Senior Developer
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Hi all!
While the time for battles will soon be upon us (in the form of the Battlecry! sourcebook, releasing GenCon 2025), let's honor the rules of war in these forums for the playtest. Everyone's going to have their own opinions about the classes, so please respect that and do your best to make this a place for measured discussions and civil discourse.
Thanks for participating in the Battlecry! playtest!
Both of these look so awesome on a brief lookthrough, cannot wait until I am done with work so I can go through them more in depth!
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I grabbed the PDF about as soon as it dropped.
I would love to do the same, but I am not seeing where to get them from.
I was expecting something to show up on the Blog or Pathfinder homepage.
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+1 for "there REALLY needs to be a link to the playtest on the main Paizo and/or Pathfinder page(s)."
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I said it in the Commander forum, but think it applies to both somewhat. PLEASE remember Kineticists when building these and future classes. Since their blasts are not strikes or spells, many of the feats and abilities don't do much for them.
My Kineticists wants to be part of the squad too. Perhaps rewarding many of these to say "single action attacks..." to include them as well as any future class that uses similar mechanics.
P.S. overall well done, these classes are awesome!
So far the new classes look pretty video gamey, although I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
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The only issue I can think of there, is "single action attacks" might open the door for things like Shove, disarm, trip, etc which all have the attack trait, as well as any one action feats that have the attack trait.
That is a good point. While I don't really see an issue so much with Shove, Disarm, Trip, Grab, having any 1 action feat with the attack trait is rather open ended.
It just feels like Paizo painted themselves into a corner with the classification of Kinetic Blasts for any future synergy with classes like this. It just feels bad to think that (IMO) one of the best classes in the game, can't play nice with the likes of a Commander.
Hoping somebody smarter than me can figure out a way to make it mechanically work, so that this class isn't excluded, and so they have the option to do a future class similar to Kineticist that doesn't use strikes or spells can be done without worry for compatibility issues.
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Design Manager
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Hoping somebody smarter than me can figure out a way to make it mechanically work, so that this class isn't excluded, and so they have the option to do a future class similar to Kineticist that doesn't use strikes or spells can be done without worry for compatibility issues.
We're definitely looking into it, and have a couple ideas we're tinkering with to look at increasing compatibility without needing to do bespoke callouts for the kineticist in every tactic.
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Alright, let’s get starting on my regular “First Impressions” post.
“You might hold yourself to an incredibly high standard of personal responsibility, chastising yourself for small mistakes that others don’t even notice.” Man, that speaks to my OCD. That said, I would just suggest that you maaaaybe not put THAT as the first entry in the “You Might…” section. Feels like it starts it off on the wrong foot.
EDIT: Actually, looking back through other classes’ “You Might…” entries, and none have anything quite as obviously negative as this particular thing on the Commander (with the possible exception of the exemplar’s “Feel the weight of immense expectations and obligation”), and definitely not as the first bullet point.
Aaaand the flavor of the Commander sent me down a rabbit hole of Go, shogi, and other ancient strategy games, haha.
Holy crap! Trained in ALL armors?! Didn’t expect that.
Huh. So the commander just gets the Cavalier’s Banner feat. Interesting that Cavalier’s Banner is a circumstance bonus while the commander’s Banner is a status bonus. I…kinda agree with that, because the Cavalier’s Banner costs a feat, so it should be a slight bit more powerful (since it stacks with stuff like courageous anthem). Also, I’m still trying to figure out how you can feasibly attach a banner to a weapon or shield and still be able to use it properly. I know it was for balancing so one of the commander’s hands isn’t always wasted on holding a flagpole, but it’s still weird.
Huh. So the commander prepares tactics similarly to a wizard preparing spells, save that the commander can swap them out with 10 minutes. 2+Int allies that can be drilled in your tactics is a bit interesting, because even if you only accept the class’s attribute boost to Int, you still have enough for a standard adventuring party (since you’re not your own “ally”). Gives a good buffer for familiars or random important NPCs.
“…a character cannot respond to more than one tactic per round.”
In the banner trait, you should also add “or wielding a shield the banner is attached to.”
Once per round you can give an ally a reaction that can only be used to fulfill a tactic. Interesting.
HOLY CRAP! Warfare Lore auto-scales, can be used to recall mechanical stuff about monsters, and can be used for initiative for non-ambush scenarios?! That’s…Wow. I’m unsure if that’s interesting or overpowered, but I’m kinda here for it!
Hmm. Calling the “become an expert in weapons” class feature “Military Expertise” seems…odd. When I read that I was honestly expecting an increase to class DC.
Master in Perception at 13? With the exception of barbarian, that’s the latest for anyone who starts off as expert in Perception.
Mountaineering Training and Naval Training letting you use Warfare Lore in place of Athletics to Climb and Swim, respectively, is very interesting.
Oh damn. End It! is really interesting. A good tactic for a mook battle that makes dealing with a large group more manageable. Plus makes for a good opportunity for Reactive Strikers when the enemy flees.
Okay, Pincer Attack’s wording is weird. So if a squadmate ends adjacent to a creature, is that creature off-guard to THAT squadmate, or just everyone else? RAI I’m guess it’s the first interpretation, but the wording makes it ambiguous. EDIT: Rereading how pincer maneuvers work, it probably makes the most sense for Pincer Attack to work for people OTHER than the one who moved adjacent, since it’s all about overwhelming the enemy from two sides.
Reload! is really niche, since it doesn’t let YOU reload as well, but in a campaign like Outlaws of Alkenstar where guns are prevalent, it’s really useful. I’m curious if allowing other reload-type-actions (like a Slinger’s Reload) would be too overpowered. Not sure.
Okay, Shields Up! is weird. That should definitely also allow casters to cast shield. Also, why is it that Raise a Shield is a reaction, but using a parry weapon is a free action??? It feels like it should either be the other way around (to save a reaction to allow Shield Block) or just one or the other.
A lot of tactics also has the banner trait when it…doesn’t make sense. If all of the ones that said “affected by your commander’s banner” had the trait, I’d understand, but some don’t, and some that DO have that wording don’t have the banner trait. It’s really all-over-the-place.
Re: Piranha Assault: Ignore resistance equal to your LEVEL?! I was expecting at least half-level! Though it is one of your very few tactics, so I guess that makes sense.
…Why is Stupefying Raid’s stupefied condition an emotion and fear effect? That doesn’t make any sense. It’s just confusing the enemy, not making them scared.
Yeah, it feels like the emotion/fear thing should have been attached to the Demoralizing Charge save.
HOLY CRAP! Ready, Aim, Fire! is so good! Swap to a ranged weapon, Interact to reload it, then Strike to fire! AND it can be used to cast a ranged cantrip instead?! Interestingly, though, is that the activity interacts weirdly with ignition since that technically has a range of 30 feet, but can be used in melee, which goes against the flavor of Ready, Aim, Fire! That said, though, I’d still probably allow the melee version if only for the pun (since it’s a fire spell).
And again, the Special entry in Ready, Aim, Fire! implies that Shields Up!
Hmm…Maaaaybe allow a free Interact to reload for Executioner’s Volley (since it can’t be combined with Reload! since squadmates can only benefit from one tactic per turn), but I could also kinda see the balance with not allowing that, since this tactic does A LOT.
On Valkyrie’s Charge, maybe specify that the Stand and the double Stride are free actions. Also, it should have the wording of “This effect draws upon your allies’ morale and adrenaline and has no effect when used outside of combat.” thing from Rallying Banner to explain WHY you just healed each ally 80 HP.
Y’know, I actually like Deceptive tactics. Really makes sense to replace the combat-oriented Deception actions with Warfare Lore.
Plant Banner lets the area become larger by turning it into a burst?! Hmm…Lemme do some quick math. Wait. No duh a 30 foot emanation is technically larger than a 30-foot burst; it has an extra [CREATURE’S SIZE] feet to its diameter. That said, the extra 10 feet from Plant Banner does help since it doesn’t move with you. And it does reinforce Paizo not wanting to use emanations around a space that doesn’t have a necessary, movable token (though they did break this with the empyreal dragon’s Direct Halo).
EDIT: Wait, why DOESN’T Plant Banner have the banner trait????
Oooohhh. Adaptive Stratagem is gooood! Replacing a tactic when you roll initiative is NICE! Though, that also feels like it will become the must-take feat for commanders. EDIT: I stand corrected. Rapid Assessment letting you Recall Knowledge as you roll initiative is also really nice.
Okay, Banner Twirl is funny. Though I’m wondering why the concealment is only limited to ranged attacks. Probably balance, but I’ve seen some massive banners where that kind of twirl would definitely make it harder to hit in melee.
WHOA! A follow-up feat to Combat Assessment that lets you gain the circumstance bonus on a non-crit?! AND doubles it ON a crit!?
Yo. Shielded Recovery letting you use Battle Medicine with both hands full is sweet!
Hmm. Why does Unsteadying Strike not apply the penalty to their Reflex saves against Trip. If it’s “unsteadying” then it would make sense that they’re off-kilter enough to be susceptible to falling. Plus it’s the only applicable Athletics maneuver it DOESN’T apply to.
Whoa. Defiant Banner giving resistance to non-bleed physical damage is really nice! Especially for a non-tactic action.
*Reads the first bit of Officer’s Education* Wow. This really sucks for a level 8 class feat, since that’s just something a human gets as an ancestry feat.
*Continues reading* Oh. Two trained skills, become an expert in one skill, learn a language, and get a level 3 or lower general feat?! AND you can take it two more times?! Wow, uh…Nope, that’s a good feat.
Hot damn, Unrivaled Analysis letting you Recall Knowledge FOUR TIMES as you roll initiative?!
Oh, interesting. A commander animal companion gains the “takes an action when you don’t command it” thing when it becomes nimble/savage instead of mature. But the mature one instead will never attack you, even if magically compelled. That’s breaking the mold quite a bit, but I kinda like it.
So with Targeting Strike, the Guiding Shot automatically grants the +2 from a crit? So Targeting Strike makes Guiding Shot not do anything additional on a crit. I’m not necessarily complaining, but it’s still a bit weird.
…Attack an opponent and give the next person to attack them advantage?! Jeeeeez!
SIX RECALL KNOWLEDGES WHEN YOU ROLL INITIATIVE?!?!?
Oh. Desperate Resuscitation is really weird, since it means it applies all the penalties from raise dead. Also…why can the commander get this activity two levels earlier than the medic? And doesn’t have to be legendary in Medicine to use it? It feels like the dedicated Medicine archetype should be better at this than the commander.
The commander can just give haste to everyone within 30 feet as a single action once per 10 minutes?!
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Oh, only for a round. My bad.
Okay, the wording of Confusing Commands with who it targets implies that it only affects enemies who are benefiting from your banner, which is obviously not what it means.
Wow. Demand Surrender is just…so good against mooks. Though it does create weird story stuff for if a creature is, say, magically controlled to attack to the death or surrendering is detrimental to them or something.
Whoa. Glorious Banner doing all of that PLUS increasing the area of the banner is ridiculously good!
Pennant of Victory gives a +4 status bonus to attack AND damage!? As a single action?! I know it’s only one round, but daaaang!
Wow, uh…This is good. This is really really good. I want to play this class immediately. My only complaint is that the usage of the banner trait is really inconsistent and needed another proofread. And, once again, an under-utilization of Int as a key ability score over, say, Str or Dex.
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Senior Developer
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Jason where do I do load the PDF? Do you know if Pathbuilder is going to put the two classes up?
Link in the blog post!
I don't know about Pathbuilder, but Demiplane and Foundry will be supporting the playtest as of today!
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Would you want either class to be in a group, or would both work best? What kind of group mix would be best? How would these classes play with Gunslingers?
A dedicated Commander can give any Gunslingers in the party 33% more attacks by letting them reload as a reaction.
Really hoping Commander gets extended in a major way, the foundation is good but I really think it's 1/3rd of a great class as of now, limiting it too only INT feels very strange, I think a subclass system that would allow it to pick it's "Command Style" and use other abilities to lead would be fantastic and open it up for a much more varied amount of play styles and character types.
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So I love the idea of the tactics, but I'm not 100% sold on the execution, especially for the later game ones.
The level 1 and 7 tactics seem like neat things that can do when their use-case comes up.
The level 15 tactics, on read, just kinda feel like the best things the character could be doing on almost every round of combat for the rest of that character's existence.
Like, both Demoralizing Charge and Ready, Aim, Fire! seem like such massive boosts to the party's action economy that you'd be literally gimping yourself by doing anything else. They read as massively strong, to the point of sucking out the creativity of the 3-action system from the class.
It's almost the Wizard problem where if you're not casting a spell most turns, you're being ineffective, and if you are, you really only get 1 action with which to be creative with. At least the wizard has the option of which spell to cast. The Commander already made the choice of which Master Tactic to learn.
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If your party members aren't usually using ranged weapons, Ready, Aim, Fire! requires them to use attacks that aren't their best and leaves them with those weapons out.
If they are using ranged weapons, they won't actually use all of the extra actions because they already have them out and possibly loaded (or don't need to load).
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Guardian has 2 subclasses that are called as Threat Technique, Ferocious Vengeance and Mitigate Harm. They just don't have other things interacting with it like happens in many other classes that's probably why you didn't notice.
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Thanks for the replies!
Ok, how do y'all see the first three rounds of combat unfolding for a low level party consisting of a Commander, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Cleric in a dungeon setting? I am thinking of either Abomination Vaults or Burnt Offerings/Seven Dooms. Assume standard subclasses and typical equipment. Feel free to substitute the Fighter with a Rogue if y'all think that might change the dynamic. I'm interested in both general tactics and specific abilities they might prioritize.
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We're definitely looking into it, and have a couple ideas we're tinkering with to look at increasing compatibility without needing to do bespoke callouts for the kineticist in every tactic.
Hoping somebody smarter than me can figure out a way to make it mechanically work, so that this class isn't excluded, and so they have the option to do a future class similar to Kineticist that doesn't use strikes or spells can be done without worry for compatibility issues.
That was my one gripe with the kineticist design. I had a really cool idea for a follower of Ragathiel that was at a base a fire kineticist, with a champion dedication. I liked the image of a man in heavy armor summoning a blade of fire to smite his enemies, but there is zero rules support for it, unfortunately.
I'm looking forward to seeing if the increased compatibility for the commander will open up any further options playing with the Kineticist base.
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Guardian has 2 subclasses that are called as Threat Technique, Ferocious Vengeance and Mitigate Harm. They just don't have other things interacting with it like happens in many other classes that's probably why you didn't notice.
I think the real reason *nobody* noticed is that the ability Threat Technique a) isn’t developed enough to be called a subclass and b) some folks have suggested that a Guardian should be able to utilise both.
Yes, Threat Technique does look like available real estate for Instinct or Racket style subclasses. But currently it looks completely anemic and tacked on, and doesn’t really provide a lot of “differentiation” between Guardians.
I made a Guardian: Threat Technique thread in case you are a) interested and b) want to not clutter this thread.
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The only issue I can think of there, is "single action attacks" might open the door for things like Shove, disarm, trip, etc which all have the attack trait, as well as any one action feats that have the attack trait.That is a good point. While I don't really see an issue so much with Shove, Disarm, Trip, Grab, having any 1 action feat with the attack trait is rather open ended.
It just feels like Paizo painted themselves into a corner with the classification of Kinetic Blasts for any future synergy with classes like this. It just feels bad to think that (IMO) one of the best classes in the game, can't play nice with the likes of a Commander.
Hoping somebody smarter than me can figure out a way to make it mechanically work, so that this class isn't excluded, and so they have the option to do a future class similar to Kineticist that doesn't use strikes or spells can be done without worry for compatibility issues.
IIRC Attack roll would cover Strikes, spell attacks and impulse attacks while excluding skill checks such as Shove, Trip ... like it does in Courageous Anthem.
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I said it in the Commander forum, but think it applies to both somewhat. PLEASE remember Kineticists when building these and future classes. Since their blasts are not strikes or spells, many of the feats and abilities don't do much for them.
My Kineticists wants to be part of the squad too. Perhaps rewarding many of these to say "single action attacks..." to include them as well as any future class that uses similar mechanics.
P.S. overall well done, these classes are awesome!
The better solution is perhaps to allow Weapon Infusion to be counted as Strikes.
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I just discovered I had posted my feedback in the wrong forum. Reposting here for better visibility.
I played a Guardian today in a Pathfinder Society scenario. In the only combat, my character would have dropped in the first round if not for Orc Ferocity. I used a reaction to Intercept Strike from the enemy for the squishy witch, taking half of my HP before I even had a chance to act. Then, I drew my weapon, stepped into combat, and used Taunt. The creature focused all of his attacks on me (which IS the role of this class!), but would have dropped me if not for Orc Ferocity. I never got a chance to Raise Shield, so no Shield Block reaction.
The Taunt ability makes an enemy focus on you... but that +2 means an increased chance in critical hits, something the Guardian just doesn't have the hit points to absorb. And Armor Critical Specialization barely came into play; at 1st level, I could afford a chainmail shirt and shield at best (not that the shield did me much good). The ACS for chain only reduces damage from CRITICAL HITS, meaning it didn't do much for the two of three attacks that hit me. And Mitigate Harm barely helped, feeling too weak at this level to be effective.
As for suggestions, I would make the following:
1) Make this a CON-based class. It needs HP to be effective in the role it is supposed to fill. It isn't much of an attacker, and will fall behind the Fighter soon enough (which I am okay with). Focusing on CON means a more robust HP pool and Fortitude save.
2) Raise the HP. A viable argument can be made that this class needs HP more than any other. Raising the HP to 12 wouldn't make this class unstoppable; it will (likely) be taking a LOT of critical hits.
3) Change Taunt from a 1-action activity to a Stance. Having to Taunt every round to insure the enemy focuses on you is an action tax the class cannot afford. Having it as a Stance means it get entered once at the beginning of combat, only being reused if that combatant drops, much like the Ranger's Hunt Prey ability.
4) If you aren't going to change the HP, then the ability to mitigate damage needs a huge buff. As it is, it barely matters at low levels, meaning a player will get bored and abandon this class before it gets interesting.
5) This class relies a LOT on reactions. Without a Commander to grant additional ones, Intercept Strike falls flat very quickly. And making the player chose between that or Shield Block is even worse. IF anything, it feels like a Guardian should have one free extra reaction to do either of those each round. It would also free up a Guardian to potentially use Reactive Shield or potentially, Attack of Opportunity (not granted to the class, I know). Personally, I would NEVER choose Reactive Shield as a feat for this class, knowing the Guardian is based on having reactions to prevent damage to allies.
I know this comes across very critical of the class. I'm not gonna lie; I was skeptical of how this would act in actual play. Having played a few Champions, I was interested in seeing how this stacked up. But I decided to play it out, to see if my fears were unfounded. As written, I now have no fear that the Champion would still reign in the "tank" niche for PF2. I would also have no desire to play this class either, as currently written.
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The better solution is perhaps to allow Weapon Infusion to be counted as Strikes.I said it in the Commander forum, but think it applies to both somewhat. PLEASE remember Kineticists when building these and future classes. Since their blasts are not strikes or spells, many of the feats and abilities don't do much for them.
My Kineticists wants to be part of the squad too. Perhaps rewarding many of these to say "single action attacks..." to include them as well as any future class that uses similar mechanics.
P.S. overall well done, these classes are awesome!
This would be my solution. Kind of a pseudo Kinetic Knight from 1e...