buff allows you full access to your non-combat aspects buffs [and you end up with FIVE buffs].
All of the aspects seem like things that should be active all day, though.
It'd be a different conversation if they were. However, since they aren't, I stick with my opinion of them.
The Shifter isn’t bad at all,
it’s not a supreme master of many forms shapechanger that outdoes the Druid or other Casters in the shapechanging department that can be absolutely anything
but the whole of it together makes for a fun and interesting class.
So in your opinion the Shifter isn't bad because, while it's objectively worse at shifting, it's subjectively fun and interesting.
I think that sums up the discussion of the class pretty well from what I've seen in this thread.
“Objectively worse at shifting” is not unilaterally true. For a given form, it is generally a better shifter. There are a few exceptions, like snake’s extremely limited access to poison, but even there you’re getting something else (Combat Reflexes with support for low-Dex builds).
I think a dino lycan will be fun
Now, do you pick elf for the extra speed of the halfling for the extra AC vs large+ creatures? [FCB]
Green Faith Marshal (inquisitor) is it a reprint or a new archetype?
Was removing Plant Immunities from all playable Plant-type PCs really necessary? Discuss here.
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“Objectively worse at shifting” is not unilaterally true. For a given form, it is generally a better shifter. There are a few exceptions, like snake’s extremely limited access to poison, but even there you’re getting something else (Combat Reflexes with support for low-Dex builds).The Shifter isn’t bad at all,
it’s not a supreme master of many forms shapechanger that outdoes the Druid or other Casters in the shapechanging department that can be absolutely anything
but the whole of it together makes for a fun and interesting class.
So in your opinion the Shifter isn't bad because, while it's objectively worse at shifting, it's subjectively fun and interesting.
I think that sums up the discussion of the class pretty well from what I've seen in this thread.
“Objectively worse at shifting”: For variety/types you can shift in, it's clearly true. And druid type wildshape overtakes the shifters animal forms at 8th. The only thing it truly excels at with shifting, is the ease of use. It's IS nice and simple...
Shifters have to compare it's abilities vs a druid's beast shape III, elemental body IV and plant shape III type shifting.
Was removing Plant Immunities from all playable Plant-type PCs really necessary? Discuss here.
No, but that trigger finger gets itchy for the orbital nerf satellite so something had to get obliterated with extreme overcompensation. Measured rebalancing has never been their thing... :P
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As a full martial shapeshifter the Shifter is a lot simpler and requires less setup than other class/Archetypes that make use of prepping with spells/abilities/feats and having to set them up right. It doesn’t have to deal with that. Just shift and start whomping.
So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
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You could already be a catgirl in Pathfinder, they are called catfolk;)Note I said ANIME cat girls. They only have cat ears and tails. ;)
So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
No, it's like we were told we're getting a class that a MASTER of arcane magic: anything we get would/should be compared to current arcane classes, including the wizard.
When you're told the MAIN feature of a class is shifting, I don't think it's out of line to look at classes with shifting as only part of their class and compare: druid doesn't lose to the shifter in shifting AND has spells...
It's only a clear winner in ease of use.
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As a full martial shapeshifter the Shifter is a lot simpler and requires less setup than other class/Archetypes that make use of prepping with spells/abilities/feats and having to set them up right. It doesn’t have to deal with that. Just shift and start whomping.
So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
I think it's more like the Warrior not measuring up to the Fighter.
As a full martial shapeshifter the Shifter is a lot simpler and requires less setup than other class/Archetypes that make use of prepping with spells/abilities/feats and having to set them up right. It doesn’t have to deal with that. Just shift and start whomping.
I'm wondering if the design decision to make it simple is the cause of it being disappointing to some. I personally would have rather had it be more complicated, and fit the bill for a chimeric type shifter (which is what I felt they said it would be).
Same reason I went with Pathfinder when D&D shifted to 4th edition, I wasn't interested in losing flexibility at the expense of ease of character creation......well that's one of several reasons actually :P
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What we are seeing here is a bunch people who wanted an Animorph/Ben10 class which morphs from a tiger into a shark midway through air and didn't get that.
The only thing Paizo should have done better is manage expectations.
..okay NOW i want that class!
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So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
And the complaints that it doesn't measure up to a hunter that goes old yeller on their animal companion?
It also doesn't make sense that the shifter can choose a dinosaur but doesn't even get an aquatic animal option like shark or octopus.
And the complaints that it doesn't measure up to a hunter that goes old yeller on their animal companion?
So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
Wouldn't it be better to compare it to the Hunter's Feral Hunter archetype, rather than the base Hunter? Base Hunter's aspects seem a very unfair comparison, given how many ways it can actually be used.
Honestly though, with the information so far and the way the pitch for the class went, I'm most surprised at Minor Aspects not being all-day passive effects, with Major Aspects being the Minute/Day major effects you can blend into your wildshape forms. That sounds like it would have fit the "chimeric shapeshifting" that was being billed a lot better.
It also doesn't make sense that the shifter can choose a dinosaur but doesn't even get an aquatic animal option like shark or octopus.
It's probably pretty simple to add new aspects though, so a bunch of aquatic forms can be tossed in at any time in the future. The harder sell is taking an aquatic form as one of your limited number of aspects.
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And the complaints that it doesn't measure up to a hunter that goes old yeller on their animal companion?
So far the complaints about the Shifter not measuring up to Druid align with complaints about other classes not measuring up to Wizard. *shrugs*
comparing the whole of classes and the Shifter comes out ahead in my opinion, since without an AC the Hunter gets their Aspect and some spells.
Wouldn't it be better to compare it to the Hunter's Feral Hunter archetype, rather than the base Hunter? Base Hunter's aspects seem a very unfair comparison, given how many ways it can actually be used.
A problem with the archetype is that its not better than going old yeller.
Well let's settle the debate for the Shifter's most ardent defenders.
Is the Shifter a good class?
http://www.strawpoll.me/14377765
Those things never settle anything...
A problem with the archetype is that its not better than going old yeller.
Wouldn't it be better to compare it to the Hunter's Feral Hunter archetype, rather than the base Hunter? Base Hunter's aspects seem a very unfair comparison, given how many ways it can actually be used.
If you're not going to have an animal companion at all via shooting it in the head and leaving it dead, not having the animal companion to begin with is logically better. Feral Hunter also makes it a better comparison to Shifter, as has been mentioned before, as it then would be doing the same sort of thing(s).
Those things never settle anything...
You're right but it's a great way to toss fuel on a fire.
If you're not going to have an animal companion at all via shooting it in the head and leaving it dead, not having the animal companion to begin with is logically better. Feral Hunter also makes it a better comparison to Shifter, as has been mentioned before, as it then would be doing the same sort of thing(s).A problem with the archetype is that its not better than going old yeller.
Wouldn't it be better to compare it to the Hunter's Feral Hunter archetype, rather than the base Hunter? Base Hunter's aspects seem a very unfair comparison, given how many ways it can actually be used.
Logic doesn't always work. The archetype SHOULD be better than going companionless, but isn't. Since going companionless is an option thats what you have to make the comparison to, not an arbitrarily decided worse option.