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Disruptive Stance really needs to be on any "best of Fighter feats" list IMO, since it's pretty much "if you have this and close on a Caster, they have already lost." Bonus points if someone in the party can trip, or you have a reach weapon so even Step doesn't solve it and they're eating at least one Reactive Strike.
Out of combat I'm not sure anything beats Wonder Worker from Thaumaturge, one of the most "wait WHAT" capstones any class gets.
It's cool, but you have to build around it to get the most out of it. Since it requires being legendary in the associated skill. Being a level 20 feat you have very limited time to benefit from it and couple that with the fact that you have Diverse Lore as a level 1 feat....most Thaumaturges I've seen don't invest heavily in any of those knowledge skills, let alone multiple ones.
Although I might be forgetting a bit about how everything works out, you may need to invest in one of the traditions but not multiple.
Agree that action manipulation feats are the most powerful. Thuse for casters:
Patron's Puppet
Cackle
Effortless Concentration
Split Hex
Hex Master
[The witch feats that give a familiar a two action attack, costing the witch one action.]
Spell Combination
Spellshape Mastery
Out of combat I'm not sure anything beats Wonder Worker from Thaumaturge, one of the most "wait WHAT" capstones any class gets.It's cool, but you have to build around it to get the most out of it. Since it requires being legendary in the associated skill. Being a level 20 feat you have very limited time to benefit from it and couple that with the fact that you have Diverse Lore as a level 1 feat....most Thaumaturges I've seen don't invest heavily in any of those knowledge skills, let alone multiple ones.
You get two free boosts to your your choice of the four caster skills, making it relatively cheap to go Legendary in one and get free access to all the 8th level and below spells in that tradition. And then if you have the tome at paragon benefit (which is well worth it) you can pick up a second or third for a day. It's nice flexibility and utility, but you do give up Ubiquitous Weakness (in the unlikely event your level 20 allies don't have ways to trigger strike weaknesses against critical foes) or one of the 18th level feats you don't have.
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The champion gets a pretty nice set of action economy buff feats too.
- Ranged Reprisal (1) lets your Paladin step 1 if necessary to get within reach for retributive strike
- Shield Warden (6) lets you block on behalf of someone else
- Quick Shield Block (8) free reaction each turn for shield block
- Shield of Reckoning (10) lets you use Shield Warden and your champion's reaction on the same trigger as a single reaction
- Divine Reflexes (14) Get an extra reaction every round for your champions' reaction
- Shield Paragon (20) If you have a shield in your hand, it's just always raised.
So by the end, you're getting your raise shield for free, you have one reaction for shield block, one for your champion's reaction, and the third universal reaction that everyone gets that you can use for both.
This all works with weapon-and-shield, doesn't require a stance, doesn't eat your haste slot, and only one of them is a capstone, so it all works together just fine.
Witch capstone gets a HOUSE....AND IT WALKS! It might not be strictly super powerful, but getting a tiny "Howls Moving Castle" is up there in terms of endgame awesomeness. OG witch was a slightly painful proposition to get to that point, but new witch is a journey well worth that destination.
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Oooo, thaumaturge has a feat that fixes my entire problem with PF2E itemization: a lvl 12 thaumaturge can get the feat, intensify investiture, to use magic items with their class DCs instead of the static DC of the item. This turns magic items from "3 lvls of use then turn it into gold" consumables to...actual magic items that can be build defining. It's a shame it's a class locked feat but, in the itemization paradigm that PF2e has, it's an extremely powerful feat (I suppose it's campaign loot dependent, but still).
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Swashbuckler as the best high level feats. A feat like Incredible Luck is just completely out of bounds. There are also excellent feats around Riposte.
Any monk can become a Super Saiyan at lvl 18 with Ki Form! All the DBZ stuff being a la carte feats that you can put ON TOP of whatever else you're doing with your build was a major selling point of PF2E for me. Monk and ranger being competent martials is just awesome in general
Ok ok last one from me: a lvl 20 barbarian can cast earthquake....by stomping the ground ...bc they're THAT angy. Seeing that feat was another one of those moments that made me jump ship from 5e where martials are just sort of superfluous after a certain lvl bc they have to be stuck in a somewhat grounded reality while "casters are supposed to be better, IT'S MAGIC!"
There is a post about how Fighters falling off in power at higher levels and me being the fighter fan that I am my first thought was that fighter high level feats must be some of the most powerful feats in the game at least mechanically speaking.
In terms of pure mechanical strength I would rate feats that improve your action economy as the best in the game and the fighter has probably the most of these in the game,
Boundless reprisals
Weapon supremacy
Improved riposte
Paragon stance
Master of many styles
Tactical reflexes
Quick shield block
Dueling danceSo I was wondering what other class had as good a feat setup as the fighter at high level and are there any feats that are more powerful than action economy ones I mentioned ?
The fighter doesn't fall off in power, they just stay relatively static while others improve.
Boundless reprisals: This feat looks good on paper, but is extremely hard to take advantage of as setting up that many reactions doesn't work great and the value diminishes the fewer targets you have.
Weapon Supremacy: Quickened strike from this feat doesn't stack with haste and at that level haste is extremely easy to come by including group haste. On top of the high MAP penalty diminishing every strike after the second.
Anything that provides Quickened strike doesn't stack with the strike from haste diminishing the value of the feat.
The rest of the feats are build dependent and not particularly great unless you just like what they do within your build.
Design Manager
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Any monk can become a Super Saiyan at lvl 18 with Ki Form! All the DBZ stuff being a la carte feats that you can put ON TOP of whatever else you're doing with your build was a major selling point of PF2E for me. Monk and ranger being competent martials is just awesome in general
(My usual quiet note that I was actually inspired by Bui's battle aura from Yu Yu Hakusho when I wrote the original draft of Ki Form and then Mark saiyaned it up a bit, lol!)
On the main subject, the rogue's Impossible Striker making it so that you basically just get full sneak attack damage all the time at 20th is pretty bonkers, and it's sneakily an action economy enhancer because you don't have to jump through the hoops (easy as they tend to be) of making your target off-guard.
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For simple awesomeness value, the level 18 kineticist impulse list has a lot of bits of pure chuuni joy. "All Shall End In Flames". "Hell of 1,000,000 Needles". "Ignite the Sun". "Ride the Tsunami". "The Shattered Mountain Weeps". They're awesome, evocative names, they all have effects that legitimately feel like they justify the names they were given, and starting at level 19 you can use whichever one you picked every single round if you want to. Indulging in megalomaniacal laughter as a free action is optional.
I mean, it's true. 10th-level spells are straight-up more powerful than anything the Kineticist can throw down. All Shall End In Flames does 15d6 at level 20. Cataclysm does 21d10, over a larger area, with fewer actions. It's not even close. Still, there's something pretty satisfying to being able to throw stuff like that around... whenever, just because. "...and now I'd like to fill that area with horrible flesh-shredding needles."
...but this thread wasn't about that. It wasn't a "how cool is that?" thread. It was a "what is the mechanically most powerful?" I think that the semi-capstone impulses are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure I'd call them "most powerful".
For most powerful feats, I'd have to give a shout-out to swashbuckler's level 10 Derring-Do on a gymnast. Being able to roll twice and take the best on all athletics maneuvers is... a bit unfair.
I also have to bring up the combo of Stumbling Feint and Stunning Fist on the monk. FoB is already pretty nice, but this lets you have a freebie feint check and a chance to stun on top of that... and it's all in the bag by level 6. Poaching the set can get pretty expensive, though.
...oh, and Bleeding Finisher, which is strong enough that it's sometimes seen as a rocket-powered crutch math fix for the swashbuckler. Not particularly poachable, though.
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What are some of the best level 20 feats?
Barbarian
Unstoppable Juggernaut: Ridiculous damage resistance. The level 20 barbarian is absolutely sick. They are a machine of brutal destruction that becomes insanely hard to kill.
With Quick Rage and Devastator, they are are just nasty.
Most of the other level 20 barbarian feats kind are just ok or lame.
Monk
Golden Body: This one is awesome. Obvious no brainer choice if the DM allows it.
Impossible Technique is not bad.
Fuse Stance can be fun if you want to blend a few interesting styles.
Enduring Quickness combined Cloud Leap and monk movement allows you to do build Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon kind of leap around fighter. A great way to kite things.
Magus
Supreme Spellstrike: Recharge spellstrike as a quickened action is insanely good.
Feats that give you useful quickened actions you can't normally do with haste are extremely high value.
Bard
Symphony of the Muses: Absolute game changing feat especially combined with Eternal Composition.
Ultimate Polymath: Access to any spell on any list.
Fatal Aria: Easy way to do 50 point hit on someone for 1 action.
Wizard: If you can tough it out to level 20, the wizard has some great level 20 feats.
Spell Mastery: Even more spells.
Spell Combination: Mega-disintegrate or other great combined spells. One of the best caster feats in the game.
Any extra 10th level slot feat for casters is decent.
Those are some I like off the top of my head.
For classes, the most quality feats are found on the Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard, Druid, Magus, Kineticist, Monk. These classes either have high value feats at nearly every level even if just one (Magus) or an abundance of high quality feats at every level (Rogue).
Most of the other classes have a few here or there and you can fill out with archetypes the rest.
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It's not "powerful" in a damaging sense, but one of the most impactful high level feats at that level of play might be True Perception.
Too bad so few classes qualify (investigator, ranger, rogue, IIRC).
True Perception is awesome. Another feat the rogue can pick up.
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Any monk can become a Super Saiyan at lvl 18 with Ki Form! All the DBZ stuff being a la carte feats that you can put ON TOP of whatever else you're doing with your build was a major selling point of PF2E for me. Monk and ranger being competent martials is just awesome in general(My usual quiet note that I was actually inspired by Bui's battle aura from Yu Yu Hakusho when I wrote the original draft of Ki Form and then Mark saiyaned it up a bit, lol!)
On the main subject, the rogue's Impossible Striker making it so that you basically just get full sneak attack damage all the time at 20th is pretty bonkers, and it's sneakily an action economy enhancer because you don't have to jump through the hoops (easy as they tend to be) of making your target off-guard.
I can dig it! Kuwabara is all I can think about with mindsmith and weapon infusion kineticist
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Out of combat I'm not sure anything beats Wonder Worker from Thaumaturge, one of the most "wait WHAT" capstones any class gets.
As soon as I first read that Feat, all I could think was: oh, that's just another "Alchemist, but better" option. Ugh.
Just for funsies:
[common] The thaumaturge's path culminates with the working of wonders. Once per day, you can align your esoterica to cast a spell of 8th level or lower that takes 1, 2, or 3 actions to cast. The spell must be common or one to which you have access. You can choose a spell of any tradition for which you're legendary in the associated skill (Arcana for arcane, Nature for primal, Occultism for occult, or Religion for divine). Use your thaumaturge class DC in place of any necessary spell DC and your thaumaturge class DC – 10 in place of any necessary counteract modifier or spell attack modifier.
[rare] You have learned hidden secrets, granting you the ability to create alchemy infused with the power of wishes. Once per day when you use advanced alchemy during your daily preparations, you can spend a batch of infused reagents to create a wish vial containing a single common arcane spell of your choice of 8th level or lower. The spell must have a casting time of no more than 3 actions, no Cost, and must be able to target you. Only you can Activate the wish vial, which takes the same number of Interact actions as the spell's casting time and grants you the effects of the spell.
Head to head:
* Alchemist can only pick Arcane, Thaum needs legendary in matching tradition.
* Alchemist must pick the spell during daily prep, Thaum can pick any eligible spell on the spot!
* Alchemist spell targeting is limited to themself!
* Alchemist spell vial is still an item that uses daily reagents, and must be subject item action economy + hands!
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Man, despite Thaum's "one daily spell" Feat being so obviously another iteration of the Alchemist's, Wonder Worker's privilege is a meteor-sized OOF for the Alchemist.
And the rare tag making Wish Alchemy banned by default, even with all the crippling restrictions, is just the cherry atop the s+*#sundae.
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My knowledge of balance is ... average ... but on the handful of occasions across a couple sessions I got to use Plum Deluge (Alchemist's capstone from fists of the ruby phoenix) thanks to a very nice DM, it was disgusting. A dragon failed their save against tears of death, and that was it for them.
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The most powerful feat: Psychic MC dedication.
Plum Deluge + Tears of Death:
Still subject to the issue of "does literally nothing on save". And there's no way around poison immunity.
Aside from that, it is a *very* potent effect that includes a save or suck paralyzed with damage that (kinda) competes with top R spells.
IMO, the largest "oopsie" from the devs is that there is no clause nor restriction that puts the ability on cooldown or effective cooldown. No "once per hour," gained immunity on save, ect.
This means that if foes *can* be poisoned, one big AoE of them will essentially spend every round needing to pass a save to avoid paralysis. It's not like an Alchemist will have any other attacks that can compete with Tears of Death, lol.
Requirements: You have at least three of the same contact poison.
You have learned to saturate an area with poison in imitation of the techniques of your rival, Blue Viper. As part of this ability, you Interact to draw three vials of the same contact poison and throw them in the air, where they shatter and spread a poisonous deluge affecting a 20-foot burst within 60 feet.
All creatures in the burst are automatically exposed to the poison, immediately bypassing any onset time, and must attempt a saving throw against that poison. The three vials must be identical, even if the poison can come in multiple types or different levels.
Onset 1 minute;
Maximum Duration 10 minutes;
Stage 1 20d6 poison damage and paralyzed (1 round);
Stage 2 22d6 poison damage and paralyzed (1 minute);
Stage 3 24d6 poison damage and paralyzed (1 minute)
A fun note is that one use of that Feat + item is 36,000 gp worth of poison. Meanwhile, R 10 magic scrolls are 8,000 gp.
A L20 Toxicologist could do that Plum Deluge action at least 22 times per day if their INT was +2 and they spent all 22 reagents making batches of T o D poison.
I think my favourite high-level Alchemist Feat is Extend Elixir at Level 12. Man, I hope it survives the Remaster intact.
Putting aside the Remaster, consider what my Mutagenist would be capable of at L12 with that Feat based on the current rules. 15 Batches of Reagents (Norm is unusually low Int.) He can easily be on Greater Cheetah's Elixir, Moderate Bravo's Brew, and Moderate Eagle-Eye Elixir for eight hours a day... 6 Batches. Greater Antidote? 1 Batch for 24 hours.
And then later on there's Eternal Elixir and Improbable Elixirs which allows for fun stuff like being permanently Quickened, and you could use Combine Elixirs to add in something like permanent Flight, or maybe permanent fast healing or things like that.
Man, why can't it be August already? I want to know which of my plans for high-level Alchemist play are still valid...
For simple awesomeness value, the level 18 kineticist impulse list has a lot of bits of pure chuuni joy. "All Shall End In Flames". "Hell of 1,000,000 Needles". "Ignite the Sun". "Ride the Tsunami". "The Shattered Mountain Weeps". They're awesome, evocative names, they all have effects that legitimately feel like they justify the names they were given, and starting at level 19 you can use whichever one you picked every single round if you want to. Indulging in megalomaniacal laughter as a free action is optional.
I mean, it's true. 10th-level spells are straight-up more powerful than anything the Kineticist can throw down. All Shall End In Flames does 15d6 at level 20. Cataclysm does 21d10, over a larger area, with fewer actions. It's not even close. Still, there's something pretty satisfying to being able to throw stuff like that around... whenever, just because. "...and now I'd like to fill that area with horrible flesh-shredding needles."
...but this thread wasn't about that. It wasn't a "how cool is that?" thread. It was a "what is the mechanically most powerful?" I think that the semi-capstone impulses are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure I'd call them "most powerful".
For most powerful feats, I'd have to give a shout-out to swashbuckler's level 10 Derring-Do on a gymnast. Being able to roll twice and take the best on all athletics maneuvers is... a bit unfair.
I also have to bring up the combo of Stumbling Feint and Stunning Fist on the monk. FoB is already pretty nice, but this lets you have a freebie feint check and a chance to stun on top of that... and it's all in the bag by level 6. Poaching the set can get pretty expensive, though.
...oh, and Bleeding Finisher, which is strong enough that it's sometimes seen as a rocket-powered crutch math fix for the swashbuckler. Not particularly poachable, though.
On the that's crazy side of the kineticist side while a single usage of their crazy anime attacks are less potent than a level 10 spell they can keep doing them ALL DAY LONG. Just power level over 9000 nonsense all day every day. Even their lower level powers are hilarious. Imma block your attack by suddenly sprouting a tree to block it. Most magic users leave devastation after a fight where a wood kineticist leaves reforestation behind to the point druids have to be big fans of a guy who can beat the baddies and grow a forest at the same time.
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On the that's crazy side of the kineticist side while a single usage of their crazy anime attacks are less potent than a level 10 spell they can keep doing them ALL DAY LONG. Just power level over 9000 nonsense all day every day. Even their lower level powers are hilarious. Imma block your attack by suddenly sprouting a tree to block it. Most magic users leave devastation after a fight where a wood kineticist leaves reforestation behind to the point druids have to be big fans of a guy who can beat the baddies and grow a forest at the same time.
Yeah... Timber Sentinel in particular can just trivialize certain kinds of fights. Sure, there are ways to work around it, but when the GM has to meta against a lvl 1 feat, that's a thing.
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I really don't think capstones feats are anywhere close to good. A feat that you will never use is not a good feat. For me, the best feats are accessible.
For example:
Sudden Charge: So common on every Barbarian/Fighter.
Timber Sentinel
Psychic MC (I agree with the X)
Diverse Lore: Broken
Spirit/Stitched Familiar
Debilitating Dichotomy
Reflexive Strike
You have also feats that give Class Features, like:
Champion's Reaction
Devise a Stratagem
You also need to separate the types of feats, for example for skill feats:
Battle Medicine
Scare to Death
There's also a question about what I call "enablers", feats that support some playstyles that don't work without the feat. For example Double Slice.
So, overall, the question has truckload of good answers.
On the that's crazy side of the kineticist side while a single usage of their crazy anime attacks are less potent than a level 10 spell they can keep doing them ALL DAY LONG. Just power level over 9000 nonsense all day every day. Even their lower level powers are hilarious. Imma block your attack by suddenly sprouting a tree to block it. Most magic users leave devastation after a fight where a wood kineticist leaves reforestation behind to the point druids have to be big fans of a guy who can beat the baddies and grow a forest at the same time.Yeah... Timber Sentinel in particular can just trivialize certain kinds of fights. Sure, there are ways to work around it, but when the GM has to meta against a lvl 1 feat, that's a thing.
Yeah I'm baffled this doesn't even have Overflow or something on it. Just "I can spam this spell infinitely with it auto-heightening" vs how limited it is for an actual spellcaster trying to use it.
Yeah I'm baffled this doesn't even have Overflow or something on it. Just "I can spam this spell infinitely with it auto-heightening" vs how limited it is for an actual spellcaster trying to use it.On the that's crazy side of the kineticist side while a single usage of their crazy anime attacks are less potent than a level 10 spell they can keep doing them ALL DAY LONG. Just power level over 9000 nonsense all day every day. Even their lower level powers are hilarious. Imma block your attack by suddenly sprouting a tree to block it. Most magic users leave devastation after a fight where a wood kineticist leaves reforestation behind to the point druids have to be big fans of a guy who can beat the baddies and grow a forest at the same time.Yeah... Timber Sentinel in particular can just trivialize certain kinds of fights. Sure, there are ways to work around it, but when the GM has to meta against a lvl 1 feat, that's a thing.
It's utility drops in a wide variety of situations and quite honestly your losing what makes the class unique spamming it.
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It's utility drops in a wide variety of situations and quite honestly your losing what makes the class unique spamming it.
Yes. That's part of the problem... because while there are a bunch of situations here it's less useful, there are a bunch of situations where "spam Timber Sentinel (and also fire off an elemental blast each round or something)" is both "somewhat overpowered cheese" and "losing what makes the class unique". It's... kind of like Starlit Span optimization.
That's not great.
I guess for me, I am most interested in feats that just let you completely break the typical limits of the game in interesting ways.
Conceal spell is probably the most powerful feat post remaster, depending on how a GM runs the subtle trait and whether you can now cast spells silently without ever even having to make stealth checks.
Nonlethal spell is incredibly undervalued in any campaign where casters might need not kill everyone they encounter.
Kip up is a feat that should really be built in to more high level NPCs that have the acrobatics for it. It is a tactical game changer.
Foil senses and terrain stalker are two pretty big game changers too.
Streetwise is incredibly valuable on INT casters who want to be of any help gathering information about up coming challenges and even NPCs and dungeons.
If a campaign has retraining time, linguist can let you flex your languages around in the transition between books which can be clutch for diplomacy but also for language dependent spells and being able to read/interact with signs in strange places.
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Swashbuckler has amazing high level feats, the core chassis of the class just makes it so they don't add up like fighter feats do.
Ranger high level stealth feats are great but again the core chassis doesn't add up like fighter does.
Champion is similar to fighter, you can actually build up to an amazing defender with interesting effects. Hopefully we get more ways to expand the reactions to make different playstyles.
If monk mixed styles gets a lower level in PC2 then I think that would open up a lot of great ways to build up to greatness. Getting master of many styles early would be fantastic as well.
I think these tend to feel good because they specialize in something, and that seems to be curtailed a lot in PF2.
Swashbuckler has pretty good feats. Main problem is their panache mechanic can really short circuit the class. Their high level feats are definitely good, especially Perfect Finisher.
In terms of pure mechanical strength I would rate feats that improve your action economy as the best in the game and the fighter has probably the most of these in the game
As opposed to improving the effectiveness of you actions? Yes I largely agree. The system limit of only having a few types of bonuses and penalties means that you can only improve the effectiveness of actions by so much.
Improving your action economy can be done in many ways:
Actions that are done for free or extra actions in a bundle
Getting around MAP to make your second and third actions more useful
Making your reaction into something effective
Gaining more actions/reactions
So I was wondering what other class had as good a feat setup as the fighter at high level?
Fighter is the best otherwise:
Champion has a bit.Swashbuckler. But they are hampered a bit by the action costs of gaining panache.
Caster wise it is fairly standard apart from Bard which gets some action compression in Lingering Composition.
are there any feats that are more powerful than action economy ones I mentioned ?
There are some in archetypes. Mature Animal Companions used as mounts, Flurry of Blows from monk is available at level 10, Tiller's Aid from Bellflower Tiller.
There are a few other things like SpellStrike and Sure Strike to consider.
Swashbuckler has pretty good feats. Main problem is their panache mechanic can really short circuit the class. Their high level feats are definitely good, especially Perfect Finisher.
I am really curious about the remaster swashbuckler they felt really close before but some stuff just didn't quiet gel.
Swashbuckler has pretty good feats. Main problem is their panache mechanic can really short circuit the class. Their high level feats are definitely good, especially Perfect Finisher.I am really curious about the remaster swashbuckler they felt really close before but some stuff just didn't quiet gel.
I agree. About all they need is a panache generation fix to make it more reliable and that class should be good to go.
Swashbuckler damage will still be low before they get striking runes, but being weak early on is something surmountable if later on they really get going.
I hope they stick the landing with Swashbuckler, it is such a cool class fantasy and the mechanical niche has always been super interesting, just held back by how feast or famine panache is. Bravado is a really promising trait, but it won't mean much if the feats with it suck.
Due to swash weapons their damage will always be low, even on turns where I was hitting with a finisher every round it was just alright.
Changing reflexive repost/inexhaustible counter moves to work with any class feat like Cheat death or RS and add some new reactions would help put them up with fighter and champion of being able to build for interesting reactions that you can make play styles around. A bravado reaction would be great for builds trying to get the optimal two attacks per round.
I feel swash and monk could turn out much more useful with the right changes. Here's hoping.
Summoners have great ways to interact with action economy and can build for different things so long as you understand you can't pickup out of class things for your eidolon.
Thaums seem like they can build up to very different play styles depending on implements. Haven't seen any in higher play though.